DPR calculation request vs AC levels for two Hexblade builds

[Alucard89]

Hi,

I will be playing Curse of Strahd soon. I want to make pure Hexblade because it's 1-10 adventure.

I have two options for my Hexblade build.

One is Half-Elf, ASI: 4- EA, 8- GWM using Greatsword and trying to crit fish with it.

Second one is Variant Human, ASI: 1 - PAM, 4 - GWM, 8 - +2 CHA.

My question is - which will do better in terms of damage? Let's assume both have advantage all the time. Vuman will have till level 4 2 attacks, 3 on level 5, while Half-Elf is stuck with 1 attack till level 5. Then at level 5 Half-Elf have triple advantage but still attack for just 2x (2d6 + 4), while Vuman can attack 3 times with 2x (1d10 + 13) and 1d4 + 13.

Since campaign goes only to level 10 I wonder if it's worth to even bother with Half-Elf. They are beasts one they get all feats but I will get GWM at level 8 where I will only have 2 levels more to finish campaign.

While on Vuman I will be able to utilize GWM + PAM for 6 levels before campaign ends.

Thoughts?

[Skylivedk]

LudicSavant has a great DPR calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oOEDbr8MNiYACJOldUdWb6pxLaJXWMrdjBsFMLAQqh0/edit?usp=drivesdk

[Alucard89]

LudicSavant has a great DPR calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oOEDbr8MNiYACJOldUdWb6pxLaJXWMrdjBsFMLAQqh0/edit?usp=drivesdk

Dam, that calculator is awesome!!! I got really interesting results.

I went with AC 16, as from what I gathered that is the average AC of Curse of Stradh, most enemies going between 15-18 AC. Results are very interesting.

So for level 1-4 PAM Variant Human is obviously ahead due to 2 attacks thanks to PAM + PAM reaction attack. Nothing that can be done here for Half-Elf. Vuman is clear winner.

This is all vs AC 16 of enemy!! Vuman will be using Glaive, while Half-Elf will be using Greatsword

1. Let's start with level 5.

Level 5 Variant Human, 16 CHA, PAM, GWM, Improved Pact Weapon (called IPW later), Thirsting Blade. Total +7 to hit. +2 with GWM.

Normal attack (no GWM, no Hex): 14.17 DPR

Advantage (no GWM, no Hex): 18.93 DPR

Hex (no GWM, no advantage): 18.34 DPR

GWM + advantage (No Hex): 30 DPR

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Level 5 Half-Elf, 18 CHA, Elven Accuracy, IPW, Thirsting Blade. Total +8 to hit.

Normal (no GWM, no HEX): 15 DPR

Advantage (no GWM, no HEX): 23.994 DPR

Hex (no GWM, no adv): 19.9 DPR



Level 5 summary: Variant Human definitely wins here when he has Advantage + he can use GWM. He is 7 DPR higher than EA.

Let's see how this changes when we use Curse on Target:

Vuman PAM + GWM + Advantage + Curse vs AC 16: 38. 87 DPR

Half Elf EA + Curse + Advantage vs AC 16: 30.59 DPR

With Curse on Variant Human still gets ahead with DPR. That's because both roll de facto same number of d20 in their turn. Half Elf rolls 6 and Vuman rolls 6. However Vuman gets additional attack with +10 damage which makes him go ahead.



2. Let's Now take a Look at level 8 when Half-Elf finally gets his GWM feat and Variant Human gets 18 CHA:

Variant Human, 18 CHA, PAM, GWM, IPW, TB:

Advantage + GWM: 37.24 DPR

Half-Elf, 18 CHA, EA, GWM, IPW, TB;

Advantage + GWM: 39.55 DPR

With Curse Activated on target:

Variant Human: 44.70 DPR

Half Elf: 51. 131 DPR


Level 8 Summary: This is where Half-Elf starts to get ahead when it comes to DPR, though difference is not that big.


So to sum it up:

Level 1-4 PAM Variant Human is clearly a better choice here. 2 attacks beat 1 attack every day especially with Hex added on top.

Level 5-7 PAM GWM Variant Human is still a clear winner here due to 3 attacks and GWM bonus. However, the DPR difference is 30 vs 24 DPR. So 6 damage per turn.

Level 8+ Half-Elf gets ahead a little bit from Variant Human because he can finally grab GWM which makes EA shine more due to increase accuracy. The DPR difference here is 37 vs 39.5. So only 2 DPR difference. Still hard to justify taking Half-Elf at this point.

Curse at level 8 changes it little, because Half-Elf gets more ahead here. DPR difference is 51 vs 45. So 6 damage per turn.


Conclusion:

If you campaign will end around level 10 - Variant Human with PAM + GWM will provide more consistent damage bonus from level 1-10, starting stronger for first 4 levels, being still stronger on level 5-7, and being only a little bit weaker on level 8-10. So you are stronger for 7 levels vs Half-Elf being stronger for 3 levels.

So answering my own question: Variant Human seems like best choice for Curse of Strahd.


EDIT: Test vs AC 17 and AC 18 on level 5:

Vuman GWM + Advantage vs AC 17: 28.42 DPR

Vuman GWM + Advantage vs AC 18: 24.58

Half-Elf EA + Advantage vs AC 17: 22.58 DPR

Half-Elf EA + Advantage vs AC 18: 21.992 DPR


AC 17 and AC 18 on level 8:

Half-Elf EA + GWM + Advantage vs AC 17: 36.76

Half-Elf EA + GWM + Advantage vs AC 18: 33.51

Vuman + GWM + PAM + 18 CHA + Advantage vs AC 17: 33.74

Vuman + GWM + PAM + 18 CHA + Advantage vs AC 18: 29.95

Summary: vs AC 17 and 18 Vuman is still better on level 1-7 and Half-Elf begins being better on level 8+.

[LudicSavant]

LudicSavant has a great DPR calculator:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oOEDbr8MNiYACJOldUdWb6pxLaJXWMrdjBsFMLAQqh0/edit?usp=drivesdk

Incidentally, that's an old version. You can always find the most updated release here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)


Dam, that calculator is awesome!!!

https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

[Alucard89]

snip

Though I used older version I think conclusion (calculations above) is still correct I hope: in any campaign 1-10 level Variant Human will provide better overall results and power curve than Half-Elf.

If campaign is meant to hit levels 10+ I would go with Half-Elf.

So for Curse of Strahd Variant Human is imo clearly a better choice, especially because it's very hard on levels 1-7, where Vuman provides much bigger power spike than Half-Elf.

[Skylivedk]

When I did half-drow (the spells they give are very very well suited for you).

I started with GWM target than elven accuracy (which I even up picking up at 8). For a long campaign I don't like PAM enough. You have bonus action clutter as is and half the fights after 10 you probably have your level 10 ability and counterspell as potential reactions. Maybe even Hellish Rebuke. Combine those factors and IMX the marginal gain from PAM drops quite a bit compared to:
GWM
EA
Res: Con (ended up with an uneven con score at 17, but no biggie)
Cha increase

[Alucard89]

When I did half-drow (the spells they give are very very well suited for you).

I started with GWM target than elven accuracy (which I even up picking up at 8). For a long campaign I don't like PAM enough. You have bonus action clutter as is and half the fights after 10 you probably have your level 10 ability and counterspell as potential reactions. Maybe even Hellish Rebuke. Combine those factors and IMX the marginal gain from PAM drops quite a bit compared to:
GWM
EA
Res: Con (ended up with an uneven con score at 17, but no biggie)
Cha increase

If you start with GWM you will be behind PAM + GWM Vuman even more because you have same accuracy but lack full extra attack + reaction attack.

Also you have 2 slots for whole 1-10 level campaign. There is no way you will be using it to counterspell. Your party Bard, Sor or Wizard will be much better at that. Hellish Rebuke is reaction so it does not work against PAM at all.

No matter if you are PAM or not, the first turn for Hexblade looks exactly the same: Action- Darkness/Shadow of Moil, Bonus Action: Curse. But beginning next turn PAM will start with 3 attacks vs 2 attacks.

Besides calculations above shows all of that.

[Keravath]

I'm a bit confused by your numbers.

In the last example, I think you are adding hexblade curse to the damage (which adds proficiency to damage). This increases the Vhuman by 7 DPR and the half-elf by 12 (the 44 vs 51 comparison). However, the Vhuman still has 3 attacks with PAM so adding in the curse gives the option to be applied 3 times rather than 2 so the Vhuman should benefit more ... so unless I am misunderstanding something there is something off on that calculation.


34.452 - Level 8, Vhuman, PAM+GWM, 18 cha, curse, glaive
37.974 - Level 8, half-elf, GWM, EA, 18 cha, curse, greatsword

In cases without advantage, Vhuman is ahead because they have three attacks.

29.852/16.165 - vhuman - level 8 - glaive vs AC16, PAM, GWM, no curse / normal - no GWM/no advantage/ with PAM
33.510/14.577 - half elf - level 8 - greatsword vs AC16, EA, GWM, no curse / normal - no GWM/no advantage

[Alucard89]

I'm a bit confused by your numbers.

In the last example, I think you are adding hexblade curse to the damage (which adds proficiency to damage). This increases the Vhuman by 7 DPR and the half-elf by 12 (the 44 vs 51 comparison). However, the Vhuman still has 3 attacks with PAM so adding in the curse gives the option to be applied 3 times rather than 2 so the Vhuman should benefit more ... so unless I am misunderstanding something there is something off on that calculation.


34.452 - Level 8, Vhuman, PAM+GWM, 18 cha, curse, glaive
37.974 - Level 8, half-elf, GWM, EA, 18 cha, curse, greatsword

In cases without advantage, Vhuman is ahead because they have three attacks.

29.852/16.165 - vhuman - level 8 - glaive vs AC16, PAM, GWM, no curse / normal - no GWM/no advantage/ with PAM
33.510/14.577 - half elf - level 8 - greatsword vs AC16, EA, GWM, no curse / normal - no GWM/no advantage

Let me run this again in Ludic calculator.

Level 8 Curse on Target. +3 damage per hit from Curse, 19-20 Crit range. Enemy AC 16. Damag is +4 CHA, +1 IPW, +3 Curse, +10 GWM. Total of +18 bonus damage for both using GWM.

Vuman using GWM + Advantage + PAM = 46.62 DPR.

Half-Elf using GWM + Advantage = 53 DPR

That's what calculator shows. I think it's because each time Half-Elf crits- the bonus attack from GWM is added which allows for another 3xd20 to roll.

I can only write what calculator shows. Make sure you check boxes with EA and GWM attack on crit.

[Keravath]

Let me run this again in Ludic calculator.

Level 8 Curse on Target. +3 damage per hit from Curse, 19-20 Crit range. Enemy AC 16. Damag is +4 CHA, +1 IPW, +3 Curse, +10 GWM. Total of +18 bonus damage for both using GWM.

Vuman using GWM + Advantage + PAM = 46.62 DPR.

Half-Elf using GWM + Advantage = 53 DPR

That's what calculator shows. I think it's because each time Half-Elf crits- the bonus attack from GWM is added which allows for another 3xd20 to roll.

I can only write what calculator shows. Make sure you check boxes with EA and GWM attack on crit.

Hi. I may be misinterpreting the sheet - however the plots on the right which list damage values on when to use power attacks (SS, GWM) should already include the +10 damage from SS/GWM since they wouldn't make sense otherwise (since they already factor in the -5 to hit values). In addition, the numbers on the right hand plots are higher than the left hand plot showing damage without power attacks. So I think you should be entering +8 total damage in the sheet and not +18.

However, I did miss the +1 to hit/+1 damage from IPW so my numbers were slightly low.

Yep - it was my mistake misreading numbers from the figures.

[Alucard89]

Hi. I may be misinterpreting the sheet - however the plots on the right which list damage values on when to use power attacks (SS, GWM) should already include the +10 damage from SS/GWM since they wouldn't make sense otherwise (since they already factor in the -5 to hit values). In addition, the numbers on the right hand plots are higher than the left hand plot showing damage without power attacks. So I think you should be entering +8 total damage in the sheet and not +18.

However, I did miss the +1 to hit/+1 damage from IPW so my numbers were slightly low.


Hi. I may be misinterpreting the sheet - however the plots on the right which list damage values on when to use power attacks (SS, GWM) should already include the +10 damage from SS/GWM since they wouldn't make sense otherwise (since they already factor in the -5 to hit values). In addition, the numbers on the right hand plots are higher than the left hand plot showing damage without power attacks. So I think you should be entering +8 total damage in the sheet and not +18.

However, I did miss the +1 to hit/+1 damage from IPW so my numbers were slightly low.

I don't look at power table as the Output table is more clear so I just simulate GWM attacks there and ignore the "When to Power Attack" one.

So for me it looks like this:

The bonus to hit is +3 (because -5 from GWM), damage is 2d6 + 18 (10 GWM, +4 CHA, +3 Curse, +1 IPW). Target AC is 16. Boxes checked are: EA and GWM hit on crit.

Results looks like this:

https://i.imgur.com/bUbqNb3.png

That's how I was doing it.

[Hael]

If I recall right, it’s not until tier4 where the HE comes out ahead in pure dpr.

The one caveat here, is that faerie fire and an additional darkness coming from the half drow option is actually a big deal.

The lack of slots is really harsh for a good portion of the lower to mid levels, and having an extra darkness mattered a lot in practice. PAM is the clear winner tho for the first two lvls.

IMO it’s a wash

[Benny89]

If I recall right, it’s not until tier4 where the HE comes out ahead in pure dpr.

The one caveat here, is that faerie fire and an additional darkness coming from the half drow option is actually a big deal.

The lack of slots is really harsh for a good portion of the lower to mid levels, and having an extra darkness mattered a lot in practice. PAM is the clear winner tho for the first two lvls.

IMO it’s a wash


Lack of slots is not bad if you have propery 2 short rests minimum per day. That is 6 Darkness/Shadows of Moil/Hexes per day. It's enough really to have mostly 1 spell per fight and in 99% cases you just use SoM or Darkness. I never had problem with that, but my DM is always giving proper number of short rests per day. 2 minimum, sometimes 3, but mostly 2.

Besides you saw calculations above - Half-Elf starts to get ahead much earlier than Tier 4. Tier 3 he will already be ahead in terms of DPR. Level 8 is where EA already starts to kick in.

Ludic was explaining to me that DPR on paper and probability + proper math are two different things.

[Alucard89]

I was calculating further and discovered that Half-Elf Hexblade can close the DPR gap by lot vs Vuman on level 5 vs AC 17 and get slightly ahead on AC 18.

How? By using Double Bladed Scimitar. I got this idea because DBS is official weapon in DnD system, but DMs may make it hard or impossible to obtain that weapon because it's so rare. However, Hexblade does not have this problem- he can just summon it like any other weapon: "You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it."

Now the DPR of level 5, 16 CHA, PAM + GWM Variant Human vs AC 17 target is: 29 DPR when attacking with advantage.

Now if we take a look at level 5, Half-Elf with Elven Accuracy + Double Bladed Scimitar vs AC 17 we get: 27 DPR.

Vs AC 18 however, the Vuman ends with 25 DPR, while Half-Elf with 26 DPR.

So Double Bladed Scimitar closes gap on level 5 to merely 2-1 damage difference. Which is good info for those who want to play Half-Elf Hexblade on levels 1-10.

Of course still Vuman gets 10 feet reach + PAM OA attack while Half-Elf gets Drow Magic/Cantrip/Extra Skills + adv. vs Charms. So overall I say we can get pretty even on level 5.


If you however obtain +4 CHA Dark Gift and end up by level 8 with 22 CHA, the DPR on level 8 vs AC 17 is pretty much even:

Half Elf + EA + GWM using Greatsword: 47 DPR vs Vuman using PAM + GWM: 46 DPR. Both with advantage of course.

VS AC 18: Half-Elf ends up with 44.8 DPR vs Vuman 37 DPR.

So at level 8 Half-Elf wins as before but only clearly at AC 18 +.

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It's all interesting so I thought I will share :)

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Vs target cursed with Hexblade Curse:

AC 17, level 5 Half Elf using DBS + EEA: 37.5 DPR
AC 17, level 5 Half Elf using DBS + EEA: 36.5 DPR

AC 17, level 5 Vuman PAM + GWM: 36 DPR
AC 18, level 5 Vuman PAM + GWM: 31 DPR