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Darkxarth
2007-10-24, 06:24 PM
I'm going to be running a single-player in a few weeks, and she wants to play two characters, a Bard and a Rogue. She's an old hand at the game, and loves the social interaction/diplomacy aspect, not that she doesn't enjoy a good fight now and then. Anyway, she's a good player and I want to try and run a good game.

But, she doesn't have the time to create her own characters, much to her disappointment, and has left that enjoyable task up to me. But, I don't just want to hand her two characters and force her to play them if they don't suit her style.

Long story... long, I would like to see if I can come up with multiple builds and (eventually) multiple characters for her to choose from. Feel free to submit anything from just a four word concept, to a fully-developed character sheet. I just ask you to follow these guidelines:

- The characters must be Good or Neutral
- Level 2-5 (both characters do not have to be the same level)
- I only have 3.5 Core & Complete Arcane as far as character-building goes. So please try to stick to those books.
- No Eberron or Faerun please.
- Monster races are okay.
- No multiclassing, but Prestige classes are okay.

Thanks in advance for your help, and I hope you guys can have fun creating some interesting characters.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 07:46 PM
With only PHB and Complete Arcane, there's not a lot you can do with low-level Bards and Rogues, just pump the skills you want to focus on (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive and Perform, from the sound of it), and pick appropriate feats. One thing I have found to be fun to do with Bards is to build them more "fighter-ish" than they usually are - I had a Bard with high strength who El-Kabonged people with his Mithril Hollow-Body guitar, that was a good time.

I would highly suggest expanding your book collection for something like this, Complete Adventurer and Scoundrel, and PHBII contain some of the best material for these two classes.

I would also highly suggest the Bard buy a wand of CLW if this is going to be the whole party :P

UserClone
2007-10-24, 08:05 PM
My personal favorite Rogue build is a Beguiler.:smallwink: (PHBII)

Grynning
2007-10-24, 08:47 PM
BTW, are you disallowing Eberron because you don't have the book, or don't like the setting? Because Changelings are fun as hell and can easily be dropped into any setting (basically they're just "half-dopplegangers").

Darkxarth
2007-10-24, 09:03 PM
With only PHB and Complete Arcane, there's not a lot you can do with low-level Bards and Rogues, just pump the skills you want to focus on (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive and Perform, from the sound of it), and pick appropriate feats. One thing I have found to be fun to do with Bards is to build them more "fighter-ish" than they usually are - I had a Bard with high strength who El-Kabonged people with his Mithril Hollow-Body guitar, that was a good time.

I would highly suggest expanding your book collection for something like this, Complete Adventurer and Scoundrel, and PHBII contain some of the best material for these two classes.

I would also highly suggest the Bard buy a wand of CLW if this is going to be the whole party :P

Yeah, I'd love to pick up the Complete Adventurer and the PHB II, but my available funds for that kind of purchase are pretty low right now.


BTW, are you disallowing Eberron because you don't have the book, or don't like the setting? Because Changelings are fun as hell and can easily be dropped into any setting (basically they're just "half-dopplegangers").
Becuase I don't have the book. I have very minor, but interesting, D&D books.

3.5 Core
Complete Arcane
Hordes of the Abyss
Arms and Equipment Guide (3.0)
Heroes of Battle
Deities and Demigods (3.0)
Expanded Psionics Handbook

See? Not that those aren't good books, but Hordes of the Abyss and Heroes of Battle aren't that useful for a low-level urban campaign.

Grynning
2007-10-24, 09:20 PM
Ok, here's what I would go with, to offer a nice selection. I've avoided names or story information since that's really something the player and DM have to work out.

Char 1
Dwarf Fighter 1, Rogue 3
Solid Combat character without going full-tilt fighter, remember, you can still sneak attack with a Dwarven Waraxe. Go high strength, medium dex and use a shield with light armor, and focus on stealth and intimidate. Alignment: Most likely Neutral

Char 2
Halfling Bard
Go with the gypsy motif used for Halflings in the core book with this character. Harmless grifter, heavy use of Sleight of Hand for shell games, gambling, etc. Maybe have them speak with an Eastern European accent. Perform skill here is most likely a stringed instrument like a Violin, or perhaps a homebrew "fast-talk" perform skill (like a carnie) Alignment: CG or CN

Char 3
Human Rogue
Go with the archetypical skill-monkey, high int, lots of handy skills rather than focusing on anything in particular. Any Alignment works for this one.

Char 4
Half-Orc Barbarian 1, Bard 4
This one seems kind of bizarre, but if you get into the whole tribal war-chanter element it makes sense. You will need to put your highest ability score in charisma to make up for the -2, and pick skills appropriate for a "wilderness" bard. Also note that some bardic music can still be used while raging. Have them play a Drum and Sing loudly. Alignment: Chaotic Neutral or Good.

Those are just a few that I pulled off the top of my head, but you see how you can experiment with the base classes to make interesting low-level characters from these.

Logic Cannon
2007-10-24, 09:25 PM
If she's got enough time to sit down for a couple hours and roleplay, she's got enough time to make a character or two. She'll be more attached to them if she makes them herself.

Darkxarth
2007-10-24, 09:32 PM
Ok, here's what I would go with, to offer a nice selection. I've avoided names or story information since that's really something the player and DM have to work out.

Char 1
Dwarf Fighter 1, Rogue 3
Solid Combat character without going full-tilt fighter, remember, you can still sneak attack with a Dwarven Waraxe. Go high strength, medium dex and use a shield with light armor, and focus on stealth and intimidate. Alignment: Most likely Neutral

Char 2
Halfling Bard
Go with the gypsy motif used for Halflings in the core book with this character. Harmless grifter, heavy use of Sleight of Hand for shell games, gambling, etc. Maybe have them speak with an Eastern European accent. Perform skill here is most likely a stringed instrument like a Violin, or perhaps a homebrew "fast-talk" perform skill (like a carnie) Alignment: CG or CN

Char 3
Human Rogue
Go with the archetypical skill-monkey, high int, lots of handy skills rather than focusing on anything in particular. Any Alignment works for this one.

Char 4
Half-Orc Barbarian 1, Bard 4
This one seems kind of bizarre, but if you get into the whole tribal war-chanter element it makes sense. You will need to put your highest ability score in charisma to make up for the -2, and pick skills appropriate for a "wilderness" bard. Have them play a Drum and Sing loudly. Alignment: Chaotic Neutral or Good.

Those are just a few that I pulled off the top of my head, but you see how you can experiment with the base classes to make interesting low-level characters from these.

These are great! I especially like the Halfling Bard idea, and I could borrow the Complete Warrior from my friend and work with the actual War Chanter PrC

Fishy
2007-10-24, 09:33 PM
The SRD lists a Variant Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) that gets Wild Empathy and an Animal Companion: qualifying them for Elemental Familiar from Complete Arcane. Max out your bluff skill and suddenly you've got a flute that commands the winds, or a drum that causes earthquakes.

....
2007-10-24, 09:34 PM
I love how people ask, "Hey, I want to make a good character of X class and Y race. I have W and Z books. Can you help me using only these?"

And the next eight people are like, "Well, first you should be class S and race G then buy books H, K, L, M, N and C. Then you need to dip classes E and J, and then take Q and O PrCs."

Grynning
2007-10-24, 09:40 PM
Note, I didn't do that. I just recommended a book selection, then asked for more clarification on what was available. I firmly believe you can make great characters from any selection of books, it's just sometimes a challenge to make them from a small group of books if you own a big collection :P

Darkxarth
2007-10-24, 10:08 PM
Ah yes, the SRD, how could I have forgotten about that! Several more options available.

I have a question:

From the PHB II wasn't there some sort of option that let you get some type of Jack-of-all-trades ability? I can't remember what you sacrifice for it though.

And no, she really doesn't have the time to create characters. It's going to be at a public library sponsored gaming night, and she's one of the adult supervisors, technically the head, and so she thought she'd like to play in a game too. And the only other DM already has between 5 and 6 players on a regular basis. And since my players have all disappeared, and I like going to talk to the other DM and players, I agreed to go ahead and run a game for her.

Grynning
2007-10-25, 12:44 AM
In PHBII there is an alternate bard class feature called Bardic Knack that you can get instead of bardic knowledge. It basically lets you use 1/2 your bard level as your ranks in any given skill, as long as you could use the skill normally (i.e. if you can use the skill untrained or have some ranks in it).

There is also the Jack-of-All-Trade feat from Complete Adventurer, which gives you 1/2 a rank in every skill. Combine it with the alternate class feature above and you can do just about anything :smallwink:

Darkxarth
2007-10-25, 01:04 AM
In PHBII there is an alternate bard class feature called Bardic Knack that you can get instead of bardic knowledge. It basically lets you use 1/2 your bard level as your ranks in any given skill, as long as you could use the skill normally (i.e. if you can use the skill untrained or have some ranks in it).

There is also the Jack-of-All-Trade feat from Complete Adventurer, which gives you 1/2 a rank in every skill. Combine it with the alternate class feature above and you can do just about anything :smallwink:

I was definitely thinking of Bardic Knack, but that Jack-of-All-Trades feat is pretty awesome too. So, basically the Jack-of-All-Trades feat was designed just to work with Bardic Knack, and it lets you roll for things like Decipher Script which can't be rolled untrained.

Nice. I wanted the Complete Adventurer, but Complete Arcane called to me with its promises of more and better magicks. Meh, its got some nice stuff, but I think I'd've been better off with the Spell Compendium or CAdv.

Thanks for all your help, Grynning. You and everyone have been great and extremely helpful to a poor, splat-book-deprived DM like me.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 01:13 AM
First, I recommend a search of the CharOp boards and the rogue/bard build compendiums.

Second, if you don't already know how to do so, look up inspire courage optimization. By level 8, you can be giving allies +8 or so to attack and damage rolls on *all* types of attacks, and that can be amazingly good.

Third, a few nifty bard builds I rather like myself.

1: Cast better than a Sorceror! Make your party Wizard feel inadequate! Build the ultimate buffer with Bard 8 / War Weaver 1 / Recaster 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / War Weaver 4 / Recaster 4. This build is the gold standard for buffers, giving you 9th level spells (including bard earlies at lower levels!), the ability to chain your buffs to the whole party for free, and plenty of metamagic tricks via Recaster. Of course, if Recaster's not available, the build's still fantastic (still 9th level spells, still has war weavin' action). With just Complete Arcane, you still have Sublime Chord (at least, I think it's CArc... might be CAdv. It's been a while), and that still gives you 9th level spells.

2: Fight better than the Fighter! Dice your opposition with fantastic TWFing! Make the party Warblade feel inadequate! The bard can get swift action inspire courages that give up to +12d6 or so energy damage to *all attacks* by *all allies* that last all combat, plus 9th level maneuvers, as well as full inspire courage progression, with a very simple build. All you have to do is take the Song of the White Raven feat (ToB) to make stuff stack and Bard 4 / Warblade 16 or Bard 4 / Crusader 16. Add Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) and standard run-of-the-mill inspire courage optimization for the energy damage, and TWF to lay down the hurt by the hundreds of damage. Too bad this one uses multiclassing, which seems to be arbitrarily disallowed :smallannoyed:

...

Don't underestimate how much you can optimize the bard. They're much more potentially powerful than some would have you believe. :smallwink:

Darkxarth
2007-10-25, 01:22 AM
First, I recommend a search of the CharOp boards and the rogue/bard build compendiums.

Second, a few nifty bard builds I rather like myself.

1: Cast better than a Sorceror! Make your party Wizard feel inadequete! Build the ultimate buffer with Bard 8 / War Weaver 1 / Recaster 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / War Weaver 4 / Recaster 4. This build is the gold standard for buffers, giving you 9th level spells (including bard earlies at lower levels!), the ability to chain your buffs to the whole party for free, and plenty of metamagic tricks via Recaster. Of course, if Recaster's not available, the build's still fantastic (still 9th level spells, still has war weavin' action)

2: Fight better than the Fighter! Dice your opposition with fantastic TWFing! Make the party Warblade feel inadequete! The bard can get swift action inspire courages that give up to +12d6 or so energy damage to *all attacks* by *all allies* that last all combat, plus 9th level maneuvers, as well as full inspire courage progression, with a very simple build. All you have to do is take the Song of the White Raven feat (ToB) to make stuff stack and Bard 4 / Warblade 16 or Bard 4 / Crusader 16. Add Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) and standard run-of-the-mill inspire courage optimization for the energy damage, and TWF to lay down the hurt by the hundreds of damage.

...

Don't underestimate how much you can optimize the bard. They're much more potentially powerful than some would have you believe. :smallwink:

Er, not exactly what I was looking for, but very telling anyway. I'd heard somewhere about an Artificer loophole that allowed 9th-level spells early, but never a Bardic one.

Anyway, I don't own the book with the Recaster class, Dragon Magic, or Tome of Battle.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 01:24 AM
Er, not exactly what I was looking for, but very telling anyway. I'd heard somewhere about an Artificer loophole that allowed 9th-level spells early, but never a Bardic one. It's not a loophole, and it's not early. Not sure what you're talkin' about here. It just gives 9th level spells by 20th level.


Anyway, I don't own the book with the Recaster class, Dragon Magic, or Tome of Battle. The first build works wonderfully with just Complete Arcane, because all you REALLY need is Sublime Chord (because Sublime Chord gives you 9th level spells). The rest is just making that even better. Heck, I didn't use Recaster when I played my caster bard myself, because I wasn't a changeling.

Heh, funny thing is, in all the games I've played where anyone played a Bard, they were always pretty much the most mechanically effective in the party. Despite so many inexperienced players chirping "bards are underpowered" all the time. (By contrast, they're rated as one of the top most powerful classes on the CharOp boards polls.)

Grynning
2007-10-25, 01:25 AM
Umm...this wasn't an optimization thread, man, we were discussing how to make interesting low level bards and rogues with limited books. I also think you're seriously misreading Inspire Courage (or referencing some kind of feat/class feature that I've never heard of) but have fun with that.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 01:33 AM
Umm...this wasn't an optimization thread, man, we were discussing how to make interesting low level bards and rogues with limited books. Planning for the future is essential in a game as unforgiving as D&D (unless you have some houserule like rebuilding characters). Further, I mentioned that build 1 could essentially be done with only the Complete Arcane. On top of all that, the first thing I did was suggest the build compendiums, which provides a number of interesting concepts and mechanical possibilities, whatever your level might be. That will give you everything from a pretty basic level 3 TWF Rogue to the mighty Dice Bag Duskblade bringing bags of d6s to resolve his attack damage at level 5 or so. I suggested it first because it was most relevant and helpful. Then I referenced a basic resource essential to creating effective Bards at low levels (optimize inspire courage!), so that you're not handing the player a totally sucky option. And then I provided a couple of builds I used myself LAST.


I also think you're seriously misreading Inspire Courage (or referencing some kind of feat/class feature that I've never heard of) but have fun with that.

I am not misreading ANYTHING, thank you. In fact, the bonus I cited assumes taking the more restrictive interpretation of the Words of Creation rules. In any case, Inspire Courage optimization can be done at very low levels, because all the resources for it are CHEAP.

Off the top of my head...

1: Masterwork instrument from Complete Adventurer. You can have it at level 2.

2: Inspirational Boost from Spell Compendium. Level 1 Bard Spell. Also at level 2.

3: Badge of Valor from Magic Item Compendium. Only 1400g for the item.

4: Words of Creation feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. DOUBLES your Inspire Courage. With the restrictive interpretation, only doubles your BASE inspire courage, but that's still a +2 at level 8.

5: Song of the Heart. Feat. Can get it right off the bat.

That's... +1 +1 +1 +1 +2 already, on top of the base +2, for a total of +8 at level 8. Or +12 if you think WoC actually doubles everything. And yes, I'm positive they all stack.

This is really just basic Inspire Courage optimization. Just about every bard build has it. It's nothing special I made up. It's common knowledge amongst more experienced players (at least those who play bards) about as much as Pun Pun.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-25, 01:43 AM
2: Fight better than the Fighter! Dice your opposition with fantastic TWFing! Make the party Warblade feel inadequate! The bard can get swift action inspire courages that give up to +12d6 or so energy damage to *all attacks* by *all allies* that last all combat

Wait, what? Wouldn't it be more like 4d6 energy damage per attack at level 20?

Not that that's not still nifty, but where are you getting 12d6 from??

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 01:44 AM
Wait, what? Wouldn't it be more like 4d6 energy damage per attack at level 20?

Not that that's not still nifty, but where are you getting 12d6 from??

Inspire Courage has a lot of sources that add stackable +1s, all of which are pretty easily available (a feat, a level 1 spell, a masterwork instrument and a 1400gp item ain't exactly hard to get your hands on by level 3-4). There's the ones I listed above for low level, then things like Vest of Legends to add even more +1s when you can afford things more than 1000g.

And yes, WotC *does* stealth buff the Bard in supplements quite frequently. Heck, just look at things like the Songblade ("Your sword is better based on your bard level"), let alone all the wonderful feats like Snowflake Wardance or Song of the Heart. They get some of the most benefits from supplements, really. Lots of good feats, equipment, and PrCs for bards that really let them rank up in power.

Grynning
2007-10-25, 01:49 AM
Wasn't an insult, sorry you decided to take it that way. And while we're on the topic of "passive-agressive"...



This is really just basic Inspire Courage optimization. Just about every bard build has it. It's nothing special I made up. It's common knowledge amongst more experienced players (at least those who play bards) about as much as Pun Pun.

Every experienced player who plays a bard uses half-a-dozen splatbooks to optimize one class feature? Wow, you must have seriously different "experiences" with role-playing games than I do.

Anyways, my comment was more out of surprise than anything. While your enthusiasm towards bards is admirable (I like the class a lot myself), the complex builds you mentioned were somewhat outside the scope of the discussion.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 01:50 AM
Wasn't an insult, sorry you decided to take it that way. And while we're on the topic of "passive-agressive"...



Every experienced player who plays a bard uses half-a-dozen splatbooks to optimize one class feature? Wow, you must have seriously different "experiences" with role-playing games than I do.

Anyways, my comment was more out of surprise than anything. While your enthusiasm towards bards is admirable (I like the class a lot myself), the complex builds you mentioned were somewhat outside the scope of the discussion.

Bard/Warblade, Bard/Crusader, and Bard/Sublime Chord are too complex? :smallconfused:

What about Bard/Paladin? (Bardadin is a classic. Basically, you take advantage of how many times you can stack Cha bonuses. And that one Bard/Paladin multiclass feat, Initiate of WhateverItWas. I'd have to look it up.)

Grynning
2007-10-25, 01:52 AM
Well, considering that we're working with max level 5 characters using only PHB and complete Arcane...yeah, a bit.

The bard/paladin feat that I know of is in CAdv, Devoted Performer.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 01:53 AM
Well, considering that we're working with max level 5 characters using only PHB and complete Arcane...yeah, a bit.

Knowing where someone might want to go in the future is ESSENTIAL for creating characters in D&D. The game makes you plan ahead, unless you have Character Rebuilding or something. Or if you're just a Cleric and can rebuild your character every day for free. Or a psion with Psychic Reformation. Or whatever. Anyways, Rogues and Bards usually need to plan ahead. Thus, knowing what you might eventually want to turn into after you level up from 5 is a *good thing.* Making a pre-made character to hand to PCs only to realize that they can't advance effectively isn't nice.

For example, if you build a Fighter, and don't consider feat trees, you're screwed. You can't get any of the better feats, because you didn't invest in the prerequisites. (Nevermind that unless you're using some serious optimization, you might be kinda screwed anyways)

Another example, you'll want to start on your Prereqs for Sublime Chord at level *1*. Not level 5. Which is why it seems all too relevant, unless the game isn't intended to ever advance.



The bard/paladin feat that I know of is in CAdv, Devoted Performer.

Again, I'd have to check (never had an interest in Bardadin. The Crusader build seems altogether more elegant (if not more powerful) for similar flavor), but I'm pretty sure that's not the one that's the core of the Bardadin builds.



Every experienced player who plays a bard uses half-a-dozen splatbooks to optimize one class feature? Wow, you must have seriously different "experiences" with role-playing games than I do.

Most experienced players (at least, any who have ever gone on a forum) recognize Pun Pun and know how to make him. Pun Pun uses MANY supplements (at least, the Sarrukh version does). What kind of logic makes you find that same situation unlikely for the Bard? Are players suddenly stupider when it comes to the Bard, unable to understand concepts that require more than one book, especially ones they may not have? (Seriously, who bought Serpent Kingdoms? Now, who knows how Serpent Kingdoms makes Pun Pun work? Case and point.)

Seriously though, what compels you so to attempt an attack on a knowledgeable person providing constructive advice? :smallconfused:

Grynning
2007-10-25, 02:16 AM
Dude, at no point was I attacking you personally, please stop trying to turn this into a flame war. And since your calling into question my logic on character building, I'll respond to that, and that only.

If you're giving a pre-made character to a PC, I'm of the opinion that it should be a springboard for their own ideas. You shouldn't pigeonhole a player into some crazy min/maxing build you found on a forum just because you think it's cool. If the Bard wants to take Improved Unarmed Strike, let them. If the Fighter wants to spend cross-class skill ranks on Knowledge: Astral Physics, fine. It's about having fun with your character, not destroying planets with every dice roll. Most campaigns evolve as you go, so choosing a complicated build and riding it out for an ultimate reward at level 10 or 20 doesn't usually work out too well anyways.

Also, I'm quite familiar with Pun-Pun, and as the creator of the original build noted, that is a silly mess of convoluted mechanics used to break the game. It has no bearing on actual role-playing, and most character optimization threads are the same way. While I love the rules and I do use them to my advantage, I don't lose sleep because I wasted a feat at low levels. Think about "heroic" characters from movies and books and such. If you statted them, they wouldn't really be "optimal" builds. Doesn't make their exploits any less entertaining.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-25, 02:21 AM
You shouldn't pigeonhole a player into some crazy min/maxing build you found on a forum just because you think it's cool.

Thing is, no matter how you build it, you get pigeonholed (barring specific cases like a Psion with Psychic Reformation who can basically rebuild his character on demand). Only way to avoid that would be to, you know, let them build their own characters.


Dude, at no point was I attacking you personally, please stop trying to turn this into a flame war. You just accused me of attempting to start a flame war. Not even separated by a period from the claim that you weren't attacking me personally. In response to me saying you were attacking (not attacking personally). And then giving me a lecture on not being a dirty powergamer as if I didn't write deep and twisting plots to the great acclaim of everyone who's ever played a game with me (I really do find it ironic that despite having played freeform RP for 8 years before starting to use rules and mechanics, and putting a huge focus on storytelling in my games, people in these forums always are accusing me of being a "dirty powergamer who can't understand how to roleplay" just because I have a bloody clue what I'm talking about when it comes to mechanics) in response to me pointing out the *useful* information of how to optimize the bard (and by extension, better understanding where the bard's strengths and potential lies). O... K... :smallconfused:


If you statted them, they wouldn't really be "optimal" builds. Doesn't make their exploits any less entertaining.

Which has what to do with anything? The guy asks how to build, you show him how to do it well. That doesn't mean you tell him "Hey, use these builds exactly." Sure, you might not want to copy the famous artist's painting, but you damn well study his technique to figure out how to better use the brush. It gives you tools to work with. Whether you're building for power or roleplaying at any level, mastery of the mechanical tools is useful, and mastery of the mechanics is contributed to by seeing classes optimized. It helps to teach a man to fish.

Temp
2007-10-25, 02:25 AM
If the Bard wants to take Improved Unarmed Strike, let them. If the Fighter wants to spend cross-class skill ranks on Knowledge: Astral Physics, fine.
But you're making the character for her... I'm confused...


Think about "heroic" characters from movies and books and such. If you statted them, they wouldn't really be "optimal" builds.

Because reality, popular fiction and D&D are three entirely seperate things...

Grynning
2007-10-25, 02:28 AM
Ok, I give up, whatever. Let's just drop it so that Darkxarth's thread does not get hijacked by this nonsense.

Doresain
2007-10-25, 09:51 AM
step 1: get eberron campaign setting (if only for the changelings)
step 2: make a changeling bard
step 3: ???
step 4: PROFIT!

Kurald Galain
2007-10-25, 10:07 AM
The SRD lists a Variant Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bard) that gets Wild Empathy and an Animal Companion: qualifying them for Elemental Familiar from Complete Arcane.

That's interesting, but effectively this build can't do much with his bardic music any more. Isn't Inspire Competence the whole point of being a bard?

Threeshades
2007-10-25, 10:16 AM
step 1: get eberron campaign setting (if only for the changelings)
step 2: make a changeling bard
step 3: ???
step 4: PROFIT!

Thanks to MM3 you dont need the eberron campaign setting for that anymore.

Toliudar
2007-10-25, 12:02 PM
Sticking with core + complete arcane, a possible fun combination:

Wealthy and debonair halfling or gnome bard who proclaims him/herself a "sleuth", using social skills to get in and out of situations most people wouldn't permit. Very focused on mental stats.

Half-orc rogue, perhaps with a couple levels of the variant Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) class, as the sleuth's faithful if longsuffering servant. Primarily focused on physical skills. Smarter than he lets on, but focused on doing the dirty work.

For added fun, the halfling usually sits on the half orc's shoulder and does all the talking.

Since both characters are being played by the same player, it's nice to have two characters who are immediately distinguished, but interconnected.

Roland St. Jude
2007-10-25, 09:58 PM
Sheriff: No one seems to be making personal attacks or flaming - just accusing each other of doing so. Please stop that. And, of course, don't flame each other.

Doresain
2007-10-25, 10:10 PM
Thanks to MM3 you dont need the eberron campaign setting for that anymore.

either way a changeling bard is amazing...in the last eberron setting i was in, the ranger sent out his badger animal companion into the darkness only to get killed by a guard like 15 feet away...we kill the guard, but we hear a door opening from the stairwell nearby...i managed to take the guards clothes and morph into said guard right before the baddies reach the bottom of the stairs (the rest of the group used a wand of invisibility and hid the body)...i was pretty much free to roam around the fort we had been teleported to, while the party was stuck in the basement

Goumindong
2007-10-25, 10:21 PM
2: Fight better than the Fighter! Dice your opposition with fantastic TWFing! Make the party Warblade feel inadequete! The bard can get swift action inspire courages that give up to +12d6 or so energy damage to *all attacks* by *all allies* that last all combat, plus 9th level maneuvers, as well as full inspire courage progression, with a very simple build. All you have to do is take the Song of the White Raven feat (ToB) to make stuff stack and Bard 4 / Warblade 16 or Bard 4 / Crusader 16. Add Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic) and standard run-of-the-mill inspire courage optimization for the energy damage, and TWF to lay down the hurt by the hundreds of damage.

Can you explain this "Song of the White Raven" feat?

Because bardic music already does stack with itself(at least the prime abilities do) and you dont need to stop playing for that to happen, by PHB RAW.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-25, 10:47 PM
Bard
Well, if your campaign/adventure/etc. is planning to go above 10th level, CAr gives you basically two really good options:

Seeker of Song, which is a blaster/buffer who relies on music. The flavor is interesting, but I think the thing I like most about it is that it feels decidedly different from playing a caster.

Sublime Chord, which is probably the most powerful option for playing a bard. It more or less turns you into a sorcerer variant who has a musical tie to magic. You still get many of your interesting music options, but the best thing is that you get your spells faster, and you get more of them.


Rogue
The rogue is easily one of the most versitile classes in the PHB, but for a city campaign, I would recomend making a dective-like character. For flavor, perhaps a sort of defender of the downtrodden, urban-Robin Hood like character who gets tangled up in conspiracies and such.

For a build, I would have your feats focus on combat and focus your skills on gathering information, problem solving, etc. A Int should be a high priority, and you may want to invest in some knowledge skills, at least Knowledge (local).

When it comes to combat, go either Melee or Ranged when you choose your feats, heading toward Greater Manyshot if you go ranged, or trying to TWF it if you go melee. If you do go melee, investing in Bluff for feinting, and possibly Improved Feint, are great options.

Fishy
2007-10-26, 05:25 AM
That's interesting, but effectively this build can't do much with his bardic music any more. Isn't Inspire Competence the whole point of being a bard?

It's true, it's a big loss. But you keep your non-combat music: You can fascinate/suggest/countersong all day long. Passing out +1's to all of your allies is really useful, true, but boring as all get out sometimes.

Norsesmithy
2007-10-26, 10:54 AM
Except it isn't just +1s, by buying a few things, taking a feat, and casting a spell or two, it can be +12s

valadil
2007-10-26, 11:21 AM
I realize this isn't in any of your books, but Daring Outlaw from Complete Scoundrel lets you stack rogue and swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) levels for sneak attack among other things. Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler X with a decent int score can make for a competent rogue who can still melee. If there are just two PCs, making the rogue a bit hardier is probably a good thing, and it'll still retain the flavor. If you also want to twink the character, lion totem barbian from PHB2 can give you pounce, but the character starts getting diluted at that point.

Darkxarth
2007-10-27, 12:22 AM
Ok, I give up, whatever. Let's just drop it so that Darkxarth's thread does not get hijacked by this nonsense.

I appreciate the thought. :smallcool: And also, no one ever says my name, thanks for that too. :smallbiggrin:


Bard
Well, if your campaign/adventure/etc. is planning to go above 10th level, CAr gives you basically two really good options:

Seeker of Song, which is a blaster/buffer who relies on music. The flavor is interesting, but I think the thing I like most about it is that it feels decidedly different from playing a caster.

Sublime Chord, which is probably the most powerful option for playing a bard. It more or less turns you into a sorcerer variant who has a musical tie to magic. You still get many of your interesting music options, but the best thing is that you get your spells faster, and you get more of them.


Rogue
The rogue is easily one of the most versitile classes in the PHB, but for a city campaign, I would recomend making a dective-like character. For flavor, perhaps a sort of defender of the downtrodden, urban-Robin Hood like character who gets tangled up in conspiracies and such.

For a build, I would have your feats focus on combat and focus your skills on gathering information, problem solving, etc. A Int should be a high priority, and you may want to invest in some knowledge skills, at least Knowledge (local).

When it comes to combat, go either Melee or Ranged when you choose your feats, heading toward Greater Manyshot if you go ranged, or trying to TWF it if you go melee. If you do go melee, investing in Bluff for feinting, and possibly Improved Feint, are great options.


Sublime Chord is pretty sweet, but I don't know if that's her thing. I think I'll make a build that can go into that, just in case she's wants to do it, and make sure she knows about it before she picks.

Hmm... I like the urban Robin Hood, she might really enjoy that. If I'm going for some sort of urban Robin Hood, I'll really want to go archery probably. I think that's probably going in my build box.


Wealthy and debonair halfling or gnome bard who proclaims him/herself a "sleuth", using social skills to get in and out of situations most people wouldn't permit. Very focused on mental stats.

Half-orc rogue, perhaps with a couple levels of the variant Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) class, as the sleuth's faithful if longsuffering servant. Primarily focused on physical skills. Smarter than he lets on, but focused on doing the dirty work.

For added fun, the halfling usually sits on the half orc's shoulder and does all the talking.

Since both characters are being played by the same player, it's nice to have two characters who are immediately distinguished, but interconnected.

Both of these are fantastic ideas! Just enough flavor to keep them from being blank and give her something to run with. Since I rolled fantastic stats for both the Bard and the Rogue, a decently intelligent Half-Orc Rogue wouldn't be too tough to pull off. And the Gnome/Halfling "sleuth" is easily accomplished. In fact, it might be even more amusing to give the Bard a low Wisdom and make the Half-Orc compensate for his master's absentmindedness.

I have a couple of vague Rogue ideas myself, very generic though and I haven't got anything for Bard yet.

Rogue 1
Highest Int, 2nd Dex, 3rd Cha.
Race: Human
Focus: Knows a metric ****ton of different skills, from the basic Sleight of Hand and Hide, to cross-trained rank or two in Ride and maybe some Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering). Very diverse.
Weapons: Daggers and a light crossbow.
Level: 2

Rogue 2
Highest Dex, 2nd Str, 3rd Wis.
Race: Elf
Focus: Knows the basic stealth and escape skills, but not much with bluff/diplomacy. Balance and Tumble probably too. Focusing on combat, archery preferred, otherwise uses two rapiers/short swords/Elven Lightblades.
Weapons: Longbow and two rapiers/shortswords/Elven Lightblades.
Level: 3

Rogue 3
Highest Dex, 2nd Int, 3rd Cha.
Race: Halfling
Focus: The standard Halfling thief character. Much nicer than most though. Tries to avoid melee, prefers using non-lethal poison bolts from his hand crossbow. Uses short sword if pressed.
Weapons: Hand crossbow and short sword.
Level: 5


Thanks again to everyone for your help. More ideas (or contsructive critique on current ones) are always welcome.

Temp
2007-10-27, 04:25 AM
Passing out +1's to all of your allies is really useful, true, but boring as all get out sometimes.
Which is where Song of the White Raven comes in.

-sigh- ToB, what can't you do?


Sublime Chord is pretty sweet, but I don't know if that's her thing. I think I'll make a build that can go into that, just in case she's wants to do it, and make sure she knows about it before she picks.
Most any Bard build you make will qualify so long as it keeps 7 bard levels and can spare a few ranks for Profession (Astrologer) somewhere along the way.


For the Bard (mechanics):
How about taking a level in Marshal, or two levels in Paladin, throwing some Medium armor and the Battle Caster Feat on 'im, handing him a bastard sword. Give 'im Mounted Combat and the Mount spell and you have something to break the norm a little bit. Optimized? Not really. For that you'd want SotWR and ToB...
ToB... -dreamy sigh-

For the Rogue (stuff that isn't mechanics):
Maybe an ex-doctor, put out of business by the churches with their fancy schmancy "miracles." He's out to preach atheism in a land where the gods walk so that he can drop faith in the churches and reclaim his once-prosperous medical clinic.

Darkxarth
2007-10-27, 11:47 PM
Thanks again to everyone for your help, you've had a lot of really great ideas and some fantastic builds.

I've got enough varied Rogues for my player to pick from, but I'm having trouble coming up with more than a few serious variations on the Bard.

- Half-Orc Bard (Wardrums and Chanting, Damage Dealer)
- Standard Half-Elf DiploBard
- Goofy Gnome Bard

That's pretty much it. Now, I've been given a lot of options for where to take the Bard after a few levels, and even some great starting mechanics, but what I'd really like is a few non-mechanic based Bard ideas.

Basically, I'm just looking for some Bard fluff at the moment, I've pretty much got everything else I need.

Thanks again.

- DX

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-28, 03:11 AM
Can you explain this "Song of the White Raven" feat?

It lets you use Inspire Courage as a swift action, and use your Crusader or Warblade levels to stack with Bard levels for the sake of how good your Inspire Courage is.

Grynning
2007-10-28, 03:41 AM
Bard fluff can go all over the place, since they're a class with very diverse abilities, they can have equally diverse origins. I like Toliudar's gumshoe idea a lot, and the con-artist gypsie I mentioned earlier is another one.

Here's a couple more ideas:

Have the bard be a well-known celebrity, and be either vain and self-absorbed, or perhaps trying to use their fame to advance a cause, or both. It's easy to draw inspiration from real-life musicians/actors etc. for this kind of character. For a little extra flavor, maybe the bard has some kind of skeletons in their closet that they don't want anyone to know about, and the public scrutiny makes them more than a bit nervous that someone will find out.

If you're going for more of a magic focused bard, maybe they washed out of wizard/sorcerer school because they didn't take their studies seriously enough and were always fooling around with their guitar. Now they're on a quest to prove that they can be a powerful mage in addition to a talented musician (this would work well if you were going for one of the CArc PrC's discussed above).

These are pretty basic ideas, they would need fine tuning to fit into your campaign, but it gives you and the player something to work from.

Lolzords
2007-10-28, 12:48 PM
If you don't mind being simple, I really like playing an elven rouge with two levels of shadowdancer thrown in. (That way, you can be the party archer as well as getting darkvision and hide in plain sight.)

mistwell
2007-10-28, 01:14 PM
You may find this thread helpful:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=185372

OneWinged4ngel
2007-10-28, 01:38 PM
You may find this thread helpful:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=185372

Already posted all the stuff they got there in this thread =P

Thanatos 51-50
2007-10-28, 02:14 PM
Of the books that the OP mentioned, I have ---

Core.

So, I'll try NOT to dip into my other sourcebooks, here.

Try:
(and I'm gunna give the 1/2 Elf some love, here, since everyone seems to hate him)

1/2Elf Rogue Diplomat "Gentlemen Thief"/"Seductruss"

Level : Whatever
Recommend Stat Layout:
INT-CHA-WIS/DEX-CON-STR
Recommended Skills:
(I have a thing for blindly maxing everything, so:)
Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Forgery, Sleight of Hand, Perform (Dance), Knowledge (Local), Search, Spot, Listen, Disabe Device, Open Lock - then start in on movement skills like use rope, tumble and climb.
Recommended Feats:
Skill-boosters, like Diplomatic, Nimble Fingers, and Diligent would work well here - this guy/gal should be designed to stay out of combat and charm his way as close to the fortress as possible, with minimal physical exertion required.
Weaponry:
Belt-knife, and Rapier or Shortsword. Something presentable at the Duchesses' Grand Ball - maybe a hand crossbow.

Think of him as a bard without Bardic Music, more skills, and a canny knowledge of traps and anatomy. Or you could make him a bard, too, I guess, just give him/her Perform (Sing) and some instrumental perform, like a (Harp) or (Violin)... something fancy. - 1/2Elf Bonus for Diplomacy, Spot, Listen, and Search would be all the better (and lets not forget Low-light vision)

Alternativly:

Human Cat Burgler Rogue

Level: -whatever-
Stat Layout:
DEX/INT-STR-WIS-CON-CHA
Recommended Skills:
MOVEMENT! Tumble, Climb, Balance, Use Rope, et. cetera to your heart's content!
See also: Search, Spot,Listen, Appraise, Hide, Move Silently, Knowledge (Local/Archtecture/Security), Disable Device, Slieght of Hand (This is simply a sub-in for perfrom in case you need to cause a distraction!), Gather Information - you probably won't have the INT bonus to pull it off, so you may want to prioritize INT over DEX, here. Your extra skill points as a human should help.
Feats:
Movement Feats are really good, look into Sprint, and Fleet of Foot, anything that would boost your ft/round move rate. Maybe the oft-hated RUN (In case you get caught!) Quick REconniter is also extremly useful (+2 INT and lets me use Focused Spot and Listen <To detect invisibles, for instance> as a Free Action? Yes, please! (That may be in CAdv, though). Again, skill boosting feats and Tactile Trapsmith (in case you prioritize DEX over INT) are good things to look into.
Weaponry:
Maybe the humble Spear or quaterstaff is worth a look here. Don't negelct a short sword o mace, and definatly pack a dagger! For rang, go with either a shortbow or light crossbow, depending on flavor you want to apply.

~~~

If you're looking to buy other sourcebooks, I'd give Complete Scoundrel a definate look-over for your cat-burgler. Same with CAdv (Especially with the Thief-Acrobat PrC)

~~~

LANGUAGES!!!!!
Are definatly not to be overlooked! Thats another reason for the 1/2Elf and human, they are allowed ANY non-secret language as a bonus language by RAW.

If your campagin has Thieve's Cant, Gutterspeak, or Battlecant as languages, both charecters should invest in these! Battlecant is only really a "must" if either charecter uses "Old Soldier" as a cover story or in their background, but can prove useful, anyway.

Your diplomat should definatly learn the flowerly languges which make the ladies and/or lords swoon, as well as any High Imperial or Courtier - type languages.

The cat brugler should probably know Gnomeish - becuase gnomes are awesome, and have that knack for inventing which would put him on the cutting edge of technology.
Don't be afraid to throw in the odd Draconic or Orcish if you think it gives good flavor or would be funny.

I'll leave my Wall o' Text, now...

Darkxarth
2007-10-28, 02:53 PM
Thanks Thanatos, those are fantastic! I love the idea of an Elegant Gentleman/Lady.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-10-28, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the compliment, and it is absolutely no problem.

My one other idea is for a "Master/Mistress of Disguise" -style Bard, but I'm, unfortunatly, seperated from my books and not fond enough of bards to have appropriate info memorised.

mistwell
2007-10-29, 12:33 PM
Already posted all the stuff they got there in this thread =P

Ah, fair enough.

With just core and complete arcane, it's going to be rough. WOTC realized the Bard was too weak well into the publishing run, and only started to make "patches" to the bard in the later books (like those mentioned, such as Eberron and Magic Item Compendium and Spell Compendium).

Runa
2007-10-29, 03:16 PM
Here's a fun fluff/concept for you:

Bard and Rogue are a mischievous team, with the Bard doing dazzling performances while the Rogue pickpockets the rich jerks in the audience, and so on - the rogue sneaks 'round and tries to get away with all sorts of things, while the Bard provides the distraction.

You could go all kinds of ways with this, even with a Good alignment. Even more interesting might be if one was Neutral and the other Good - instant conflict, instant plot basis! :D Or, perhaps they're both spies aiding La Resistance or trying to take down a corrupt official or some such. Or perhaps all of the above, even.

When I was considering running a single-player game with my BF, that was one of the things (Bard and Rogue duo) that we thought might be fun for just that reason. Perhaps the Rogue even has a few Perform ranks to cover up the fact that they're a thief. ;)

A Rogue with a lot of ranks in Tumble can also make for a clever entertainer, using his or her acrobatics to earn money - or provide a distraction - even when they're not using them to escape. Making the duo even more in harmony.

Just some loose ideas, thought I'd toss them out.

It really is too bad you don't have more splatty goodness, but I know how that is. It's either Complete Adventurer or Complete Warrior (somebody please correct me as to which?) that had some great stuff like Dervish (dance-based warrior that uses fluid movements and high dex and so on against her opponents, floating like a butterfly, slashing like something, really... slashy. Ever see that movie "Serenity"? River Tam's a Dervish on CRACK :smallbiggrin: ), and Swashbuckler. Whatever book that was, that's a good one for whenever you CAN next afford to splurge on a book. ;)

- Runa

Darkxarth
2007-10-29, 03:55 PM
It really is too bad you don't have more splatty goodness, but I know how that is. It's either Complete Adventurer or Complete Warrior (somebody please correct me as to which?) that had some great stuff like Dervish (dance-based warrior that uses fluid movements and high dex and so on against her opponents, floating like a butterfly, slashing like something, really... slashy. Ever see that movie "Serenity"? River Tam's a Dervish on CRACK :smallbiggrin: ), and Swashbuckler. Whatever book that was, that's a good one for whenever you CAN next afford to splurge on a book. ;)

- Runa
Also a fantastic idea!

Dervish and Swashbuckler are both in Complete Warrior, which I can probably steal from a friend of mine for a couple of weeks.

I just recently saw Serenity, and yeah, River is definitely some sort of Dervish/Monk hybrid. Great movie, great ideas, great post. Thanks Runa.

0oo0
2007-10-29, 04:07 PM
Runa-
I've had a ton of fun playing a rogue/bard duo. A friend and I played as brothers, who together basically smooth-talked/swindled our way through the short lived adventure. It was really wonderful when we were able to get a back and forth fast talking going while RPing our interactions with NPCs. Combined, we could talk our way past almost anything, and it was great.

Runa
2007-10-29, 04:48 PM
Also a fantastic idea!

Dervish and Swashbuckler are both in Complete Warrior, which I can probably steal from a friend of mine for a couple of weeks.

Great! :D

Both offer extra fun and flavor - and some nifty options for higher levels if you guys end up reusing the characters. Swashbuckler in particular has a lot of potential to go in any number of directions, as I recall - built right into both fluff and crunch, I think (also, it seems ideal for Bards and Rogues). I'm fond of Dervish at this point though too, as in my group's regular gestalt game, I'm playing a Bardadin Elistraee-worshiper (she's a goddess with a big focus on music and dance) with high dex and lots of Perform (Dance) and Tumble ranks, and I've been eying that in case we keep going with these characters long enough. It seems like it would be quite fun, and for a musically-themed character, it's even good flavor-wise.



I just recently saw Serenity, and yeah, River is definitely some sort of Dervish/Monk hybrid. Great movie, great ideas, great post. Thanks Runa.

I am delighted and amused to find you know exactly what I was getting at with that reference - delighted, because it's always good to see one of my favorite movies appreciated by another; amused, because I posted about just that on a Firefly/Serenity forum after I discovered Dervish! I figured she'd be a Monk before taking it too! (Except it would have be some kind of variant or homebrew version of Monk, because I don't think she could be considered Lawful Good - Neutral Good, maybe, and easily True Neutral... but Lawful, methinks not quite).

Wonder how one'd stat the apparent telepathy, though... I could swear there was something in the Psionics books about something close to it, but I'm not sure as I've never played a Psionic character (a couple of friends in the group have, but I didn't exactly see them reading minds :P).

Anyway, I'm glad my post helped! :smallsmile:

-Runa

BardicDuelist
2007-10-29, 05:15 PM
For annother non-mechanical bard idea:

How about a Don Quixote-ish character who is a bit older (perhaps middle age), and has decided to go out looking for adventure? He would be some form of musician/performer who wants to emulate the characters in the ballads and stories he tells so often, and at times confuses these tales with reality. With a low wisdom, but a high charisima and a decent intelligence (for remembering all of those little factoids from his stories), he may even be able to convice people that the things he believes to be true (that that windmill is a giant trying to trick him) just might be.

It is actually a character I am considering for the time being, and I thought it was flavorful enough to use in nearly any type of campaign.

More information on Don Quixote can be found here if you need it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_quixote