Hand spells - are they worth it? [3.5/PF]

[Aotrs Commander]

So, as I near (but not yet quite approach!) completion of my spells revision, there is an outstanding job to do, which entails dealing with the various "Hand" spells (in 3.5, the Bigby's).

Clenched Fist
Crushing Hand
Disrupting Hand
Forceful Hand
Grasping Hand
Helpful Hand
Interposing Hand
Striking Fist
Tripping Hand
Warding Hand

And I ask myself the qurestion - should I bother? Does anyone esle actually use them?

For my part, if anyone has ever used any of these in my time as player or DM, it only might have been in the earliest days of 3.5 and I'm only saying that so as not to make the blanket statement that no-one has ever used one, because I might have forgotten.

Certainly, as a player or a DM, I have never considered them as something to pick up compared to other choices. (I have never found the flavour even to be very interesting.)

At time of typing, there are currently approximately 1890 Wizard spells on the list (interestingly, still less than PF's just over 1900, but I've not quite finished the port yet), so they are competing with lots of other (better) stuff.

Can I see that some of them might have niche use? Yes, but I see that about anything. (During the Great Forum Break, I did a thread on Child-Scent and found probably the only person ever to have gotten any milage out of it by pre-empting a missing baby scenario.) My question then is rather is their niche so small and insignificant co mpared to any and all available other spells as to not make it worth the effort of putting them on the list?

Alternatively, if it is thought that they are worth salvaging, which ones, and what might be something to do to make them more enticing, as from my memory they are generally, at best, fairly sub-par spells?

[AvatarVecna]

So, as I near (but not yet quite approach!) completion of my spells revision, there is an outstanding job to do, which entails dealing with the various "Hand" spells (in 3.5, the Bigby's).

Clenched Fist
Crushing Hand
Disrupting Hand
Forceful Hand
Grasping Hand
Helpful Hand
Interposing Hand
Striking Fist
Tripping Hand
Warding Hand

And I ask myself the qurestion - should I bother? Does anyone esle actually use them?

For my part, if anyone has ever used any of these in my time as player or DM, it only might have been in the earliest days of 3.5 and I'm only saying that so as not to make the blanket statement that no-one has ever used one, because I might have forgotten.

Certainly, as a player or a DM, I have never considered them as something to pick up compared to other choices. (I have never found the flavour even to be very interesting.)

At time of typing, there are currently approximately 1890 Wizard spells on the list (interestingly, still less than PF's just over 1900, but I've not quite finished the port yet), so they are competing with lots of other (better) stuff.

Can I see that some of them might have niche use? Yes, but I see that about anything. (During the Great Forum Break, I did a thread on Child-Scent and found probably the only person ever to have gotten any milage out of it by pre-empting a missing baby scenario.) My question then is rather is their niche so small and insignificant co mpared to any and all available other spells as to not make it worth the effort of putting them on the list?

Alternatively, if it is thought that they are worth salvaging, which ones, and what might be something to do to make them more enticing, as from my memory they are generally, at best, fairly sub-par spells?

If you're already reworking 3.5, and you want to include them in some capacity, there's a simple alternative: make them an Evocation version of summoning, albeit one that requires more direction than summos generally do. Take inspiration from the Astral Construct power. A basic first level Hand has a lot of capabilities, like punching and grappling and blocking and shoving, but is only so good at them, but if you power it up (via CL or upcasting), it gets substantially stronger - maybe in ways you can direct, or maybe just an all-purpose upgrade.

EDIT: Alternatively, if you've got some of the higher-level capabilities that you don't want a 1st level hand to have (like, not that a 1st lvl hand shouldn't have numbers that big, but a 1st lvl hand shouldn't be able to grapple or bull rush at all in your opinion), you can make those capabilities be unlocks at higher spell levels.

[Endarire]

My first epic 3.0 Wizard used Bigby's L9 Hand spell and would have been much more effective if the GM understood how grappling and counterspelling rules worked. (He effectively ignored the effects of these spells due to group ignorance.)

Treantmonk rated many Wizard spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?569912-Treantmonk-s-Guide-to-Wizard-Spells-(as-seen-on-BGO-restored-by-Uvexar)) many years ago, and the Hand spells were there. Consider his comments.

[Psyren]

It might help to understand what exactly you mean by "salvaging." For what they do they seem to be generally fine at the levels they're at. Are you looking to buff them? Add capabilities? Change attributes like range or duration or SR?

[Khedrac]

The main one my characters have used is Bigby's Grasping Hand - it can be very effective at shutting down a single opponent (even if they can make the DC25+spell level concentration check to cast or use an SLA, most spells are straight off the table as not possible to cast when grappled). This was in mid-to upper teens level games, and while I would completely agree that the others are less useful, remember that a higher level spell can be instructed to act as a lower level one, just using its higher strength modifier...

[Fizban]

You know, this is the first time I've ever noticed that the Hands actually have hit points, and not very many at that. I thought their targeting info was just for Disintegrate and whatnot like the Sword, but apparently not.

In any case, Interposing Hand got ultra nerfed, 3.0 gave +10 AC vs the chosen foe. 3.5 only gives +4, and is at the same level as nonsense like Improved Blink. At the original +10 I'd say it easily still has a place. The Forceful Hand is the same benefit plus a constant pushback, and the rest have easily measured combat values. The only question is whether they should be invulnerable, have a caster level based hp (better for arcanists, worse for Clerics that get it via domain), or stay as-is. Dunno any of the rest of your project, so yeah.

[Kurald Galain]

In any case, Interposing Hand got ultra nerfed, 3.0 gave +10 AC vs the chosen foe. 3.5 only gives +4
Yeah, that's inferior to the first-level Shield spell (which gives +4 AC vs everything, not just vs one opponent; and has a longer duration to boot). Likewise, Grasping Hand strikes me as probably inferior to Resilient Sphere.

Pushing Hand is decent if you can push the enemy off a cliff or into something nasty. Clenched Fist is decent because it stuns on a hit.

Don't forget Bixby's Expressive Single Digit, either.

[Aotrs Commander]

If you're already reworking 3.5, and you want to include them in some capacity, there's a simple alternative: make them an Evocation version of summoning, albeit one that requires more direction than summos generally do. Take inspiration from the Astral Construct power. A basic first level Hand has a lot of capabilities, like punching and grappling and blocking and shoving, but is only so good at them, but if you power it up (via CL or upcasting), it gets substantially stronger - maybe in ways you can direct, or maybe just an all-purpose upgrade.

EDIT: Alternatively, if you've got some of the higher-level capabilities that you don't want a 1st level hand to have (like, not that a 1st lvl hand shouldn't have numbers that big, but a 1st lvl hand shouldn't be able to grapple or bull rush at all in your opinion), you can make those capabilities be unlocks at higher spell levels.

I sort of don't want to do that extensive a revision, it was really a case of determining first whether they were all trash-tier spells (and thus not going to be ever missed if I dumped them) and if there were borderline, whether there was anything worth nudging up in the direction of useful.

General consensus seems to be that there is some utility to some of them, so I guess I will have to go through each one individually anyway (as I will have to copy them up1 anyway).

I DID, however, crib sme of that idea last night, when I revised the notoriously awful Luminous Assassin, where in I changed flavour to make them semi-solid light constructs and made them Evocation, not Conjuration.

(I, obviously, also changed the stats, using a rough basis of CRs from Summon Monster and making them outsider-with-SA/Evasion/Uncanny Dodge, rather than what was clearly a (too-low-level) human rogue with the serial numbers filed off. So they should be more comparible to other summons now, except they get summoned in as Standard by default and they have a much more limited array of control options and no spell-like abilities or anything; just a little bit of flat DR and a touch of Fast Healing instead of potions. It's possible they might need a touch of a tone-down (see in actual play!), but if so, it at least means I stradled the gap.)


It might help to understand what exactly you mean by "salvaging." For what they do they seem to be generally fine at the levels they're at. Are you looking to buff them? Add capabilities? Change attributes like range or duration or SR?

Mostly if the concensus was they were only just not viable, but it looks like I'll be going through them all anyway. Eh, worth a shot, and, as, I say, this thread at least helped along an entirely unrelated set of spells, so it was worth the ask...!



1A lot of this is solely because of them being renamed to non-D&D-IP names (like they are in the SRD/PF), since we play the amjority of times on non-D&D-IP worlds, because the current situation of the page references in the spell lists referring to "[Famous Wizard]'s" gets tedious after a while. I thought that would be a trivial thing to manage when I compiled the master lists some time ago; but after the UMPEENTH time trying to find, say, Acid Arrow under "A" in the (3.5) PHB instead of "M" for "Melf's," I determined that this pass through, ALL spells that have gotten just renamed are still going into the master spells document, along with all the other spells that have been mechanically altered (even if it's just a PF descripton addition), PF-imported spells (of which there is not a hard-copy otherwise to refer to) and homebrew spells.

(I also very deliberately either used Pathfinder's psionics renamed or renamed powers myself to completely eliminate the ENORMOUS ARSE-PAIN in the XPH of spells listed as "[spell], Psionic" verses "Psionic [spell]" which alternately persist through that book with no rhyme or reason, meaning that you GARENTEE the first time you tried to find one, the first permutation of the name you check is going to be under the other name format...)

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, so, I ahve rached the ppint where Bigby is basically the last proud nail that needs to be hammered.

I have gone through the spells individually. I have outright deleted a couple (Disrupting Hand/Interposing Hand for being just too crap to ever get used, folded Striking Fist into and upgraded Battering Ram, rebuilt Tripping Hand (now Fort save or be entangled, faill the Fort and make a Ref save and fall prone as well, Str check to break out) and Warding Hand (no save, str check each round of move half-speed) as un-attackable gravity spells - it was conveniant, as a few more of those fitted in with what I as doing anyway.

This leaves me with the rest, which are basically the core five.

(Sidenote: Slapping Hand isn't ACTUALLY a Bigby's spell - i.e it is at least not "Bigby'" in SpC, so I have zero reason to need to touch it since is doesnt need a rename, so Im not going to.)

I have considered seriously dropping them totally, or reflavouring them into more gravity effects (part of, I think, the issue is I have also never liked the spells on flavour1, let alone their... dubious mechanics.)

However, partly taking AvatarVecna's idea and partky from Psyren's suggestions in another of my threads, I think the better option would be to follow 5E's idea and compress the five core ones into a single spell. Now, 5E did it as a 5th level spell, but it of course scales on spell slots. I would put it at at least 6th (Forceful Hand - Interposing Hand being so situationally narrow in usage that it was, as mentioned, already on the chopping block), but I could see an arguement for making it 7th, as Grasping Hand seems to be the one that is generally considered the best.

Thoughts?




1No, generally I'm not a huge fan of Green Lantern's power set either, in that regard...

[NotASpiderSwarm]

If you're not keeping the flavor, then the spells probably aren't worth saving. The flavor is what keeps them from just being "weirdly limited telekinesis". That said, a ground-up rebuild is probably in order, since the default balance of them is all over the place.

7 spells, lvls 1-7, each of which creates a hand that attempts to impose a condition 1x per round for rounds/level. Balance them so that the "grappling hand" is a better grappler than the best Summon Monster grappler of that level, but far less flexible. Same with Tripping etc. The spells are a way for a not-very-creative wizard to create something to accomplish a specific goal on the battlefield, one that's not dependent on the nature of the battlefield or the opposition at all.

[Him]

When i used the spells I found that they covered one of the big weaknesses of the mage, which was pure physical damage. Had great fun.

That was a long time ago though.

But yeah grapple rules can be confusing, making a flowchart I found to be a great help to keep track with grappling what was going on at the time.

[Unavenger]

I have used them. Interposing hand is a bit weak in a lot of cases, but ruling that everyone on my side of the hand got cover from everyone on their side of the hand helped immeasurably. If you wanted to buff it a bit more - and I'd recommend you do that rather than drop it, 'cause I'd actually love it if bigby's whatevering hand spells were available earlier, rather than being pushed back later, 'cause they're cool dammit - you could do something like this:

Bixby's Interposing Hand
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: 10-ft. hand
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Interposing hand creates a Large magic hand that appears between you and your opponents. You may designate a target when you cast a spell: this floating, disembodied hand then moves to remain between the two of you, regardless of where you move or how the opponent tries to get around it. Nothing can fool the hand—it sticks with the selected opponent in spite of darkness, invisibility, polymorphing, or any other attempt at hiding or disguise. The hand does not pursue an opponent, however. Alternatively, you may put the hand in a specified location, from which it will not move when your opponents move.

The hand moves to impede enemies and their projectiles while allowing allies to pass. It provides all allies with cover, so long as the attack is made through the hand. Enemies cannot move through the hand's space except by pushing it back with a bull rush. The hand gets a +10 bonus to its strength check to oppose the bull rush (+6 for Strength 23, +4 for being Large). Allies can move through the hand's space without issue, though they cannot end their movement there.

An interposing hand is 10 feet long and about that wide with its fingers outstretched. It has as many hit points as you do when you’re undamaged, and its AC is 20 (-1 size, +11 natural). It takes damage as a normal creature, but most magical effects that don’t cause damage do not affect it.

The hand never provokes attacks of opportunity from opponents. It cannot push through a wall of force or enter an antimagic field, but it suffers the full effect of a prismatic wall or prismatic sphere. The hand makes saving throws as its caster.

Disintegrate or a successful dispel magic destroys it.

Directing the spell to a new target or location is a move action.



I think you could fix Forceful Hand by turning its Bull Rush into an Awesome Blow, and then keep the other big three as they are. The rest... I mean, if you don't want people doing hand stuff at low levels then I guess you can do that? I just don't see the point of changing spells' flavour for no other reason than you, personally, wouldn't want to use it - I'm sure someone else would, and you can just not use the bixby's spells if you don't like them personally, rather than taking them out so no-one can use them.

[Aotrs Commander]

When i used the spells I found that they covered one of the big weaknesses of the mage, which was pure physical damage. Had great fun.

That was a long time ago though.

But yeah grapple rules can be confusing, making a flowchart I found to be a great help to keep track with grappling what was going on at the time.

Orb of Force alone is singificantly better in terms of damage output than any of the hand spells.

Contrary to apparently everyone else, I never had a particular problem with 3.5's grapple rules, poorly integrated with the the stuff that uses them most (monters) though they were; Pathfinder's were simpler, but not an improvement, so for 3.Aotrs, I completely re-wrote them entirely, using aspects of both and properly writing in the rules for monster abilities at the same time, so I don't have to flip through at least two places every. Single. Time. One of the many, many, many monsters with improved grab/grab, constrict/swallow whole ett turns up.




If you're not keeping the flavor, then the spells probably aren't worth saving. The flavor is what keeps them from just being "weirdly limited telekinesis". That said, a ground-up rebuild is probably in order, since the default balance of them is all over the place.

That's why I'm leaning towards compressing them, as a compromise to not dropping them entirely as being more trouble/space than they are worth. The noncore five were easy to deal with, it's them that are proving to be more effort sunk in than I think they are likely going to gain.


I just don't see the point of changing spells' flavour for no other reason than you, personally, wouldn't want to use it - I'm sure someone else would, and you can just not use the bixby's spells if you don't like them personally, rather than taking them out so no-one can use them.

I've never used them, no-one in my group has used one1 that I can remember clearly (and if it was, it was before there were - at current count - 1832 6th level spells to choose from, for Imposing Hand to start with) and I don't even recall seeing them on any of the spell lists of any NPC in any adventure path I've seen; so what I do not want to do is waste a page of printed space (in a document 268 pages long already) - because they have to be written up, because they are both require name changing (Bigby had never existsed on any of cosmologies of the campaign worlds we play on and/or use outdated combat maneouvre rules) - and spell bloat on something that almost certaintly won't ever get used. Conceding to 5E's idea of one spell is a good compromise to not dropping them entirely, I think, at this point.




1Let me put it this way; no-one in our group is a fan of what you might consider D&D's specific lore-feel, we play it for the mechanics and not because of any of the lore and flavour D&D itself has. (I personally like Golarion's flavour, which makes it unique across all games and systems as one of the very rare few I'm prepared give the time of day for choice and even that only as I can't write weekly stuff for homebrew any longer.

2Note to self: probably might as well delete Relics & Ritual's Pass the Years and make it 182, I can no longer see the point of a spell which ages people D10 years, given that would just be a pointless spell for the PCs to have (and THEN I have to start deciding exactly how old crap is). Failing a complete revision to it to that changes it to essentially a curse that gives a straight reduction to physical ability scores.

[ShurikVch]

One more spell from the line is Halaster's Shaking Hand (City of Splendors: Waterdeep): it works like Bigby's Interposing Hand, but also able to grapple hands produced by other Bigby's spells

[Aotrs Commander]

One more spell from the line is Halaster's Shaking Hand (City of Splendors: Waterdeep): it works like Bigby's Interposing Hand, but also able to grapple hands produced by other Bigby's spells

I'm not working from the entire of 3.5, only what splatbooks I used (basicially the stuff that was not specific to any campaign setting, though because it as out early in I think 3.0, Magic of Faerun, though the number of spells in that not replaced by SpC or the other splats I can count on the fingers of one hand.)



As I'm here, I might as well show what I decided to do in the end.

(Yes, I reflavoured it a little bit, but it can still be hands if you wanted...)


Force Construct
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 Standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: 10-ft. force construct
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None and Fortitude negates (see text); SR: Yes

You create a Large magical force construct. This can take any form you desire (often a hand).

The force construct has as 8 hit points per caster level, and its AC is 20/9/20 (–1 size, +11 natural). It takes damage as a normal creature, but most magical effects that don’t cause damage do not affect it. Disintegrate or a successful Dispel Magic destroys it.

The force construct never provokes an attack of opportunity (either by movement or use of its combat maneuveres), nor does it threaten an area. The hand makes saving throws as its caster and cannot enter an antimagic field, but it isotherwise subject to any movement and damage effects that would affect a creature or object (it cannot pass a Wall of Force, for example and would take full damage from moving through a Wall of Fire spell).

You can use the force construct to perform the following attacks, starting on the round you create it. You select a target upon the rounnyou cast the spell. Directing the construct to a new target requires a Move action.

The force construct has a CMB equal to your caster level +1 (for being Large) +8 (Str 26). The constructs Strength increases to +10 (Str 30) at caster level 13th, to +12 (Str 34) at 15th caster level and to +14 (Str 38) at 17th caster level.
Its CMD equals 9 + your caster level + its strength modifier*.

Bull Rush: Once per round, the force construct attempts to bull rush the designated target. It automatically pushes the target as far as possible and follows up. It has no movement limit for this purpose except for the maximum range of the spell.

You can also use this action to have the construct make a Strength check that requires a simple directional force (such as to burst a door or hold up a cracking ceiling) using the construct’s Strength modifier.

Attack: Once per round, the construct attacks the target. It uses your caster level as it’s base attack bonus plus your key ability modifier and its strength modifie, –1 for being Large. A git deals D8 plus its Stength modifier Force damage. At 15th caster level, on a succesful hit, the target must make a successful Fortitude save (at the spell save save DC) or be Stunned for 1 round.

Block: The construct places itself either next to the target or next to you, moves automatically moves to interpose itself between you and the target. This typically provides you with cover from the target and means the target cannot attack you in melee without first destroying the hand or moving it with an appropriate combat maneouvre, just as if it was a regualr Large creature standing in that space. If either you or the target teleport or use other simultaneous movement, the hand cannot attempt to interpose itself until the start of your next turn.

Grapple: At 13th caster level, the construct attempts to grapple the target, making one attempt to grapple the target per round. If it succeeds in grapplign the target, on subequent turns, it simply maintains the grapple on its graplle action; it cannot attempt to damage pin or move the target, merely hold it. At 17th caster level, the hand gains the Constrict ability; at your option it deals 2D6 + 14 (its strength modifier) Force damage on each succesful grapple check (including the first).

You can also use this action to pick up and hold an unattended object (though it cannot move with the object) using its Strength score as if it was a humanoid Large creature.

Focus: A jade ring.


(Ahahahaha! Look AD&D, I can make the material componets An Hilarious Joke as well!)

Does it do quite a lot for a 6th level spell? Probably, but I honestly don't see this getting used much regardless, but the option for it remains open.




*3.Aotrs CMD does not have the size modifer to CMD, it's just Touch AC + BAB + Str mod. Actualyl good job I posted it, I'd got it written all wrong, being -1 instead of +9 because I was thinking "it's 1 less than 10," but forgot to put "10+" at the front like an idiot. So that makes this worthwhile.

[vasilidor]

the bigby spells are not worth it in my opinion, though what aotrs commander posted for a spell may be useful.

[Endarire]

What happens if the force construct caster level is 18+?

[Aotrs Commander]

What happens if the force construct caster level is 18+?

Nothing else. Which is so, it doesn't furter improve beyond 17th, which is the cap on improvements (i.e. the level that (wizards) gain the 9th level spell slot; functionally 17th is at the point it has gotten the functionality that the 9th level spell would have given you).



(I assume that's what you're asking, because the alternative I can think of would be to interpret "at 17th level" as being "only at 17th level" which would be an interpretatation at odds with how every other level based thing in the rules works (and with a good chunk of the same phrasing, unless you interpret, say Greater Rage as only working for 11th levle barbarians and not 12th level barbarians) and that just seems really unlikely; if it's something that's not either of those to, you'll have to elaborate.)