OOTS #285 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Chronomancer

2006-02-23, 05:03 AM

Yes, yes. We get the point. I was hoping that the whole point of Miko's character was to show that people who play narrowminded Lawful Stupid zealot pallies should NOT get away with that. It turns out that the point of Miko's character was to show that how according to the rulebook, people CAN play a narrowminded Lawful Stupid zealot pally AND get away with that.

*sigh* A bit disappointing, but at least she is gone, hopefully for good. I desperately try to think of any character I could potentially dislike more than Miko, but I just can't. Here's to a hope she never comes back, and if she does, then only to meet a horrible and bloody demise.

You really think so? I mean, seriously... Look at Shojos words and Mikos answer, rewritten by me, how I understand them:

Shojo: "Told you to bring them here, you did so. For THIS I commend your efforts. Now GO before you cause more harm than you have done already!"

Miko: "But the halfling is a murderer, I want to kill him now!"

Shojo: "I don't care what you want, he'll be judged by a court, not by you!"

Miko: "Well then, I obey... not because I like it but because I have to."

Sure you can interpret the dialogue in more ways than that, but for me and my view of Miko it's just fine. ;D
I don't see her getting away with her attitude, nope.

Sebastian

2006-02-23, 05:15 AM

Good is a social construct. Do you sacrifice a hundred thousand people, or kill 500?
If you are good you do neither and search a third way, if you choose the "lesser evil" then you are, at best, neutral.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 05:17 AM

If you are good you do neither and search a third way, if you choose the "lesser evil" then you are, at best, neutral.
The problem is you assume their is a third option. Their isn't always. What is it then? Is passivly allowing death to avoid active murder on your part really better.

Delgarde

2006-02-23, 05:17 AM

Maybe he wanted to give her to opportunity to stop by herself without him give her a direct order.

I think he probably would have ordered her to stop before she killed Belkar, if V hadn't intervened first. As it is, he intervened as soon as the confrontation turned violent, stopping the fight and getting Miko out of the room, away from temptation. At that point he realised Miko was losing control, and acted to snap her out of it.

As to why he waited, perhaps he wanted Miko to hear what V and the others had to say to her? We know from Hinjo that while competent, she's widely disliked by Shojo's court - possibly he thought it might be good for her to hear their reasons for supporting a friend.

octopod

2006-02-23, 05:18 AM

I was going to say something, but all has been said. Except that...oh man, after this strip I love Vaarsuvius more than ever...is there a V Fanclub? :)

Edited to add:
Oh crap, I just reread the comic and realized...Miko's final speech...does it ring any bells to anyone else?

Mark my words: This has sealed your fate. Holy justice will be served. I will never rest 'til then. This I swear...
...this I swear by the STARS!

;D ;D ;D

Bakta

2006-02-23, 05:28 AM

This was a great fun to read.
[Adult language spolier]

Miko's words, while not the bloody thing many of you are making of it reminds me of one of the parting lines of Good morning Vietnam :

"I never met a primate in such need of being getting laid like you"

or something like that. Miko is far too tense, in more way than one, I believe that the only one who noticed as much is Belkar, who is getting an awful kick being bashed by her... hmmmm. Belkar da masochist??

She might have not been the best for Roy, but boy does she need a bf.

Holy_Knight

2006-02-23, 05:32 AM

Good is a social construct. Do you sacrifice a hundred thousand people, or kill 500? Do you surrender a world to looming darkness, or do you ensure the light will continue to shine?

1. No, people's perceptions of good are socially or individually constructed.

2. Neither.

2b. A deity that is both good and thinking rationally would order his paladin--who is both immune to diseases and capable of curing them--to orchestrate a quarantine and healing effort, not destroy a village of innocents.

2c. Said deity would also be capable of finding some way to extend the liege's life which didn't involve turning the liege into an evil being which paladins are sworn to hunt down and destroy.

3. Rhetorical questions are rarely persuasive or useful in discussions, as they are typically vague and tend to obscure important distinctions, rather than illuminate them.

4. You don't "keep the light shining" by doing dastardly deeds of darkness.

5. Alliteration is fun.

6. There is no 7.

Mark my words: This has sealed your fate. Holy justice will be served. I will never rest 'til then. This I swear...
...this I swear by the STARS!

Wow, nice catch Octopod. I missed the Javert connection there, but that fits really well.

Sebastian

2006-02-23, 05:34 AM

The Order nearly came apart when Xykon supposedly died. If Roy's sword hadn't been broken, they would have gone their separate ways--two members of the Order only stayed even long enough to get his sword fixed because he lied to them. Belkar also actually tried to kill Elan. Then when Elan was kidnapped, Roy wanted to leave him behind
And Belkar wanted to save him.
And are we rwally sure he believed Roy? I still think he just wanted to stay with them but he needed and half reason to do it. (more exactly I think his player meta-gamed it "why my CE character should want to follow Roy on this quest? MmmmH , I think he'll just choose to believe this absurd story about giants"

Kish

2006-02-23, 05:37 AM

2c. Said deity would also be capable of finding some way to extend the liege's life which didn't involve turning the liege into an evil being which paladins are sworn to hunt down and destroy.
Liches aren't necessarily evil.

Holy_Knight

2006-02-23, 05:45 AM

Liches aren't necessarily evil.

The SRD lists a lich's alignment as "any evil" and notes that "Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil". And in any case, undeath is antithetical to the paladin class.

rosebud

2006-02-23, 05:46 AM

I don't quite understand why I'm posting since people are posting faster than I can read the thread. :)

Anyhow, I like The Giant's (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1140671714 ;start=150#150) comment on Miko's character development and a seeming answer (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1140671714 ;start=165#173) of whether some of OOtS are neutral in alignment.

As to Belkar, Roy makes it clear that he helped defeat Evil and Roy does provide supervision (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=263) and doing so is for the good of the world. Yes, Belkar is CE, but he was vital to the party's success and Roy has not objected to a trial for the murder of the guard so far. It's not just a simple loyalty versus good issue; defending Belkar in that situation could be regarded as loyalty and good. (And since it may have prevented Miko's fall, in Miko's interest, as well.)

Roy's behaviour still perplexes me, though. Save Miko and Belkar, everyone in OOtS got along well with the Sapphire Guard and Azure City seems to be an exciting place to visit. Hinjo is a great guy they liked, the trial ended up being fair, and Shojo seems like a very nice (albiet possibly somewhat senile) man who Roy should get along well with. And who can object to Mr. Scruffy? (Don't answer that -- that was a rhetorical question.)

I know he was annoyed with Miko, but Celia was great and they really should become buddy-buddy with the rest of the Sapphire guard now, especially if they can help with the problems the group face (sister's kidnapping, Xykon's reappearance, Haley's father). I just hope the rest of the events make him less grumpy; excluding Miko, it's a good place, in multiple senses of the word.

Chronomancer

2006-02-23, 05:48 AM

Liches aren't necessarily evil.

Lich is a template that can be applied to any humanoid. Few restrictions though:

Alignment
Any evil.

Lich Characters
The process of becoming a lich is unspeakably evil and can be undertaken only by a willing character. A lich retains all class abilities it had in life.

For reference:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

Liches are evil, always. Otherwise they would not even get:
Fear Aura (Su)
Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil.

I think that becoming a lich destroys all of your humanity, making you incapable of doing good.

Kish

2006-02-23, 05:52 AM

Nonevil liches are in Monsters of Faerun. Which, yes, could mean that liches absolutely have to be evil everywhere but the Forgotten Realms...

...but I wouldn't state that without scrutinizing every page of every ancillary Monster Manual. It's logically impossible to prove a negative, after all.

ShneekeyTheLost

2006-02-23, 05:54 AM

I don't see Miko going blackguard.

In fact, I see Miko being right in the dead-center of her belief system, even with her anger. I don't know that I'm going to get a lot of traction with this idea, but were I a GM and someone played their Paladin like that, they'd be getting a roleplaying XP award at the end of the session.

Whereas I would have stripped the pally of all class abilities until she atones.

Wanting to kill evil beings is not bad, in fact many paladins feel this to some extend. Wanting to bathe your hands in the blood of the heathen, on the other hand, is way beyond that.

Belkar is true evil, his biggest joy would be to make Miko a fallen paladin. Heck, when she first showed up and they went with her, he stated that the reason he didn't mind her around was because she might loose her class abilities for associating with him. He was wanting her to sink from her state of grace, and one of the quickest ways to do that is to strike a helpless or fallen opponent in rage and cold blood.

And as far as I am concerned, she's a samurai, not a paladin. The two, as demonstrated clearly by this comic strip, are mutually exclusive. Her samurai upbringing and culture has given way to a vengful rage and wrath that is not good by any means nor is it a part of the paladin code. If she doesn't get stripped of class abilities for this... now is about the time I'd be throwing popcorn at the GM.

Besides... can you think of the awsomeness of Miko as a LE blackguard? Still lawful, still a bitch, still honorable (Yes, most samurai in L5R are either LN or LE, and can easily maintain bushido in either class), but now totally evil... and enjoying it.

Sebastian

2006-02-23, 05:59 AM

The problem is you assume their is a third option. Their isn't always. What is it then? Is passivly allowing death to avoid active murder on your part really better.
Maybe there is not a third option and then you become neutral. Sometime being good is just not an option. That's why playing a paladin in Ravenloft is so hard, for example.

infiniteviking

2006-02-23, 06:00 AM

Except that...oh man, after this strip I love Vaarsuvius more than ever...is there a V Fanclub? :)

If Vaarsuvius has a fan club, I'm joining.

What do you think V's alignment is? I'd guess True Neutral.

..And a technical question. If Miko got hit from behind by a scorching ray, why didn't her hair catch on fire?

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:01 AM

Aeek

2006-02-23, 06:01 AM

A table is smarter than Belkar. Getting Miko to kill him. Belkar being dead. Two different things. He may not make the connection.

If Miko got hit from behind by a scorching ray, why didn't her hair catch on fire?

cos she's frigid ! Her hair has to thaw out first before it can catch fire.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:03 AM

If Vaarsuvius has a fan club, I'm joining.

What do you think V's alignment is? I'd guess True Neutral.

..And a technical question. If Miko got hit from behind by a scorching ray, why didn't her hair catch on fire?
How does she still have hair after the Sake incedent? It doesn't matter and theirs no logic beheind it.

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 06:03 AM

OK, I got the technical problem fixed. The comic is now up. Technically late, but it's double-length, so deal with it.
Fantastic. I can no longer contend with the sheer volume of discussion on these comics, so this will have to be the extent of my meaningful commentary. But I did find this installment peculiarly unsatisfying... sigh. I guess that's just the plot requirement. Friday, onward.

Delgarde

2006-02-23, 06:04 AM

Ok, my thoughts on the comic...

Miko has earned herself a healthy chunk of respect from me here - despite all the provocation she's received, she managed to control herself, if only barely. She's not exactly acting as a paladin should, but she's managed for now to avoid doing anything that would seriously violate her oaths as a paladin and a samurai. "For now", I say, since her parting shot suggests forgiveness ain't on the agenda.

Also, I agree with some of the earlier comments - if Miko were a PC, her player would definitely have earned serious roleplaying XP for the last few comics. With Belkar to act against, she's showing a deeper character than we've previously seen.

Indeed, I think quite a few of the Order have put in some excellent acting in this strip - particularly Roy with his speech on loyalty. Because the contrast is clear - Miko is not a person who can inspire loyalty, and certainly isn't someone who works well in a team. Yet Belkar, for all his faults, has all his friends standing to defend him. And as Roy pointed out, Belkar is part of that team, and has never betrayed the trust they've put in him.

afarrell

2006-02-23, 06:05 AM

People worried about the Belkar trial should consider what Haley realised.

I don't think that Shojo is expressing approval or disapproval of Miko, nor would he do so in public. He's simply handling her in a way that gets her out of the room and not dead. He is her leader, and she is (or was?) a useful tool - bringing in the OOTS in the first place is no mean feat. How damaged the tool may be, and how fit for further use, is a matter to be determined in private.

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 06:09 AM

...despite all the provocation she's received, she managed to control herself, if only barely.
I dunno. If that Scorching Ray hadn't been launched... things might have been very different. But I suppose, her momentary hesitation was the window oif opportunity needed. Also, I doubt assaulting the OotS yet again was justified here, if striking Belkar down wasn't.
I am surprised to learn Belkar was indeed faking it. He seems to be going to insane lengths for the sake of revenge, given the potential costs to himself.

The thought of Miko as a perpetual antagonist dismays me. Oh well.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:10 AM

I dunno. If that Scorching Ray hadn't been launched... things might have been very different. But I suppose, her momentary hesitation was the window oif opportunity needed. Also, I doubt assaulting the OotS yet again was justified here, if striking Belkar down wasn't.
I am surprised to learn Belkar was indeed faking it. He seems to be going to insane lengths for the sake of revenge, given the potential costs to himself.

The thought of Miko as a perpetual antagonist dismays me. Oh well.
What do you mean? How does this stripe say he was fakng it?

Bakta

2006-02-23, 06:11 AM

<snip>.

1) Kids might read this, I don't know and don't want to know what are thesocial rules in your country, my reasoning was "better safe than sorry".

2) By all accounts writing about deviant sexuality is best kept within adults. Which was why I meant by "adult language".

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 06:12 AM

What do you mean? How does this stripe say he was fakng it?
The fact he got back on his feet, and was 'encouraging' Miko, would indicate he was never unconscious.

Delgarde

2006-02-23, 06:13 AM

What do you think V's alignment is? I'd guess True Neutral.

I imagine V's character sheet says True Neutral, since it's the usual choice for anyone who doesn't particularly care. Same as my opinion on V's gender - not filled in, since it's not mechanically relevant.

In practice, I think V's character leans more towards Chaotic. Afterall, we're talking about someone with a spell list consisting mostly of the Evocation school, for whom blowing something (or someone) up is a good solution to most problems.

FireLance

2006-02-23, 06:16 AM

Maybe there is not a third option and then you become neutral. Sometime being good is just not an option. That's why playing a paladin in Ravenloft is so hard, for example.If you're playing a paladin and there's no third option (between two evil choices) you have a bad DM. That's why not everyone is qualified to DM for a paladin.

The_Logic_Ninja

2006-02-23, 06:16 AM

2) By all accounts writing about deviant sexuality is best kept within adults. Which was why I meant by "adult language".

Anyone who can read OotS and these boards who doesn't know what 'getting laid' means deserves to know.

Since when is getting laid *deviant* sexuality anyway?

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:16 AM

The fact he got back on his feet, and was 'encouraging' Miko, would indicate he was never unconscious.
It never said he was unconcies. He was egging her on because he was a jerk. I could support the "Belkar is planning all this" thing to a point but really he looked ready to die. I'm not buying it. Someone probably gave him a potion or something.

As for you Bakta. I assume thattheir is something I'm missing in your quote that makes it devient? Is it the primate thing? Was that supossed to imply........

Kish

2006-02-23, 06:17 AM

I think he means the suggestion of Belkar being masochistic.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:18 AM

I imagine V's character sheet says True Neutral, since it's the usual choice for anyone who doesn't particularly care. Same as my opinion on V's gender - not filled in, since it's not mechanically relevant.

In practice, I think V's character leans more towards Chaotic. Afterall, we're talking about someone with a spell list consisting mostly of the Evocation school, for whom blowing something (or someone) up is a good solution to most problems.
I think that arguement fell apart when V siad she had a mate. That implys a mechanicaly irrelevent back story.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:20 AM

If you're playing a paladin and there's no third option (between two evil choices) you have a bad DM. That's why not everyone is qualified to DM for a paladin.
Ok but lets say its real life. In real life their isn't alway a third option so what now?(yeah now i'm playing devils advocate)

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 06:21 AM

It never said he was unconcies...
Yes, but if Belkar wasn't unconscious, then he wasn't helpless, and if he wasn't helpless, then Miko would be at least plausibly justified in smiting him, and hence, no Fall would be occasioned. Belkar appears to have faked being prone purely to induce Miko's Fall. There's no indication he got a potion or any outside healing.

Kish

2006-02-23, 06:22 AM

So...one of the options doesn't result in an alignment change. :P

It's not evil--or good--if you don't have a choice. Choosing the least evil option will never shift your alignment toward evil--and choosing the least good option will never shift your alignment toward good. Unless, of course, your DM is of the school of thought that holds that the function of a paladin is to Fall.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:22 AM

Yes, but if Belkar wasn't unconscious, then he wasn't helpless, and if he wasn't helpless, then Miko would be at least plausibly justified in smiting him, and hence, no Fall would be occasioned. Belkar appears to have faked being prone purely to induce Miko's Fall. There's no indication he got a potion or any outside healing.
He wasn't faking anything. He said that to egg Miko on. He was to weak to move is that imposible in D&D?

Sebastian

2006-02-23, 06:23 AM

The fact he got back on his feet, and was 'encouraging' Miko, would indicate he was never unconscious.
He could have been at 0 hps, disabled and yet not unconscious, there are no rule that say you can't stand up at 0 hps.

Delgarde

2006-02-23, 06:23 AM

A table is smarter than Belkar. Getting Miko to kill him. Belkar being dead. Two different things. He may not make the connection.

I don't think Belkar is actually stupid as many people seem to think - as this situation with Miko shows, he's actually pretty clever when he wants to be.

I think the problem is more his low wisdom - lacking both self control and good judgement, he tends to act on impulse. He's perfectly capable of thinking through the consequences of his actions, but doing so is against his nature.

Marller

2006-02-23, 06:24 AM

Great strip, not as i had envisioned it but very close. :)
That was very close for Miko, but understandably (at least for me). I hope Miko gets now a well deserved timeout.
But regardless, i don't think she will reappear for quite some time (if ever).

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:26 AM

I think he means the suggestion of Belkar being masochistic.
Yeah ok that I can understand. Still might I remind you that this stripes made these sorts of jokes?

Haley-I will tie them up using US ROPE
Belkar-Kinky

Delgarde

2006-02-23, 06:30 AM

I think that arguement fell apart when V siad she had a mate. That implys a mechanicaly irrelevent back story.

Maybe, although that scene felt to me like a player making up bits of their history as they go... never bothered to work out a character background, but thought that would be a good time for their character to say something. I don't know, just my take on the matter...

FireLance

2006-02-23, 06:33 AM

Ok but lets say its real life. In real life their isn't alway a third option so what now?(yeah now i'm playing devils advocate)In real life, you go by whatever moral principles you have. In my specific case, the tenets of my religion require me to do good, not evil, and have faith that it will work out for the best in the end.

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 06:33 AM

He wasn't faking anything. He said that to egg Miko on. He was to weak to move is that imposible in D&D?
Unless your HP are subzero or some peculiar conditional effect applies (for which there is no evidence,) yes. We don't know Miko heard his comment, and it seems to have been a whisper (not usually meant for the other person to hear.)

He could have been at 0 hps, disabled and yet not unconscious, there are no rule that say you can't stand up at 0 hps.
Or... he could be in positive HP but faking it. Which seems much more likely, since it doesn't require an exactly accomodating damage-roll by your enemy.

Miko's dead-set on gutting them all painfully! Waaaaah!

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:39 AM

Unless your HP are subzero or some peculiar conditional effect applies (for which there is no evidence,) yes. We don't know Miko heard his comment, and it seems to have been a whisper (not usually meant for the other person to hear.)
Or... he could be in positive HP but faking it. Which seems much more likely, since it doesn't require an exactly accomodating damage-roll by your enemy.

Miko's dead-set on gutting them all painfully! Waaaaah!
What did you think the third panel was about. That was her hearing his enrepented coment and getting even more enraged. She herd that, I'm sure of it.

infiniteviking

2006-02-23, 06:45 AM

Commenting on comments, in reverse temporal order:

since it's the usual choice for anyone who doesn't particularly care.
It's also, from what I've read, a highly versatile alignment, allowing the character to effectively create a customized moral code depending on the situation. (too tired to look up True Neutral right now)

How does she still have hair after the Sake incedent? It doesn't matter and theirs no logic beheind it.
I just figured she regenerated her hair somehow. (Could a paladin do that?) We didn't see her directly after the fire went out, but we did see her right after the scorching ray.

The problem is you assume their is a third option. Their isn't always. What is it then? Is passivly allowing death to avoid active murder on your part really better.
A trait sometimes exhibited by 'good' characters is the inability to accept a situation with no 'good' option. Kind of like Kirk's changing the rules whenever he was faced with an untenable choice.

It doesn't always work, but that's what hope does to a mind that refuses to disown it.

Ashbless

2006-02-23, 06:45 AM

Miko didn't need to have heard Belkar's remark. Seeing how focused she was on the little guy its all too easy to suspect that she lip-read his whisper.

I rather suspect Belkar would have egged her on in this fashion, if he thought it would get Miko to attack just for the reaction.

As for Miko's return, I think she's too good a character (look at the number of posts she's generated in these forums) to go out like that.

It seems to me to be Act One of a Three Part Play which has Miko changing, one way or another..

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 06:46 AM

What did you think the third panel was about. That was her hearing his enrepented coment and getting even more enraged. She herd that, I'm sure of it.
An equally valid interpretation was that she realised Belkar was apparently defenceless and thus she might fall for smiting him, which would give him some satisfaction even in death. Either way, she couldn't win.
Whereas, if she heard the comment, it would be clear that Belkar was not unconscious, and therefore, in likelihood, she could smite with impunity.

It seems to me to be Act One of a Three Part Play which has Miko changing, one way or another...
I begin to grow increasingly skeptical of anything resembling a positive outcome in the forseeable future. Again. Wah.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 06:51 AM

An equally valid interpretation was that she realised Belkar was apparently defenceless and thus she might fall for smiting him, which would give him some satisfaction even in death. Either way, she couldn't win.
Whereas, if she heard the comment, it would be clear that Belkar was not unconscious, and therefore, in likelihood, she could smite with impunity.

I begin to grow increasingly skeptical of anything resembling a positive outcome in the forseeable future. Again. Wah.
Being awake doesn't mean he wasn't defenseless.

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 06:55 AM

Being awake doesn't mean he wasn't defenseless.
It merely makes it overwhelmingly likely.
On another note, I find it odd that Elan was relieved at the idea Miko wasn't upset. I can't really reliably analyse the comment any further, though, particularly since it may just have been a gag.

Aeek

2006-02-23, 07:06 AM

On another note, I find it odd that Elan was relieved at the idea Miko wasn't upset.

Elan doesn't like anyone to be upset, he's so caring.
OTOH he's so clueless, that wasn't upset !

Karkadinn

2006-02-23, 07:42 AM

(Never really sure what calls for being concealed and what doesn't. I'll err on the side of caution for this post.)
People still seem to be missing the whole point of Miko's character even when the Giant states it outright in the comic.
She's a paladin, and she's going to remain a paladin, because it's possible to be a bitch, fanatical, and even a wee bit psychotic (that last speech of hers) and still live up to the minimum standards of the paladin code. Because whatever else is wrong with her, she doesn't tolerate evil, in others or herself.
If she does fall, it would be such a traumatic event for her that she would Cease To Be Miko As We Know Her. She would, quite simply, have a total mental breakdown, because her paladinness is all she has in life. No friends, it seems like... no one to sympathize with her... no other meaningful goals in life... just the paladin code. Deprived of that, she would be deprived of all her faith in herself and its accompanying bitchy self-righteousness.
Miko needs someone or something to show her that she's right to the letter without being right to the intent, and since none of the Order is willing to do that, and in fact they have accidentally (and not so accidentally in Belkar's case) encouraged the opposite, then it will be nothing less than a traumatic experience to get through to her now.
Which is very depressing, because it leaves us with two options.
Miko continues to regress into a bitter fanatic, technically a paladin but still so very unhappy, ignorant, and bad at her job....
Or she goes through some Really Angsty Experience to totally shatter her whole worldview, allowing her to remake it into something better, if she can.
Both options are less than ideal, and I think most of the people disappointed in the current page simply wanted a less depressing outcome, where Miko could simply be persuaded away from her black and white world view instead of forced away from it.
For my part, I put most of the blame in this on Roy. Aside from Durkon who did the best he could with the limited intellectual stats he has, Roy's the only one of the Order lacking in character deficiencies that would innately make him hostile to Miko (Belkar's evil, V is as arrogant as Miko is, Haley's materialistic, and Elan's too simple-minded to 'get' why Miko is more complex than simply being a big meanie). He did the right thing at first, trying to play a middle ground between Miko and the rest of the Order, but he did it for entirely stupid, immature reasons, and once those reasons vanished, he then started doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. He's got the Int, Wis, and Char to know that he's not handling things with Miko or Belkar optimally, but alas, he doesn't seem to care.

Ravenwind

2006-02-23, 07:57 AM

Hello, all. . . first, I have to say, wonderful comic. . . long-time reader, first time poster, all of that.

I've been prompted to de-lurk mostly by the usual "Paladins have sticks up their butts, I hate them!" "Paladins HAVE to have sticks up their butts, but they rawk" divide I've noticed in the posts here. I've been defending paladins for so long, that the reflex is impossible to resist. :-/

Miko, to me, reads like an absolute pillorying of the sort of player who takes the paladin class, ignores the Wisdom stat requirement, and plays the class/character without introspection, without joy, without appreciation for the moral conflict and questions that the paladin class, played by the best players, is capable of uncovering and dealing with.

Were I her DM, I'd be throwing moral quandry after moral quandry at her, and, IF she only responded with a letter-of-the-law rant, I'd throw her some dreams and visions to shake her up. But that's me. ;)

A paladin, played correctly, with insight, wisdom, sympathy, and understanding. . . or a character whose BROUGHT to those characterisitics over time and through suffering. . . is an unparalleled joy, both for the player and the DM. They are not robots, and need not have a stick up their bums.

Roy's character in this strip responds, not with alignment, but with humanity.

Miko will be a GOOD paladin--by which I don't mean alignment, but "one who plays to the spirit of the class"--once humanity and humility are beaten into her by the DM. . . and I hope she does have an epiphany pretty soon. Because it would be a let-down for only the minor characters, like Hinjo, to demonstrate the flexibility and dynamism and reality of the class, and not to show a major character grow, change, and develop over time.

Sorry for the rant. It's been building for a while.

Great comic, Giant. Thank you for bringing so many smiles to my face, and my boyfriend's, and my former players'.

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 08:00 AM

Karkadinn, that was beautiful. Really. Ravenwind, also good. Anyways, carry on.

SMEE

2006-02-23, 08:07 AM

That's not fair! >:( Miko should have fell. >:(

She sould have slipped on Belkars blood and fell onto her face. ;D

*Ahem*

Sorry for the not-funny-at-all pun, but I had to put it out. :P

Now, on a more serious tone, I loved how OOTS defended their fellow teammate in this comic, no matter how flawed he is. :)

Reaver225

2006-02-23, 08:17 AM

There is no spotlight for Miko! I've a feeling she never was a PC...

Ashbless

2006-02-23, 08:22 AM

There is no spotlight for Miko! I've a feeling she never was a PC...

She does appear bathed in a blue spotlight (as does Shojo in his appearance) in the first and fourth panels, whereas the OOTs are in a white spotlight.

Not that I know what the significance of that is...

Traal

2006-02-23, 08:25 AM

I think Karkadinn and Ravenwind come reasonably close to pegging why #285 didn't resonate with me as it seems to have with some others on the forum. Miko is brimming with potential, both as a character and as a paladin, if only someone she'd find a little humility. Always thought the Order would either beat it into her skull or she'd find it through introspection upon living with the Order, and their antics, for the duration of their trip to the Southern Lands. Her psychosis, and the "LOOKIE MA, I'M GONNA BE A RONIN OR BLACKGUARD!" flavor of her parting shots, were a bit of a let down.

But the plot arc isn't over yet: Much could still happen before the Order leaves Azure City or we cut by back to the Linear Guild or Xykon.

Oh, and on the Blackguard pre-reqs, the idea has been floated that the Being of Pure Law and Good is not what it seems to be. I'd think what happened in Shojo's audience chamber would qualify as peaceful contact with an evil outsider, if he's really one in disguise. But that's unlikely, as he'd either have to have a ridiculous numbers of hit die(of the balor/pit fiend level) or none of the five clerics in the room or V to have any ranks in Knowledge(the planes)...

wmcduff

2006-02-23, 08:31 AM

I'll eat some crow and admit to jumping into the middle of that conversation without seeing the start of it. Roy's club (which he got back after the trial) is not an improvised weapon. If he'd picked up Mr. Scruffy and started swinging, that would be another story (one we will see in the inevitable OotS fan fiction, I'm sure.)

There's certainly enough room in the throne room to swing...

Nah, that's too easy.

Ahem. Anyway, I'm finding this writing on the nature of alignment interesting. A rather ugly Lawful Good character, though perhaps her ability to not kill Belkar when ordered is admirable. I think part of the reason that people want to see Miko fall is that because she is a unlikable paladin. Since she's a flawed character, people want to see her pulled down from Lawful Good because that is an idealized state. Since people want to admire someone who obeys the law and attempts to bring more goodness in the world, someone who does yet is unlikable is accused of going 'too far' (stick up rear) or 'not far enough' (not really lawful good, sure to fall sometime).

The amusing bit to me, is that at least some people are going to accuse one or the other no matter what kind of paladin you have. I find Miko refreshing, really.

Anyway, don't mind me...

nagora

2006-02-23, 08:32 AM

I imagine V's character sheet says True Neutral, since it's the usual choice for anyone who doesn't particularly care. Same as my opinion on V's gender - not filled in, since it's not mechanically relevant.

We always had a distinction between Neutral, more-or-less meaning people who don't care, and True Neutral which meant people like druids who specifically do care about there being a balance between all alignments. True Neutrals tended to be fairly fanatical, mainly as a response to the fact that no one else understood what they were trying to do.

I think this distinction did eventually find its way into the 1st Ed canon; I don't know if it was carried forward or not. Anyone?

Vampire_Boy

2006-02-23, 08:33 AM

Yes, but if Belkar wasn't unconscious, then he wasn't helpless

Eh??? You can be up to full consciousness even as you are dying - does that not count as helpless?

Vampire_Boy

2006-02-23, 08:36 AM

Lady_Orc

2006-02-23, 08:40 AM

Eh??? You can be up to full consciousness even as you are dying - does that not count as helpless?

Whether you are terminally ill or severly injured, certainly you can be conscious and yet helpless. I know that in game mechanical terms, you can be on your feet and fighting at 1 HP, but I think this is one case where story/roleplaying takes precedence over game mechanics.

As for the strip in general, I now love V more than ever. :) And Miko certainly comes across as being on the verge of a complete mental breakdown - one way or the other, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of her.

Chlodwig

2006-02-23, 08:44 AM

Hmm,

I just noticed....

In the first few panels Belkar is on the ground possibly at death door.

Later in the script he is standing around. I can't see anybody healing him.
Of course it could have been done of-screen.
On the other hand.... Perhaps he was faking it after all?

Kish

2006-02-23, 08:47 AM

We always had a distinction between Neutral, more-or-less meaning people who don't care, and True Neutral which meant people like druids who specifically do care about there being a balance between all alignments. True Neutrals tended to be fairly fanatical, mainly as a response to the fact that no one else understood what they were trying to do.

I think this distinction did eventually find its way into the 1st Ed canon; I don't know if it was carried forward or not. Anyone?
Not. The "philosophical commitment to balance between good and evil, law and chaos" concept of True Neutral went the way of the dodo when 3ed came out. Being True Neutral now means simply: too good to be evil, too evil to be good, too ordered to be chaotic, and too chaotic to be lawful.

Sc00by

2006-02-23, 08:47 AM

Stupid number of posts... Anyway. Great stuff IMHO. I did wonder if we were going to avoid a fatality and if so - how!

Now I've seen what it is I think my favourite comment is Hayley's. ;) Insults that can't be understood/heard - great for releasing pent up frustration!

Miko is NOT going to go evil.

Remember people the Inquisition was 'morally' on the Good side and look what they did to people! :o It's amazing what you can 'get away with' in the pursuit of law and justice!

wmcduff

2006-02-23, 08:49 AM

If you're playing a paladin and there's no third option (between two evil choices) you have a bad DM. That's why not everyone is qualified to DM for a paladin.

I'd argue the exact opposite. A good DM should make you twist between two bad choices sometimes, and sometimes two good choices when you can't have both. If all choices were black and white, I'd dislike it...

nagora

2006-02-23, 08:56 AM

Chronomancer

2006-02-23, 09:00 AM

Not. The "philosophical commitment to balance between good and evil, law and chaos" concept of True Neutral went the way of the dodo when 3ed came out. Being True Neutral now means simply: too good to be evil, too evil to be good, too ordered to be chaotic, and too chaotic to be lawful.

Did NOT!! Geez... Quote from the SRD:

Some neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run.

Here for your reference:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#theNineAlignments

To nagora:
The Alignment system never changed much all the way from 1st Ed. So your applying of 1st Ed alignments to 3.5 Ed is about 99% correct. You can read up the wording of the new alignment descriptions in the link above if interested.

Karkadinn

2006-02-23, 09:02 AM

Miko, to me, reads like an absolute pillorying of the sort of player who takes the paladin class, ignores the Wisdom stat requirement, and plays the class/character without introspection, without joy, without appreciation for the moral conflict and questions that the paladin class, played by the best players, is capable of uncovering and dealing with.

Were I her DM, I'd be throwing moral quandry after moral quandry at her, and, IF she only responded with a letter-of-the-law rant, I'd throw her some dreams and visions to shake her up. But that's me. ;)

A paladin, played correctly, with insight, wisdom, sympathy, and understanding. . . or a character whose BROUGHT to those characterisitics over time and through suffering. . . is an unparalleled joy, both for the player and the DM. They are not robots, and need not have a stick up their bums.

Pretty dang good for a first post if ya ask me. :)
I would have to respectfully disagree to an extent, though.
As of 3.0 and onwards, there are no stat requirements as such for paladins or any other classes, IIRC. This opens the door to some really crazy, inefficient stat/class combinations, such as clerics without the Charisma to turn undead, rogues without the Dexterity to pick pockets, and paladins without the Wisdom to figure out when they're being jackasses.
These possibilities don't necessarily mean that you're playing the character wrong... you're just choosing a suboptimal path that means your character is less good at his/her profession than a more minmaxed character would be. Neither minmaxing nor its opposite are signs of a bad character in and of themselves... of course, one could argue that choosing to roleplay a character with a personality type that specifically comes into regular heated conflict with the rest of the party is a bad decision on the part of the player, but ultimately, if everyone's enjoying themselves, that's all that matters. It's entirely possible for a player to play a Miko type with deep appreciation for the foolish, self-destructive singlemindedness of the character... and it's likewise possible for the characters of the rest of the party to disagree vehemently with the Miko-Clone for their own individual petty, yet understandable reasons while their actual players are enjoying themselves without any particular ire towards the paladin's player.
The paladin class has a lot of baggage about stick-up-the-bum types from previous editions, but try to get past all that and look at each paladin as an individual, not a class archetype. You wouldn't try to railroad a low Strength fighter character into signing in with the local gymnasium and getting the exercise to pump up his muscles, would you? Let characters have their flaws, unless those flaws are causing problems with the players rather than the characters....

Chronomancer

2006-02-23, 09:03 AM

That's a shame. Druids were interesting as TNs, and made sense to boot.

As I just posted, they still exist in that exact way if you like it.

So don't worry. :)

Marller

2006-02-23, 09:09 AM

Remember people the Inquisition was 'morally' on the Good side and look what they did to people! :o It's amazing what you can 'get away with' in the pursuit of law and justice!
That's reality, sadly. In D&D the gods can responds audibly.

Dark_Stalion

2006-02-23, 09:09 AM

Remind me to never piss off a psycopathic paladin. That just aint right. I suspect that Miko will fall very soon.

GeekLordAragorn12

2006-02-23, 09:32 AM

Woohoo! Another Amazing comic, Giant! :) Thanks for the comic ;D

Lostdruid

2006-02-23, 09:36 AM

Ah, the angry stewing the builds Blackguards... It brings a little tear to my eye.

SteveMB

2006-02-23, 10:04 AM

Oh, and Belkar had her right where he wanted her. "Do it... c'mon, do it..."

I wonder why, though? ???
The obvious motive is that he wanted to goad her into an act that would cause her to fall from paladinhood. (Whether or not you believe that killing Belkar under those circumstances would have that effect, it seems clear to me that Belkar thought it would, and would have died happily confident that he's won that victory.)

Anybody else reminded of the final confrontation between Batman and the Joker in The Dark Knight Returns?

battleburn

2006-02-23, 10:08 AM

Does anyone else think of the whitecloaks in 'The Wheel of Time' when hearing that of Miko??

She is doing the wrong thing while strictly believing otherwise.

Wanderlust

2006-02-23, 10:15 AM

Looks like I had to go to work mere minutes before #285 was posted. *sigh* Though it did make my night interesting pondering the outcomes.

Firstly, way to go V. That was sweet.

Second, I also wonder if Belkar had something up his sleeve for Miko, were she to attack. Yeah, he got 'run through,' but in game terms it's the HP that matters, and as someone stated, even if you're in the lowest % of your HP you can still make actions to a degree.

I wonder if #286 will be a cut-away to Xykon or LG, or if we'll get some closure for this chapter of the story. And I agree with the motion to avoid another courtroom scene (one is cool, any more than that is redundant).

Rainee_Sue

2006-02-23, 10:16 AM

20 points each to Haley and Roy, and 30 to Vaarsuvius -- who just summed up precisely why I've been pulling for Belkar in this fight: Miko and Belkar have both, in the past, caused trouble for the rest of the Order. Arresting, random stabbing, the list goes on; point is that any given member of the OotS has pretty good reason to dislike either one of them.

But Belkar just causes trouble because it's in his nature. And because of that, the nature of his trouble is usually predictable and can be headed off. Whereas Miko causes them trouble because she has a very strongly held anger and/or bias against them. Basically, just dealing with either one of them is trouble enough; when you add on Miko's sanctimonious, shrieking-harpy attitude (no offense to actual shrieking harpies) she becomes nigh unbearable.

It's kind of like what I'll take from my friends vs. what I'll take from strangers. There are certain things that my good friends can say to me -- correct me in certain situations, confront me on certain behaviors -- without me getting angry. But if someone I'd only known for a short while said the same thing to me, I'd have to fight off the urge to smack them.

That, and even when my friends DO correct me, they can usually explain their opinion on it beyond "I am an LG paladin and better than you, and you're way too dumb to understand why you're wrong, so just shut up and do what I say". Miko? Not so much. Yeah, she's just following orders, but I'm looking at it from the POV of the Order.

In conclusion, as a reader, she bugs the crap out of me and I want her to go away, because Belkar is more amusing.

SteveMB

2006-02-23, 10:22 AM

Why does he not sharply rebuke her for taking on the whole Order right there in front of him?
Why would he? She didn't start that part of the fight.

He "requests" that she go to her quarters?
That phrasing is simple courtesy; it's clearly an order, and IMO Shojo would have made that abundantly clear if Miko had given him any backtalk.

He openly commends her for doing her duty and notes how tough it was for her to do it?
Why not? She did and it was.

I think Shojo agrees with her completely.
I find that extremely unlikely, given that Shojo asked Roy to remain a moment to hear out whatever it was Mr. Scruffy had to say.

Shecky

2006-02-23, 10:25 AM

Does anyone else think of the whitecloaks in 'The Wheel of Time' when hearing that of Miko??

She is doing the wrong thing while strictly believing otherwise.

Absolutely. Jaret Byar and Dain Bornhald, specifically. Not Galad - he doesn't get angry when people don't live up to his standards, just disappointed. And Eamon Valda was just plain evil and hid it under his white cloak. I don't think Miko has quite the anger of Byar or Bornhald, but she definitely has the combo of rationalization and lack of metacognizance.

Falkus

2006-02-23, 10:29 AM

The problem is you assume their is a third option. Their isn't always. What is it then? Is passivly allowing death to avoid active murder on your part really better.

D&D is heroic fantasy, there's always another solution.

Quixote

2006-02-23, 11:04 AM

In the fight against Miko, Roy is using his club, Vaarsuvius his/her magic and Haley her bow. So why isn't Elan singing? That's what he does in a fight, isn't it?

...and that's the question I was going to ask, until I thought about it and decided that Elan singing would have spoiled the mood of the fight a bit. I mean, if I had been drawing the strip, I would have also chosen for Elan not to be singing.

I mention this as an example of 'think what the answer might be before you ask a question'... most people in this forum tend to ask questions I believe they already know the answers to...

...

*cough* *cough*

And now I'm going to shut up and go sit over here.

:-X

Elven_magister

2006-02-23, 11:07 AM

Miko is just to lawful :) Good work Giant. It would be cool to either see her join up with OOTS or meet her end by it 8)

Vampire_Boy

2006-02-23, 11:08 AM

As for the strip in general, I now love V more than ever. :) And Miko certainly comes across as being on the verge of a complete mental breakdown - one way or the other, I'm sure we haven't seen the last of her.

Yes, but fortunately I think it has been made very clear that she will not be travelling with the OOTS as a PC, something I was really dreading. I'm not opposed to have her remain as an antagonist, I suppose. Agreed about the mental breakdown too - she seems bordering on insanity, already.

Euphemism

2006-02-23, 11:11 AM

1. No, people's perceptions of good are socially or individually constructed.

2. Neither.

2b. A deity that is both good and thinking rationally would order his paladin--who is both immune to diseases and capable of curing them--to orchestrate a quarantine and healing effort, not destroy a village of innocents.

2c. Said deity would also be capable of finding some way to extend the liege's life which didn't involve turning the liege into an evil being which paladins are sworn to hunt down and destroy.

3. Rhetorical questions are rarely persuasive or useful in discussions, as they are typically vague and tend to obscure important distinctions, rather than illuminate them.

4. You don't "keep the light shining" by doing dastardly deeds of darkness.

5. Alliteration is fun.

6. There is no 7.

Wow, nice catch Octopod. I missed the Javert connection there, but that fits really well.

1. - we'll just agree to disagree on this one.
2. When you have two options, and no more, what do you choose?
2b. The disease was due to an artifact, and ignored the rules of standard curing and immunity.
2c. Not all liches are evil. According to the original description of a lich, "some are just souls so devoted to their research, they do not notice when their bodies pass on." Just because the current spells in the spellbooks are listed as evil does not mean research cannot be conducted for a neutral version of the rite.
3. Aren't all arguments rhetorical, including your own in this very response?
4. Again, two choices.

Anyhoo, the point is moot. The sessions are over, and all players involved apparently agreed with or could accept the logic, as they returned to the table again and again.

Euphemism

2006-02-23, 11:13 AM

If you're playing a paladin and there's no third option (between two evil choices) you have a bad DM. That's why not everyone is qualified to DM for a paladin.
Thank you for informing me that I am unsuited to DM for my own NPC.

snelson66

2006-02-23, 11:18 AM

Does anyone else think of the whitecloaks in 'The Wheel of Time' when hearing that of Miko??
Absolutely. Complete disconnection from reality. Like a horse with the blinders on. Only sees things in shades of black or white; no grey (which then leads to "we are grey... we stand between the candle and the darkness..")

Squall83

2006-02-23, 11:23 AM

What were these two evil choices? I'd like to try to find an alternative (just as a litte challenge for me ^^).

GKBeetle

2006-02-23, 11:23 AM

These possibilities don't necessarily mean that you're playing the character wrong... you're just choosing a suboptimal path that means your character is less good at his/her profession than a more minmaxed character would be. Neither minmaxing nor its opposite are signs of a bad character in and of themselves... of course, one could argue that choosing to roleplay a character with a personality type that specifically comes into regular heated conflict with the rest of the party is a bad decision on the part of the player, but ultimately, if everyone's enjoying themselves, that's all that matters. It's entirely possible for a player to play a Miko type with deep appreciation for the foolish, self-destructive singlemindedness of the character... and it's likewise possible for the characters of the rest of the party to disagree vehemently with the Miko-Clone for their own individual petty, yet understandable reasons while their actual players are enjoying themselves without any particular ire towards the paladin's player.
The paladin class has a lot of baggage about stick-up-the-bum types from previous editions, but try to get past all that and look at each paladin as an individual, not a class archetype. You wouldn't try to railroad a low Strength fighter character into signing in with the local gymnasium and getting the exercise to pump up his muscles, would you? Let characters have their flaws, unless those flaws are causing problems with the players rather than the characters....

Perfect, that's exactly what I wanted to say, but could not have said it so eloquently. It seems that a lot of people here think that Miko either has to change to a nice person or become evil. I don't think that's necessarily true at all. She could just keep doing her business while thinking that she is always right and never turn towards evil or figure out that she's a big meany. I wouldn't want her to change. Even though I do not like her, that's who she is and she probably won't change.

The_Cardinal

2006-02-23, 11:32 AM

Miko's kinda cute when she's angry... ::)

crippits

2006-02-23, 11:44 AM

Yeah, too bad V didn't use disintigrate, or the *shudders* spiked tenctacles of forced intrusion on Miko. I realy don't like Miko at all. I would not like it if she were to be foreced to join OotS. I think it would be interesting to haev the OotS have enemies that are both totally evil, and Lawful Good. It kinda puts them in the middle as a whole.

The reference to the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan makes sence. I don't know why I never made the connection between paladins and whitecloaks before. They are both usually portrayed as creepy people.

Miko seems to be heading down a dark path. I don't think it's a very good thing to be wanting to feel sin-stained blood spilled on the cold hard ground. I read that, and though nasty sick paladin. Then I realized, wait a nast sick paladin? That does not sound right at all.

Sebastian

2006-02-23, 11:45 AM

The obvious motive is that he wanted to goad her into an act that would cause her to fall from paladinhood. (Whether or not you believe that killing Belkar under those circumstances would have that effect, it seems clear to me that Belkar thought it would, and would have died happily confident that he's won that victory.)

I think I can see the next comic

Belkar: Damn it, guys. Why do you stopped her, I had the bitch right where I wanted. She had only to strike me while I was down and *POOF* bye, bye paladin status.

Roy: Well, that is not sure, what it is sure is that if she had hit you one more time, you would have been most certainly dead.

Belkar .....oh,...Oh,right. I thought that there was something that I could have forgot to consider.

Alfryd

2006-02-23, 11:48 AM

You can be up to full consciousness even as you are dying - does that not count as helpless?
Under D&D rules, you have full fighting fitness right up to the point where your HP reach 0. Under 0, you are dying (-1 HP/round until you stabilise,) unconscious and helpless. No-one ever said this made much sense.

In summary, this strip was a quite well-crafted denouement to this little action sequence. And now I come to think of it, slightly disappointed as I am in Miko, I am sorely disappointed with Belkar, if such a thing is possible.
Up until now, Belkar has displayed a kind of instinctive, primitive evil, done for fun and profit. But this is something else entirely. If my (and others') hypothesis is correct, and he has intricately baited Miko into a situation where her Falling seemed likely, risking in the process not only great pain, but freedom, life and limb, purely for the sake of revenge, this goes beyond the bounds of what you might call conventional malice. This is Diabolic evil. Evil that harms others even when it harms the perpetrator. Gratuitous and insane. And the degree of forethought involved here... whatever Miko may have to do to patch up relations and straighten her priorities, I don't think Belkar has exactly come out ahead of the game either.

cruciare

2006-02-23, 11:49 AM

Great strip Rich! Awesome conclusion and I cant wait for Fridays strip ... so ... hurry up and post it early!

garylian

2006-02-23, 11:50 AM

motub

2006-02-23, 11:51 AM

Hey, I'm going to open the proverbial can of worms here:
Why is loyalty more important than what someone does? Why should you help someone who is evil survive simply because they helped you in the past? Why is what someone has done for you more important than the greater good?

Hey, all, new registrant, first post, thus.

I've been reading this thread (almost all 21 pages), and it seems to me that most everybody is passing over an important point (but maybe it's somewhere on pages 13-20 :) ).

Law.

Imo, this is not about Evil vs. Good, it's about being Lawful, which is even "more" a Paladin requirement than being Good is.

Roy actually says it, in a roundabout way: "It's about loyalty". In Roy's case, in terms of his relationship with the other members of the OotS, "loyalty" is defined, presumably quite specifically, by the terms of the legally-binding contract which we know that the members have signed, and which was unofficially extended (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=139) when they went after the starmetal.

Presumably nothing that Belkar has done has broken his end of the contract (which must either avoid mentioning, permit, or exempt the possibility of evil acts by Belkar that fall outside the terms of the contract, which was originally to aid Roy in defeating Xyklon), therefore as a Lawful character, Roy is absolutely bound to protect Belkar, because Belkar's contract is still valid. That's what "loyalty" is ultimately, keeping up your end of the agreement-- whether it be for emotional reasons (affection, love), or contractual ("it's the right thing to do").

Miko is breaking the law. Killing Belkar, no matter if he murdered the guard or not, without due process, is not a lawful act (which is likely why Shojo goes out of his way to mention Law in his comment). I mean, she didn't see him kill the guard, so despite her fervent belief that Belkar is responsible, it is within the realm of possibility that he didn't do it-- Yes, I know he did do it (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=261), but since there were no witnesses, Miko's belief is just that, a belief, not proof, and certainly not incontrovertible evidence. The guard might have fallen faint from his (moderately severe) injuries and accidentally killed himself on his sword, for all we know. And anyway, how is killing a guard who's trying to prevent your escape supposed to be "in cold blood"? Just because Belkar successfully got the jump on the guard and defeated him without the guard being able to actively fight back doesn't really make it "murder" in the "classic" sense. Enemies fight, one loses. It's still naturally a crime on Belkar's part, but not necessarily one that justifies him being killed out of hand for "murder".

Civilized people call acting as judge, jury and executioner without the benefit of trial "vigilanteism", and it is not generally considered Lawful behaviour, though it may be considered (A) Good (Thing To Do).

But if this is the case, why doesn't Shojo intervene quicker to preserve her Lawful behaviour? Of course, maybe he doesn't like her either, and would be just as soon rid of her (she would presumably be ejected from the Sapphire Guard if she lost her Lawful alignment). And there's not necessarily any requirement by a Lawful Good paladin (assuming Shojo is in fact Lawful Good, which we will for the purposes of the argument) to intervene and prevent someone (even Miko) from making her own mistakes and living with the consequences (especially if that gets her out of his hair). Plus, maybe he realized that the team would stop her without him having to pull rank, so he saved that option until he really had to use it, which of course he did when she was going to take on the entire OotS like a fool (that certainly would not have been Lawful, as they only disagreed with her judgement, which is not a crime in anyone's mind but Miko's).

She's definitely dancing on the edge of sanity, which is not exactly unheard of in a Paladin (NWN, anyone?), but she's getting pretty scary. I'm glad she's been sent to her room... but I don't think it will help much. She seems like a brooder to me, and getting sent to your room is nothing but more time to brood on the injustices she perceives.

In any case, it should all be (even more) interesting to see what happens next (for quite a while to come). Great work, Rich-- lovin' it!

(And yes, Haley's single line was well worth the time I took to decode it myself. Thanks for that, too.)

xyzchyx

2006-02-23, 11:53 AM

The criminal charges against Belkar appear to be, in chronological order:

1) Jailbreak (The rest of the OotS *tried* to get away, but they stopped when they realized they would be caught).
2) Killing a prison guard (poor guy, I feel sorry for him).
3) Resisting arrest (even if it was all just in the name of fun for him)
4) Assaulting an appointed officer of the law (Miko, of course)

Only one of Belkar's crimes listed here was mentioned to Shojo in this strip as justification for Miko's actions (although I suspect that the other 3 were probably fairly obvious). Miko is slipping.

gooddragon1

2006-02-23, 12:10 PM

I think the only charge that Belkar should be brought to trial on is murder, although he did do all the other things, he didn't do them without trying to escape which is just self preservation.

Sundog

2006-02-23, 12:18 PM

Except, Goodragon1, that most places make it illegal to attempt to escape legal custody. Regardless of your reasons.

gooddragon1

2006-02-23, 12:22 PM

Except, Goodragon1, that most places make it illegal to attempt to escape legal custody. Regardless of your reasons.
Yah, i guess, but still they should take it into consideration when trying him for his crimes

xrestassuredx

2006-02-23, 12:28 PM

Sigh ... coming to this discussion late, as usual. Seems no matter what time or how long I wait, the comic goes up while I'm not around to see it. In this case, I was hitting refresh for about twelve hours straight, and it went up about five minutes after I had fallen asleep at the computer :'(.

Whatever anyone else says, this strip didn't disappoint me at all. There are still unanswered questions, and we may never be able to decide what Belkar intended in all of this, if anything, unless the answer comes up in a strip. Belkar may have been plotting Miko's fall, but somehow I doubt that he was really wanting to die. I suspect that, especially after playing Miko so perfectly, he knew his party would come to his rescue. Of course, that's assuming he did actually plan to fall into the middle of the trial. It's quite possible that it happened by chance, and Belkar is actually quite good at playing situations off the cuff, coming up quickly with ideas to play off the people around him (as evidence, consider his quippy reaction to being tackled by femRoy in #242, which later turned out to be a complete ruse).

I suspect we will soon find out what Haley's revelation was and what Mr. Scruffy has to say. And that we'll not see Miko again for a while.

I never expected Belkar to die, and I expected one of three things to happen; Miko's Smite failing due to an alignment change in Belkar or a revocation of her own power (most unlikely, particularly given the Giant's repeated insistence upon Belkar's Evilness, but a possibility nonetheless), an order from Shojo to desist (as did happen, but later in the game), or intervention from one of the Order (probably V, due to his demonstrated dislike for Miko and the fact that he's the only one to have attempted a preemptive attack on her -- Explosive Runes in#220. Roy could also have been the one to have stepped in). So, I'm feeling pretty good that I was right, on one-and-a-half counts (?).

Other observations/points/questions:

Belkar must have been at exactly 0 HP, instead of negative. You can't "fake" being completely impaled in the last comic, but he's standing in this one with no apparent healing, so he must be at 0.

I don't know how much has been established about the levels and builds of the different PCs, but I do recall someone saying that the members of OotS are likely lvl 8-9 (I don't remember where?). Anyway, just pointing out that V is at least level 11, with three beams to his Scorching Ray. We haven't seen his big pink aura thing going on before, that I remember, but it's pretty darn cool.

How many spells can V have prepared -- he must have done it in the few rounds since their items were returned in the previous strip? I assume his spellbooks were among the items confiscated with their arrest.

"whose mental capacity would be compared unfavorably to that of a table." Hahaha, that line alone was worth the wait for this one. Granted, Belkar has low WIS, but demonstrably high INT, and I guess that doesn't change the fact that V's locution is hilarious.

Durkon must be so confused as to why Thor "wanted" them to come here, but he's still not joining his party. He could at least be healing Belkar. Would an anti-magic cell wouldn't prevent him from praying and getting spells for the day?

.. there were other things I wanted to note while reading through the 24 pages (probably more by the time I finish typing this) of the thread, but they escape me now. Ah well.

Bravo, Giant.

Swashbuckler

2006-02-23, 12:36 PM

I think I'm more excited and anticipating Friday's strip moreso than Yesterday's. ;D

Rich, you have created one heck of an addict here. Thanks for all of your wit and creativity!

Tawkis

2006-02-23, 12:41 PM

I'd argue the exact opposite. A good DM should make you twist between two bad choices sometimes, and sometimes two good choices when you can't have both. If all choices were black and white, I'd dislike it...

Law.

Imo, this is not about Evil vs. Good, it's about being Lawful, which is even "more" a Paladin requirement than being Good is.

I tend to disagree, I would say that a paladin should err to the side of good. *******************************
SRD: Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
**********************************
Notice it says evil act not a chaotic act. Since chaos is implied in the "additionally" section I would say that by design paladins are more "beholden" to good than law. That's all the support I'll ever use, but primarily it's my take on what a paladin is.

I would also point out that some of Belkar's contributions to the order (Helping to defeat Xykon, the LG, and the Black Dragon) have worked towards the greater good of the world (actually the multiverse even). Roy IMO is doing the right thing by protecting him, at least from being arbitrailly cut down in courtroom.

Durkon must be so confused as to why Thor "wanted" them to come here, but he's still not joining his party. He could at least be healing Belkar. Would an anti-magic cell wouldn't prevent him from praying and getting spells for the day?
Durkon has joined his party note what he says.
"Not unless ya force me ta."
Meaning the ball is in your court sister, but make the wrong choice and you're hops and barley for Thor's Ale. WWTD after all.........
His next line is attempting to reason with her.

terrainmonkey

2006-02-23, 12:43 PM

okay, i'll put my 2 francs into the discussion about miko. As one who plays paladins almost exclusively in game, i can understand why Miko is going after Belkar so intently. Belkar has always hiddine his evil status from her. Belkar killed a gauard, escaped from jail, and attacked her in a most dishonorable fashion. She has made it her mission to bring him down by any means neccessary. When she finally did, however, there was a slight betrayal of the Good in her. When an opponent, chaotic or evil, surrendered or was rendered helpless, her duty as a paladin would be to accept the surrender honorably and make sure said opponent was captured. Apparently in her Lawfulness, she didn't think of this and was ready to smite down a helpless belkar. This was clearly NOT a good act.
As for the next point, after reading the final monologue of the strip we discover that while holding to the lawful ethos, she feels that the OOTS is Evil, which clearly they are not. What we have here is two different types of Ethos. Miko clearly sees the OOTS as now diametrically opposed to her ethos. She feels she is lawful good, and that the OOTS is chaotic evil. This is where her logic breaks down. She has sworn Vengeance on the order, and wishes to see them destroyed. This is how paladins turn to Blackguards. This is how i see the next few strips running. She will denounce the king, step down as a paladin and wander the streets looking for enemies of the order. She will find the Others and find out that they want to defeat the OOTS and join them. This will in turn lead her down a path to become a Blackguard. She will be lawful Evil, and become the opponent to Belkar. She will never turn good at all, and this will come to her death. She is too wrapped up in the "Holy Vengeance" thing to turn back to good.
Looking at the story, i believe that both Belkar and her will kill each other. Since the beginning of their relationship they have hated each other. I can see neither of them coming out of this alive, sadly. The needs of the story demand it.
anyway, sorry to go so long here.

Istielthia

2006-02-23, 12:51 PM

There have been so very many things said in this thread already, so of which I agree with, some of which I don't, so I will just say this:

Good job, Giant. I enjoyed this one immensely.

Espher

2006-02-23, 12:54 PM

garylian

2006-02-23, 12:56 PM

Great strip, Giant!

I still was hoping Miko would have gotten more of a smackdown from Shojo. And maybe he will tell Roy that they are free to go, but he would like them to quest to close the other 4 gates. Then throw Miko under the bus and put her with OotS, but under Roy's direct command.

That would allow for her character development to continue. She's on the edge right now. A little more kindness from Durkon, and maybe some easing up by Roy, and she might start to make some friends.

Besides, if the stick up her ass falls out, Belkar wouldn't have a reason to taunt her anymore. It wouldn't be nearly as fun.

Kyre

2006-02-23, 12:57 PM

Augh! Having to delurk just cause of all the conversation, and the marvelous strip. Alright, some points to cover.

People are arguing about Belkar's HP state, and why he was 'too weak to get up', yet able to soon afterwards. Here's my take on things.

He was above 0 HP, and could move perfectly fine (even if a bit dazed). It suited his purpose not to get up, because he was not fighting what was happening to him. He wanted to make her Fall in such a spectacular fashion, giving in to her anger in such a way. Even had he wanted to, being prone is almost preferable. He had an AC penalty, but he could still potentially dodge out of the way. Trying to stand up would have provoked an AoO that Miko seemed all too eager to take. Besides--with the OOTS there, he would know that they would try to stop her from hurting him.

As far as Miko...

Does Miko fall? The $64 question. The answer, in traditional spoiler prediction...

(Spoiler)
I don't think so, at least, not immediately. She came /really/ close here, but I can't see making her Fall yet. However, I think if nothing else, she needs to Atone--to try and make up for the damage to her alignment, effectively.

For those who know Hackmaster, I'll use an example there--for those who don't, a short explanation first. In HackMaster, there are degrees of alignment breach. Any material breach is worth points--any material action in alignment is worth points that go against such. Having 5 penalties on the Law/Chaos axis, or the Good/Evil axis can trigger an alignment change when higher powers judge your faithfulness--having 9 changes you automatically.

I believe that Miko has earned a few points towards Chaos with these actions, and 1 point towards Evil. This, in itself, is not enough to warrant an immediate Fall--but it is enough to warrant some introspection to see what she can do to avoid changing alignment (and thereby Falling due to invalid alignment.)
(/Spoiler)

Well, this probably won't be my last post...I apologize for such in advance. ;)

Starbuck_II

2006-02-23, 12:58 PM

I don't see the Blackguard thing happening. She is too zealous to fall. She really believes she is doing good. Her last speech of the comic was a little... sadistic, but she was angry. She said the Order would suffer for choosing Evil, but she didn't say "I'll get you for this!" Either way, I doubt we have seen the last of her.
"The Path to hell is paved with good intentions"
Describes Miko to a tee.

You can turn evil by doing what you think is good. You just haer to be confused about what is good or a zealot.

Miko's turn to the dark side of the Paladin side shall come, mark my words. 8)

Espher

2006-02-23, 01:02 PM

I must say I've found it hilarious in all my lurking how opposed people are to the "stick up the arse" stereotypical paladin, but have no gripes with the "loving of fluffy bunnies and sunshine and rainbows" stereotypical paladin.

Considering the former is more in line with a religious warrior, it just makes me chuckle on so many levels.

Rylon

2006-02-23, 01:02 PM

Yay Belkar lives!

I did not mind the wait, it allowed the wife to catch up some on the comics.

The big question for me is why? why? why? Did Belkar lead her there and beg her to finnish him...What was his plan!

Great work!

xyzchyx

2006-02-23, 01:10 PM

Yah, i guess, but still they should take it into consideration when trying him for his crimesEven our modern laws, which grant prisoners far more rights than what prisoners would have in times represented in a fantasy setting, do not do this. Breaking out of jail and assulting a police officer is wholly illegal, and even if you are innocent of the crime for which they are putting behind bars for. And even if you are vindicated of the original crime, you can and will still face a pretty heavy penalty for those actions.

There seems to be a little bit of leniency on the part of modern courts with regards to resisting arrest if the person is ultimately found innocent, as long as such resistance is not violent in any way (eg, simply fleeing), but that's only from what I've seen in cases I've witnessed, and probably should not be taken as a general rule.

Freeman333

2006-02-23, 01:25 PM

We have, in fact, met two evil outsiders (barring one-shot characters): Sabine, and any of the demon roaches.

Hey...that's right. The "demon roaches" are, in fact, demons, aren't they? I forgot about that. Makes we wonder how they ended up hanging around dungeons on this hell-forsaken plane, but I guess I wouldn't put it past Xykon to leave little portals to the infernal planes lying open out of sheer laziness, and who knows what might come wandering through when the kitchen is left uncleaned...

Anyway, quite a strip--and another double, which once again makes me wonder if we've somehow been unexpectedly good. Perhaps we're being set up for some major retribution, on the other hand. Or maybe I'm just too suspicious of a good thing (in which case being able to read a nigh-infinite number of comics for free over the internet would set off my warning lights all by itself, you'd think). The strip itself answers a great many questions and makes for a fantastic climactic moment.

However, there is at least one question being raised by this strip that I feel I must demand an answer to. Namely: who the heck is running those spotlights that follow all the characters around? I guess they were running during the trial to give emphasis to the speakers and those testifying, but they haven't quit throughout the whole battle sequence. Very dramatic--some kind of evocation spell, perhaps? "Improved Dramatic Lighting"? Sounds like a high-level bard spell of the sort Elan will be wasting slots for very soon...

Lady_Orc

2006-02-23, 01:35 PM

Yes, but fortunately I think it has been made very clear that she will not be travelling with the OOTS as a PC, something I was really dreading. I'm not opposed to have her remain as an antagonist, I suppose. Agreed about the mental breakdown too - she seems bordering on insanity, already.

Miko travelling with the Order is what I was dreading myself. I don't quite dare relax about it just yet, but the future now looks a lot brighter. :)

Spuddly

2006-02-23, 01:47 PM

Belkar looks to be in a heap of trouble.

Tacho

2006-02-23, 01:47 PM

I really don't see her traveling with the order because of the massive conflict that she has wth the OOTS. But the question remains that if the OOTS is let go w/o the trial of Belkar, what will Miko do?

Marller

2006-02-23, 01:55 PM

Under D&D rules, you have full fighting fitness right up to the point where your HP reach 0. Under 0, you are dying (-1 HP/round until you stabilise,) unconscious and helpless. No-one ever said this made much sense.

In summary, this strip was a quite well-crafted denouement to this little action sequence. And now I come to think of it, slightly disappointed as I am in Miko,
Well, she was set aflame, used as a pincushion and possibly more, which we didn't see due to the trial, by Belkar. No wonder she is ready to explode.

Nobody says that paladins should only fall through moral dilemma. A paladin might be very well struggling with his temper his entire life to prevent a fall. Might not be good for a gaming table but it fits nicely into a told story. And i doubt she would turn blackguard just because she lost once her temper, despite what many people wish on this board.

I am sorely disappointed with Belkar, if such a thing is possible.
Up until now, Belkar has displayed a kind of instinctive, primitive evil, done for fun and profit. But this is something else entirely. If my (and others') hypothesis is correct, and he has intricately baited Miko into a situation where her Falling seemed likely, risking in the process not only great pain, but freedom, life and limb, purely for the sake of revenge, this goes beyond the bounds of what you might call conventional malice. This is Diabolic evil. Evil that harms others even when it harms the perpetrator. Gratuitous and insane. And the degree of forethought involved here... whatever Miko may have to do to patch up relations and straighten her priorities, I don't think Belkar has exactly come out ahead of the game either.
I doubt there was much of a plan on Belkars part. He just didn't want to die a senseless death, i don't think he's the guy to fret about his own death.

Tomada

2006-02-23, 02:02 PM

For the Order, loyalty is the point of this denouement. They're finally an adventuring group, instead of Roy and his hirelings who don't like each other much. They're no longer held together with fraying cobwebs.

Thank you.

This must be the MOST important detail on this strip.

Thank you

S_l_a_w

2006-02-23, 02:05 PM

I doubt there was much of a plan on Belkars part. He just didn't want to die a senseless death, i don't think he's the guy to fret about his own death.

eat this ;]
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206

slaw

garylian

2006-02-23, 02:11 PM

Congratulations to everyone who drew the conclusion that a paladin making an intimidating speech and a threat of religious redemption delivered by her hand towards an exceptionally evil character and a band of suspect and rebellious individuals who have already betrayed her confidence once constitutes a fall from grace.

I now bestow upon you the "Supporters of the Paladins are Carebears Theory" award.

While I think you are correct, use some punctuation in that marathon sentence! We grammar/punctuation nazis thank you in advance! lol

Seriously, though. All characters are how you play them. And stereotyping any character/person is just a road to getting your own come uppance when they make a move you didn't expect.

Sanctu

2006-02-23, 02:17 PM

Thank you, Slaw. My thought exactly on that.

Excellent strip, as always.

As a side comment, I point out that we have also seen a celestial cockroach as well. That made me laugh a lot.

Edit: did anyone else find the irony of calling a stick figure's thighs fat?

Coffee_Dragon

2006-02-23, 02:21 PM

This is pretty much how it should/had to work out. Belkar lives on and stays with the party; Miko doesn't fall, scores a moral victory, and leaves for now with a promise to return further down the plot. I am pleased.

nagora

2006-02-23, 02:32 PM

The question about the two choices "damn the world or save it but at the cost of losing 500 people," I think it was, brings us to the question of the difference between LG and CG. This is a question that Nagora is in a good place to answer as he was a 13th level CG fighter. Take it away Nagora:

"I say we fight to the end. We must expend every hit point and spell, every magic item every second of time until the last possible moment trying to find a third way. But in the end, we can not violate the right of a person to find their destiny to the point of killing them, unless they are evil or volunteer. If it means we all die then at least it means we all choose that path and go down with the ship. Do do otherwise is to place yourself in a position of godhood over not just those 500, but also the countless ones saved. That is ultimate power and will corrupt ultimately.

If there is no third way to be found except escape, then every individual must decide whether to go or not. I would go and take as many with me as possible but I would not murder 500 innocents even if it were to save the universe. Better to die Good than to live through evil."

Okay. Now lets ask a Paladin:

"If there is no third way we must, with deep pain and anguish, sacrifice the 500. We must expend every hit point and spell, every magic item every second of time until the last possible moment trying to find a third way. But, in the situation given in the question, the rights of the many must sadly outweigh those of the few. Society lives beyond the individual and from that society would come those like myself who would never rest until justice for this great crime has been rendered.

If there was no third way except escape I would not take it. Nagora would run away from his responsibility, I would hope the gods gave me strength to face it and the power to later right this terrible wrong. Better to live to atone and avenge, than to die guiltless but impotent."

At this point I'd expect a punch-up to break out if they were in the same tavern, but that's just the drink talking. Or something.

So there you go: two men's opinions. I think the application to Miko's rage is fairly obvious, as well as to my comments yesterday about the rights of Shojo to bring the Order to trial at all, which caused tempers to flare.

I also hope it illustrates that there are people who think LG is not the "best" alignment and have serious disagreements with its philosophy while still being Good.

I've never thought that there was any reason for Miko to fall in the Belkar thing and I still think she's fairly safe, albeit less so.

Edit: typos

Jaime

2006-02-23, 02:43 PM

Roy kicked ass in this strip. He's actually maturing as a person. Kind of interesting.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 02:46 PM

To properly understand this, it is best to have served in either a military or para-military (police, FF) unit.

You defend your teammates against outsiders, even if they sometimes or often piss you off. You don't chastise them in public, but reserve that for a private meeting.

The OotS has survived scarpes in the past due to Belkar's actions, and he is part of a psuedo-cohesive team. They know that they can rely on him when the <bleep> hits the fan.

There's an innate amount of trust that team members develop over the course of time. There are bonds that form "in uniform" that are stronger than you can imagine, especially if that bond has been combat/emergency tested.

There were guys in the fire service that I couldn't stand to be around. If they weren't fellow FFs, I wouldn't have pissed on them to put them out if they were on fire. But I'd risk my life for them without thought in the heat of an emergency.

Yeah, ok. So I admit that the order was doing the right thing to defend Belkar from Miko here. However, this raises in my mind a problem: Belkar has done a lot of evil things in plain sight of Roy. Roy may be loyal to him for being a comrade in arms, but is that worth the lives of innocents? Belkar, if he continues to live, will continue to murder. Roy knows this, but lets it slide because Belkar never betrayed them? Not that the party should kill Belkar, but they shouldn't let these things go either. They should take some action to try to prevent him from killing innocents, and not simply by keeping him in their party, which doesn't keep him from his hobby. Now, this is D&D and townsfolk probably don't matter at all to the players, but I don't know if letting a CE psychopath continue to murder wouldn't result in an alignment change. However, you have Calvin in your avatar, so all of your arguments automatically trump all ;).

okay, i'll put my 2 francs into the discussion about miko. As one who plays paladins almost exclusively in game, i can understand why Miko is going after Belkar so intently. Belkar has always hiddine his evil status from her. Belkar killed a gauard, escaped from jail, and attacked her in a most dishonorable fashion. She has made it her mission to bring him down by any means neccessary. When she finally did, however, there was a slight betrayal of the Good in her. When an opponent, chaotic or evil, surrendered or was rendered helpless, her duty as a paladin would be to accept the surrender honorably and make sure said opponent was captured. Apparently in her Lawfulness, she didn't think of this and was ready to smite down a helpless belkar. This was clearly NOT a good act.

But Miko held up, and didn't actually smite Belkar. She held back long enough for him to egg her on. Like a previous poster said, that took a lot of self-control after what he had done to her. I would say that by holding up, she was holding onto what good she has. She has no friends, no romantic interests, nothing but a liege and comrades in arms. No wonder she sees in black and white! No one apparantly takes time to show her the error of her ways, they just send her away on long missions. She is bordering on psychotic because all she has now is the paladins code. That is what defines her and really what she lives for, making her unstable and self-righteous and such. I thought that with some careful correction, she would start to change for the better, but she is simply becoming worse.

So what is the solution to all of this? Miko becomes a black guard and hooks up with BM! They have so much in common! (http://nuklearpower.com/latest.php)

"You know he's needlessly antagonistic to the other fat little monsters to make up for his poor self-image."

xrestassuredx

2006-02-23, 02:46 PM

eat this ;]
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206

slaw
Okay .. point?

That strip has been referenced about 9357432 times in the discussions since his escape, I fail to see the point in linking to it again with a snide comment. The comic has also been almost exclusively misquoted. Belkar says it would be a challenge to get away with stuff under the nose of a paladin, and it would be funny to see her fall by associating with him. That's it. Nowhere do you see him saying "I'm making it my goal to see Miko fall by whatever means necessary even if it means giving up my own life," yet that's how people are referring to it (or the kind of question people are linking it as a response to, as the case may be).

Yes, Belkar said it would be funny to try and see if Miko falls, nothing else. The point, however, is that we simply don't know what were his plans for the situation, if any. I hardly believe he intended to die just to see that happen.

(edit: typo)

theKOT

2006-02-23, 02:51 PM

Okay .. point?

That strip has been referenced about 9357432 times in the discussions since his escape, I fail to see the point in linking to it again with a snide comment. The comic has also been almost exclusively misquoted. Belkar says it would be a challenge to get away with stuff under the nose of a paladin, and it would be funny to see her fall by associating with him. That's it. Nowhere do you see him saying "I'm making it my goal to see Miko fall by whatever means necessary even if it means giving up my own life," yet that's how people are referring to it (or the kind of question people are linking it as a response to, as the case may be).

Yes, Belkar said it would be funny to try and see if Miko falls, nothing else. The point, however, is that we simply don't know what were his plans for the situation, if any. I hardly believe he intended to die just to see that happen.

(edit: typo)
He wouldn't have led her to him with drawings on the wall and woken her up when she was knocked out if self-preservation was that important to him.

xrestassuredx

2006-02-23, 03:06 PM

He wouldn't have led her to him with drawings on the wall and woken her up when she was knocked out if self-preservation was that important to him.

He wouldn't have done that if self-preservation was the only thing that was important to him. He obviously had other motives, but there's no way you can cite his comments in #206 as evidence that he planned to "martyr" himself just to see Miko fall.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 03:14 PM

He wouldn't have done that if self-preservation was the only thing that was important to him. He obviously had other motives, but there's no way you can cite his comments in #206 as evidence that he planned to "martyr" himself just to see Miko fall.
Nope. But the extent to which he was willing to go is really anyones guess. So we don't know whether or not he was, but it is a valid viewpoint, as nothing directly disproves it or even makes it less likely.

Godhand

2006-02-23, 03:15 PM

Mr. Giant, I must commend you. You have created a force stronger than that of Xykon. A palladin full of anger and fury is a force to be wary of. Plus, the phrase "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned," comes to mind. A crusading palladin can wreak more havoc than a lich if she has the right help. And who would help a LG crusader against evil? I think everyone can think of a few different heavenly beings who might.

I can only hope OoTS can weather this storm, because they are right between 2 that will soon be crashing together.

Daraniya

2006-02-23, 03:17 PM

<supposition> Why does lord Shojo tell Miko that her orders were to bring the "halfing" to the audience chamber? Would Belkar be relatives with the Serini from the crayon segment? and they are trying to find the location of the other gates just as Xykon is?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=276

</supposition>

D

Crazy_Uncle_Doug

2006-02-23, 03:27 PM

Belkar always struck me as a guy whose buttons are easily pushed, and so as a result gets a big kick out of pushing other people's buttons. That's how I've seen this whole exchange between the two. He's discovered what buttons set her off, and he's not happy unless she's in the same murderous rage he gets in when his buttons are pressed. Thus the "last words" of his, egging her on towards killing him. Thus, I'd agree that Belkar is evil. He takes enjoyment not just in killing people, but driving people into similar murderous rages as he has.

I wouldn't say Miko has fallen just yet. She came closer than she ever has in this storyline, but the actions of the OotS stopped that before she could comit the act which would have sent her too far. It's a bit ironic, considering it's been the actions of Belkar and the Order which have driven her to this point.

I'd also note that though I agree killing Belkar would cause her to become an ex-paladin, I wouldn't call it an evil act. Belkar is clearly evil and behaving in a willfully destructive and dangerous manner. Killing him wouldn't be evil. It would, however, be a lawless one, which is of what Shojo reminds her. The end result would have been the same.

The_Kobold_Hero

2006-02-23, 03:31 PM

Agreed on all points. If she (Miko) continues this, She'll end up being kicked out before you can say 'ex-paladin'.

whitemane

2006-02-23, 03:31 PM

Wow... what can I say... Here goes...

1. Belkar almost got what he wanted... he wanted to try and corrupt Miko...
2. Great quote from V...
3. Great speech from Roy...
4. Great quote from Haley (once translated...)
5. Shojo revealed that he wasn't the senile old man everyone thought he was... He took charge and put Miko in his place...

All in all... awesome strip!

Sebastian

2006-02-23, 03:35 PM

Okay. Now lets ask a paladin Lawful neutral Fighter

You missed a typo :)
Seriously, that was a lawful neutral position if I have ever read one with his society come before individuals and the rights of many.
A paladin at the very least would sacrfice only 499 persons because the 500th would be himself.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 03:36 PM

5. Shojo revealed that he wasn't the senile old man everyone thought he was... He took charge and put Miko in his place...

He could still be a senile old man. He didn't interrupt Miko until it was almost too late.

Vampire_Boy

2006-02-23, 03:36 PM

This is pretty much how it should/had to work out. Belkar lives on and stays with the party; Miko doesn't fall, scores a moral victory...

I'm curious, would you mind explaining where is her moral victory?

xyzchyx

2006-02-23, 03:42 PM

He could still be a senile old man. He didn't interrupt Miko until it was almost too late.But it WASN'T too late. That's the thing.

The_Weirdo

2006-02-23, 03:44 PM

Congratulations to everyone who drew the conclusion that a paladin making an intimidating speech and a threat of religious redemption delivered by her hand towards an exceptionally evil character and a band of suspect and rebellious individuals who have already betrayed her confidence once constitutes a fall from grace.

I now bestow upon you the "Supporters of the Paladins are Carebears Theory" award.

Even the Giant said she's on the verge of a breakdown. She attacked UNLAWFULLY the OOTS for preventing her from commiting an UNLAWFUL, EVIL act. Durkan said "let there be no more bloodshed". This can't be perceived as evil, no matter how much one's mind twists it. Her BOSS told her to stop. Would you support her for attacking him as well? For crying out loud, what will Miko have to do to become evil in your eyes? Take over the world and make it into a replica of the 1984 world??

battleburn

2006-02-23, 03:46 PM

I wouldn't say Miko has fallen just yet. She came closer than she ever has in this storyline, but the actions of the I wouldn't call it an evil act. Belkar is clearly evil and behaving in a willfully destructive and dangerous manner. Killing him wouldn't be evil. It would, however, be a lawless one, which is of what Shojo reminds her. The end result would have been the same.

An evil act isn't necessary to get revoked from paladin powers. She was about to do an unlawfull act. Killing the prisoner when he is down is unlawfull.
quad erat demonstrandum

xrestassuredx

2006-02-23, 03:47 PM

I'm curious, would you mind explaining where is her moral victory?
I was thinking the same thing when I read that, but forgot to comment..

theKOT

2006-02-23, 03:49 PM

Even the Giant said she's on the verge of a breakdown. She attacked UNLAWFULLY the OOTS for preventing her from commiting an UNLAWFUL, EVIL act. Durkan said "let there be no more bloodshed". This can't be perceived as evil, no matter how much one's mind twists it. Her BOSS told her to stop. Would you support her for attacking him as well? For crying out loud, what will Miko have to do to become evil in your eyes? Take over the world and make it into a replica of the 1984 world??
The "Evil" part is up for debate. Miko almost stopped at Durkons words, but then decended closer into a blinded, raging lunatic. You do know that some people still don't think Belkar would be evil in real life, right? People can be very stubborn and unreasonable.

An evil act isn't necessary to get revoked from paladin powers. She was about to do an unlawfull act. Killing the prisoner when he is down is unlawfull.
quad erat demonstrandum
No, she needs to either stop being LG(requiring more than one chaotic act), commit an evil act, or GROSSLY violate her paladin code.

nagora

2006-02-23, 03:51 PM

You missed a typo :)
Seriously, that was a lawful neutral position if I have ever read one with his society come before individuals and the rights of many.
A paladin at the very least would sacrfice only 499 persons because the 500th would be himself.

I think its fair to assume that the Paladin would sacrifice himself if that would help, yes. Same for the CG fighter.

The point of what I was saying is that in that situation, the difference between the two sides is due to the difference between law and chaos not good and evil, so naturally the Paladin's response is similar to that of the LN fighter. But, I would suggest that the LN fighter would not find the choice anything like as agonising as the Paladin.

Crazy_Uncle_Doug

2006-02-23, 03:51 PM

An evil act isn't necessary to get revoked from paladin powers. She was about to do an unlawfull act. Killing the prisoner when he is down is unlawfull.
quad erat demonstrandum

Which is what I said. Hooray! I'm helping!

The_Weirdo

2006-02-23, 03:53 PM

The "Evil" part is up for debate. Miko almost stopped at Durkons words, but then decended closer into a blinded, raging lunatic. You do know that some people still don't think Belkar would be evil in real life, right? People can be very stubborn and unreasonable.
No, she needs to either stop being LG(requiring more than one chaotic act), commit an evil act, or GROSSLY violate her paladin code.

You see, I KNOW Belkar is evil, and I don't see how people can claim otherwise, but this scene with Miko? Most of her staunchiest defenders disagree with what she did. I mean, come on. Miko was LG how in that scene?

estradling

2006-02-23, 03:58 PM

You see, I KNOW Belkar is evil, and I don't see how people can claim otherwise, but this scene with Miko? Most of her staunchiest defenders disagree with what she did. I mean, come on. Miko was LG how in that scene?

Because the Giant says so. Paladin must be Lawful Good. Miko is still a Paladin. Therefore Miko must be Lawful Good.

Unless of course you truely do think you know better then the Giant what happens in the OOTS-verse :)

The_Weirdo

2006-02-23, 04:00 PM

Because the Giant says so. Paladin must be Lawful Good. Miko is still a Paladin. Therefore Miko must be Lawful Good.

Unless of course you truely do think you know better then the Giant what happens in the OOTS-verse :)

I never said she fell, I said she's about to. The Giant said, and I quote, "she's bordering on a complete psychotic break". I don't know about you, but I find not being psychotic a fairly important asset to a Paladin.

garylian

2006-02-23, 04:01 PM

Yeah, ok. So I admit that the order was doing the right thing to defend Belkar from Miko here. However, this raises in my mind a problem: Belkar has done a lot of evil things in plain sight of Roy. Roy may be loyal to him for being a comrade in arms, but is that worth the lives of innocents? Belkar, if he continues to live, will continue to murder. Roy knows this, but lets it slide because Belkar never betrayed them? Not that the party should kill Belkar, but they shouldn't let these things go either. They should take some action to try to prevent him from killing innocents, and not simply by keeping him in their party, which doesn't keep him from his hobby. Now, this is D&D and townsfolk probably don't matter at all to the players, but I don't know if letting a CE psychopath continue to murder wouldn't result in an alignment change. However, you have Calvin in your avatar, so all of your arguments automatically trump all ;).

The way it works that that military and para-military orginizations like to police their own. Look at how often the military will want to refuse to let one of their own go to a civilian trial.

Also, think on this: You state that Roy *knows* that Belkar will continue to murder if he is allowed to live. Roy doesn't know that. It is a possibility, but he can't know that for a fact.

As many have pointed out, Belkar is decidedly CE, but he has also shown a penchant for being controllable when Roy is holding his leash. Also, Belkar likes to *enjoy* himself. He's a narcacistic little bugger. It's all about his fun, and enjoying tweaking the nose of others. Sometimes those tweaks are nasty, and fall into the realm of evil. Others are pure comic genius.

Bascially, V and the rest of OotS are saying "Sure, he may be a homicidal little maniac, but he's OUR homicidal maniac, and we will be the ones that decide how to deal with him, and not you."

And that's the exact way the military/para-military orginizations like to deal with it.

Grey Watcher

2006-02-23, 04:09 PM

You know, Haley isn't necessarily saying "bitch." THere's no evidence that "l" doesn't stand for "w". ;D

theKOT

2006-02-23, 04:20 PM

The way it works that that military and para-military orginizations like to police their own. Look at how often the military will want to refuse to let one of their own go to a civilian trial.

Also, think on this: You state that Roy *knows* that Belkar will continue to murder if he is allowed to live. Roy doesn't know that. It is a possibility, but he can't know that for a fact.

As many have pointed out, Belkar is decidedly CE, but he has also shown a penchant for being controllable when Roy is holding his leash. Also, Belkar likes to *enjoy* himself. He's a narcacistic little bugger. It's all about his fun, and enjoying tweaking the nose of others. Sometimes those tweaks are nasty, and fall into the realm of evil. Others are pure comic genius.

Bascially, V and the rest of OotS are saying "Sure, he may be a homicidal little maniac, but he's OUR homicidal maniac, and we will be the ones that decide how to deal with him, and not you."

And that's the exact way the military/para-military orginizations like to deal with it.
But they DON'T police him. All they do is keep him from breaking into full sadistic rage. I'm saying the OOTS had better deal with him or the consequences are going to be bad. But they never dealt with it before, and my quotes from Roy shows that he doesn't really care. If protecting the weak is what he wants to do, why won't he protect them from Belkar? He never takes him aside and explains that his actions are unacceptable, accept in the case of Elan, where there was no way to let it slide without someone being killed/seriously injured right in front of him. Roy lets Belkar wander freely around town with no supervision, and pretty much ignores what he does around the party.

You know, Haley isn't necessarily saying "bitch." THere's no evidence that "l" doesn't stand for "w". ;D
Genius!

estradling

2006-02-23, 04:21 PM

I never said she fell, I said she's about to. The Giant said, and I quote, "she's bordering on a complete psychotic break". I don't know about you, but I find not being psychotic a fairly important asset to a Paladin.

No you didn't... You said...

Miko was LG how in that scene?

The moment she stops being LG she falls... Per the rules.

She can come ever so close to a shift to something not LG. She can perform Chaotic and Neutral acts all she wants and it doesn't matter until the Giant feels that it is enough to change the alignment. Until then she is Lawful Good

Sebastian

2006-02-23, 04:24 PM

.
No, she needs to either stop being LG(requiring more than one chaotic act), commit an evil act, or GROSSLY violate her paladin code.
Just to be clear, are you saying that no single chatic act would be enough to shift her alignemt?

and I think that attacking the OotS now would count as violating her paladin code of conduct.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 04:38 PM

Just to be clear, are you saying that no single chatic act would be enough to shift her alignemt?

and I think that attacking the OotS now would count as violating her paladin code of conduct.
No, I was simply saying that a single chaotic act is not an automatic fall. How was attacking the OOTS grossly violating her personal code of conduct?

unlit.candle

2006-02-23, 04:41 PM

Thought that was a great comic, excellent work.

This whole paladin code debate is getting old. We all have to accept that the difference between good and evil is not black and white.
There are numerous levels to the alignment build WoTC has created. One chaotic act does not make you Chaotic.

Closing statement: Relax!! Paladins have a stick up there not a tree.

PhoeKun

2006-02-23, 04:42 PM

But they DON'T police him. All they do is keep him from breaking into full sadistic rage. I'm saying the OOTS had better deal with him or the consequences are going to be bad. But they never dealt with it before, and my quotes from Roy shows that he doesn't really care. If protecting the weak is what he wants to do, why won't he protect them from Belkar? He never takes him aside and explains that his actions are unacceptable, accept in the case of Elan, where there was no way to let it slide without someone being killed/seriously injured right in front of him. Roy lets Belkar wander freely around town with no supervision, and pretty much ignores what he does around the party.

I feel its worth noting that you are saying pretty much the same thing as Miko. That being "the things you're doing with that little psycopath are wrong, and there's going to be big trouble if you don't knock it off."

Only, you're not talking to anyone in particular, and you're not expressing the hope that you will be the one who gets to lay the karmic smackdown on their collective behinds.

There's a world of difference in how its being said, but the similarities in the basic argument are eerily similar, don't you think? :D

estradling

2006-02-23, 04:51 PM

There's a world of difference in how its being said, but the similarities in the basic argument are eerily similar, don't you think? :D

I find it to be a pretty typical warning against trying to use something 'evil' to do something 'good.' Evil has a way of twisting things. No matter how much good the (Evil artifact, Belkar, politicians) you might get them to do... You better watch out that you don't get screwed over, or cause something worse

Espher

2006-02-23, 04:51 PM

While I think you are correct, use some punctuation in that marathon sentence! We grammar/punctuation nazis thank you in advance! lol

Any punctuation there would have been unneccessary, so I didn't feel like adding it in.

Besides, a run-on sentence every now and then is great. ;)

Even the Giant said she's on the verge of a breakdown. She attacked UNLAWFULLY the OOTS for preventing her from commiting an UNLAWFUL, EVIL act.

Considering she was not aware that the trial had ended, I wouldn't say it was an unlawful attack. It's more in line with her first two attempts to subdue them. I also argue the validity of striking Belkar down as being evil, albeit it may be chaotic.

Durkan said "let there be no more bloodshed". This can't be perceived as evil, no matter how much one's mind twists it.

Of course not.

Her BOSS told her to stop.

And she did at that point.

Would you support her for attacking him as well?

Of course not. She would have no reason or right to. At the time, she was well within her rights to perceive the party as a threat. The only questionable thing in my opinion would be her forboding speech at the end, and even then only because of her apparent bloodlust.

For crying out loud, what will Miko have to do to become evil in your eyes? Take over the world and make it into a replica of the 1984 world??

No, simply commit a sequence of evil acts of sufficient quantity or magnitude to merit a full alignment shift (i.e. more than 'maybe' one).

I'm not necessarily "pro-Miko", I just don't think she's done anything to merit a loss of paladinhood or an alignment shift.

and I think that attacking the OotS now would count as violating her paladin code of conduct.

How, pray tell, would engaging the supporters of a known evil character in a combat when one has not yet been made aware that they are not guilty of their crime and has excellent reasons to suspect there may be an attempt at deception or further betrayal (they've already betrayed her trust before), a violation of her paladin code of conduct?

Unless your paladin is Lawful Stupid. In which case it could be.

Whatever, flavour to taste.

I'm off to a game to play my foppish swashbuckler and commit a plethora of chaotic acts. Toodles.

KuH

2006-02-23, 05:01 PM

Congratulations are definitely due to the Giant for this strip. There were 12 pages of comments within eight hours of posting ... more than 28 pages by now!!

I don't know if it was mentioned elsewhere - but it was brilliant to take advantage of Haley talking in code to call Miko a *itch.

All the speculating about Miko, about her boss, about Belkar ... all this says a committed readership to come. Great!!!!!

Steward

2006-02-23, 05:04 PM

I think Miko is losing it.

aaronbourque

2006-02-23, 05:11 PM

For the record, by the way, Miko's final speech is not swearing revenge; it's more like promising that karma will come back and punish them, and hoping she gets to be there. As in, "I hope you all get found guilty of something and I get to be the one to execute you," not, "I'm going to kill you no matter what happens."
An important thing to consider. Miko does not say "And one day, you'll turn around, and there I'll be ready to smoke you down so hard for your EVIL and DISHONORABLENESS that the WORLD WILL SHAKE!!!"

She says: "You think you're doing a good thing, but I know good things, and one day, the world will show you YOU ARE NOT GOOD THINGS. I just hope I'm there to see the look on your faces . . . and maybe twist the knife. That'd be cool."

If you're playing a paladin and there's no third option
The whole point of Good--truly heroic heroes--is that there's always another option. Heroic heroes are heroic heroes because they don't let anyone tell them they can't do the right thing.

Remember people the Inquisition was 'morally' on the Good side
No, they weren't. They were Lawful, not Good. Torturing people into a forced confession is not Good.

I'm curious, would you mind explaining where is her moral victory?

For I am a paladin . . . whether YOU like it or not.
Basically, she's telling everyone that she is in the right.

She may be wrong, but for her, she has the last word. Then she goes off and has the even laster word, and creeps off into self-delusion.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-02-23, 05:19 PM

Congratulations to everyone who drew the conclusion that a paladin making an intimidating speech and a threat of religious redemption delivered by her hand towards an exceptionally evil character and a band of suspect and rebellious individuals who have already betrayed her confidence once constitutes a fall from grace.

I now bestow upon you the "Supporters of the Paladins are Carebears Theory" award.

Rebellion is Godly.

The fault is not the Order refusing to kowtow to this stranger from the south, the fault is Miko's for thinking to place her will above theirs.

And I am speaking of the initial events. I'm honestly not sure what to think of the Order's actions now. Belkar is evil, and murderous, and there's really no more need for satisfaction against that smarmy, superiority complex having "paladin."* But then...who knows.

* Do not construe this as being Anti-Miko. My view is "Miko is a nazi but I love her anyway." Heck, my board persona (avatar, sig) was inspired somewhat from her.

Marller

2006-02-23, 05:27 PM

The whole point of Good--truly heroic heroes--is that there's always another option. Heroic heroes are heroic heroes because they don't let anyone tell them they can't do the right thing.
That reminds me of something i heard somewhere:
The heroes are about to jump in a vortex.
Bystander: "Are you nuts, you won't be able to return, ever!"
One of the heroes: "You asked for heroes, you never said anything about sanity."
Jumps in.

Solara

2006-02-23, 05:30 PM

Good grief, nearly 30 pages already? Though after having just read through them all it seems like a good percentage of the posts are the usual endless bickering about D&D morality. ::)

I don't think I've ever anticipated any comic quite as much as this one, so the wait was driving me a little nuts, but the result was more than worth it. Fantastic comic! The best since, um...Monday's, which was the best since Friday's. :D And I think I'm starting to get a little spoiled on all the double-sized goodness we've been getting lately.

Two questions/comments:

1.) Was Miko aware that the Order, (presumably Belkar included) had just been found not-guilty? I didn't see any sign of it, and after the venom in that parting speech I wonder what her reaction will be when she finds out.

2.) Just like everyone else I wonder about Belkar's motives...I mean, wanting to make Miko fall is one thing, but as I generally associate CE with selfishness taken to an extreme I can't see him sacrificing himself to do so.

However, one thing I haven't seen brought up yet is the fact that Belkar might have been fully aware of the fact that he could be ressurected. If he was unlawfully killed by one of Shojo's servants it would make sense that Shojo would get a different servant to make it all better again, even if it was only so he could stand trial.

All in all a very satisfying comic after all the recent tension, though of course the Giant is a big meanie and I won't be able to relax until I see the results of the whole killing the guard thing. I wonder if it will now be taken into account that he was escaping an unfair imprisonment for a crime it's now been proven he's innocent of.

Because really, in a fantasy setting, can any adventurer be reasonably expected to not attempt a prison break, and so what if they kill a few expendable and cookie-cutter guard NPCs on their way out?

Heck, even Miko didn't know the victim as anything other than a nameless guard, and the whole "in cold blood" thing doesn't fly when you consider the fact that the "helpless victim" was wearing armor and packing a sword, while the person who killed him was injured, weaponless, and locked in a dark hole in the ground under the victim's power.

No, they weren't. They were Lawful, not Good. Torturing people into a forced confession is not Good.

Well I'm glad someone brought that up. I was going to respond to the original post myself, but it was pages ago and I forgot. The idea that someone could consider any sort of torture "Good" is kind of scary. The people behind the Inquisition were undeniably LE, they just used a LG front (the Church...because we all know how in the bible Jesus runs around torturing and killing people to make them believe in him... ::) ) to perpetrate their evil so that no one would be able to question them without looking anti-Church themselves and thus opening themselves up for persecution.

Vampire_Boy

2006-02-23, 05:31 PM

Basically, she's telling everyone that she is in the right.

She may be wrong, but for her, she has the last word. Then she goes off and has the even laster word, and creeps off into self-delusion.

She doesn't seem happy though and does not seem to like at all Shojo stopping her (even though she does obey) - do you think she really feels as if she has gained victory here? I rather formed the opinion that when she stomps off angrily at the end of the strip, her whole being exudes the opinion that 'justice has not been done here today'. Which she would perceive as a defeat.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 05:36 PM

I feel its worth noting that you are saying pretty much the same thing as Miko. That being "the things you're doing with that little psycopath are wrong, and there's going to be big trouble if you don't knock it off."

Only, you're not talking to anyone in particular, and you're not expressing the hope that you will be the one who gets to lay the karmic smackdown on their collective behinds.

There's a world of difference in how its being said, but the similarities in the basic argument are eerily similar, don't you think? :D
One of the first things that drew me to liking Miko was that I could see myself in her somewhat. I'm not a on the verge of a mental breakdown and I don't have the same set of beliefs, so my arguement is not "you will suffer" my arguement is "others will suffer, and you had better do your best to prevent that!" I don't think the OOTS will get retribution for defending Belkar in this situation, but I do think that the world in general will be worse off if Belkar is not dealt with somehow. See, she thinks their actions will hurt them, but I think that it will hurt others. But yeah, basically similar, the two warnings.

Euphemism

2006-02-23, 05:40 PM

The whole point of Good--truly heroic heroes--is that there's always another option. Heroic heroes are heroic heroes because they don't let anyone tell them they can't do the right thing.

I run a game a little darker than yours, it seems. Ravenloft versus Mystara. Lesser of two Evils is sometimes the only path to Good.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 05:45 PM

Heck, even Miko didn't know the victim as anything other than a nameless guard, and the whole "in cold blood" thing doesn't fly when you consider the fact that the "helpless victim" was wearing armor and packing a sword, while the person who killed him was injured, weaponless, and locked in a dark hole in the ground under the victim's power.

Somewhat true, but the victim was already disarmed and sprawled on the ground. Also, you can kill a guard and attempt escape, but it is still reasonable to be punished for that.

KaosDevice

2006-02-23, 05:48 PM

2.) Just like everyone else I wonder about Belkar's motives...I mean, wanting to make Miko fall is one thing, but as I generally associate CE with selfishness taken to an extreme I can't see him sacrificing himself to do so.

Is Belkar really CE? I always got more of a NE vibe off him. I.E. self-interested to the point of not caring about anyone else unless he has to to further his own goals.

Ryshan Ynrith

2006-02-23, 05:50 PM

Because really, in a fantasy setting, can any adventurer be reasonably expected to not attempt a prison break, and so what if they kill a few expendable and cookie-cutter guard NPCs on their way out?

Interesting. So people doing their duty to their liege are acceptable targets for adventurers? I guess cookie-cutter commoners are fine too, since they aren't named or terribly unique. Heck, why should adventures be expected to show any sort of mercy or respect to anyone but plot-vital NPCs?

This sort of attitude is distressingly common.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-02-23, 05:54 PM

Interesting. So people doing their duty to their liege are acceptable targets for adventurers? I guess cookie-cutter commoners are fine too, since they aren't named or terribly unique. Heck, why should adventures be expected to show any sort of mercy or respect to anyone but plot-vital NPCs?

This sort of attitude is distressingly common.

If "doing their duty to their liege" is being used as an excuse for menacing or coercion, then yes, they should expect no mercy. As far as I'm concerned, I'm accountable to God alone, and society seems to be more an excuse for people to exalt themselves above their fellow humans.

I'm sure I can expect some rather "vocal" disagreement with this, to put it mildly, but I invite it nonetheless. It will do nothing but prove me right.

Taren

2006-02-23, 05:56 PM

Congradulations Giant.

This is a brilliant end to what I've started to refer to as "The Miko Saga", or, to clairify, the OOTS's forced trip to stand on trial, which involved Miko every step of the way. We've seen the character change, albeit for the worse, and overall, IMHO you've displayed that the antagonists for a group of do-gooders don't always have to be evil.

I don't like Miko anymore. I initially had hopes that she'd become another member of the Order of the Stick, since I like paladins very much, and because I thought she'd be a great character to demonstrate the dynamic nature of characters, since she had initially evoked such negative reactions from nearly everyone in the party. (Even Roy, after he started thinking clearly.) That being said, I think I'm more impressed with how you've developed her character now than I would ever have been if she had started go grow, for lack of a better term, more "humane". Miko has caused nothing but trouble for the group, even if it was necessary trouble, and it's nice to see that even though she's still technically LG, (even attacking and almost killing Belkar isn't really breaching the barrier, since she DIDN'T kill him, regardless of WHY she didn't, and also since she could probably justify it as vengence for killing an innocent person (the guard).) she's unrepentant in the actions she took and ultimately still believes that she's right and the OOTS is wrong.

That being said, for the past few comics, I've been very annoyed at Belkar. Not that he isn't "in character" because he is, very much so, but because I think his antagonizing Miko is only making things worse. Do I think he SHOULDN'T have done what he did? No, heck no. He's quite the CE alignment, what he did was perfectly appropro. His behavior is hilarious, but I do NOT like Belkar, and I could EASILY see him betray the rest of the group sometime in the future. Heck, I could easily see him getting angry at the rest of the group for interfering with his attempt to "corrupt" Miko.

I no longer hope Miko becomes a member of the OOTS, both because I don't think she ever will, and also because I'm thoroughly convinced that she's a horrible, horrible paladin, albeit a paladin, none the less. I hope Miko someday returns to again agonize the OOTS, truth be told. Maybe we can see some positive change in her then, or maybe not. As for Belkar, I don't like him either, although he IS hilarious. I hope he dies from his own violent ways, or at least alone, but not before he gets more hilarious lines and behavior. Despite my loathing of him, I will admit his "playing" with Miko was perfect in its rendition.

Long story short: You're a horrible, wonderful, amazing writer for this comic, Giant, and here's to 285 more comics, for no apparent reason.

Solara

2006-02-23, 05:56 PM

Somewhat true, but the victim was already disarmed and sprawled on the ground.

Yeah, but does she know that?

"Cold-blooded murder" is just not the first thing that would usually spring to mind when the odds are clearly stacked so highly against the killer in the first place.

Deuce

2006-02-23, 05:56 PM

Is Belkar really CE? I always got more of a NE vibe off him. I.E. self-interested to the point of not caring about anyone else unless he has to to further his own goals.

Nah, he's stated that he's chaotic in the strip. I will go with the idea that chaotic is far more important to him then outright evil. He'd think it was funny that someone might mistake him for Good, he'd be offended if someone thought he was Lawful.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 05:57 PM

Is Belkar really CE? I always got more of a NE vibe off him. I.E. self-interested to the point of not caring about anyone else unless he has to to further his own goals.

Gaah! make it stop! (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=230)
Now! (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1133438285 ;start=3#3)

Yeah, but does she know that?

"Cold-blooded murder" is just not the first thing that would usually spring to mind when the odds are clearly stacked so highly against the killer in the first place.
Maybe not, but I'm sure what she knows about Belkar and what he did with the corpse make her think so. To an extent you are right, but Miko doesn't have a history of double-checking facts before smiting anyway.

If "doing their duty to their liege" is being used as an excuse for menacing or coercion, then yes, they should expect no mercy. As far as I'm concerned, I'm accountable to God alone, and society seems to be more an excuse for people to exalt themselves above their fellow humans.

I'm sure I can expect some rather "vocal" disagreement with this, to put it mildly, but I invite it nonetheless. It will do nothing but prove me right.
Anarchist much? To keep this relevant to the strip: how does this apply to the current situation? NO mercy? That sounds like a fanatical viewpoint....

nagora

2006-02-23, 06:00 PM

One of the first things that drew me to liking Miko was that I could see myself in her somewhat. I'm not on the verge of a mental breakdown.

You realise that's just a layman's opinion? :)

Solara

2006-02-23, 06:01 PM

Interesting. So people doing their duty to their liege are acceptable targets for adventurers? I guess cookie-cutter commoners are fine too, since they aren't named or terribly unique.

If "doing their duty to their liege" includes attacking a party and dragging them by force to stand trial for a crime they know nothing about, then yes.

Similarly, if a group of cookie-cutter commoners managed to take away an adventurer's weapons and were keeping them trapped in a pit, then yes on that count too.

Evik

2006-02-23, 06:02 PM

You can really tell Miko is having some major internal conflicts...and...she doesent even know that the OOTS has been found not guilty yet.
I cant wait to see what happens with Belkar's trial...
I think Miko is really close to snapping.
Plus I cant wait to see what Haley has to say about the last trial and what she has figured out...

theKOT

2006-02-23, 06:09 PM

If "doing their duty to their liege" includes attacking a party and dragging them by force to stand trial for a crime they know nothing about, then yes.

Similarly, if a group of cookie-cutter commoners managed to take away an adventurer's weapons and were keeping them trapped in a pit, then yes on that count too.

How does knowing about a crime affect what penalties might be carried out and what lengths might be taken to enact them? Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

You realise that's just a layman's opinion? :)
Yeah, but.... I'm right anyway! There! That was easy! ;)

mbuna

2006-02-23, 06:10 PM

I now bestow upon you the "Supporters of the Paladins are Carebears Theory" award.

Hey! Some Carebears are pretty vicious!
http://www.mbuna.net/CoH/NewCareBears/screenshot_2005-02-07-20-18-03.jpg

Solara

2006-02-23, 06:13 PM

How does knowing about a crime affect what penalties might be carried out and what lengths might be taken to enact them? Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

You're right. In that case let me change the first point to attacking the party, period. Traditionally adventurers are there to adventure, travel around the world doing good deeds, etc. 99% of the time they're not going to put up with any interferance with that, unless they get caught up in a railroad plot and have no choice.

Haroth_Lawbane

2006-02-23, 06:20 PM

Miko will never be a part of the Order. Never! Think of the experience they will loose. ;D

Grey Watcher

2006-02-23, 06:22 PM

Holy_Knight

2006-02-23, 06:24 PM

1. - we'll just agree to disagree on this one.
2. When you have two options, and no more, what do you choose?
2b. The disease was due to an artifact, and ignored the rules of standard curing and immunity.
2c. Not all liches are evil. According to the original description of a lich, "some are just souls so devoted to their research, they do not notice when their bodies pass on." Just because the current spells in the spellbooks are listed as evil does not mean research cannot be conducted for a neutral version of the rite.
3. Aren't all arguments rhetorical, including your own in this very response?
4. Again, two choices.

Anyhoo, the point is moot. The sessions are over, and all players involved apparently agreed with or could accept the logic, as they returned to the table again and again.

1. Actually, I won't agree to disagree, though I will agree to stop debating it right now. (Yes, there is a difference, and I oppose "agreeing to disagree" in general out of principle.)

2, and 4. But there was a third choice--neither torching the village, nor just allowing the plague to spread as it may, but trying to stop it while saving the villagers.

2b. Be that as it may, a quarantine could still have been attempted, and an attempt could have been made to research a possible cure.

2c. As I mentioned before, according to the rulebooks all Liches are evil, which was what I was going by, and I still stick to my statement that paladins are naturally opposed to undeath. Now you're right, there may be variant rules or house rules that say a lich might not be evil--but if so, why was the party so intent on stopping the process? If the paladin's liege was going to become a good lich, for a good purpose, it's unclear why the party was so opposed to it happening.

(The munchkins want to know: Is he a good lich, or a bad lich? :P)

3. No, and what I actually said was "rhetorical question". Rhetorical questions are supposed to be such as to require no answer because the answer is already known--but whenused in debates, that answer almost never really is obvious. Rather, they tend to unjustifiably assume things and ignore important distinctions, or else be too vague to be meaningful. For example:

When you asked: "Do you sacrifice a hundred thousand people, or kill 500?" you were intimating that it was obvious both that there was no other possible choice, and that between them the only possible answer is to kill 500, neither of which are necessarily true, let alone obvious.

Then: "Do you surrender a world to looming darkness, or do you ensure the light will continue to shine?" This is unhelpful, because it is completely devoid of details. Agreeing that one should ensure that light shines instead of surrendering the world to darkness in no way commits someone to agreeing to your position about what would constitute doing either.

4. See #2 above.

Imo, this is not about Evil vs. Good, it's about being Lawful, which is even "more" a Paladin requirement than being Good is.

I couldn't disagree more. Paladins are meant to be paragons of virtue, which in my mind means they're dedicated to Good above all, and then law as a distant second. On that note, I think Lawfulness should be thought of more as "valuing order" than as valuing laws per se.

If there is no third way to be found except escape, then every individual must decide whether to go or not. I would go and take as many with me as possible but I would not murder 500 innocents even if it were to save the universe. Better to die Good than to live through evil."

Okay. Now lets ask a Paladin: etc. *snip*

See, what you said above is exactly what I think a paladin would say. Paladins are the last people who should be utlitarians.

Starbuck_II

2006-02-23, 06:25 PM

The obvious question in this thread:

Why is Belkar urging Miko to attack him?

There are only a few answers posted so far (and all common theories, so no spolier), and all of them are a bit of a stretch!

1) Belkar is actually not evil and wants the satisfaction of Miko smiting him and realizing he isn't evil.

2) Belkar is antagonizing Miko until the end.

3) Belkar is attempting to get Miko to turn to evil by killing him.

The above 3 have major holes. Belkar is pretty clearly evil, he is whispering his lines (not much of a taunt!), and why would one imagine killing a murderer would make a person evil? No, Belkar's motives fall into another category, I would imagine... but what?

I won't post any spolier guesses, but I think the answer will be very interesting when it is uncovered :) Once again, Good job Sr. Giganto!

UPDATE: You know, I have to disagree with myself after thinking a moment. #) above is plausible, as Belkar is a helpless victim in the strip, and he has clearly been detained (no escape from that room, I' imagine). Striking him down in that situation could/should be considered evil. On first reading the comic, I didn't consider he was incapacitated- but if you imagine he was no longer a threat- it makes some sense.

#1 and #3. While he was still evil. It is like killing a orc baby. Oh the orc baby is evil, but innocent.
Killing innocents is evil. Thus, killing Belkar when he is defenseless and should be tried in court is wrong.

She is both killing an innocent (since he is supposed to be lead to trial according to Shinjo) and reobeying his order when she tried to kill him.

Now, in the past, he hasn't been innocent: we all know he has done bad, but at that moment he is.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 06:25 PM

You're right. In that case let me change the first point to attacking the party, period. Traditionally adventurers are there to adventure, travel around the world doing good deeds, etc. 99% of the time they're not going to put up with any interferance with that, unless they get caught up in a railroad plot and have no choice.
K. That's valid. See, I have no problem with that idea, I simply disagreed that you could claim that you didn't know you were doing something wrong and then get treated differently.

Kish

2006-02-23, 06:27 PM

99% of the time they're not going to put up with any interferance with that,
...Uh.

You may or may not be right. If you are right, then it just means 99% of all the D&D players out there aren't playing terribly good people. Sorry, I don't care who you think you are, you're not above the law and anyone who kills people for getting in his/her way is evil--in real-world terms, if you consider them meaningfully different from D&D alignment terms.

To sidestep into a bit of rules overanalysis, I just realized that this strip proves Vaarsuvius is at least 11th level. His Scorching Ray can fire three distinct rays. Of course, there's nothing to say V is ONLY 11th level, but, still, it's an interesting fact. :-)
Remember Disintegrate. :P Already proven.

KaosDevice

2006-02-23, 06:31 PM

Gaah! make it stop! (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=230)
Now! (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1133438285 ;start=3#3)

You're right, I missed that one outright statement in 285 pages of comics. You got me. I wasn't arguing that he wasn't evil, just that it seems like most of the time he seems more self centered (NE) then randomly violent (CE) to me most of the time.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-02-23, 06:34 PM

Anarchist much? To keep this relevant to the strip: how does this apply to the current situation? NO mercy? That sounds like a fanatical viewpoint....

Anarchist? More like I acknowledge that the concept of society as it is practiced is the lesser of two evils. And that a lesser evil is still evil nonetheless.

Nonetheless, it seems that you are reading "no mercy" in the worst possible way. I don't mean no mercy as in "You would cross me?! I will personally send you to HELL! DIE DIE DIE!" it is more like "I don't care who you say you're serving, I will not yield to you, and I will defend myself by any means neccesary."

theKOT

2006-02-23, 06:43 PM

Nonetheless, it seems that you are reading "no mercy" in the worst possible way. I don't mean no mercy as in "You would cross me?! I will personally send you to HELL! DIE DIE DIE!" it is more like "I don't care who you say you're serving, I will not yield to you, and I will defend myself by any means neccesary."
See, mercy means, accodring to dictionary.com "Mercy is compassionate forbearance: “We hand folks over to God's mercy, and show none ourselves” (George Eliot)." So "no mercy" would imply no compassion, see? I misread you, but you miswrote.

But yeah, I mostly agree with the rest of your statements.

You're right, I missed that one outright statement in 285 pages of comics. You got me. I wasn't arguing that he wasn't evil, just that it seems like most of the time he seems more self centered (NE) then randomly violent (CE) to me most of the time.

I gets very annoying when people continuously ask: "Do we know for sure?" Belkar is plenty random.

Drakkip

2006-02-23, 06:45 PM

He could have been at 0 hps, disabled and yet not unconscious, there are no rule that say you can't stand up at 0 hps.

IIRC standing up requires a full move action, and at 0 hits you can only take a 5 foot step, anything more than that is considered strenious and causes you to fall unconcious.

WeaponMasterLDO

2006-02-23, 06:46 PM

Great comic. Elan is so great at those closing lines.

mbuna

2006-02-23, 06:51 PM

IIRC standing up requires a full move action, and at 0 hits you can only take a 5 foot step, anything more than that is considered strenious and causes you to fall unconcious.

You can take a full move action at 0HP without injuring yourself.

nagora

2006-02-23, 07:21 PM

See, what you said above is exactly what I think a paladin would say. Paladins are the last people who should be utlitarians.

You do know that you quoted the CG part of my post, not the LG/paladin part?

xrestassuredx

2006-02-23, 07:24 PM

To sidestep into a bit of rules overanalysis, I just realized that this strip proves Vaarsuvius is at least 11th level. His Scorching Ray can fire three distinct rays. Of course, there's nothing to say V is ONLY 11th level, but, still, it's an interesting fact. :-)
I did, in fact, mention that already in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1140671714 ;start=345#355), although with so much being said things are easy to overlook.

.. Anyway, is there a current thread where people have analyzed the PC stats from things, like this, that we've learned from the strip? I know the Giant has stated he won't limit himself to specific character build sheets so he can keep freedom in the strip, but there's nothing to say a bunch of bored geeks can't attempt it anyway. Is there anything like that already?

CarpeAmentum

2006-02-23, 07:26 PM

Greatclub discussion (From the SRD):
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

There are reasons that clubs dont cost money. They dont cost money because you have to make your own.

Disintigrate:
I think it was mentioned at least twice that people think that V should have used Disintigrate.
Disintigrate is a 6th level spell, with a Fortitude save to reduce the damage to 5d6.
Minimum level to cast Disintigrate is 11, so a chance for 22d6 damage. On average that is 77 damage. That is only if a PALADIN fails her save, probably around DC 22. The paladin's save has to be about +13 minimum... + feats or items ... a better than 50% chance to make it.
whereas we can look at 2 possibilities to cast scorching ray.
1) only use up a 2nd level spell for 12d6 average 42 damage
OR
2) use metamagic to make it a 6th level spell... on par with disintigrate.
empowered empowered scorching ray = 12d6 X 2 = 84 damage average, with NO SAVING THROW allowed to miko, who has great saves...all paladins do

Either way, disintigrate is a poor choice

aaronbourque

2006-02-23, 07:57 PM

The whole point of Good--truly heroic heroes--is that there's always another option. Heroic heroes are heroic heroes because they don't let anyone tell them they can't do the right thing.

I run a game a little darker than yours, it seems. Ravenloft versus Mystara. Lesser of two Evils is sometimes the only path to Good.
Well, Ravenloft isn't heroic anything. It's a horror genre.

edit:w00t, !st p05t on a p4g3!

Yuck.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Zantetsuken_Kokoro

2006-02-23, 08:20 PM

Only Evil would deny the total triumph of Good.

Kish

2006-02-23, 08:29 PM

Disintigrate:
I think it was mentioned at least twice that people think that V should have used Disintigrate.

<snip mechanical reasons to favor Scorching Ray over Disintegrate>

Not to take away from any of your points, but I think, also, Vaarsuvius thinks (probably correctly) that Lord Shojo would probably have a more negative reaction if s/he used a spell that appeared to be intended to kill Miko and make her harder to resurrect, instead of just to incapacitate her.

Hyrael

2006-02-23, 09:00 PM

It is like killing a orc baby. Oh the orc baby is evil, but innocent..
Babys cant be evil. Orcs are evil not because they are orcs, but they grow up in orc culture, among other orcs. only creatures that are related to extraplanar sources of evil are geneticaly predisposed to evil, regardless of their upbringing (tieflings). other evil creatures have no childhood period (mind flayers) or have racial memories that dictate thier personalities, making them mini carbon copies of the parent(aboleths). raise a dwarf (lawful good) in an orc camp, and you have a chaotic evil dwarf. raise a Drow in a surfave elf villaige, and they wind up exactly the same as the other kids, except for the skin, more smarts and charm, spell like abilities, spell resistance, and a habit of wearing sunglasses. though they might be a bit traumatised from descrimination, but they WONT BE AUTOMATICALY EVIL.

do you kill an orc baby? no. you find a accepting human couple, or,even better, a half orc to raise the kid. Killing is the easy way out.

thats why I like eberron. you are as likey to find an evil brass dragon as a good red dragon (though the brass will still be talkative, and the red will still be arrogant and greedy).

nagora

2006-02-23, 09:17 PM

Babys cant be evil. Orcs are evil not because they are orcs, but they grow up in orc culture, among other orcs.

Unless in your gameworld the god of Orcs made them evil by nature (which is what Tolkien did, for example), which is a reasonable way of playing them. This "nurture beats nature" argument is barely settled in the real world, it has no sensible grounds for being adopted in a fantasy background. The DM can choose to have it either way.

only creatures that are related to extraplanar sources of evil are geneticaly predisposed to evil

If you have genetics on your world then maybe, but again you are applying rules from our world on what is supposed to be a fantasy.

thats why I like eberron. you are as likey to find an evil brass dragon as a good red dragon (though the brass will still be talkative, and the red will still be arrogant and greedy).

That seems very dull to me. It's like saying all races are basically humans in funny costumes. Evil just needs a bit of therapy. Where's the flavour in that? Some died-in-the-wool evil races really pick up a game, IMO. Although I'd certainly not go so far as to have ALL non-humans fixed in their alignment.

I once created a couple of NPCs: an albino Gnoll and a Kobold, who were basically a knock off of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. I had all sorts of plans for them but, of course, when the PCs met them they just attacked because they assumed that Gnolls and Kobolds were evil.

After that I made sure that I had established which races were fixed alignment and which were not. The best (ie, most fun) fixed-alignment races are the powerful ones like Mind Flayers and Dragons, but orcs and goblins are good too as they have the mass to make a challenging opponent even if they are weak on a one-to-one scale.

Anyway, as Yoda might say: "There is no 'do' or 'can't do', there is only 'ask the DM'"

Kish

2006-02-23, 09:25 PM

Unless in your gameworld the god of Orcs made them evil by nature (which is what Tolkien did, for example),

Actually, Tolkien had tremendous (religion-based) issues with the idea of "evil by nature." His orcs were corrupted elves and, as such, good by nature to whatever extent they were anything by nature. He had Frodo say in Return of the King that he believed, with Sauron gone, the orcs would become good because they couldn't have been created evil.

nagora

2006-02-23, 09:44 PM

Actually, Tolkien had tremendous (religion-based) issues with the idea of "evil by nature." His orcs were corrupted elves and, as such, good by nature to whatever extent they were anything by nature.

He did however hold that the only chance orcs had of re-igniting that goodness was in the period after death, when their spirits once more had the choice of going back to the West, or returning to Morgoth or Sauron in the East.

He had Frodo say in Return of the King that he believed, with Sauron gone, the orcs would become good because they couldn't have been created evil.

I don't recall that. I thought I had read all the orc-lore there was to read in JRRT. Mind you, there's so much of it, and so many versions of it, that things can slip your mind. Where was that?

It doesn't change the issue for orcs before the fall of Sauron anyway. Until then the orcs can not help (whether through choice or the will of Sauron) but to do evil and in fact killing them was in fact helping them as their spirits were tormented and imprisoned. So, yes, kill them all, babies as well (if orcs have babies, Tolkien seems to have thought not on balance although he changed his mind at least twice).

Serina_Spellbinder

2006-02-23, 09:46 PM

If Miko loses her temper any more we may see a new npc joining the Linear Guild in the future. To much anger does not a Paladin make.

Darn beat to the punch! :-[

Miko couldn't be part of the Linear Guild because she's not an evil opposite:

Elan - Nale
Haley - Sabine
Roy - Thog
Vaarsuvius - Pompey
Durkon - Nailed his evil opposite and sent her home, not yet replaced.
Belkar - Evil opposite KIA, not yet replaced.

Nightmarenny

2006-02-23, 09:47 PM

Miko couldn't be part of the Linear Guild because she's not an evil opposite:

Elan - Nale
Haley - Sabine
Roy - Thog
Vaarsuvius - Pompey
Durkon - Nailed his evil opposite and sent her home, not yet replaced.
Belkar - Evil opposite KIA, not yet replaced.

No all of them have been replaced. Two just haven't shown yet.

Serina_Spellbinder

2006-02-23, 09:48 PM

Wow, Miko's a b***...a crazy, crazy b***.

"It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman." - Proverbs 21:19, Solomon

What Miko is rhymes with "ducking runt"

Serina_Spellbinder

2006-02-23, 09:51 PM

No all of them have been replaced. Two just haven't shown yet.

Oh yeah. I just reviewed the comic and you're right.

But it sure was fun to say "Nailed his evil opposite." ;D

Serina_Spellbinder

2006-02-23, 09:56 PM

Miko certainly is a VIOLENT little monkey, isn't she?

It may sound a little trite, but she's got, well, you know....issues.

Miko's an object lesson for all players that being LG doesn't make you right about everything. In her we see the dark side, if you will, of that alignment...self-righteousness, zealotry, and dealing only in absolutes.

That being said, she still needs to be pimp-slapped in the worst way!! >:(

Euphemism

2006-02-23, 10:29 PM

Well, Ravenloft isn't heroic anything. It's a horror genre.

True, and I feel a bit of horror is necessary in a game to show that the Evil you fight against may be someone else's Good, which was the purpose of that little saga. It's clear that while this elicits a rather enthusiastic response from some, it likewise gives others pause.

Like the aforementioned Whitecloaks - I doubt you could call their organization, as a whole, anything but Lawful Good, and yet it is reviled as an embodiment of the evils of mankind. Similarly, the constantly warring castes of Aiel range the spectrum, but they all follow ji'e'toh in their own fashion. Does this make them Lawful? Tinkers - LG because of their revulsion towards violence, or TN because of their self-centered microcosm?

Just because the SRD has a set definition of what is what doesn't mean GMs have to be leashed to it.

Solara

2006-02-23, 11:01 PM

You may or may not be right. If you are right, then it just means 99% of all the D&D players out there aren't playing terribly good people. Sorry, I don't care who you think you are, you're not above the law and anyone who kills people for getting in his/her way is evil--in real-world terms, if you consider them meaningfully different from D&D alignment terms.

Getting in his/her way? How about ambushing your group without warning and telling you you'll all be executed unless you surrender...and probably also be executed if you surrender, actually?

If this plot hadn't been railroaded, the OOTS would have simply killed Miko in self defense and never thought twice about it, except perhaps a little idle curiousity after the fact.

"Random encounter with angry kung-fu chick. Huh. Interesting. Wonder what the deal was with that crime stuff she was babbling about? Start of a new sideplot, maybe? Well, if it was important I'm sure the DM will send some more kung-fu people along shortly, or maybe there'll be some juicy rumors in the next town to explain things in more detail.

Speaking of which, it's high time we get going again so we can spend that dragon loot, don't you think?"

Zonemind

2006-02-23, 11:17 PM

I just realized that this strip proves Vaarsuvius is at least 11th level. His Scorching Ray can fire three distinct rays.

We already knew V was at least 11th level, because he can cast disintegrate, a 6th level spell.

I was hoping that this meant we had an upper bound for V, though, because I thought scorching ray capped at 4 rays, not 3. Oh well.

Kish

2006-02-23, 11:21 PM

Getting in his/her way? How about ambushing your group without warning and telling you you'll all be executed unless you surrender...and probably also be executed if you surrender, actually?
I'll take your word for it that's what you meant. It's not what "won't tolerate any interference" conjured in my mind. That phrase reminds me much more of that Five Foot Steps issue where the adventuring party burns down the town the DM meant to be their base than of their encounter with Miko.

theKOT

2006-02-23, 11:21 PM

If this plot hadn't been railroaded, the OOTS would have simply killed Miko in self defense and never thought twice about it, except perhaps a little idle curiousity after the fact.

I don't know how simple it would have been to kill Miko. They woulda done it, but she could have taken one or two of them down first.

spectralphoenix

2006-02-24, 12:26 AM

In addition to Disintegrate, V also countered Sam's Chain Lightning, which is another 6th level spell.

I don't know how simple it would have been to kill Miko. They woulda done it, but she could have taken one or two of them down first.

Having read the Giant's description of the second Miko/Order battle, I would have to say the Order would have killed her out of hand without at least a little railroading (i.e. Belkar failing two Fort Saves in a row, the surprise round.)

Bakta

2006-02-24, 12:30 AM

Closing statement: Relax!! Paladins have a stick up there not a tree.

Well, now you mention it... Doesn't it looks like roots one see under the armour?.

Which makes her friendly relation with Durkon all the more odd.

Come to think of it, that's an uncovered topic yet : Which kind of tree would Miko have upholstered in her hind part?.

- my vote : The larch

Euphemism

2006-02-24, 12:41 AM

The larch

The Mighty Scotch Pine!

taranhw

2006-02-24, 12:45 AM

I'm sorry if this has already been gone over...I really didn't want to have to read another 20 pages of posts. (I'm not a serious purveyor of the forums, as you can see by my lack of posting.)
Here's my hope for Belkar's trial:
Someone will argue that Belkar was acting in self-defense when he killed the guard because he was taken prisoner by the Sapphire Guard when he hadn't originally actually done anything wrong to deserve incarceration by a foreign government. He will be let off with a Geis to go on a quest so that he's forced to do more good than he wants to, and the contempt he has for this quest will be funny.

l33tBlackguard

2006-02-24, 12:46 AM

Does this mean that there is going to be another trial then for Belkar?

As a general note in respsonse to a lot of what I've read, keep in mind that we've never actually been definitively told that he is evil. Though his actions suggest he may be evil, Hayley's actions would also suggest that she's greedy—but the Giant put that to rest some time ago.

Sorry if I didn't read through so many pages of postings, but I had to get this off my mind while fresh: We know Belkar is evil because of the early reference to his not being affected by the unholy blight spell (#11) Sorry to burst your bubble

The_Weirdo

2006-02-24, 01:27 AM

The Mighty Scotch Pine!

The loftiy flowering cherry!
The plucky little aspen!

With my best buddy by me side! We'd sing! Sing! SING!

Ooooh, I'm a lumberjack and I'm o-kay! I sleep all night and I work all day!

*Starts singing*

Holy_Knight

2006-02-24, 01:28 AM

You do know that you quoted the CG part of my post, not the LG/paladin part?

Yes--that was my whole point, in fact. I'm saying that I think that is what a paladin would say, and that such would be consistent with a Lawful Good alignment. I'm also disagreeing that a paladin would take the stance you ascribed to them.

As far as Vaarsuvius casting Scorching Ray rather than some other potentially more powerful spell, I think the answer is simply that that was what he had memorized. He clearly hasn't had time to memorize any spells between getting his equipment returned and the moment of casting, so he's having to use whatever he had not yet cast in the fight with Miko from strip #250.

geek_2049

2006-02-24, 01:35 AM

Poor Miko
Initially Roy was interested in a relationship with Miko and considered her a member of the OOTS team. After Miko makes herself emotionally vulnerable Roy drops a bomb and tells her not a chance (250), but he does recognize her as warrior. In 285 Roy tells Miko that she will never be a member of OOTS. It's like a painfully long drawn out breakup from no longer dating let's just be friends to no longer friends, to strike the final blow so that I might feel your warm sin-stained blood spilt righteously on the cold hard ground. It's no wonder Miko is angry, its her default emotion, its the only way she can protect herself from the fact that good people do not want her. Though Miko may be self-righteous she did lose two people in, Roy and Durkon, whom she considered relatively compatable on moral and ethical grounds. Though little is known about Miko, its safe to assume she does not have many friends or people that she considers equal (everyone is a peasant, lord, student, etc).

Miko says "You will suffer a great loss for choosing Evil over Good." Substitute Evil=Belkar and Good=Miko we get "You will suffer a great loss for choosing Belkar over Miko. This I swear." This is a cry for help if I ever heard one. What greater insult than to pick Belkar over anyone.

rashambo

2006-02-24, 01:46 AM

Miko says "You will suffer a great loss for choosing Evil over Good." Substitute Evil=Belkar and Good=Miko we get "You will suffer a great loss for choosing Belkar over Miko."

Poor Miko
Initially Roy was interested in a relationship with Miko and considered her a member of the OOTS team. After Miko makes herself emotionally vulnerable Roy drops a bomb and tells her not a chance (250), but he does recognize her as warrior. In 285 Roy tells Miko that she will never be a member of OOTS. It's like a painfully long drawn out breakup from no longer dating let's just be friends to no longer friends, to strike the final blow so that I might feel your warm sin-stained blood spilt righteously on the cold hard ground. It's no wonder Miko is angry, its her default emotion, its the only way she can protect herself from the fact that good people do not want her.

Yeah, her rant smacks of "jilted lover". But they would have dropped her this go around. An injured paladin vs a (mostly) fully healed, ready to fight bunch of PC's AND Durkon would be stepping in this time. This was a great OOTS month. They were all gold in my opinion.

Flak_Razorwill

2006-02-24, 02:04 AM

Jilted lover indeed. She has many reason to hate the OotS now, and hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

It's Friday.

xyzchyx

2006-02-24, 02:11 AM

Yeah, her rant smacks of "jilted lover".Yeah... I noticed that too. If you trace her rage back to its beginning, it appears to have really started when Roy told her that he wouldn't touch her with the "proverbial 10' pole", after Miko had expressed a possibility of reciprocating affection.

zimri

2006-02-24, 02:16 AM

Gaah! make it stop! (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=230)
Now! (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1133438285 ;start=3#3)

Maybe not, but I'm sure what she knows about Belkar and what he did with the corpse make her think so.

What did he do with the corpse ?

He owns a crayon, he has craft disturbing mental image, he wanted her angry AND wrong, the amount of blood necessary and the condition of the body do not coincide, the thickness of some of those lines would necessitate HANDFULS of blood which would mean belkar putting his hand in the wound and walking to the wall some would have at minimum dribbled on the floor.

plus it's more funny in crayon and happened just before the crayon saga.

I'm not saying he WOULDN'T do it just that it is more probable in this case that he wouldn't.

theKOT

2006-02-24, 02:35 AM

What did he do with the corpse ?

He owns a crayon, he has craft disturbing mental image, he wanted her angry AND wrong, the amount of blood necessary and the condition of the body do not coincide, the thickness of some of those lines would necessitate HANDFULS of blood which would mean belkar putting his hand in the wound and walking to the wall some would have at minimum dribbled on the floor.

plus it's more funny in crayon and happened just before the crayon saga.

I'm not saying he WOULDN'T do it just that it is more probable in this case that he wouldn't.

But the body is right there and those lines are too thick and smear-looking for crayon. Also, where would he have hidden his crayon? I would think that he has a very limited capacity in his hiding place.

Piedmon_Sama

2006-02-24, 02:46 AM

But yeah, seriously. Not a shot at the quality of recent eps, but I'm getting sick of this trial bit. Hoping that Belkar's legal situation is totally resolved on Friday.

SpaceCoyoteVega

2006-02-24, 03:10 AM

:'(

I mourn.

I lost respect for Miko each time she lost her temper. Each time the mask cracked. When she let them see they'd gotten to her.

I guess I identified with her. It's nice to see a strong female character in fiction. Not only that, but an authorative one, and one who isn't just, like, subcommander to the Evil Overlord Nemesis or some crap like that. Beyond that, I like characters like Miko. Quiet, unpredictable, dispassionately violent. The fact that she's female was just icing on the cake.

I know jack **** about palladins. I know slightly more about samurai. And Jin is my favorite character on Samurai Champloo.

*sigh*

The swearing blood and vengance, too, is a common samurai thing. It's just that when I play a samurai in games, I prefer to be the one who waits for other people to swear blood and vengance on me and my entire family, calls me a cowardly honorless dog for not defending my name, then proceeds to calmly whip them profoundly in the inevitable honor duel.

What I liked about Miko was her control. A lot of what Roy and the others said and did to Miko within the first few days of their meeting was, by Rokugani standards, vulgar, insulting and disrespectful to the point of "Honorless dog, how dare you dishonor my name in this way, I demand that we enguage in bloody limb-severing combat immediately so that I may kill you or die in battle rather than allow your insult to smear my family's name!"

And she kept a straight face throughout. When she acted oblivious, I assumed she was engauging in typical doublespeak- attempting to communicate "Your crude advances are making me incredibly uncomfortable. Please stop this now." To even acknowledge that the advances were being made would only have deepened the insult.

Another moment I saw as a classic instance of doublespeak- the lockpicking incident. Being deliberately obtuse in order to "do the wrong thing because it's right." She knows and understands Durkon to be honorable. She also knows that they picked the damn lock, but out of respect and for the sake of avoiding conflict, she ignores it.

This does not sound dumb if you're just coming out of a 6 month Lo5R campaign.

Geeze. I could go on. I'm mourning for Miko, for my perception of her, for who she was, who she could have been, and who she will now become.

I'm probably also judging her too harshly. She's spent an entire night fighting for her life, is hopped up on pain and adreneline. Saying I've lost all respect for her because she couldn't keep her cool? Because she lost her temper, she loses my approval?
(I lost a lot of it after her speech and reaction to Roy after the inn incident.)
That's not fair of me. But it's how I judge people. I'm a control freak.
thing is, after a night like that, hell even after a game session like that, I'd probably spend the rest of the night in my room shaking and crying. If I were Miko, or if I were playing her character, that's what I'd be doing now. But then I have severe emotional issues.

... hey... that reminds me of someone...

zimri

2006-02-24, 03:20 AM

But the body is right there and those lines are too thick and smear-looking for crayon. Also, where would he have hidden his crayon? I would think that he has a very limited capacity in his hiding place.

the one visible wound is on the side of the body opposite the wall Belkar isn't big enough to straddle the body so he has to take blood out at one side then walk around the body, blood being a liquid is drippy.

As too his hiding capacity if he can sleight of hand a lead sheet the size of a tower shield I think a crayon ,which to be frank is of accomadating size and shape to the hiding place we all presume he used for the ring, shouldn't be a hiding problem.

Frankly the blood/crayon debate can't be solved until the giant or belkar solves it. And even then Belkar could be lying and the giant's posts aren't canon.

Sc00by

2006-02-24, 03:21 AM

Well I'm glad someone brought that up. I was going to respond to the original post myself, but it was pages ago and I forgot. The idea that someone could consider any sort of torture "Good" is kind of scary. The people behind the Inquisition were undeniably LE, they just used a LG front (the Church...because we all know how in the bible Jesus runs around torturing and killing people to make them believe in him... ::) ) to perpetrate their evil so that no one would be able to question them without looking anti-Church themselves and thus opening themselves up for persecution.

Which was largely my point with the original post...

geek_2049

2006-02-24, 03:54 AM

:'(

That's not fair of me. But it's how I judge people. I'm a control freak.
thing is, after a night like that, hell even after a game session like that, I'd probably spend the rest of the night in my room shaking and crying. If I were Miko, or if I were playing her character, that's what I'd be doing now. But then I have severe emotional issues.

I insinuated a similar outcome though I considered it a possible spoiler, so I refrained from saying it. Miko's angry outburst is likely a facade covering the pain OOTS have caused her emotionally. She may win in a battle of swords and spells, but the battle of words she has been severely routed.

Miko's Achille's Heel is the fact that she is right , she has let the fact that she is an exemplary person blind her to the fact that other people can take a different path down the LG route and still end up at the same place.

I think the phrase many are looking for to describe Miko is an intransigent bitch.

:'(
But then I have severe emotional issues.

There is a world of difference between severe and deep seated emotional issues <http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=14>

RMcL

2006-02-24, 04:27 AM

About miko, how many ppl are forgetting.

Forget the rules of the game ... you are no longer rles lawyers ... when i click my fingers you will awake and remember none of this...

A paladin is an armed and somewhat zealous follower of a religion, who has martial training for the furtherance of the cause of the religion, be it defence or offence.

Re: Knights Templar, Spanish Inquisition, The knights of canterbury (Will no one rid me of this bothersome priest), the numerous crusades, Don Quixote and of course the legendary exploits of the vatican.

A fanatic does not have to be lawful good, in reality. He will attempt to relfect the virtues of his favoured deity. Depending on the situation, our god is a merciful loving being, or a wrathful smiter of infidels. Sounds like Lawful neutral to me.

Just a thought. and in games, chaotic paladins are fairly amusing if thought out properly...

Aeek

2006-02-24, 04:49 AM

I think a crayon ,which to be frank is of accomadating size and shape to the hiding place we all presume he used for the ring, shouldn't be a hiding problem.

Some of us do, I for one don't.
I think he wears the ring where it fits.

nagora

2006-02-24, 05:41 AM

Yes--that was my whole point, in fact. I'm saying that I think that is what a paladin would say, and that such would be consistent with a Lawful Good alignment. I'm also disagreeing that a paladin would take the stance you ascribed to them.

So you don't think being Lawful makes any difference to one's attitude to the relative importance of the individual Vs society?

Delgarde

2006-02-24, 05:46 AM

To properly understand this, it is best to have served in either a military or para-military (police, FF) unit.

Not even that - it's something anyone who works in a successful team knows, be it police, a sports team, or even just co-workers in an office. For all the personal differences that might exist, success depends on putting those differences aside and acting as a team. Belkar's a horrible little psychopath, but he contributes as much to the team as anyone else does, and they value that.

Delgarde

2006-02-24, 05:57 AM

<supposition> Why does lord Shojo tell Miko that her orders were to bring the "halfing" to the audience chamber?
</supposition>

D

I think you're reading too much into it. Miko was ordered to bring *all* the Order to the audience chamber, which is why she had the others in tow when she found Belkar had escaped. Belkar is only singled out here because the others had already been brought to him hours earlier.

zimri

2006-02-24, 06:03 AM

About miko, how many ppl are forgetting.

A paladin is an armed and somewhat zealous follower of a religion, who has martial training for the furtherance of the cause of the religion, be it defence or offence.

A fanatic does not have to be lawful good, in reality. He will attempt to relfect the virtues of his favoured deity. Depending on the situation, our god is a merciful loving being, or a wrathful smiter of infidels. Sounds like Lawful neutral to me.

Just a thought. and in games, chaotic paladins are fairly amusing if thought out properly...

In 1st and 2nd edition (I don't recall seeing them in third) the folks you describe were called cavaliers, Still fighters for a God but less stringent on the whole LG thing and no spells if I recall correctly.

Bakta

2006-02-24, 06:03 AM

Re: Knights Templar, Spanish Inquisition, The knights of canterbury (Will no one rid me of this bothersome priest), the numerous crusades, Don Quixote and of course the legendary exploits of the vatican.
...

Just a quick correction here : Spanish Inquisitions are not knights, they're ninjas.

Because...."Nobody expect the Spanish Inquisition"

Not taking a skill point in basic math mandatory too.

Delgarde

2006-02-24, 06:08 AM

Not to take away from any of your points, but I think, also, Vaarsuvius thinks (probably correctly) that Lord Shojo would probably have a more negative reaction if s/he used a spell that appeared to be intended to kill Miko and make her harder to resurrect, instead of just to incapacitate her.

That, and because with an instant-death spell, V wouldn't have had the opportunity to insult Miko to her face. I don't think the ray was intended to kill her, just get her attention. V *does* like blowing things up, but also likes to give a speech first.

Delgarde

2006-02-24, 06:13 AM

As too his hiding capacity if he can sleight of hand a lead sheet the size of a tower shield I think a crayon ,which to be frank is of accomadating size and shape to the hiding place we all presume he used for the ring, shouldn't be a hiding problem.

Actually, that's a *really* good point, which I don't recall seeing anyone else bring up. Belkar was stripped of pretty much everything but his clothing and a well-hidden ring - how'd he manage to keep hold of his trusty lead sheet?

Seems he may not have ranks in any traditional ranger skill, but must have an awful lot of them in Sleight of Hand...

geek_2049

2006-02-24, 06:15 AM

Why Miko does not Violate the Saphire Code of Conduct
Consider EP 199/200 vs 285. In both cases Miko has, to her best knowledge, an evil character who is prone, disarmed, and low on hp. In both cases she is prepared to end their respective lives. In both cases Miko's orders are to bring the accused to trial, but there must be some implied mandate that grants her use of lethal force. For the sake of consistency killing an evil being must not violate any of her paladin codes.

QED

nagora

2006-02-24, 06:19 AM

Actually, that's a *really* good point, which I don't recall seeing anyone else bring up. Belkar was stripped of pretty much everything but his clothing and a well-hidden ring - how'd he manage to keep hold of his trusty lead sheet?

To approximately quote Roger Rabbit:

"You mean you could have taken your hand out of that handcuff at any time?!"

"No, Eddie. Only when it was funny"

This is a case of rules of comedy trumping rules of the game.

Chronomancer

2006-02-24, 06:42 AM

Even our modern laws, which grant prisoners far more rights than what prisoners would have in times represented in a fantasy setting, do not do this. Breaking out of jail and assulting a police officer is wholly illegal, and even if you are innocent of the crime for which they are putting behind bars for. And even if you are vindicated of the original crime, you can and will still face a pretty heavy penalty for those actions.

There seems to be a little bit of leniency on the part of modern courts with regards to resisting arrest if the person is ultimately found innocent, as long as such resistance is not violent in any way (eg, simply fleeing), but that's only from what I've seen in cases I've witnessed, and probably should not be taken as a general rule.
Maybe in the US legal system. If you are arrested innocently here, and you commit jailbreak, you'll have to pay money when they catch you again. Not quite a heavy penalty. If you knocked a police officer down while doing so, you'll have to pay more. Just be careful not to really hurt anyone while fleeing, that'll make things much worse for you.

As for resisting arrest. The same. If you just flee, it actually changes nothing. You don't even have to pay. Fleeing from a threat is a natural reflex, even when you are innocent. It will only make the judges ask you questions about why you tried to flee, makes you "look guilty" after all.
Injuring an officer that tries to arrest you will result in a penalty of course. You're not allowed to injure anyone except when you are endangered yourself.

Sebastian

2006-02-24, 06:42 AM

No, I was simply saying that a single chaotic act is not an automatic fall. How was attacking the OOTS grossly violating her personal code of conduct?
It violate her Sapphire guard's code of conduct. she is attacking someone without the order of her lord and master, while in the presence of her lord and master,and for absolutely inadeguate reasons.

Didn't she ever stop to think for a second "I'm in a room chocked full of paladins and good clerics, there is a being of absolute good and law and my master lord Shoio himself, and still I'm the only one attacking these guys. It is not possible that maybe I'm doing the wrong thing?"

Faryn

2006-02-24, 06:47 AM

:'(
But then I have severe emotional issues.

... hey... that reminds me of someone...

If you're a girl, could we date? P

nagora

2006-02-24, 07:16 AM