Path of the Totem Warrior: Spider

[Segev]

Something that a silly character concept gave me the idea for. I'd actually prefer to have the climb speed in the third level ability slot, but I don't think swapping the two would work very well. Third level powers are combat, sixth level are utility. I'm open to counterpoints or suggestions, though.

Spider Totem Spirit
Third Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

While you're raging, you can apply poison to your weapons as a bonus action. If you have no other source, you can use your own saliva, which (while you're raging) is an injection poison with a Constitution save DC of 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier, and does 1d4 poison damage on a failed save. At 9th level, this improves to a d6. At 16th level, it becomes a d8.

Aspect of the Spider
Sixth Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

You gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition, and a climb speed equal to your jump speed. You are unhindered by webs, and can sense the exact location of any creature in contact with any web you are touching.

Totemic Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

When you rage, you may cast web without an action or components. It persists without Concentration for the duration of your rage, and you may begin Concentration on it when your rage ends to extend its duration for as long as you maintain Concentration, up to an hour. The DC to resist this spell is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier.

[Lvl45DM!]

Something that a silly character concept gave me the idea for. I'd actually prefer to have the climb speed in the third level ability slot, but I don't think swapping the two would work very well. Third level powers are combat, sixth level are utility. I'm open to counterpoints or suggestions, though.

Spider Totem Spirit
Third Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

While you're raging, you can apply poison to your weapons as a bonus action. If you have no other source, you can use your own saliva, which (while you're raging) is an injection poison with a Constitution save DC of 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier, and does 1d4 poison damage on a failed save. At 9th level, this improves to a d6. At 16th level, it becomes a d8.

Aspect of the Spider
Sixth Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

You gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition, and a climb speed equal to your jump speed. You are unhindered by webs, and can sense the exact location of any creature in contact with any web you are touching.

Totemic Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

When you rage, you may cast web without an action or components. It persists without Concentration for the duration of your rage, and you may begin Concentration on it when your rage ends to extend its duration for as long as you maintain Concentration, up to an hour. The DC to resist this spell is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier.

Third level ability is pretty weak damage for granting a save, especially since poison is the weakest damage type. I'd either nix the save or up the base damage to d6.

Sensing the exact location of any creature in contact with a web is perhaps the most useless ability ever. How often are you and an enemy in a web? then how often is that enemy hard to see?
Maybe make it so he can't be disarmed, cos his spider hairs cling to his weapon?

Casting web without an action seems super broken, especially since theres no limit on useage. Can he cast infinite webs per round? 1 web a round would be too strong i think. Consider making it 1/long rest or 1/rage at most.

[Segev]

Thanks for the feedback!

The intent on the web was that it happens in the moment you rage, not that you can spam them. So once per rage.

You would need to set up use of webbing for web sense to be useful, yeah. Could work with an allied caster or a tamed giant spider, but that doesn’t make it much better.

More damage or no save is possible. Or maybe a rider effect. Poisoned condition, as a starter? Spider poison tends to have a paralysis rider, but only when the victim is reduced to zero hit points. Less than useful for a PC under most circumstances.

[Lvl45DM!]

Thanks for the feedback!

The intent on the web was that it happens in the moment you rage, not that you can spam them. So once per rage.

You would need to set up use of webbing for web sense to be useful, yeah. Could work with an allied caster or a tamed giant spider, but that doesn’t make it much better.

More damage or no save is possible. Or maybe a rider effect. Poisoned condition, as a starter? Spider poison tends to have a paralysis rider, but only when the victim is reduced to zero hit points. Less than useful for a PC under most circumstances.

Ahh. Maybe saying like "When you activate your rage" or something. What you have is technically correct but a bit confusing.

A rider effect of...applying the poisoned condition? Just off the top of my head lol.

Ok my idea for improving the 6th level thing. Maybe granting immunity to being restrained?

And dont you need a 10th level ability? Grant them a poisonous bite as a reaction, or upgrade their poison to paralysis on hit?

[Segev]

Ahh. Maybe saying like "When you activate your rage" or something. What you have is technically correct but a bit confusing.

A rider effect of...applying the poisoned condition? Just off the top of my head lol.

Ok my idea for improving the 6th level thing. Maybe granting immunity to being restrained?

And dont you need a 10th level ability? Grant them a poisonous bite as a reaction, or upgrade their poison to paralysis on hit?

The Totem Warrior 10th level ability isn't totem-choice-dependent. This isn't a complete Path; it's another animal-totem for an existing one.

Immunity to being restrained might work, though it would apply to a lot of things that aren't entwining/entangling (like some petrification effects).

Poisoned might be enough of a rider by itself, yeah.

Could "just" up the damage to 2d4; apparently that makes the grung PC race a bit over-the-top, so might be fitting on a barbarian. But I do like the idea of poisoned condition, because giving disadvantage to things is fun.

Maybe even 1d4 poison damage, and save or be poisoned for one round?


It'd be more fun in my opinion to have the movement abilities and web sense at level 3, but I just can't justify it in the structure of how Path of the Totem Warrior does its totem choices.

[Lvl45DM!]

The Totem Warrior 10th level ability isn't totem-choice-dependent. This isn't a complete Path; it's another animal-totem for an existing one.

Immunity to being restrained might work, though it would apply to a lot of things that aren't entwining/entangling (like some petrification effects).

Poisoned might be enough of a rider by itself, yeah.

Could "just" up the damage to 2d4; apparently that makes the grung PC race a bit over-the-top, so might be fitting on a barbarian. But I do like the idea of poisoned condition, because giving disadvantage to things is fun.

Maybe even 1d4 poison damage, and save or be poisoned for one round?


It'd be more fun in my opinion to have the movement abilities and web sense at level 3, but I just can't justify it in the structure of how Path of the Totem Warrior does its totem choices.

Oh duh.
I think disadvantage works because barbs use reckless attack.

[Segev]

Alright, let's try a refinement:

Spider Totem Spirit
Third Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

While you're raging, you can apply poison to all weapons you are wielding as a bonus action. If you have no other source, you can use your own saliva, which (while you're raging) is an injection poison with a Constitution save DC of 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier, and does 1d4 poison damage and inflicts the Poisoned condition until the end of your next turn on a failed save. At 9th level, the damage improves to a d6. At 16th level, it becomes a d8.

Aspect of the Spider
Sixth Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

You gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition, and a climb speed equal to your walking speed. You may cast jump on yourself without components or spending a spell slot at will. You are immune to the Restrained condition, and are unhindered by webs, and can sense the exact location of any creature in contact with any web you are touching.

Totemic Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

When you enter a rage, you may cast web without an action or components. It persists without Concentration for the duration of your rage, and you may begin Concentration on it when your rage ends to extend its duration for as long as you maintain Concentration, up to an hour. The DC to resist this spell is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Constitution modifier. You may have no more than one such web in existence at a time; if you begin a new rage, any still-extant web disappears as the spell ends due to your Concentration breaking, and you create a new one.

[Garfunion]

Spider Totem Spirit
Third Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

When you rage, the area within 5ft around you (including your space) becomes covered in a layer of sticky webs, clinging to any surface within reach. Enemy creatures treat this area as difficult terrain. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack while they’re in your webs, that creature becomes poisoned until the start of your next turn. While you are raging, you may use a bonus action to create more webs around you (treat all your webs that overlap each other as one web). These webs remain until your rage ends.


Aspect of the Spider
Sixth Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

You gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition. You gain a climb speed equal to your walking speed and may attack with both hands while climbing without disadvantage. You are also immune to any condition that magical or non-magical webs may cause and can sense the exact location of any creature in contact with any web you are touching.

Totemic Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

Not sure what this could be right now, since you can create your own webs.

[Segev]

Spider Totem Spirit
Third Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

When you rage, the area within 5ft around you (including your space) becomes covered in webs. Enemy creatures treat this area as difficult terrain. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack while they’re in your webs, that creature becomes poisoned until the start of your next turn. While you are raging, you may use a bonus action to create more webs around you. These webs remain until your rage ends.


Aspect of the Spider
Sixth Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

You gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition. You gain a climb speed equal to your walking speed and may attack with both hands while climbing without disadvantage. You are also immune to any condition that magical or non-magical webs may cause and can sense the exact location of any creature in contact with any web you are touching.

Totemic Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

Not sure what this could be right now, since you can create your own webs.

Interesting approach. The 15-foot cube (usually truncated by the ground) of webs that let you inflict Poisoned is more in line with the way other totem animals do weird things with advantage or durability. Assuming the webs need no support and just magically hang there, that gets potent. Given you can make more, I assume they don't move. I'd also hope - though this would be a DM call - that connected cubes of webbing count as the same web for purposes of Aspect of the Spider's web sense. Even without that, it keeps invisible critters adjacent to you from hiding effectively. Or anybody from hiding their location. (DM call on whether the web sense counts as "seeing" them for purposes of (dis)advantage.)

The effective spider climb (with the freeing of hands for attacking) is a reasonable upgrade that probably makes the need for increased jumping distance far less.

Especially if making webs does have them suspend in mid-air; you could climb them for pseudo-flight.

For Totemic Attunement, how about...

Totemic Attunement: Spider
Creatures in webbing generated by your rage cannot be immune to poison, and poisoned creatures that end their turn in your webbing become Restrained, and may make a Strength saving throw against a DC of 8 + your proficiency modifier + your Constitution modifier to end the condition.



We should also probably crib wording for the webs generated by raging from the web spell regarding height (layered five feet deep if there's no ceiling within 10 feet to anchor it to) and light obscurement.

[Garfunion]

Interesting approach. The 15-foot cube (usually truncated by the ground) of webs that let you inflict Poisoned is more in line with the way other totem animals do weird things with advantage or durability. Assuming the webs need no support and just magically hang there, that gets potent. Given you can make more, I assume they don't move. I'd also hope - though this would be a DM call - that connected cubes of webbing count as the same web for purposes of Aspect of the Spider's web sense. Even without that, it keeps invisible critters adjacent to you from hiding effectively. Or anybody from hiding their location. (DM call on whether the web sense counts as "seeing" them for purposes of (dis)advantage.)

The effective spider climb (with the freeing of hands for attacking) is a reasonable upgrade that probably makes the need for increased jumping distance far less.

Especially if making webs does have them suspend in mid-air; you could climb them for pseudo-flight.

For Totemic Attunement, how about...

Totemic Attunement: Spider
Creatures in webbing generated by your rage cannot be immune to poison, and poisoned creatures that end their turn in your webbing become Restrained, and may make a Strength saving throw against a DC of 8 + your proficiency modifier + your Constitution modifier to end the condition.



We should also probably crib wording for the webs generated by raging from the web spell regarding height (layered five feet deep if there's no ceiling within 10 feet to anchor it to) and light obscurement.

I think you’re reading into the web ability a bit too much, which isn’t a bad thing. However I did add some additional wording that may help reduce the confusion.
When I imagine this ability being used, you are not exactly spewing out the webs, they just appear around you on surfaces, not crisscrossing between “walls”.

As for the web sense, i’ll see if I can find a simple wording that reflects the ability to “see” an invisible creature.

Edit; i’m starting to think the level 6th ability is becoming to heavy with stuff. I might move the web sense to 14.

[Segev]

I think you’re reading into the web ability a bit too much, which isn’t a bad thing. However I did add some additional wording that may help reduce the confusion.
When I imagine this ability being used, you are not exactly spewing out the webs, they just appear around you on surfaces, not crisscrossing between “walls”.

As for the web scene, i’ll see if I can find a simple wording that reflects the ability to “see” an invisible creature.

I think I'd word what you're going for with, "A layer of webs clings to every surface in reach, making floors, walls, and everything else sticky. Enemies treat this as difficult terrain, and any creature you hit with an attack in your webbing becomes Poisoned until the end of your next turn." I do think end, rather than start, is important so you can take advantage of their being poisoned on your next turn, if you like.

Or even, "...becomes Poisoned until they start a turn in a space not occupied by your webbing."

[Garfunion]

I think I'd word what you're going for with, "A layer of webs clings to every surface in reach, making floors, walls, and everything else sticky. Enemies treat this as difficult terrain, and any creature you hit with an attack in your webbing becomes Poisoned until the end of your next turn." I do think end, rather than start, is important so you can take advantage of their being poisoned on your next turn, if you like.

Or even, "...becomes Poisoned until they start a turn in a space not occupied by your webbing."

The poisoned condition only applies to the creature’s attack rolls. And I didn’t want it to be more powerful than the eagle totem’s disadvantage on opportunity attacks ability.

[Garfunion]

I made some changes to the archetype to make it a bit more simpler. To ensure that the barbarian can mix-and-match their totems, I made sure that the spider totems didn’t rely on each other.

Spider Totem Spirit
Third Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

When you rage, the area within 5ft around you (including your space) becomes covered in a layer of sticky webs, clinging to any surface within reach. Enemy creatures treat this area as difficult terrain. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack while they’re in your webs, that creature becomes poisoned until the start of your next turn. While you are raging, you may use a bonus action to create more webs around you. These webs remain until your rage ends.

Aspect of the Spider
Sixth Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

You gain immunity to poison damage and the poisoned condition. You gain a climb speed equal to your walking speed and may attack with both hands while climbing without disadvantage. You are also immune to any condition that magical or non-magical webs may cause.

Totemic Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

While you are raging, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, sticky webs begin to cover the creature. That creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus) or become restrained. A creature can make this saving throw again at the end of each of their turns. If your rage ends so does the restrained affect on the creature.

[Segev]

The poisoned condition only applies to the creature’s attack rolls. And I didn’t want it to be more powerful than the eagle totem’s disadvantage on opportunity attacks ability.

Attack rolls and ability checks, unless you change that with explicit wording (which I wouldn't do, as then it's not really the Poisoned condition). This can matter if, say, you're planning to shove or grapple them next round.

That said, I see what you mean about stepping on the Eagle's toes. Eagle gets bonus action dash AND disad on attack rolls against him, while this is "only" disad on all attack rolls and ability checks, but it's also difficult terrain. Eagle is EVERY creature that would try an OA; this is only creatures you hit. Eagle's purpose is to enable a mobile fighting style more than anything else (interestingly, combined with reckless attack, it means OAs attack you normally). This one's purpose is to reduce enemy options. Sicken and slow.

Maybe...

Spider Totem Spirit
3rd level Path of the Totem Warrior option

When you rage, the every exposed surface that is not part of nor carried by a creature within 5ft around you (including your space) becomes covered in sticky, clingy webs. Enemy creatures treat this area as difficult terrain, and cannot take the Disengage action. The first creature you hit with an attack on each turn (even if it is not your turn) that is in your webs becomes Poisoned until it starts its turn in an area free of your webs. While you are raging, you may use a bonus action to create more webs around you. These webs remain until your rage ends.



This is more in line with the Zealot's 1-per-round radiant damage, and technically lets you poison two creatures in a round if one provokes an OA on its turn. But you're not stepping on the Eagle's toes too hard, since the Eagle Totem gives as many disadvantages as it needs to to protect you from OAs, while this is at most 2/round. And if they work to get away, you can only chase down one.

[Garfunion]

Attack rolls and ability checks, unless you change that with explicit wording (which I wouldn't do, as then it's not really the Poisoned condition). This can matter if, say, you're planning to shove or grapple them next round.

You are right about the poisoned condition I missed the second part.

The barbarian can still perform a grapple or shove on the same turn that they inflict the poisoned condition, the barbarian does get two attacks. If you combine it with the tavern brawler feat it becomes a bit better. It also provides an ally assist feature similar to the wolf totem. Allowing your allies to better grapple or shove the creature.

I’m trying to keep the totem features simple and not too overbearing.

[Segev]

You are right about the poisoned condition I missed the second part.

The barbarian can still perform a grapple or shove on the same turn that they inflict the poisoned condition, the barbarian does get two attacks. If you combine it with the tavern brawler feat it becomes a bit better. It also provides an ally assist feature similar to the wolf totem. Allowing your allies to better grapple or shove the creature.

I’m trying to keep the totem features simple and not too overbearing.

Is there a reason why you end it at the start of the barbarian's next turn, rather than the end, in your version? That wouldn't impact its overlap with the Eagle Totem's disadvantage on OAs.

[Garfunion]

Is there a reason why you end it at the start of the barbarian's next turn, rather than the end, in your version? That wouldn't impact its overlap with the Eagle Totem's disadvantage on OAs.

Turn insure it’s not too powerful and that the Barbarian can’t take significant advantage with it. The barbarian already has a lot going on at 3rd level.
The barbarian is raging; which provides damage resistance, advantage on strength ability checks/saves, and bonus damage.
This would mean that the barbarian would have advantage on their grapple check while the creature would have disadvantage on the grapple check, seems a bit overkill.
The barbarian can sacrifice one if it’s attacks to perform the grapple if it wants to take advantage of this feature on the turn they poisoned the creature.

[Segev]

Turn insure it’s not too powerful and that the Barbarian can’t take significant advantage with it. The barbarian already has a lot going on at 3rd level.
The barbarian is raging; which provides damage resistance, advantage on strength ability checks/saves, and bonus damage.
This would mean that the barbarian would have advantage on their grapple check while the creature would has disadvantage on the grapple check, seems a bit overkill.
The barbarian can sacrifice one if it’s attacks to perform the grapple if it wants to take advantage of this feature on the turn they poisoned the creature.

Not at third level. The extra attack doesn't come until 5th level. Maybe you intend that delay, but I want to make sure you're not assuming the Barbarian has more going on than he does.

[Garfunion]

Not at third level. The extra attack doesn't come until 5th level. Maybe you intend that delay, but I want to make sure you're not assuming the Barbarian has more going on than he does.

I know the Barbarian doesn’t have an extra attack until 5th level. But you still have to plan for these things, to reduce abuse.
I still stand by my reasoning that it would just be overkill.

[Segev]

No, I get it. I just wanted to be sure we were on the same page, because it wasn't clear from context.

I need to think about this a bit more. I notice you also took the web sense off the level 6 ability.

I think this is on the right track, for the most part. The three main things associated with spiders are webbing, poison, and wall-walking, and this covers those bases between the three abilities.


Totem Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option
You do not need a free hand to initiate or maintain a grapple on targets in your webs, and grappled creatures are not released from your grapple by leaving your reach unless they also leave your webs.




This version works with the poisoned condition, and also ends automatically with your rage if you're not right there to maintain it, while playing into the Barbarian's strengths and other class features rather than creating a save DC.

[Garfunion]

Totem Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option
You do not need a free hand to initiate or maintain a grapple on targets in your webs, and grappled creatures are not released from your grapple by leaving your reach unless they also leave your webs.




This version works with the poisoned condition, and also ends automatically with your rage if you're not right there to maintain it, while playing into the Barbarian's strengths and other class features rather than creating a save DC.
I understand what you’re trying to create here but the totem features must work independently of each other. Because the barbarian is capable of mixing and matching their totems.

So without looking at the previous spider totem features what do you want to have for a 14th level ability?

[Segev]

I understand what you’re trying to create here but the totem features must work independently of each other. Because the barbarian is capable of mixing and matching their totems.

So without looking at the previous spider totem features what do you want to have for a 14th level ability?

Hm. Right, can't count on having webs. I did forget about that.

Well, let's pull this apart again.

There are three "spider-associated themes:" poison, wall-walking, and webs. For full independence, you can have one of each at each point.



...actually, the webbing reference is the only problematic part from this perspective.


Totem Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option
While raging, you can initiate a grapple without needing a free hand by spinning webbing to ensnare your target. If you start your turn with a creature grappled in this way, you may maintain the grapple regardless of whether they remain in your reach. The entangling webs maintain it for you, but disappear if they break the grapple or your rage ends.



Now, there is a downside to this version of it: your version doesn't care how much bigger the target is than you are. This version doesn't work if they're more than one size category bigger than you. I like this version because it plays to Barbarian strengths (i.e. Strength and advantage on Strength checks). COULD add a clause about being able to grapple creatures regardless of their size while raging....

[Garfunion]

Totem Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option
While raging, you can initiate a grapple without needing a free hand by spinning webbing to ensnare your target. If you start your turn with a creature grappled in this way, you may maintain the grapple regardless of whether they remain in your reach. The entangling webs maintain it for you, but disappear if they break the grapple or your rage ends.

There really should be a better trigger for this ability. I’m trying to envision this ability working without hands. Hmm


Totemic Attunement: Spider
14th Level Path of the Totem Warrior option

While you are raging, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, sticky webs from the ground grasp at the creature grappling them. A creature may use their action to escape from this grapple, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by the barbarian’s Strength (Athletics) check. If your rage ends so does this grapple affect on the creature.