God of Necromancy?

[Ekzanimus]

I have a question about 5e world lore. Is there a dedicated god of necromancy and undead now? In times past there was Velsharoon with a clearly defined portfolio of necromancy and undeath but he was killed in 4e and there was no information about his resurrection. Now we have Myrkul who likes necromancy and undead but is a god of Death and we have Raven Queen who likes mindless undead but is not very fond of mortals seeking immortality as sapient undead beings. Also there is drow goddesss of undead and necromancy but she is very clearly specific for drow pantheon.
And another question - what happened with Dweomerheart after resurrection of Mystra, Azuth and Savras? Where are they living now? It was a divine realm of Mystra, Savras, Azuth and Velsharoon until it exploded during Spellplague but now three of four its former inhabitants are alive and well again...

[Millstone85]

I have a question about 5e world lore. Is there a dedicated god of necromancy and undead now?There are several, including Nerull, Wee Jas, Chemosh, and the Keeper.

But since your interest seems to be with the Faerûnian pantheon, then I would say Myrkul. Yes, he is the god of death, and Kelemvor apparently convinced him to do some honest psychopomp work, but his priests still promote the creation of the undead.


we have Raven Queen who likes mindless undead but is not very fond of mortals seeking immortality as sapient undead beings.Which Raven Queen?

The goddess from the 4e setting of Nentir Vale? I believe that one is still unheard of in the Realms.

The not-quite goddess who used to be an elven queen, according to MToF? Her only beef with the undead is that many serve Vecna, who is trying to steal her throne.

The Matron of Ravens from Critical Role? I haven't read EGtW yet.


And another question - what happened with Dweomerheart after resurrection of Mystra, Azuth and Savras? Where are they living now? It was a divine realm of Mystra, Savras, Azuth and Velsharoon until it exploded during Spellplague but now three of four its former inhabitants are alive and well again...No clue. SCAG mentions the Spellplague, and how the Sundering has since returned lands such as Unther and Tymanchebar to their respective places on Toril and Abeir, but the book is suspiciously silent on larger planar issues. Did the Abyss return from the Elemental Chaos, or are we supposed to forget that ever happened? Probably the latter.

[Ekzanimus]

There are several, including Nerull, Wee Jas, Chemosh, and the Keeper
But there are some problems with this list - if I am not mistaken Nerull is dead, killed by the Raven Queen. And many things that were associated with Nerull are now somehow associated with Orcus - for example, Kyuss, who was a priest of Nerull is now described as the follower of Orcus in the description of the Spawn of Kyuss. And Wee Jas now is mentioned as a goddess of the Grave domain in the description of this domain in XGtE among other gods whose followers seek to destroy undead. I sincerely hope that it will be disproven later but it is what we have now.
And Myrkul now is in a very strange spot - he is the god of Death and he tries very hard to remind everybody about mortality and inevitability of death, so... why would he support a concept of becoming undead to cheat death? His followers are necromancers who create mindless undead as we can clearly see in the BG:DiA but will he support wannabe liches or vampires or other seekers of immortality?


The not-quite goddess who used to be an elven queen, according to MToF? Her only beef with the undead is that many serve Vecna, who is trying to steal her throne.

I meant her. And yes I can't now find where I've taken this thing about allowing raising of the mindless undead but hating sapient undead from. May be some of the UA so I apologize.

Did the Abyss return from the Elemental Chaos, or are we supposed to forget that ever happened? Probably the latter.
This is also a very good question because other events which are connected with it ARE mentioned - for example Asmodeus is now a god and Azuth returned as was described in some novels. It really irks me that we have so many holes in the lore of 5E...

[Millstone85]

if I am not mistaken Nerull is dead, killed by the Raven Queen.In Nentir Vale lore, yes. The same lore where Tharizdun created the Abyss by throwing a piece of a dead universe into the Elemental Chaos, and Asmodeus later journeyed to the heart of the Abyss so he could steal some of its power and use it to dethrone He Who Was, a benevolent god who ruled over the astral dominion of Baator.

This was already in contradiction with Forgotten Realms lore in 4e. The Abyss didn't become part of the Elemental Chaos until Asmodeus ate Azuth and used the divine boost to somehow throw an entire plane into another. Also, the Shadowfell was created by Shar, and Kelemvor is the only god of the dead. The Raven Queen? Who is that?

And now we are in 5e. I would assume that the only Nerull is the one found in the PHB, under "Deities of Greyhawk" page 295, and he is very much alive.

Ah, the joys of canon across multiple editions and settings.


And many things that were associated with Nerull are now somehow associated with Orcus - for example, Kyuss, who was a priest of Nerull is now described as the follower of Orcus in the description of the Spawn of Kyuss. And Wee Jas now is mentioned as a goddess of the Grave domain in the description of this domain in XGtE among other gods whose followers seek to destroy undead. I sincerely hope that it will be disproven later but it is what we have now.Alright, I actually don't know Greyhawk that well, sorry.


And Myrkul now is in a very strange spot - he is the god of Death and he tries very hard to remind everybody about mortality and inevitability of death, so... why would he support a concept of becoming undead to cheat death? His followers are necromancers who create mindless undead as we can clearly see in the BG:DiA but will he support wannabe liches or vampires or other seekers of immortality?I hear you, but Myrkul will probably never be that kind of lawful-neutral reaperman. The ******* wields the scythe however he pleases.

You know who could have been that kind of god for the Realms? Gorion's Ward, that's who. I really wonder how BG3 is going to describe his/her fate after ToB. Incidently, part of the story will revolve around Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul reuniting for some Dead(Not!)-Three shenanigans.

[Witty Username]

Myrkul is heavily motivated by using the dead for his own purpose. Part of why he claimed god of the dead when he became a god was for this reason. He wants people to keep dying so his powerbase keeps going. At least before he died and lost most of his power.
Jergal is more of the fatalistic approach, believing the world will die eventually and suffering and pain for that entire process, so his worshipers take steps so the world is keeping a consistent timeline to inevitable death. And he is mildly against necromancy, believing it slows this process but will encourage it in his worshipers if it has sufficient utility.
Shar may be pro-necromancy but I don't think her description goes either way.
I would expect that Mystra returned to living in Elysium, since that is where the dweomerheart was before, just not in the dweomerheart.

[Ekzanimus]

I hear you, but Myrkul will probably never be that kind of lawful-neutral reaperman. The ******* wields the scythe however he pleases.
And I sincerly hope that it will stay that way. :) But also I am very fond of some changes that 5E made about two of the Dead Three - Bane and Myrkul now look more socially acceptable. I just hope that 5E will flesh out their portfolios more. I myself have no problems with Myrkul being the god of Death and Necromancy. I loved Velsharoon but Myrkul is just more interesting as a character. I just hope that Wizards will state it clearly somewhere. Because now in Faerûnian pantheon we have only one clearly defined god of necromancy and undead and Kiaransalee is gated behind being a drow.

You know who could have been that kind of god for the Realms? Gorion's Ward, that's who. I really wonder how BG3 is going to describe his/her fate after ToB. Incidently, part of the story will revolve around Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul reuniting for some Dead(Not!)-Three shenanigans.
I think that they will describe his (and Gorion's Ward was officially a "he") as is described in the lore - died several years ago fighting his last living sibling giving new life to the Bhaal. Somewhat boring end to the loved character but oh well.

Jergal is more of the fatalistic approach, believing the world will die eventually and suffering and pain for that entire process, so his worshipers take steps so the world is keeping a consistent timeline to inevitable death. And he is mildly against necromancy, believing it slows this process but will encourage it in his worshipers if it has sufficient utility.
It is really funny to think about the process of dying in the Forgotten Realms. Dying as a process is governed by Myrkul who likes undead and necromancy. Registering the dead is governed by Jergal who is more or less neutral about undead and necromancy. And judging and governing the dead after their arrival is Kelemvor who hates necromancy and undead. If you remember that some cemetries are governed by clergy of Kelemvor, some - by clergy of Jergal and some - by clergy of Myrkul, you have a very interesting question - how many bodies can be legally raised as undead...

[Fynzmirs]

Current status of Velsharoon is kinda murky. We don't really have enough sources to say if he is really dead or not. He's a freaking lich-god, so his demise doesn't seem that likely. Also, he has a tendency of messing with time-flow.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think that Orcus has been a deity of the undead, or a Lord of the Undead, ever since he arrived in OD&D. But he's a demon prince more than he's a deity, so maybe he does not qualify ... but I think he has a few cults following him.

I realize that lore has mutated a bit over the various editions, but in his original form I think you can put him squarely in the "deity over undeath" ... but this is back when such beings were "statted" so perhaps he does not fit into the current m model.


Orcus furthermore is able to summon certain of the undead, for he is their Prince. If random calling is desired by the referee the following chart is suggested:
1 — 3-24 wights
2 —3-18 wraiths
3 — 3-12 spectres
4 — 2-8 vampires If we look at the Wand of Orcus artifact in the 5e DMG, it sure looks like it's meant for a necromancer ...

[Ekzanimus]

Current status of Velsharoon is kinda murky. We don't really have enough sources to say if he is really dead or not. He's a freaking lich-god, so his demise doesn't seem that likely. Also, he has a tendency of messing with time-flow.
Yes, Wizards can return him but I don't think that it is highly probable. They resurrected Myrkul who takes more or less the same spot and they resurrected three other denizens of Dweomerheart who died with Velsharoon - Mystra, Azuth and Savras are mentioned in the SCAG and Velsharoon is nowhere to be seen. It is a shame but I doubt that we will see him again. But it is possible - gods in D&D have troubles with staying dead.

I think that Orcus has been a deity of the undead, or a Lord of the Undead, ever since he arrived in OD&D. But he's a demon prince more than he's a deity, so maybe he does not qualify ... but I think he has a few cults following him.
But Orcus is not a god. He is demon lord - a very powerful entity, yes, but not a deity. Yes, he has his cults as every other demon lord but he is more of a Warlock patron-class creature. It is same with archdevils of Nine Hells who are more or less equal in power with demon lords but Asmodeus is one and only archdevil who is also a god. Orcus is named Demon Prince of Undeath because it is his sphere of interest - he creates undead and spreads undeath over all of the multiverse in the same manner as Zuggtmoy for example creates and spreads fungi and spores. But their cultists aren't clerics. Demon lords do not grant spells - they can only grant some supernatural boons or curses. And they aren't powered by mortal faith - they are what they are.

[Millstone85]

But Orcus is not a god. He is demon lord - a very powerful entity, yes, but not a deity. Yes, he has his cults as every other demon lord but he is more of a Warlock patron-class creature. It is same with archdevils of Nine Hells who are more or less equal in power with demon lords but Asmodeus is one and only archdevil who is also a god.Hmm, I can imagine Asmodeus being the only divine archdevil (though the goddess Tiamat might as well be an archdevil at this point) but I have got to wonder why Lolth would be the only deity among the demon lords.

[Ekzanimus]

Hmm, I can imagine Asmodeus being the only divine archdevil (though the goddess Tiamat might as well be an archdevil at this point) but I have got to wonder why Lolth would be the only deity among the demon
Well, the thing is, we don't know. There are other gods who live in the Nine Hells and the Abyss. Some of them even have or had there own layers there. And some of the demon lords may or may not be known as gods somewhere or somewhen. And some of the gods who rule layers of the Abyss may be also demon lords. But for now we do not have enough information about it.

[Silly Name]

Hmm, I can imagine Asmodeus being the only divine archdevil (though the goddess Tiamat might as well be an archdevil at this point) but I have got to wonder why Lolth would be the only deity among the demon lords.

D&D is a bit finicky on why it differentiates Archdevils and Demon Lords from Gods - the first two groups often feature characters certainly comparable in power with the Gods.

As far as I can tell, the big difference between Gods and Archfiends is that Gods suffer from depending on prayer and belief for power and even continued existence, while Archfiends don't depend on mortal belief.

As far as the Forgotten Realms are concerned, it's up to Ao to decide who gets to be a god and who doesn't, but the criteria he uses are inscrutable (and probably nonsensical anyway - dude made Cyric a god!)

[BloodBrandy]

Wouldn't it be Orcus? Yes, he's technically a demon lord but IIRC he reached godhood at one point, and it's not like people don't worship Demon Lords anyways

[JackPhoenix]

Hmm, I can imagine Asmodeus being the only divine archdevil (though the goddess Tiamat might as well be an archdevil at this point) but I have got to wonder why Lolth would be the only deity among the demon lords.

Because Lolth was a goddess before she was kicked out into the Abyss and became a demon. Tiamat is a god, but she's not a devil, she just lives in Hell, just like a bunch of other evil gods. Asmodeus started as a... something... before becoming archdevil, and achieved godhood later. Orcus achieved godhood as Tenebrous in the past, but got killed and revived as "mere" demon lord, with his divine personality turned into a vestige.


As far as I can tell, the big difference between Gods and Archfiends is that Gods suffer from depending on prayer and belief for power and even continued existence, while Archfiends don't depend on mortal belief.

Only in FR, because Ao's a richard.

[Millstone85]

Orcus achieved godhood as Tenebrous in the past, but got killed and revived as "mere" demon lord, with his divine personality turned into a vestige.Interesting!


As far as I can tell, the big difference between Gods and Archfiends is that Gods suffer from depending on prayer and belief for power and even continued existence, while Archfiends don't depend on mortal belief.
Only in FR, because Ao's a richard.Isn't that how the Powers work in Planescape too? In fact, speaking of vestiges, the DMG defines them as "deities who have lost nearly all their worshipers and are considered dead, from a mortal perspective" (p11) which I took to imply that 5e gods are sustained by faith.

[Fynzmirs]

Ed Greenwood has already confirmed that Big V is fine

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/10/11/is-velsharoon-still-active-within-the-realms/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjOmN7bzPvoAhVmWxUIHdyKAbkQFjACegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1OLuOQVo-90M9yyRLlPcVz&ampcf=1

[hamishspence]

Orcus achieved godhood as Tenebrous in the past, but got killed and revived as "mere" demon lord, with his divine personality turned into a vestige.


Strictly, he achieved godhood first, then got slain and became the undead god Tenebrous before his revival as the "regular demon lord Orcus".

[Ekzanimus]

Ed Greenwood has already confirmed that Big V is fine

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/10/11/is-velsharoon-still-active-within-the-realms/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwjOmN7bzPvoAhVmWxUIHdyKAbkQFjACegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1OLuOQVo-90M9yyRLlPcVz&ampcf=1
It is VERY interesting. And VERY strange. We have no information about Velsharoon since 4th edition but this answer leaves a slim hope.

[KorvinStarmast]

Here's an idea: maybe the other gods don't want a god of necromancy to pollute their pantheons.

As any druid would tell you, the raising of the undead is unnatural; souls are supposed to eventually get back to their "home" in the afterlife for the faithful (if we presume a mostly FR basis for all of this) - see also Kellemvor's wall thing.

[Nagog]

Honestly there seems to be so much that is canon and isn't canon and all that jazz, I think they're leaving it intentionally ambiguous so DMs can do what they want.

[Ekzanimus]

Here's an idea: maybe the other gods don't want a god of necromancy to pollute their pantheons.
It is just not very likely. There are - or were at least - a lot of gods whose portfolio included necromancy. They were already mentioned here - Nerull, Wee Jas, Velsharoon, Jergal, Myrkul, Chemosh and many others.

As any druid would tell you, the raising of the undead is unnatural; souls are supposed to eventually get back to their "home" in the afterlife for the faithful (if we presume a mostly FR basis for all of this) - see also Kellemvor's wall thing.
Necromancy is as natural as any other form of magic. Kelemvor's dislike for undead is just his own point of view, not some great universal truth. Necromancy is a legitimate part of magic and as such - a part of the universe. And it needs a god who will be supervising it just like anything else - if I am not mistaken it was a reason behind Ao granting portfolio of Necromancy to Velsharoon for example.

Honestly there seems to be so much that is canon and isn't canon and all that jazz, I think they're leaving it intentionally ambiguous so DMs can do what they want.
That's a very big problem of 5th edition in my opinion - WotC is trying so hard to implement strange things like worlds of Magic the Gathering but they do not have a clearly written background even for Forgotten Realms after all this years.

[KorvinStarmast]

Necromancy is as natural as any other form of magic. Not according to druids. Suggest a read up on the Druid class in the PHB. :smallwink:
Hey, look at this.

Druids accept that which is cruel in nature, and they hate that which is unnatural, including abberations(such as beholders and mind flayers) and undead (such as zombies and vampires) :smalleek:

EDIT:
I finally found it.
There was a neat thread (whoa, nearly 4 years ago) that had some interesting ideas on there being a quest to make Orcus a deity (a Warlock is where it started). Not sure if that interests you, but that might be a cool quest to make for The Big Picture if you are DMing this idea about locking in a deity of Necromancy.

[Ekzanimus]

Not according to druids. Suggest a read up on the Druid class in the PHB.
There are druids and there are druids. Spore Druids, introduced in the Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica, view necromancy and undead as natural parts of the cycle and have no qualms with raising undead themselves. So we can't use druids as some final arbiter - they have their own opinions which are only what they are: opinions. ;)

There was a neat thread (whoa, nearly 4 years ago) that had some interesting ideas on there being a quest to make Orcus a deity (a Warlock is where it started). Not sure if that interests you, but that might be a cool quest to make for The Big Picture if you are DMing this idea about locking in a deity of Necromancy.
It is very interesting and I will search it out, thanks, but first of all I am interested in the official status of necromancy's god for Forgotten Realms. It seems that for now we are looking at the "mortal god of death and necromancy" Myrkul as he is described in the BG:DiA. It will be very interesting to see what exactly WotC means saying "mortal gods"...

[KorvinStarmast]

Myrkul as he is described in the BG:DiA. It will be very interesting to see what exactly WotC means saying "mortal gods"... He's probably as good as you'll get for the time being, if I understand what you are trying to pin down.

(Now this is a personal taste thing - I quite frankly find nothing of value in the Ravnica book, so I won't comment on the Spore Druids; but as I look back, I think I'm guilty of a derail, so I'll stop and wish you great success in your quest).

[masamune1]

To be frank, I think Demon Lords are just a subclass of gods. Godhood in DnD is really about power level and worshippers, and Demon Lords are just demons that have achieved a certain level of power and usually have a few thousand worshippers across various cults.

All Demon Lords are Intermediate or (more commonly) Lesser Deities, or at the bare minimum demigods though I think that's better suited to their top subordinates like Pit Fiends. It is basically no different from calling the ascended human deities Human Lords, or ascended Elf deities Elven Lords, even though DnD doesn't do that. It's more of a racial distinction than anything else.

If you're a powerful immortal entity that rules an entire layer (or especially, several layers) of a Plane and have thousands of worshippers, you meet all the qualifications for a DnD god. Saying that Demon Lords aren't gods is just being racist against demons- shame on you.

Orcus is a Lesser God of Necromancy, whether it is official or not.

[Samayu]

There's probably not much call for a god of necromancy. I would think that most people who are into raising the dead, either themselves or as minions, aren't all that interested in worshiping other beings.

[JackPhoenix]

To be frank, I think Demon Lords are just a subclass of gods. Godhood in DnD is really about power level and worshippers, and Demon Lords are just demons that have achieved a certain level of power and usually have a few thousand worshippers across various cults.

All Demon Lords are Intermediate or (more commonly) Lesser Deities, or at the bare minimum demigods though I think that's better suited to their top subordinates like Pit Fiends. It is basically no different from calling the ascended human deities Human Lords, or ascended Elf deities Elven Lords, even though DnD doesn't do that. It's more of a racial distinction than anything else.

If you're a powerful immortal entity that rules an entire layer (or especially, several layers) of a Plane and have thousands of worshippers, you meet all the qualifications for a DnD god. Saying that Demon Lords aren't gods is just being racist against demons- shame on you.

Orcus is a Lesser God of Necromancy, whether it is official or not.

Gods have clerics, demon lords don't.
Gods can hear and answer prayers, demon lords can't.
Gods actually have controls over some aspect of reality, demon lords don't.
There's no such thing as "intermediate deity". There are greater deities.... who are pretty much completely beyond the reach of mortals... and there are lesser deities, who are living somewhere in the planes, and can get their asses kicked by mortals (see: Rise of Tiamat). There are also quasi-deities, which lack true divine powers, but still have divine origins. Demon lords don't fall into this category.

Power level or how much land you control has nothing to do with godhood. Ancient dragon may be more powerful than a demon lord, and have a tribe (or three) of kobold worshippers, but that doesn't make it a god. There are actual gods with few, if any, worshippers and no real place to call their own, and they are still more divine than most demon lords (with Lolth and formerly-but-not-currently-Orcus being an exception, due to them being actual gods *in addition* to being demon lords) will ever be. Hell, mortal demigods are more divine than demon lords, even though they may be just normal people with few special abilities.

Orcus is not a god of any kind.

[jmberry]

Going by just the D&D setting gods from the PH5E, we have Myrkul (FR), Nerull (GH), Wee Jas (GH), Chemosh (DL), the Keeper (Eberron), and the Blood of Vol (Eberron). I'd be willing to add Bhaal (FR), Cyric (FR), Shar (FR), Talona (FR), Incabulos (GH), Iuz (GH) and Takhisis (DL) as definite "maybes." Necromancy also seems like something the Black Robes of Nuitari (DL) would mess around with, but their wizards, not clerics.

[jmberry]

Going by just the D&D setting gods from the PH5E, we have Myrkul (FR), Nerull (GH), Wee Jas (GH), Chemosh (DL), the Keeper (Eberron), and the Blood of Vol (Eberron). I'd be willing to add Bhaal (FR), Cyric (FR), Shar (FR), Talona (FR), Incabulos (GH), Iuz (GH) and Takhisis (DL) as definite "maybes." Necromancy also seems like something the Black Robes of Nuitari (DL) would mess around with, but their wizards, not clerics.

That said, if you're looking for something FR specific, I'd say most people interested in necromancy would either be wizards or warlocks of the Undying Pact (so even if Velsharoon doesn't grant domains he could still serve as a patron).