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furby076
2020-04-15, 09:36 AM
Hey All.

The mystic, AKA Psion has a long history in D&D, spanning all the way back to 1st edition. It is heavily featured in Dark Sun, Spell Jammer, Eberron and to a lesser extent in FR. There are Psionic creatures (e.g., Mind Flayer, Intellect Devourer). Back in 1st edition (before my time), classes could take Psionic abilities. Starting in 2nd edition there came out the Complete Psionics and this was repeated in 3.x. For some reason (probably $$), Wizards decided to discontinue the Psion and to bolt on "Psionic" abilities as subclasses. I like the subclass ideas for players who want to only take some tweaks (e.g., soul knife as a rogue is pretty cool), but Psionics should have it's own class. I'm not a fan of the most recent UA (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/psionic-options-revisited)

What is this thread about: To tweak the Mystic (Psion) so it is more enjoyable at the table. This can be from abilities, feats, magical (psionic) items, power edit/deletion/addition, mechanics handling, etc. Each suggestion should come with justification so the entire group can understand your thought process

What this thread is NOT about: This thread is NOT about killing the mystic (Wizards took care of that). This thread is NOT about refluffing existing Wizards/Sorcerers into a "Psion". So, please, let's not go down that rabbit hole. If you are not interested in the Mystic/Psion, then don't participate. You won't see this in AL and you won't see this at your game table (unless you want it)... in other words, as my wife's best friend says "Don't yuck my yum" :)

What is the mystic

This is a character that focuses on the mind and interacts with the magic weave differently than arcane/divine users. They manifest these Power's from sheer will of the mind
This is a full class caster, but instead of Spells it utilizes Powers
The Mystic is NOT a monk. While they share some similar stories (e.g., monasteries, hermits, meditation), they are not the same. So merging Ki and Psi points is not something to include (you can do whatever you want at your table). By avoiding the merging of Ki and Psi we also prevent munchkin builds such as Monk X / Psion 1 where the Monk get's significant boost to their Ki points, a bunch of level 1 abilities and 3 disciplines that are all powered by Ki. Ki is also short rest, so if we made a Monk/Psion, then the character could go nova after each battle. Imagine Monk 2 (2 ki) + Psion 10 (64 ki) and they regain it on a short rest. That sounds totally balanced to me :mitd:
This thread is based on V3 of the Mystic (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UAMystic3.pdf) that came out in 2017


Format

New SUGGESTION, post it as S1, S2, S3,... S = Suggestion
RESPONDING to a SUGGESTION, then post your REPLY as R1, R2, R3 - corresponding to the SUGGESTION number
Justification: This is really important. If you think a power is unbalanced (strong/weak), then cite a reason. Every class has something that is OP/Weak (e.g., Wish/Miracle, Simulacrum). Keep in mind, it's OK for things to sometimes be more powerful/weaker. Is it a lot different or just a little? How does it compare to the class overall. Look at the bigger picture and compare.

Is Psionic Blast too powerful? 1d8 per power point spent. No attack role or save. Spend 5 points, and that is 5d8 unavoidable direct damage. Now, compare this with Magic Missile (lvl 1 - 1d4 (x3 missiles) +1 dmg, no attack role or saves, and can hit 1-3 targets and can be upcast). So is Psionic blast significantly too powerful, on par or weaker than MM?


CONSENSUS I'll create two place-holder posts, under this one, for SUGGESTIONs the forums agrees on


My Background
A little about my role with the Mystic. I love the Psion class and think it's quirky and fun. My only major issue with the past Psionic classes was 2nd edition Psionic combat. It was good in theory and is fine in a 1 player game, but is terrible for a standard group game. I think the 3.x Psionic class was pretty spot on and am baffled as to why they just didn't mimic this for 5e. When Mystic v3 came out, I created it in Herolabs, with significant technical support from a couple of that community membership. I play a mystic (past 1.5 years) and find the creative options fun ("There and Back Again" + Misty Form = amazing way to save an ally being grappled). I've had to tone down some options by not using them (Nomadic Mind) while other options just stink (Nomadic Step). My character is an Awakened Mind who is a mute (Telepathy with the party, and doesn't talk to the rest of the world at all).

My thoughts on the Mystic. It's a skill-monkey and has the ability to do a ton of things. Looking at all the Powers (and discipline add-ons) this is huge, but it's somewhat controlled with the fact a player can't take EVERY discipline. While a Mystic has flexibility (power points vs power slots), they also can't take every single power in the book, while clerics get almost every spell for a given level and wizards can eventually take every spell (based on their DM allowing them to find it).

2015 Mystic (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/awakened-mystic)
2017 Mystic (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/mystic-class)
Psionic Subclasses (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/unearthed-arcana-fighter-rogue-and-wizard)
Revised Psionic Subclasses (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/subclasses_part3)

furby076
2020-04-15, 09:37 AM
Consensus: This is the place for us to put in updates we generally agree on. NOTE: Please correct me if I got a Consensus item wrong so I can correct it.

C1:

Mystics are magic users
Mystics are not spell-casters
Psionics and Psi powers are magical
Psionics and Psi powers are not spells


3 Table Options are Available


No Magic Transparency: Spells, abilities, items, etc that impacts Spells do NOT impact Powers and vice versa. Exception: If the Power mimics an existing spell (e.g., "Detonate can cast like the Fireball spell", then it is considered a spell for the purposes of Transparency
Full Magic Transparency: When a spell, ability, item, etc impacts a Spell, then it impacts Powers. The same holds true for Psionic Powers impacting Spells
Semi-Magic Transparency: Psi powers can be countered and dispelled, but the caster must always attempt the check and never gets an auto-success. If a Psionic power mimics the functionality of dispels, counter-spells or anti-magic the same check applies when used against spells.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

furby076
2020-04-15, 09:39 AM
Placeholder: Maybe this spot will be needed. Maybe it won't be needed.

furby076
2020-04-15, 09:54 AM
S1

Psionics use magic

Psionic powers/effects are impacted by things that modify MAGIC (Anti-magic Field)
This holds true for the reverse

Powers are not Spells

Psionic powers/effects are not impacted by things that modify SPELLS (Counterspell)
This holds true for the reverse


Optional Rule: Spells and Powers can fully interact, so ignore the above

Justification

Jeremy Crawford stated, that generally if you can't see a spell being cast, it can't be countered https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/694962397128163328
Mike Mearls states that spells like Counterspell can only impact powers if the Power is replicating a spell https://twitter.com/kcon1528/status/695622548462051329
3.5 edition Psionics was treated separately than arcane/divine, with optional rule to treat it as the same
Mystic V3 guide (page 3) "Psionics is a special form of magic use, distinct from spellcasting."

Kane0
2020-04-15, 03:36 PM
R1: Agreed, but to clarify:
Mystics are magic users
Mystics are not spellcasters
Psionics and Psi powers are magical
Psionics and Psi powers are not spells

To expand on that:
Is a Psi power were to replicate a spell, it would use phrasing such as ‘you can cast’ just like racial features and feats do. These are spells in every functional sense.

As an alternative: ‘Semi-magic transparency’
Psi powers can be countered and dispelled, but the caster must always attempt the check and never gets an auto-success. If a psionic power mimics the functionality of dispels, counterspells or antimagic the same check applies when used against spells.

S2: Disciplines should be retained, thematically linked bundles of powers fuelled by [resource to be decided on].
This differentiates your magic from that of a spellcasters even if the end results appear superficially similar and are easier to balance and distribute than a spell list.

Note this doesnt include Talents, Focus, Psi Points or Die. Those can be their own suggestions.

Morphic tide
2020-04-15, 04:07 PM
R1:

The separation of Psionics and Spellcasting is contingent on there being either an alternative solution for Beholders no longer forcing the party to adjust tactics, or for Psionics to lack the sort of game-twisting spellcasting possesses that makes such solutions necessary.

In the former case, it needs to be something reliably present whenever the situations you'd drop a Beholder on the party come up, such as having Psionics be generally Concentration dependent in some capacity so that the anti-Concentration measures can lock them down much the same as the Concentration spells usually responsible for the aforementioned Beholder drops. Otherwise, you have to design encounters specifically for Psionics and spellcasting in a module, with it being reliant on two clashing toolkits.

In the latter case, this sets some very harsh limits on the world-affecting ability of Psionics, as they simply can't do the world-bending stuff of a high-level caster, leaving them as yet another second-rate character group for casters to taxi through the high-fantasy of a campaign to handle the "busy work" of the normal gameplay.

R2:

I agree with this position, but on the basis of it being a key solution to the other problem of the Mystic being way too versatile. If we have Psionics be a feature-complete subsystem, then the eternal problem of the "all solving Wizard" that still plagues spellcasting will be a threat. Disciplines give the option to have a lot of mechanical fulfillment while simultaneously harshly limiting breadth of problem solving in one character.

For example, if the necessary toolbox of a Natural Attack's damage output came in one Discipline, you have just one choice made to have the attacks themselves, the key boosts to the attacks, thematic riders to give something other than raw damage and help assure the damage reaches more regularly... and these options must be taken together, rather than having it so that a character with a pre-existing Natural Attack can grab just the damage boost and spend the rest of those picks on self-sustain and mobility to have about the same damage while being a pain to kill and always sticking to the enemy.

S3:

Fewer Disciplines per Character

Two or three Disciplines at 1st level, but only five or six at 20.
Have general Disciplines, but lock a subclass Discipline at 1st level.


Staged Discipline access:

"Half" progression in Powers available to use with a single pick, having the more sensitive abilities lagging behind or requiring "mastering" the Discipline over accessing another.
Class features to "focus" a Discipline to amplify the effects into the 6th-9th level spell territory, rather than having specifically segregated "High Psionics" that give the plot coupons.


More classes:

Focus the Mystic on the support abilities, peeling away the direct encounter ending functions and personal "in face" options to focus wholly on amplifying and preserving allies.
Return the Wilder, focused on damage-dealing in every possible capacity, and the attendant self-sufficiency to apply the damage like the Psychic Warrior toolkit including flight and healing.
Use the Lurk for the "canned Gish", giving it primarily skill-based problem solving and Disciplines focused on that, debuffing enemies, and burst close-range damage.


Justification:

The complaints against the Mystic center on it being a "do everything" class, so forcing specialization and reducing the amount in the Mystic proper fixes that.
Emphasizing Disciplines as fields of competence, graded by plot-relevant degrees, means that characters quickly focus on themes rather than having room to dig for just-in-cases.
It allows "partial" progressions to choose if they want the typical shallow bag of a few key options, or if they want to go all-in on just one thing to have the full access of that Discipline.

Kane0
2020-04-15, 06:14 PM
R3:
Agreed on 2-6 Disciplines for a 'full' psionic progression, assuming each discipline is 3 or so powers. That means you start with about 6 and end up with about 18 individual uses for your [resource] excepting class and subclass features, which may include an additional unique discipline.

However I think your 'more classes' point should be its own separate suggestion, if you don't mind I'll label it S4

S4: More than just the Mystic class, so one class cannot do everything.

R4: I don't think more than one base class is necessary (at least to start with), as subclasses for the Mystic and other existing classes can be used to the same effect. If the Mystic gets a smaller selection of 'generic' disciplines plus a handful (1-3?) extras unique to each subclass and we do the same for any 'partial' psionic progression subclasses (psychic warrior fighter, lurk or soulknife rogue, etc) then there will be no one place you can go to do it all. I could see the call for a 'half' progression class, but I would vote that be done after the full and partials are complete.

It would just be a matter of marrying up the thematics to the mechanics. If the Mystic is the all-in mind based pionicist it would make little sense for it to get many body based disciplines (psychometabolism), or a reworked immortal subclass. Thus most of those can get moved away from the Mystic and the Mystic subclasses can focus on other primary leanings of psionics like Psychokinesis, Telepathy and Clairsentience.

Theoboldi
2020-04-15, 06:19 PM
R1: I am strongly in favor of full psionics/magic transparency. While I don't care very much for antimagic abilities as a balancing mechanism, I feel like they should affect all classes whose main stick is using some kind of magical power equally. They are very niche in that regard and should be useful for their niche.

Besides, how antimagic and dispels function are inconsistent with any given setting's definition of divine/arcane divide and more ambient magic like dragon breaths at the best of times, so I don't see it making anything worse from a fluff standpoint.

S5: One of the most consistent criticisms I've seen of psionic classes is that componentless casting is overpowered, particularely from the standpoint that it allows for free use of powers in a social context.

To combat this, I would give power use some kind of noticeable visual effect, maybe a glowing aura or just making it so that the psion's concentration is blatantly obvious to anyone looking at them if that's too flashy.

animewatcha
2020-04-15, 06:37 PM
Would it help to have a link to the old psionics UA? The one that WOTC actually did good with instead of Butcher-city?

DarknessEternal
2020-04-15, 06:39 PM
R1: I am strongly in favor of full psionics/magic transparency.


Game is not built for any other option. Trying to make psionics not-magic requires a fundamental redesign of nearly the entire game.

Kane0
2020-04-15, 06:44 PM
2015 Mystic (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/awakened-mystic)
2017 Mystic (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/mystic-class)
Psionic Subclasses (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/unearthed-arcana-fighter-rogue-and-wizard)
Revised Psionic Subclasses (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/subclasses_part3)

R5:
Indeed, some sort of indication should be necessary. Some options:
- Glowing (replacing somatic component)
- Psi crystal (replacing material component)
- Mentally broadcasting your presence (replacing verbal component)
- 'Target you can see' (just like many spells)

Arkhios
2020-04-16, 12:50 AM
I'm partial to making psion/mystic/psonk/whatever you choose to call it, a "hybrid" conceptually in that it takes inspiration from Monk (ki points and elemental disciplines), Warlock (pact boon/invocations), and sorcerer (sorcery points/metamagic). I'm not saying I would simply copy and paste all of it into one, but rather take inspiration from them and come up with something that shares similarities.

Even before this latest UA you are so keen to call a butchery I was making design steps towards this, so for my part I can say these ideas aren't influenced by the UA one bit.

The core:

Intelligence or Wisdom based (not sure which, tbh)
A pool of psi points, similar to Ki and Sorcery Points
Disciplines (choose one as your subclass, gain access to Powers and Talents (I'll explain these below), either as Improvements to the basic ones or as Discipline Specific additions)
Generic Powers and Talents available to all Psonks, regardless of Discipline.



Upgrades:

Powers and Talents are your Pact Boons and Invocations, in a way. You spend Psi Points to power both, but in different ways. All Psonks share a mutual list from which they can choose a number of them, and I was thinking it could be an amount equal to the minimum number of spells a wizard knows and can learn, effectively excluding those that Wizard can learn through personal research. Psonks don't have a spellbook or similar and thus may not learn more like a wizard can. Powers and Talents have equal costs, based on their level, like with spells points. (I had a redesigned spell points progression for this use, but I made a slight mistake and it vanished into the "virtual-space", so I'll have to do it again. In short, I'm not a fan of the amount of points spell points and spells cost by default and effectively cut it down a bit and made it more linear in the process)
Powers: You expend Psi Points from your daily reserve to manifest effects labeled as powers. These may replicate 'cast a spell' and thus some of these are affected by effects that apply to spells. Some are more like your version of Elemental Disciplines that do not replicate spells but create nonetheless magical effects. Expended Psi Points are regained on a long rest
Talents: These are abilities that bestow constant benefits on you and you alone. Instead of expending Psi Points from your daily reserve, you Invest them in Talents. In a sense, you store them away until you choose to release them. Until then, these invested Psi Points count against your Daily Reserves as Expending does. Invested Psi Points are regained on a short rest or long rest, unless released earlier.




Extras:

Psychic Focus: Basically an object a Psonk can use as a spellcasting focus for their powers that replicate casting spells. This could be a Psicrystal, Psicrown, Dorje, etc.
Psionic Meditation (this one I'm particularly proud of myself): Whenever a Psonk would fail their Concentration, they can as a Reaction expend an amount of Psi Points equal to the cost of the Power or Talent that created the effect you were concentrating on, and regain the concentration immediately. Effectively you manifest it again as your reaction.
Improved Cantrips: Either as a base feature or part of Discipline (in this case, Discipline Specific Talents when you Invest in them). I see no reason to re-invent the wheel. A mediocre magical effect you can spam at-will is the same however you call it. One of the key differences in regards to most other spellcasters would be to, similar to Warlock and Invocations linked to Eldritch Blast, a Psonk could get increasingly more improvements on Cantrips thematically linked to one of the six Disciplines (Clairsentience, Metacreativity, Psychokinesis, Psychometabolism, Psychoportation, and Telepathy). For example, Psychokinesis is all about manipulation of matter and energy with your mind. Casting Mage Hand Cantrip without components is an obvious improvement, but a later one could be to perhaps allow Psychokinesis Discipline (a Kineticist) to use Mage Hand to make melee attacks at range using their Psionic Ability Modifier for both attack and damage rolls, as long as the weapon handled in this way falls within the Cantrip's weight restrictions.
An example of Psychokinesis Specific Talent you could invest psi points in: Mind Over Body (Invest 1*): You gain Unarmored Defense with Armor Class equal to 10 + your Intelligence modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
(*a placeholder for the cost. If this was a first level Talent, then using my Psi Point progression would cost 1 point to invest, but if it's deemed more reasonable as a higher level ability, the cost could be greater)

furby076
2020-04-16, 09:11 PM
R1: Agreed, but to clarify:
Mystics are magic users
Mystics are not spellcasters
Psionics and Psi powers are magical
Psionics and Psi powers are not spells

To expand on that:
Is a Psi power were to replicate a spell, it would use phrasing such as ‘you can cast’ just like racial features and feats do. These are spells in every functional sense.

As an alternative: ‘Semi-magic transparency’
Psi powers can be countered and dispelled, but the caster must always attempt the check and never gets an auto-success. If a psionic power mimics the functionality of dispels, counterspells or antimagic the same check applies when used against spells.


R1: Im in favor of your clarification (for the first two points) and will update mine. It's cleaner.
For 'Semi-Magic Transparency' - I think that would fall under alternative rule. So now we have Primary : (as we discussed; Optional: Full Transparency, and Optional 2: Semi-Transparency. Each table can pick their own flavor



S2: Disciplines should be retained, thematically linked bundles of powers fuelled by [resource to be decided on].
This differentiates your magic from that of a spellcasters even if the end results appear superficially similar and are easier to balance and distribute than a spell list.

Note this doesnt include Talents, Focus, Psi Points or Die. Those can be their own suggestions.

R2: Disciplines should be retained. NOTE: I assume that if it's not mentioned the folks in this thread agree with whats in the documentation. It would be madness to discuss each and every single item.



R1:

The separation of Psionics and Spellcasting is contingent on there being either an alternative solution for Beholders no longer forcing the party to adjust tactics, or for Psionics to lack the sort of game-twisting spellcasting possesses that makes such solutions necessary.

In the former case, it needs to be something reliably present whenever the situations you'd drop a Beholder on the party come up, such as having Psionics be generally Concentration dependent in some capacity so that the anti-Concentration measures can lock them down much the same as the Concentration spells usually responsible for the aforementioned Beholder drops. Otherwise, you have to design encounters specifically for Psionics and spellcasting in a module, with it being reliant on two clashing toolkits.

In the latter case, this sets some very harsh limits on the world-affecting ability of Psionics, as they simply can't do the world-bending stuff of a high-level caster, leaving them as yet another second-rate character group for casters to taxi through the high-fantasy of a campaign to handle the "busy work" of the normal gameplay.

R1:
Why must an alternative exist for edge cases? This adds complexity as people would have to consider each case that exists now and in the future. Each creature, each spell, each feat, each ability, each magic item, etc. Now if you were to say there needs to be "CounterPower", similar to CounterSpell but for psionics, that is a potential option. Some Psionic powers do require concentration already. I think Kane0 suggestion, of 1) No transparency, 2) Full transparency, or 3) Semi-transparency is more elegant and is a formula that can be applied to all.



R2:

I agree with this position, but on the basis of it being a key solution to the other problem of the Mystic being way too versatile. If we have Psionics be a feature-complete subsystem, then the eternal problem of the "all solving Wizard" that still plagues spellcasting will be a threat. Disciplines give the option to have a lot of mechanical fulfillment while simultaneously harshly limiting breadth of problem solving in one character.

For example, if the necessary toolbox of a Natural Attack's damage output came in one Discipline, you have just one choice made to have the attacks themselves, the key boosts to the attacks, thematic riders to give something other than raw damage and help assure the damage reaches more regularly... and these options must be taken together, rather than having it so that a character with a pre-existing Natural Attack can grab just the damage boost and spend the rest of those picks on self-sustain and mobility to have about the same damage while being a pain to kill and always sticking to the enemy.

S3:

Fewer Disciplines per Character

Two or three Disciplines at 1st level, but only five or six at 20.
Have general Disciplines, but lock a subclass Discipline at 1st level.


Staged Discipline access:

"Half" progression in Powers available to use with a single pick, having the more sensitive abilities lagging behind or requiring "mastering" the Discipline over accessing another.
Class features to "focus" a Discipline to amplify the effects into the 6th-9th level spell territory, rather than having specifically segregated "High Psionics" that give the plot coupons.



R3

Mystics being versatile is their thing, and they sacrifice raw power for it (nothing after level 6. No meteor swarm type power or wish type power). While mystics can pick 8 disciplines with on average 4 powers each...that is 32 powers. Now, since a Mystic can't choose individual powers some of them will be absolutely terrible. A Cleric has 33 spells by level 2. A wizard potentially 28 level 1 spells and for both of these that's just PHB. Maybe an option

Level 1 Mystic gets 3 disciplines (2 must be of their 1 order, and 1 of any order) - that's the default. Every even discipline gained can be of any order and every odd discipline gained must be of their order (until they run out). So level 3 = Any order; Level 5 = Specific Order; Level 7 Any order; etc . I think this prevents an issue folks have with a mystic of one Order taking disciplines in every single other order (beyond the 1st 2).





S5: One of the most consistent criticisms I've seen of psionic classes is that componentless casting is overpowered, particularely from the standpoint that it allows for free use of powers in a social context.

To combat this, I would give power use some kind of noticeable visual effect, maybe a glowing aura or just making it so that the psion's concentration is blatantly obvious to anyone looking at them if that's too flashy.

R5: I was thinking of this as well, for some effects, and actually use it in my game. Detonate has a visual effect. Frozen armor does too. Telepathy, however, does not as it doesn't make sense. I think we may need to address these on individual basis. As a general rule, a (N)PC could make a perception check to see if someone looks like they are intensely focusing on something?



S6: Mystics are mentalists, but some of the Order of Awakened Mind powers seem weak, especially when you compare them the Wizard version. For example, Dominate Person vs Psychic Domination

Psychic Domination: You choose movements or actions on it's turn. It can repeat the saving throw on each of it's turns.
Dominate Person: It specifics you have more control abilities. It only makes saving throws when it takes damage. You can upcast it to last 1 hour or 8 hours

Is it me, or is the Wizard a better brain hacker than a Psion?

Arkhios
2020-04-18, 05:48 AM
A small observation that I just made...

Don't you find it odd/funny, now that this thread was moved to Homebrew Design subforum, it attracts far less attention or interest than the other Psion Homebrews there are, especially more than the ones that were here before?

I don't mean to be judgmental, I just find this behavior strange, almost as if people were "choosing sides" and pushing unwanted approaches away. While this thread was in 5e subforum, it attracted far more attention than it does now. Why do you think that is?

Grod_The_Giant
2020-04-18, 07:44 AM
A small observation that I just made...

Don't you find it odd/funny, now that this thread was moved to Homebrew Design subforum, it attracts far less attention or interest than the other Psion Homebrews there are, especially more than the ones that were here before?

I don't mean to be judgmental, I just find this behavior strange, almost as if people were "choosing sides" and pushing unwanted approaches away. While this thread was in 5e subforum, it attracted far more attention than it does now. Why do you think that is?
Because the homebrew forum in general gets way less traffic than the 5e one.

I'm currently playing with revisions for my rewrite (which I *think* is the one you're referring to there?), and I'm definitely going to do a full dive on this thread before I do.

Theoboldi
2020-04-18, 08:08 AM
R5: I was thinking of this as well, for some effects, and actually use it in my game. Detonate has a visual effect. Frozen armor does too. Telepathy, however, does not as it doesn't make sense. I think we may need to address these on individual basis. As a general rule, a (N)PC could make a perception check to see if someone looks like they are intensely focusing on something?

R5: I was thinking more of the mental manipulation effects, since those seem to be the main point of criticism. With more flashy effects, those are gonna be obvious anyways, so they're not a problem. You just don't wanna have a situation where the psion has fully subtle spellcasting for free and without risk, I think. As such, I wouldn't even ask for some kind of perception check, and just say that a psion's concentration/possible visual effect is as obvious as a mage waving his arms or a cleric swinging around his holy symbol.

Telepathy, of course, should be something that a psion can do without any effects, even if it is a power and not just a base class feature. GOO warlocks already get that ability, and it'd be pretty lame if the psion got a worse version of it despite it being a core part of their identity. It'd be like if the Wizard had worse illusions than the arcane trickster.

S7: 3rd edition had a psionic counterpart to components called displays. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display) They were small, harmless but also obvious manifestations of used powers. I think they'd be worth bringing back. Back then, you were able to suppress them with a Concentration check. Maybe that could replaced with a saving throw or a point spend like Subtle Spell?



S6: Mystics are mentalists, but some of the Order of Awakened Mind powers seem weak, especially when you compare them the Wizard version. For example, Dominate Person vs Psychic Domination

Psychic Domination: You choose movements or actions on it's turn. It can repeat the saving throw on each of it's turns.
Dominate Person: It specifics you have more control abilities. It only makes saving throws when it takes damage. You can upcast it to last 1 hour or 8 hours

Is it me, or is the Wizard a better brain hacker than a Psion?

R6: It might be cool to at least keep those as options for low level domination stuff. In my opinion, it fits the psion better to have stronger, but actively maintained control over others than to have long lasting charm effects like the wizard. Though obviously at higher levels they should start to get something at least as strong as the normal Dominate Person spell.


A small observation that I just made...

Don't you find it odd/funny, now that this thread was moved to Homebrew Design subforum, it attracts far less attention or interest than the other Psion Homebrews there are, especially more than the ones that were here before?

I don't mean to be judgmental, I just find this behavior strange, almost as if people were "choosing sides" and pushing unwanted approaches away. While this thread was in 5e subforum, it attracted far more attention than it does now. Why do you think that is?

Well, we could go with the simple explanation and consider that the homebrew forums simply aren't that active compared to the 5e forums, and even popular threads don't get many posts. The only ones that reach more than 2 pages tend to be longer projects by people who consistently make updates.

Not sure what other homebrews you are talking about. Even the one by Grod the Giant, which is the only one I can see on the front page, only has 2 pages despite being online for half a year at this point. Compare that to this thread, which has existed for about three days. Few people look at the homebrew forums and even fewer comment if they don't see anything wrong with any particular piece of content.

Edit: Huh, ninja'd by the man himself.

Arkhios
2020-04-18, 08:13 AM
Because the homebrew forum in general gets way less traffic than the 5e one.

I'm currently playing with revisions for my rewrite (which I *think* is the one you're referring to there?), and I'm definitely going to do a full dive on this thread before I do.

To be fair, I wasn't pointing fingers either, but at a glance it seemed there were more than one or two psions/mystics brewing in hotter cauldrons than this one in particular.

A side note, I wasn't trying to cause "trouble" to anyone at all. It's not even "my thread". I posted something upthread and came back to see if it had been noticed, when I just noticed this behaviour that piqued my interest, and felt like pointing it out.

Sorry if you felt bad because of it.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-04-18, 08:39 AM
No worries!

Black Dahaka
2020-04-18, 05:30 PM
S1
Mystics are slightly lacking in total Psi points compared to the Wizard/Sorcerers 133 Spell Point in the variant rule. Since they are 'Full Casters' they should get a small increase in points, whether that be 89/44 or 78/55, I don't know.

I am not sure about them having a 'tell' when they are using some of the subtler powers.

The wording for Psionic Mastery definitely needs editing since its incredibly confusing to figure out how it works or perhaps come up with a new feature entirely.

Psionics/Magic Transparency:
Psionics are magic
Psionics are not Spellcasting
Psionics can only be counterspelled when replicating a Spell (this would only affect the Wu Jen feature)

Optional Variant: Psionics are innate magic like a dragons abilities ( Probably way too OP)

MrStabby
2020-04-20, 06:55 AM
Throwing a few ideas out there...

A tree or hierarchy might work.

S8: You need to learn X low level talents/actions/disciplines of a type before you can learn a medium one and so on. There is an explicit tradeoff between breadth and depth. One way to avoid the "do anything" caster.

My preference would be that every ability has an ethos to it - both as a requirement and an output. So it might be pasive or a "cantrip" or a spell known or a feature or whatever. Any choice you make will align more closely with one discipline or another - or possibly multiple disciplines. So you might have an ability "pyrokinetic surge" that has a requirement for "kinesis 1" and provides "Kinesis 1, Fire 1" to meet prerequisites for further abilities. I.e. selecting this ability advances your ability to focus on a couple of particular paths.

Ideally a smattering of abilities that have a few secondary outputs to support branching into a narrow range of other disciplines or having a very low level of proficency in more would be nice.



The other idea is around the magic vs own system thing.

S9:The concern with this seems to be things like magic resistance (not an issue if still magical but not a spell) and counterspell. I have a personal gripe that martials cannot interact with casters in the same way that casters can interact with martials. There is an asymmetry - a caster can hold, slow, or whatever to stop an attack but there is little active defence a martial can do against a spell being cast. I wonder if you could go down the "not a spell" route, but have a rule that psionic abilities may be interrupted during casting (or some anyway) by a melee opportunity attack? A diferent form of vulnerability, rather than more or less.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-04-20, 11:22 AM
R1: Absolutely. The only way to keep psionics and magic as totally separate things would be to build the system from the ground up to support that, or at least the setting. In the interest of modularity, if nothing else, full psionics/magic transparancy is the way to go.

R2: Agreed. If we want psionics to be distinct from magic-- and we wouldn't be here if we didn't-- it's worth keeping things like Disciplines-verses-spells that work differently. It also makes good thematic sense, I think. A psion isn't a Wizard, picking and choosing unique spells; they have mental powers they're developing, and you don't develop pyrokinesis into casting illusions.

R3/R4: Restricting access to Disciplines is key, I think. A huge reason the original Mystic was so powerful is that they can pick and choose the best options out there, regardless of what makes thematic sense. If nothing else, you should look at each Discipline as a set of spells known and balance based on that, with a slight increase given your inability to fine-tune power choice. I'm a fan of restricting certain Disciplines to certain subclasses; I'm even more fond of the idea of breaking them up across two or three classes.

Looking at the range of Disciplines, I think you could make the case for at least two distinct classes, maybe as many as four:

You've got the outwardly-focused powers, reaching out with your mind to move objects and screw with other people's thoughts and such.
You've got the inwardly-focused powers, enhancing your own capabilities and altering your body.
You've got the Wu Jen, playing Avatar: The Last Airbender.
You've got the Avatar, who's a very short-range psychic with an emphasis on buffing allies and debuffing foes.

My rewrite only had two classes-- the full-casting Psion and the half-casting Psychic Warrior-- but looking at it again it might be worth splitting off the Wu Jen. Their Disciplines are just so different from everything else, it kind of makes sense to have them be different. It also means that there's more room to make them blast-y, as you'd expect from an elementalist.

R5: Definitely-- subtle casting is a class ability, not part of an entire system of magic. Another, related point, is disarming. There are plenty of ways to interfere with a normal spellcaster's ability to throw magic around-- take away their focus, tie them up, gag them, whatever. The fact that none of that applies to psionics is another subtle-- but real-- advantage. (And one well calculated to annoy already-skeptical DMs, especially those who like being able to imprison their players).

R7: I like that idea.

S10: One topic that hasn't been addressed is nova ability. That's probably the biggest thing that makes people say Mystics are overpowered. Part of it is inherent to using spell points, but I other parts are due to the Mystic's inherent design. Any point-based casting system is going to let you nova harder. That's unavoidable-- slot-based casting forces you to spend some of your resources on low-level options, while points give you more of a choice. But even with that in mind, normal spellcasting has rules that stop you from blowing through your spell slots too fast-- if you cast a bonus action spell, you can't cast anything else but cantrips. There are (iirc) limits on how many 6th+ level spell slots you can create in a day. Mystics... Mystics just don't have those same limits. They can throw full-power magic with standard actions, bonus actions, and reactions. Given how good their action economy is, they can effectively blow through psi points three times as fast as a comparable Vancean caster can blow through slots.

Any Mystic fix has to address this. It would be easy enough to add a line saying you can only use one non-Focus power a turn, which would go a long way towards fixing the problem. You could also extend Psi Limit to cover a full turn, or even a full round-- that way you limit reaction casting too. Switching them to a short-point caster is another option, forcing you to spread out your points at least a little bit.

S11: Can I just say that I like Focuses? They felt like the coolest and most unique part of the class. I'd like to keep them in future revisions, and even expand their role. If that means ditching cantrips talents, I think I'm okay with that.