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The Giant
2006-02-23, 01:15 AM
OK, I got the technical problem fixed. The comic is now up. Technically late, but it's double-length, so deal with it. :P ;)

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 01:15 AM
AWESOME!!!!

EDIT: Ok, I got first post, I achived my goal, yay for me. Now, for actual discussion.

I love how Miko adresses all the posters who say she shouldn't be a paladin anymore: "For I am a paladin, whether any of you like it or not." It showed some great internal struggle for her to obey the Orders she was given.

Oh, and Belkar had her right where he wanted her. "Do it... c'mon, do it..."

I wonder why, though? ???

Drizzt_Fanboy_74
2006-02-23, 01:16 AM
WOO-HOO-HOO-HOOOO!!!!

Swashbuckler
2006-02-23, 01:16 AM
YESSSSSSS!

The_Werebear
2006-02-23, 01:17 AM
BELKAR LIVES!

*kiss*

Our little psyco isn't going to be a hafling colored smear after all.


;D

Deuce
2006-02-23, 01:17 AM
"And I still prefer him to you"

priceless ;D

Bozidar
2006-02-23, 01:17 AM
great stuff, but i was really hoping Miko would turn from the good just a little bit :)

and classic elan to close it out.. great double strip, thanks!!

Flak_Razorwill
2006-02-23, 01:17 AM
That was...a bit...umm...wow.

It solved some issues, but opened a whole buncha new ones. My music fits, too.

Tsuyoi_Gunshin
2006-02-23, 01:17 AM
Great work, Giant! Oh man, Miko is SEVERLY pissed!

*edit* and I seem to have a quick enough connection to get 1st page wow!

PhoeKun
2006-02-23, 01:17 AM
Yup. Miko's a samurai if I've ever seen one.

I do so love this comic.

soni
2006-02-23, 01:18 AM
11:14 central.. someone mark the time in which someone posts what Haley said...


how does Miko move like that with a stick up her ass?
LOL

Pigeon
2006-02-23, 01:18 AM
I still dont understand the line in the eyes thing.

rashambo
2006-02-23, 01:18 AM
Yes! I knew he was taunting her.....

killingwithasmile
2006-02-23, 01:18 AM
yes , well worth the suspense.

double sized, great dialouge, and best of all no deaths thanks to v and the others so no one can possibly complain about the outcome.

and the ending was a good plot hook but not incredibly suspenseful so there will be no sleep deprived fans waiting for 286.

well done giant on another great comic

Spider_Jerusalem
2006-02-23, 01:18 AM
Damn, Haley! Why did you miss that arrow? :P

Ryltar_Swordsong
2006-02-23, 01:19 AM
The best part was Belkar's "Hey, that's a good idea..."

Tomada
2006-02-23, 01:19 AM
Thanks, now I can go to sleep

"And here I though she was going to be upset!"

Giant, you are very good in what you do!

Gefangnis
2006-02-23, 01:19 AM
There is a god...!

Ohhh, is she nasty.

Now I can sleep!

Invariel
2006-02-23, 01:19 AM
So proud of Roy for sticking up for Belkar.

And so proud of Haley for shooting at Miko.

All in all, I'm glad I waited and didn't go to bed.

Jonsayt
2006-02-23, 01:19 AM
Excellent strip. Not a classically funny one, but very interesting....raises a few questions.

Thanks again Giant.

Brianish
2006-02-23, 01:20 AM
Crazy Bitch.

TheJet31619
2006-02-23, 01:20 AM
The wait is finally over! Great comic, can't wait for the next one on Friday.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 01:20 AM
Question. If Miko hadn't been stopped from attacking would that have been evil? I mean their good. But they did attack first and they were defending their freind. He is evil though...

He I love Belkars first line. Egging her on and being a bastard to the end. ;D

Duskrider_Moogle
2006-02-23, 01:21 AM
That was awesome. I love the Order sticking up for each other, although (with the exception of Roy) it was more like standing against Miko than with Belkar, but hey.

I really liked this one. The "art" was topnotch...and Shojo is really a great dude.

Although I really don't think Roy's admonishment that "You're not a member of the Order of the SticK" carries much weight with Miko..I somehow doubt that she -cares-.

Curunir
2006-02-23, 01:21 AM
That was the cutest comic ever. It was so nice speech that Roy had for belkars defense. And Miko is so cute, when she is upset.

And do we have to go trough another courtscene? For when they start discussing belkar's crimes. Well....

Ranorian
2006-02-23, 01:22 AM
My opinion: Miko needs therapy. Anger management therapy. :P

Curunir
2006-02-23, 01:23 AM
Although I really don't think Roy's admonishment that "You're not a member of the Order of the SticK" carries much weight with Miko..I somehow doubt that she -cares-.


maybe it was meant for all those ppl in this forum, who have discussed about Miko joining the OotS.

aaronbourque
2006-02-23, 01:23 AM
For I am a paladin . . .
Woo-hoo!


. . . whether any of YOU like it or not.
Woo!

Satisfactory conclusion.

I now predict that Miko will never be seen again!

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

Liquid
2006-02-23, 01:23 AM
Great strip...I loved the way Belkar taunted her "C'mon..do it". It's almost like a good cop bad cop story :)

ragingmaro
2006-02-23, 01:23 AM
Awesome! Thank you so much for not killing my favorite halfling!

Brickwall
2006-02-23, 01:23 AM
Miko's last line gave me chills. she's no longer Lawful Good, she's Lawful Creepy. She is steeping the pleasures of evil into her interpretation of good, and soon she shall become evil herself. And it is awesome.

Thanks again, Rich, even though it's Thursday where I live.

Kingrat
2006-02-23, 01:23 AM
sigh...

another cryptic haley bubble. this is getting old Giant, i dont expect to jump in the forums each time haley says something so that i can read the translation.

if u still insist her of speaking in code, then at least just write at the bottom of the comic what she spoke. It really is being severly overused.

Ravenlord
2006-02-23, 01:24 AM
I sure hope this means Belkar will be put to a jail he won't - can't - escape. And be kept there. For a long, long, loooooooooooooooooong time.

Sarathi
2006-02-23, 01:25 AM
Very nicly done. Mikos speach at the end was very chilling. Im hoping this isnt the last we have seen of her.

redmind0
2006-02-23, 01:25 AM
props RB
woot third page
a personal record

Kodoz
2006-02-23, 01:25 AM
Did anyone else just feel shivers down their spines reading miko's last lines? *shudders and hugs blankets* That is one SCARY paladin.

The Giant
2006-02-23, 01:25 AM
I still dont understand the line in the eyes thing.

It's a glitch in Illustrator. I can't figure out why, but Belkar's eyelids are turning transparent. I'm trying to fix it now.

Tomada
2006-02-23, 01:26 AM
I'd rather see Miko getting her arse kicked, since THIS time she isn't getting any surprise round, must have spent all her Lay on Hands (she is hurt, after all, if she had LoH, she would have used it by now), probably spent some spells, AND must be down A LOT of Hitpoints.

BUT, seeing her calling revenge for egoist and unlawful reasons is good too. (remember, she is going agains her masters orders, that's unlawfull, and she is swearing revenge just because of what Belkar did to her, it doesn't matter if justice will punish him or not, she is going to LIKE it. Sadism is not a healthy thing for a paladin. Not that I think that she will fall, but Rich may have a different aproach to things...)

Dark_Nemesis
2006-02-23, 01:28 AM
Miko's words are quite close to what I would imagine a recurring EVIL villian saying...

Creepy.

BurntOfferings
2006-02-23, 01:28 AM
Scorching ray to the back of the head! Woot! Go V! I guess disintegrate would've been too much, what with all the other paladins and the great big extraplanar Lawful Good fella there. Too bad.

Wow, even Elan had angry eyebrows.

I wonder what Mr. Scruffy wants to say to Roy.

Kodoz
2006-02-23, 01:28 AM
Oh, and Giant, do you ever plan to possibly write a short story, perhaps a novel? I know i'd buy a copy. you really have riveted me to this story as well as any of the best selling authors i know.

RBloom0566
2006-02-23, 01:28 AM
I'm surprised the being of pure Law and Good didn't stick around for a summary ruling against Belkar. He was there when he fell through the skylight.

Several points:
1) What did Mr. Scruffy want to say to Roy?
2) Why DOES Belkar seem to be inviting death at Miko's hands?
3) Did OotS really attack first? I think Miko flew at them and they defended themselves.
4) I think Miko is going to have an atonement to perform after being sent to her room.

Well worth the wait. Still waiting on the Code Busters to tell us what Haley said.

Miles Invictus
2006-02-23, 01:28 AM
I am a paladin...whether any of YOU like it or not.

Heh heh heh...I think the Giant is sending a message to some of his fans. :)

All in all, a nice way to resolve the fight without killing Belkar or employing some ridiculous deus ex machina to save him.

ref
2006-02-23, 01:28 AM
no! Belkar should have died. His body disintegrated, his houses burned, his lands plowed and sown with salt. Grrr...

V has dropped a lot of points for me.

Bruendor_Cavescout
2006-02-23, 01:29 AM
First post, but a long time reader. And a crypto-enthusiast!

"You can't understand me, so let me just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look fat in that armor."

Even funnier, since everyone's legs are one dimensional!

It was the conclusion that probably had to happen. He couldn't kill off Belkar yet, no matter how much the halfling might deserve it.

Of more interest, who thinks Miko's words are prophetic at all? Someone's going to pay for choosing to keep Belkar around...and pay dearly. My money's on Elan. (Can we start a dead pool for literary characters?)

team56th
2006-02-23, 01:29 AM
Good, good...

First. On this strip Miko reminds me of Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars Prequel Trilogy. She is now filled with anger and bloodthirst... Now turn to Dark Side, Miko!(p.s. I HATE YOU MIKO!!!)

And I now understand why Rich was sensitive to alignment argument. At last Roy got the point. Miko's act is not suitable one of both LG and paladin class.

This strip is not for fun but for a definition of alignment I think.

And now, Belkar's fate. What would that be?

The_Ducky_Ninja
2006-02-23, 01:29 AM
How has no1 mentioned V's amazing quote:

"...and whose mental acuity would be compared unfavorably to that of a table."

Good stuff.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-02-23, 01:30 AM
Top-grade stuff. I loved Roy's and V's monologues in the first half, and absolutely adored Miko's expressions and antagonist speechifying in the second.

Let the hate flow through you, young Miyazaki...

Okay, how in all the various Lower Planes does an entire PAGE get posted while I'm writing?

BurntOfferings
2006-02-23, 01:30 AM
I now predict that Miko will never be seen again!

Hey, no predictions in the main thread. ;)


P.S. Welcome back.

ExHunterEmerald
2006-02-23, 01:30 AM
...That is not healthy paladin behavior.
That's "I'll get you, my pretties" talk.
If that's not grounds for instalignment change, then Belkar's Lawful Good.

Kodoz
2006-02-23, 01:31 AM
That has to be the best crypto haley speech so far, haha

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 01:31 AM
She's not going against her master's orders. She followed them. And after what Belkar put her through, that must have took a lot of willpower.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 01:31 AM
no! Belkar should have died. His body disintegrated, his houses burned, his lands plowed and sown with salt. Grrr...

V has dropped a lot of points for me.
Because she defended an alie? I can see you guys not liking Belkar but this is far to much. ::)

Ragnarokpc
2006-02-23, 01:31 AM
I guess I'm missing the alignment argument, or the Paladin argument . . . but bloodthirst to me, whether sin-stained or not, seems very un-paladin-like.

The different threads of the plot are getting much more numerous and twisted. Excellent work, sir.

The Glitter Ninja
2006-02-23, 01:31 AM
Yes! It's about loyalty. Miko is not a member of OOTS and never will be.

I am seriously happy right now.

In case no one else has translated, here's what Haley says:

"You can't understand us, so let us just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look fat in that armor."

Actually, I don't care if it's been translated, I just wanted to repeat it. Yay!

jackal59
2006-02-23, 01:31 AM
another cryptic haley bubble. this is getting old Giant, i dont expect to jump in the forums each time haley says something so that i can read the translation.

if u still insist her of speaking in code, then at least just write at the bottom of the comic what she spoke. It really is being severly overused.

I wouldn't put it quite as harshly. But tonight I didn't even notice that Haley shot at Miko because I've gotten to the point that I just block Haley out since I can't understand her and don't have time or patience to decode her. I read the panels of the other characters and avoid hers.

Ravenlord
2006-02-23, 01:31 AM
First post, but a long time reader. And a crypto-enthusiast!

"You can't understand me, so let me just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look fat in that armor."

You Sir, won. ;D Thanks!

JazzManJim
2006-02-23, 01:32 AM
"I am a Paladin...whether any of YOU like it or not"

That was absolutely beautiful.

It's a very clever reminder to the crew that the world doesn't actually revolve around them, though they believe it does (a couple more than the others).

And I do hope that Belkar gets a good helping of humbling comeuppance (mmmm....comeuppance). He's become a real twit lately and his latest shenanigans could have put the gang in serious peril.

(Yeah, I'm a bit of a Miko fan, though definitely ont as rabid as some. Maybe it's because so many other folks dislike her with such vehemence).

Fine job, Mr Giant, Sir!

redmind0
2006-02-23, 01:32 AM
Paladins by (d&d) deffinition are religious fanatics. FANATICS ARE DAMGEROUS

Loghren the Barbarian
2006-02-23, 01:32 AM
Lawful Creepy

Nice ;D
That's one of my new favorite alignments. Right up there with "Chaotic Stupid" (Orcs are chaotic evil, not Chaotic Stupid).

Genesis018
2006-02-23, 01:32 AM
My prediction: Belkar was trying to make her fall from her Paladin's graces by slaughtering the helpless (like the example given in the D&D handbook; does a lawful good paladin slaughter defenseless goblin youngsters because they are inherently evil?)

I expect, however, the Linear Guild will end up recruiting Miko by pretending to be the good ones. She will eventually realise her mistake and have to atone.

Now I just need to crack Haley's speech.

RBloom0566
2006-02-23, 01:32 AM
As for King Rat.. :P
I like a little bit of Haley Mambo-Jahambo.

Holy_Knight
2006-02-23, 01:32 AM
Wow... like many people, I too was shocked at Miko's final words. I would have guessed she would feel something like that toward Belkar, but the rest of the Order? It's kind of chilling.

Also, things are looking pretty bleak for Belkar--I seriously doubt we'll get a "it was strictly necessary at the time" verdict over his killing the guard. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 01:33 AM
Well, That got me off of Mikos side. Before she was annoying and judgemental, but against evil, not the Order. I don't see how her actions in this comic do anything for the plot. She is static now. [spoiler] Eventually, she will rejoin the storyline, but not in a way anyone expected or probably even wanted. I liked the conflict with her and the order, but her words upon her departure sealed her character for the time being. Her bloodlust once emerged for the first time since the end of the first plot arch. Miko is almost definitely a permanent NPC now. I guess the plotline will move on without her. Blech, to me watching her character develop was half of what I was looking forward to.
[spoiler]


Opinion: I don't think loyalty is a quality worth forgiving all faults for. I'm glad Belkar lives to stab another day, but I had hoped for Miko to change. To become a character that would move on and learn and develop. This strip made me sad. I hope the plot picks up... because character development just lost a lot of my interest.


The Giant has a right to do what he wants with his characters, and I have a right to express sadness when something I hoped for doesn't happen.

fwiffo
2006-02-23, 01:34 AM
My favorite line of the strip is:

"Do it... C'mon, do it..."

It is not because it is the funniest - it isn't. But it shows that whatever Belkar's plan was, he was in control the whole fight. It wasn't a taunt, since it was done as a whisper (it is grey, not black, which is how Giant designates whisper). It was an mental encouragement by Belkar to have Miko do what he wanted her to do.

Kudos to Belkar. I guess we'll never find out exactly what he was planning, but whatever it was, fight went exactly as he wanted it to go. He executed this fight perfectly. Whatever the table might have on him in terms of mental acuity, he is a tactical genius, as long as he wants to be.

Serina_Spellbinder
2006-02-23, 01:34 AM
My opinion of Miko...

rhymes with "ducking itch"

Frojoe21
2006-02-23, 01:34 AM
Great comic. Finally, Miko is shut up. Yay.

T'was worth the wait, for sure.

MRumble
2006-02-23, 01:35 AM
If Miko loses her temper any more we may see a new npc joining the Linear Guild in the future. To much anger does not a Paladin make.


Darn beat to the punch! :-[

Omniplex
2006-02-23, 01:36 AM
Did anyone else notice that there's no spotlight on Miko? Not sure if that's important or anything, just a successful spot check.

Spider_Jerusalem
2006-02-23, 01:36 AM
Good, good...

First. On this strip Miko reminds me of Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars Prequel Trilogy. She is now filled with anger and bloodthirst... Now turn to Dark Side, Miko!(p.s. I HATE YOU MIKO!!!)

A Blackguard Miko would be nice. But not as nice as a dead Miko.

V should have cast a Maximized Scorching Ray. Or disintegrated Miko. And Haley shouldn't miss that arrow. But hey, that's no problem, see? It's as they say: "What isn't killed today can be killed tomorrow."

Duckluck
2006-02-23, 01:36 AM
Let me explain how paladins seem to work. At least a lot of the time. People play them with a stick up the ass and no sense of humor until either they figure out how to roleplay, or the get bored and try something else like going Blackgaurd. Somehow I think Miko's not likely to do the first thing, but she could easilly do the other. She isn't the most stable individual afterall. Plus her murderous bent is a sure sign of bad news to come. At this point it isn't really a question of when she's going to fall, but what is going to finally send her over the edge. Of course, that would be the obvious thing, and she did say she was a Paladin whether people "liked it or not." Hmm...

Kharnel
2006-02-23, 01:37 AM
You can't understand me, so let me just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look
fat in that armor.

A = C
C = F
D = D
E = T
F = H
G = E
H = L
K = M
L = B
M = D
O = R
Q = N
R = Y
S = O
T = U
U = I
W = S
X = J
Y = G
Z = A

EDIT: . . . oh. Looks like I got beat. Apologies, but I guess there's the key if anyone is interested.

Spider_Jerusalem
2006-02-23, 01:38 AM
Did anyone else notice that there's no spotlight on Miko? Not sure if that's important or anything, just a successful spot check.

I guess that's because, as Lord Shojo said, she shouldn't be there after her work(bringing Belkar to the court) was finished.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 01:38 AM
My favorite line of the strip is:

"Do it... C'mon, do it..."

It is not because it is the funniest - it isn't. But it shows that whatever Belkar's plan was, he was in control the whole fight. It wasn't a taunt, since it was done as a whisper (it is grey, not black, which is how Giant designates whisper). It was an mental encouragement by Belkar to have Miko do what he wanted her to do.

Kudos to Belkar. I guess we'll never find out exactly what he was planning, but whatever it was, fight went exactly as he wanted it to go. He executed this fight perfectly. Whatever the table might have on him in terms of mental acuity, he is a tactical genius, as long as he wants to be.
No it shows that he was going to die the way he lived. He was going to piss her off to the end.

On another note Belkar reminds me of another comic charecter that dies the same way Belkar almost does.http://www.itswalky.com/d/20041002.htmlWhy do I love the Aholes ;D

Kodoz
2006-02-23, 01:39 AM
I just noticed something...after she speaks with Durkon, and he goes "Think Lass. This Cannae Be what Thor wanted. Let thar be no more death taday." She actually does stop and think, and almost looks...completely shellshocked. Like his words struck a chord in her, and completely knocked her off balance for a handful of heartbeats, but then she realized all the things she's had to put up with, and they overcame her logic. She really is running on emotion right now.

Shinsei
2006-02-23, 01:39 AM
Well, I'm not fully sure since this is in response to a spoiler how it will be taken, but...

I really do doubt Miko will be joining the Linear Guild. It would take quite a stretch for that detect-evil-happy Paladin to travel all the way up to the north without orders, somehow join forces with an LE maniac and his demonic consort, and throughout believe its all the right thing just to spite OotS.

Theres no atonement for that kinda thing. Thats blackguard material.

Euphemism
2006-02-23, 01:40 AM
You can't understand me, so let me just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look fat in that armor.

I translated it, I'm posting it, dangit.

AmoDman
2006-02-23, 01:40 AM
Wow, Miko's a b***...a crazy, crazy b***.

"It is better to dwell in the wilderness, than with a contentious and an angry woman." - Proverbs 21:19, Solomon

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 01:40 AM
Hayley says:
"You can't understand me, so let me just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look fat in that armor."

Totally worth the half hour.

(Gr. Beaten by less than a minute. All because I checked the thread to make sure no one else had posted it yet. Oh the irony.)

RDarken
2006-02-23, 01:40 AM
I don't see the Blackguard thing happening. She is too zealous to fall. She really believes she is doing good. Her last speech of the comic was a little... sadistic, but she was angry. She said the Order would suffer for choosing Evil, but she didn't say "I'll get you for this!" Either way, I doubt we have seen the last of her.

Oznstuff
2006-02-23, 01:40 AM
And as usual Elan has the last, clueless, word. I wonder what exactly he would define as "upset"? Gotta love 'em, though! :)

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 01:42 AM
I don't see the Blackguard thing happening. She is too zealous to fall. She really believes she is doing good. Her last speech of the comic was a little... sadistic, but she was angry. She said the Order would suffer for choosing Evil, but she didn't say "I'll get you for this!" Either way, I doubt we have seen the last of her.
The Zealus the the easiest to make fall.

Shinsei
2006-02-23, 01:42 AM
Oh, and, Miko did have a good speech at the end; nice effect on alot of people it seems.

It's nice to see a vowing to get you and your little dog that dosn't end with Belkar stabbing in the back and an argument about XP that could have been gotten <chuckles.>

Hey I wonder if they got XP for defeating Miko in that way? Belkar probably just leveled twice if so. ^^

Oh, and as stating ones personal favoritism for characters or plotlines seems to be the norm... I miss Redcloak. :)

JazzManJim
2006-02-23, 01:43 AM
Well, I'm not fully sure since this is in response to a spoiler how it will be taken, but...

I really do doubt Miko will be joining the Linear Guild. It would take quite a stretch for that detect-evil-happy Paladin to travel all the way up to the north without orders, somehow join forces with an LE maniac and his demonic consort, and throughout believe its all the right thing just to spite OotS.

Theres no atonement for that kinda thing. Thats blackguard material.


I don't see Miko going blackguard.

In fact, I see Miko being right in the dead-center of her belief system, even with her anger. I don't know that I'm going to get a lot of traction with this idea, but were I a GM and someone played their Paladin like that, they'd be getting a roleplaying XP award at the end of the session.

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 01:44 AM
(I'm tired of people responding to this post. I should have removed it sooner. C'est la vie.)

Ravenlord
2006-02-23, 01:45 AM
I wonder. Would a player playing Miko (if there was one) get awarded extra XP for roleplaying? Like Belkar got some for his speech.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 01:46 AM
Does this mean that there is going to be another trial then for Belkar?

As a general note in respsonse to a lot of what I've read, keep in mind that we've never actually been definitively told that he is evil. Though his actions suggest he may be evil, Hayley's actions would also suggest that she's greedy—but the Giant put that to rest some time ago.
........If you were human I would eat you.

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 01:46 AM
Meh, I'd slap the player, then bow to them, for their ln'ness, and their awesome roleplaying. I'll have to admit now that he's CE, but, what an awesome comic. Woo, miko got rejected!

OzymandiasVolt
2006-02-23, 01:46 AM
Miko certainly is a VIOLENT little monkey, isn't she?

fwiffo
2006-02-23, 01:46 AM
No it shows that he was going to die the way he lived. He was going to piss her off to the end.;D

As I mentioned, this was done as a whisper. Those are not words meant for her to hear. What Belkar said was not to annoy Miko; this is Belkar doing a little mental encouragment to have his plans work how he wanted them to work.

Annalia
2006-02-23, 01:46 AM
That sure bodes ill for Miko. Her last line were rather extreme.

And my favourite line was Elan's: 'Yeah!You big meanie!'. Couldn't fond anything meanier, huh? I do love V speech too, I wouldn't have expected him/her to be the first to react.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 01:47 AM
As I mentioned, this was done as a whisper. Those are not words meant for her to hear. This is not said to annoy Miko, this is Belkar doing exactly what he wanted to do.

There is a reason why the near-dead wisper and its not becaue they are talking to themselfs.

Shinsei
2006-02-23, 01:48 AM
Yeah, we were definitively told awhile ago. I don't keep the link onhand or anything but Giant posted a "What the heck is wrong with you people?" message awhile back stating in no uncertain terms that he is evil and has been evil, and showed a partial list of his evil acts.

Pretty much what it comes down to anymore is "Does Giant really know his own characters, or do I have a better understanding of them?"

Reminds me of the bible, really.

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 01:48 AM
Only because the Giant explained another motive for Haley. So far Belkar's motives have been shown to have all been evil.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 01:49 AM
As I mentioned, this was done as a whisper. Those are not words meant for her to hear. This is not said to annoy Miko, this is Belkar doing exactly what he wanted to do.

He was to weak to do anything else.
Edit: Beat to it by a lot.

Anyway, Miko's shaking in fury and yet she held up and did not immediately do it.... Follows orders to the end... so sad.

Shlik
2006-02-23, 01:49 AM
Wow, a BBGG for a (mostly) good party.

Nice...

Xenon
2006-02-23, 01:49 AM
love the comic. as always :)

i am curious as to which specific diety the sapphire gaurd serve. looks like chinesse zodiac... but theres 12 of em. im not overly familiar with them, so i cant guess offhand. But the asian religious philosophy can be very different from the western, thus explaining Miko's worldview.

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 01:49 AM
........If you were human I would eat you.
<----------Yeah, good thing. My friends call me Traveler.

Euphemism
2006-02-23, 01:50 AM
While I dislike Miko, her 'righteous anger' is zealotry, and not necessarily outside her alignment. If I might elaborate:

My favorite reocurring villain for my PCs was a paladin. Utterly lawful good, utterly devoted to his god and his liege. So much so, that when his god decreed that it would be for the greater good to torch the village of curse-pox-ridden peasants rather than risk the incurable disease spread across the countryside, he was there with torch in hand.

When his liege, who was prophecied to be vital to defeating the god's legendary foe come armageddon, lay dying, the paladin agreed to assist him in the rites necessary for him to achieve immortality via magical means - lichdom. Even to the point, finally, of committing suicide to power the rite when the PCs attempted to intervene.

And never did his needle fluctuate from LG.

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 01:50 AM
The thing I liked was that in the last comic, Miko is about to bring the blade down. I think that the only reason she waited that long was Belkar was whispering to do it and her reflex was to do the opposite of what he wanted.

And I'm surprised it took Shojo so long to stop Miko.

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 01:50 AM
Let's not revive the Belkar - evil or not debate? Please? Pretty, pretty please? With a cherry on top? He is evil. Belkar is evilly evil with evil tendancies towards evilness in an evil way. Evil! EvilEvilEvilEvil Eviiiiiiiilllllll. Eeeeeevvvvviiiiiiiiiiillllllllllllllllllll....

Sorry, just had an Evilgasm there. I can see why Xykon enjoys them.

EVIL!

Hawkeye
2006-02-23, 01:51 AM
Wow, I didn't expect the group to rally around Belkar so quickly, and definetly did not think that V would react first.

Additional: 7 pages in about 30 minutes? That's just silly.

FreeloadingSausage
2006-02-23, 01:51 AM
Nice ;D
That's one of my new favorite alignments. Right up there with "Chaotic Stupid" (Orcs are chaotic evil, not Chaotic Stupid).

But we *do* know that the alignment of ALL PCs is "Chaotic Greedy"

fwiffo
2006-02-23, 01:52 AM
He was to weak to do anything else.

Sure thing... yet he talks normally in his next bubble and stands up in the next one, without anyone casting healing on him.

Oh, and he has a frown when Vaarsuvius interrupts Miko in mid-strike.

Looks like Miko is not the only one who completely misread the fight.

infiniteviking
2006-02-23, 01:52 AM
Yay! I knew the comic would show up if I lurked long enough.

Rock on, Giant! Excellent climax. Belkar lives, Miko is unrepentant, and Vaarsuvius proves as eloquent and effective as ever, managing to insult both of them at once. (GO V!!) The Order once again show perfect internal loyalty (though Belkar's wavers slightly), and I like how Miko's paladin discipline is stronger than her desire for revenge. She'll be a formidable foe when/if she shows up again.

...The comments went from five to seven pages in the four minutes I took to read them.

I love this forum. ;D

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 01:52 AM
Yeah, we were definitively told awhile ago. I don't keep the link onhand or anything but Giant posted a "What the heck is wrong with you people?" message awhile back stating in no uncertain terms that he is evil and has been evil, and showed a partial list of his evil acts.

Pretty much what it comes down to anymore is "Does Giant really know his own characters, or do I have a better understanding of them?"

Reminds me of the bible, really.
I was afraid of that while I was posting... Although I've been reading the comic for a while, I've only just started reading the message boards, and only sparsely (I do have homework, after all).

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up ;)

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-23, 01:53 AM
Woo, what a climaxinization!

"And yet I still prefer him to you," has to be one of the best verbal slapdowns since "not with a standard issue 10-foot pole!" Or at least it was, until, "and your thighs look fat in that armor." If nothing else, we should keep Miko around because she seems to bring out the best creative insults in everyone! =p

I'm a little dissapointed, though. Right now it certainly looks like Miko will never be joining The Order. (Guess I can just scrap her out of the big groupshot I'll scan for ya'll someday. *Sigh*) There was potential for the irritating stick-up-the-butt Paladin in their group dynamics, but I guess it isn't to be.

Glad to see Belkar's gonna pull through, but.... how are they gonna explain that dead guard? "He was too stupid to live," is my first thought.... even when he resolves one conflict, the Giant always leaves me with something to fret over until the next comic.

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 01:53 AM
Wow, I didn't expect the group to rally around Belkar so quickly, and definetly did not think that V would react first.

Additional: 7 pages in about 30 minutes? That's just silly.

I think this may be this most anticipated strip in OOTSdom. Ever. Which is a good thing, IMO. 8)

afflictedkender
2006-02-23, 01:55 AM
So either Belkar was just being his usual CE self, or there's more to his character than was previously thought. I mean, obviously he didn't just want to kill Miko outright, or he'd have stabbed her after he hit her with the lead sheet.

Looking back now, he doesn't appear entirely pleased when V and Roy interrupt Miko.....I don't know about you, but most CE characters I've seen look out for number one, they don't throw their lives away in this kind of situation.

Belkar's the last person I'd have thought would get character development

gotta watch out for that I guess :P

JazzManJim
2006-02-23, 01:56 AM
Was anyone else a bit bothered by Roy's "you're just mad beause you aren't part of our club" speech to Miko?

It seems to me that he completely missed the point of why Miko wanted to kill Belkar and just went toward the "because she's a bitch" explanation. I mean, V at least understands the whole "he may be a psychotic bastard, but he's OUR psychotis bastard" angle. I'm not quite sure that Roy sees that. I wonder if we just saw a titanic clash of two LG characters with completely different views of the world speaking right past each other.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 01:57 AM
Why does Shojo not rebuke Miko for her parting words? She says something terrible, and a word from her liege would have her thinking, perhaps changing. Leaving her "charged" with emotions like that has dangerous consequences, and is a neglection of duty.

yet he talks normally in his next bubble and stands up in the next one, without anyone casting healing on him.
his speech bubble is wiggly.

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 01:57 AM
I think their arguments were two ships passing in the proverbial night. Neither of them sees the viewpoint of the other.

Just my thought.

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 01:58 AM
I wanna throw a minmaxed char at her... so... badlly...

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 01:59 AM
I think that V is definitely Chaotic Neutral. Anybody suggesting he's good after he so blatantly refused to help the dirt farmers so that he could learn the secrets of the universe one day earlier than he would have otherwise is crazy. He may have been good back when the Evil Blight comic came around, but afterwards he went to neutral. And anybody who tampers with the fundamental laws of nature as much as V does can't be Lawful.

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 01:59 AM
I wanna throw a minmaxed char at her... so... badlly...

Drop Pun-Pun on her head! That would just be fun, if pointless. :P

Devils_Advocate
2006-02-23, 02:00 AM
BELKAR LIVES!

*kiss*

Our little psyco isn't going to be a hafling colored smear after all.


;D
It's looking a lot like he was never going to be.

I hadn't noticed in the previous comic, but Belkar's body appears to be tilted to the side, pretty much ideally positioned to quickly roll to his right.

Hmmmmm...

eof
2006-02-23, 02:00 AM
Others posted earlier but anyway: copy and paste into your URL bar if you want to have an interactive speech translation experience! ;)

javascript:var from = "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVW XYZ"; var to = "c*fdthel**mbd*rknyoui*sjgaC*FDTHEL**MBD*RKNYOUI*S JGA"; var mes = prompt("Enter text to decode:", "Rst azq'e tqmgowezqm kg, ws hge kg xtwe wzr efze rst'og z couyum lueaf zqd rsto efuyfw hssp cze uq efze zokso."); var mes = (mes == null ? "" : mes); var res=""; for(var i = 0; i < mes.length; i++) {var j = from.indexOf(mes.charAt(i)); res += (j == -1 ? mes.charAt(i) : to.charAt(j)); } if (res != "") alert(res);

JazzManJim
2006-02-23, 02:00 AM
Why does Shojo not rebuke Miko for her parting words? She says something terrible, and a word from her liege would have her thinking, perhaps changing. Leaving her "charged" with emotions like that has dangerous consequences, and is a neglection of duty.


Why does he not sharply rebuke her for taking on the whole Order right there in front of him? He "requests" that she go to her quarters? He openly commends her for doing her duty and notes how tough it was for her to do it?

I think Shojo agrees with her completely.

(edited to remove a possible mini-spoiler)

Winged One
2006-02-23, 02:00 AM
I loved every part of this strip. Loved Belkar's line at the beginning, loved V's speech, loved the wonderful party loyalty, loved Elan's innocent condemnation, loved Durkon's getting close to talking sense into Miko, loved Shojo stepping in(Miko's death would set off WFW54325), loved the way the Giant tastefully rebuked those of us who don't like Miko(myself included), and I especially loved {spoiler deleted by poster before posting}. Oh, and the punch line was good too. :) All in all, awsome comic.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 02:02 AM
I think that V is definitely Chaotic Neutral. Anybody suggesting he's good after he so blatantly refused to help the dirt farmers so that he could learn the secrets of the universe one day earlier than he would have otherwise is crazy. He may have been good back when the Evil Blight comic came around, but afterwards he went to neutral. And anybody who tampers with the fundamental laws of nature as much as V does can't be Lawful.
.......If you were human....

V refused did not refuse to help. She stated clearly that her objection was Miko Drafting her. ::)

The_Weirdo
2006-02-23, 02:02 AM
Okay, so now Miko rationalizes through "justice" a desire for REVENGE against a non-evil group - including, yes, Durkan, that tried to solve things peacefully, and being against her master.

Come on, people, believing she won't fall is like believing Belkar isn't evil by now...

Cirin
2006-02-23, 02:03 AM
Miko's words are quite close to what I would imagine a recurring EVIL villian saying...Miko's lost it, totally. She's blinded to her duty (deliver the OotS to Lord Shojo), she's blinded to justice (her duty to the gods), she doesn't care that the OotS have been acquitted, but merely by siding with him against her, which her Lord at least tacitly backed, she swore vengeance against them. She's clearly let her sense of vengeance and wrath blind her to good and duty, she's so self-assured in her Paladinhood that she's even indulging in a healthy dose of pride.

Durkon tried to reason with her to let there be no more blood spilled that day, and the gods were clear that it wasn't them who were to be held responsible for what happened, and she didn't care. She embodies Pride and Wrath.

I'm imagining this part of the strip will be soon called Miko: Making of a Blackguard. After the last two, I fully expect her to be a recurring villain one day as an ex-Paladin Blackguard with a vendetta against the OotS.

Although, while Miko has beat down the OotS twice, the second time was supposed to be a close fight, with her having a surprise round. With no surprise round, and her being seriously beaten down from a fight, against the OotS at full, may be enough to turn the tide. Miko seemed to have no doubts she could beat them any day, but again, pride goeth before the fall.

Of course, Belkar will now stand trial for the murder of the guard he killed to escape, but that's a story for another day (like Wed.)

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 02:05 AM
I think that V is definitely Chaotic Neutral. Anybody suggesting he's good after he so blatantly refused to help the dirt farmers so that he could learn the secrets of the universe one day earlier than he would have otherwise is crazy. He may have been good back when the Evil Blight comic came around, but afterwards he went to neutral. And anybody who tampers with the fundamental laws of nature as much as V does can't be Lawful.

I think ze is N, personally. But I don't see why this comic brings this out - zer actions were the actions of a good party member who hates Miko, nothing more or less.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:05 AM
Why does he not sharply rebuke her for taking on the whole Order right there in front of him? He "requests" that she go to her quarters? He openly commends her for doing her duty and notes how tough it was for her to do it?

I think Shojo agrees with her completely.

(edited to remove a possible mini-spoiler)
How disgusting. If that is true, and things aren't what they seem.... hmmmmm. I hope the plot moves, cause character development sure isn't happening for Miko or Belkar and no one else's is relevant.

Holy_Knight
2006-02-23, 02:08 AM
While I dislike Miko, her 'righteous anger' is zealotry, and not necessarily outside her alignment. If I might elaborate:

My favorite reocurring villain for my PCs was a paladin. Utterly lawful good, utterly devoted to his god and his liege. So much so, that when his god decreed that it would be for the greater good to torch the village of curse-pox-ridden peasants rather than risk the incurable disease spread across the countryside, he was there with torch in hand.

When his liege, who was prophecied to be vital to defeating the god's legendary foe come armageddon, lay dying, the paladin agreed to assist him in the rites necessary for him to achieve immortality via magical means - lichdom. Even to the point, finally, of committing suicide to power the rite when the PCs attempted to intervene.

And never did his needle fluctuate from LG.

Wow... seriously? I mean, that's not even remotely good. I would have had that paladin fall for not abandoning his god and liege (who had clearly both either fallen themselves or gone insane).

To go back to the comic, however, I think that Vaarsuvius was the first to act because he* had the greatest amount of dislike for Miko. None of them like her, but we've actually seen Vaarsuvius gloat over Miko's presumed death.

*Yes, I said "he". Gender ambiguity jokes aside, Vaarsuvius has always seemed to me to be clearly male.

Jothki
2006-02-23, 02:08 AM
I actually found the strip to be fairly unsatisfying. I was looking forward to seeing Miko fall, which she almost certainly would have done if it wasn't for the outside intervention. Now I'll be slightly on edge until the inevitable happens.

It's kind of like when someone tells you almost all of a joke but then walks away before telling you the punchline.

That's really my own problem, though. It kind of serves me right for getting too emotionally invested in a hypothetical plotline, instead of just sitting back and letting the story be told.

I do kind of feel sorry for Belkar, though.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-23, 02:10 AM
No one else's development matters? Bull hockey, sir.

In my opinion, if anything, Belkar and Miko have recently been getting entirely too much undue focus. It's like the other five OotSers are supporting characters in their own comic!

I hope after this, Miko cools her heels off-panel for a few arcs, while Belkar is given a more background role. Let's see some advancement in Roy's quest to restore his sword, Haley and Elan's romance, and Durkon's storied relationship with Hyilga please.

Krytha
2006-02-23, 02:10 AM
uh oh... I was hoping Miko would be punished and forced to travel with the OotS... but it looks more and more like blackguard territory...

I CURSE YOU, GREENHILT! I CURSE YOU UNTIL MY DYING BREATH!

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 02:10 AM
Yeah, poor Belkar got away without suffering any penalties. *world's smallest violin plays*

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 02:11 AM
I mean, obviously he didn't just want to kill Miko outright, or he'd have stabbed her after he hit her with the lead sheet.
I think it's because he just wanted to push her buttons, more than kill her. If she's dead, he can't taunt her.

JazzManJim
2006-02-23, 02:12 AM
How disgusting. If that is true, and things aren't what they seem.... hmmmmm. I hope the plot moves, cause character development sure isn't happening for Miko or Belkar and no one else's is relevant.



I can think of at least two characters whose development would be highly relevant to what might come to pass.

If nothing else, we might see a member or two move away from self-enrichment and toward a more "we have to save the world because we're heroes and that's waht heroes do" mentality.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 02:12 AM
Yeah, poor Belkar got away without suffering any penalties. *world's smallest violin plays*
He is going on trial. How the hell is that getting off scott free? >:(

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:14 AM
No one else's development matters? Bull hockey, sir.

In my opinion, if anything, Belkar and Miko have recently been getting entirely too much undue focus. It's like the other five OotSers are supporting characters in their own comic!

I hope after this, Miko cools her heels off-panel for a few arcs, while Belkar is given a more background role. Let's see some advancement in Roy's quest to restore his sword, Haley and Roy's romance, and Durkon's storied relationship with Hyelga please.
Failure to read correctly? check. I said no one else's chracter development was relevant, because the situation doesn't provide a feasible backdrop for it. The plot needs to move because putting in character development for someone else now would feel forced to me. Roy's sword quest isn't character development, I'd love to see some Haley-Elan(just not now) and I highly doubt Helga will re-enter the plotline anytime soon.




I can think of at least two characters whose development would be highly relevant to what might come to pass.

If nothing else, we might see a member or two move away from self-enrichment and toward a more "we have to save the world because we're heroes and that's waht heroes do" mentality.
That is not what I meant by character development. I meant strip(s) spent specifically on adding depth to a character while/by changing their attitudes, sorry if I was unclear.

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 02:14 AM
He is going on trial. How the hell is that getting off scott free? >:(
Ah, right. But does anybody believe he will honestly suffer any penalties? It's more than likely that the trial will be interrupted and he'd escape.

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 02:14 AM
*Yes, I said "he". Gender ambiguity jokes aside, Vaarsuvius has always seemed to me to be clearly male.

I tend to think of Vaarsuvius as female while just reading and not thinking of anything else. Weird at all that sometimes I identify with heirm? (That's a combination of words right there.)

Kish
2006-02-23, 02:15 AM
Does this mean that there is going to be another trial then for Belkar?

As a general note in respsonse to a lot of what I've read, keep in mind that we've never actually been definitively told that he is evil.

Yes we have.


Though his actions suggest he may be evil, Hayley's actions would also suggest that she's greedy—but the Giant put that to rest some time ago.
Hello? Haley is greedy. The fact that she wants to assemble 100,000 gold to save her father doesn't change the fact that she was a greedy thief long before he got imprisoned, and losing "her" dragon treasure goes right to her reptilian hind-brain in a way it doesn't to any of the rest of the Order..

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 02:16 AM
I tend to think of Vaarsuvius as female while just reading and not thinking of anything else. Weird at all that sometimes I identify with heirm? (That's a combination of words right there.)
I use ze and zer to refer to V, since they are gender neutral. ;D

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 02:16 AM
I've always thought of V as male. Arrogance and wordiness have always struck me as more masculine traits.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:18 AM
I've always thought of V as male. Arrogance and wordiness have always struck me as more masculine traits.
I've known a bunch of arrogant and wordy females. But this is not the place for this discussion....
On a completely different note: now you see the sword, now you don't! How DOES she do that?

fwiffo
2006-02-23, 02:18 AM
Character devopment is happening... This strip has more Miko character development than any other one I can think of. It is just not happening the way some people want it to happen.

My second favorite line is "Then he will be taken into custody and tried, lawfully, on those charges." This sentence would've worked just as well without the word "lawfully". But that word needed to be there as Shojo's gentle way of saying of "lawfully, as opposed to what you are doing".

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:20 AM
Character devopment is happening... This strip has more Miko character deveopment than any other one I can think of. It is just not happening the way some people want it to happen.


No, her character is not changing, but static. We just know more about her now, that's all.
Edit: Feh, I was thinking of something different than the actual definition of development. Oh well.

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 02:21 AM
I use ze and zer to refer to V, since they are gender neutral. ;D
Ooooooh, I thought those were typos, but I friggin' love it! Mind if I borrow?

Invariel
2006-02-23, 02:21 AM
There's just one thing that people generally forget when they read up on Blackguards; in order to become a Blackguard, a Paladin must make friendly contact with an Evil outsider.

Miko, so obviously set in her ways, obviously has not done so yet, and the only Evil outsider we've met in the comic thus far is Xykon, whom we haven't seen in quite a while.


So, for those of you who want so vehemently for Miko to return as a Blackguard, she's got to come across an Evil outsider, recognise it as such, not kill it (which could be considered 'associating' with it, which causes a loss of Paladin powers, and then gain a level (most likely without her Paladin abilities) to become a Blackguard. Possible, yes. But, for someone as honourbound as Miko, unlikely from what I've seen, especially considering how many people are lauding her for staying in character.

ElfLad
2006-02-23, 02:22 AM
I've known a bunch of arrogant and wordy females. But this is not the place for this discussion....
On a completely different note: now you see the sword, now you don't! How DOES she do that?

So do I, but I know more guys who are like that.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 02:23 AM
So do I, but I know more guys who are like that.
That doesn't make it a maculine trait.

Kish
2006-02-23, 02:23 AM
Woo-hoo!

Woo!

Satisfactory conclusion.

I now predict that Miko will never be seen again!

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque

I'm with Aaron. Entirely.

This one was great.

TheLastOfTheFallen
2006-02-23, 02:25 AM
Ooooooh, I thought those were typos, but I friggin' love it! Mind if I borrow?

I didn't create them, so go for it. :D

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-23, 02:25 AM
I actually agree. Even though he's supposed to be gender-neutral, there's just something.... very MALE about V. I don't know how to put it any more precisely than that.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro
2006-02-23, 02:27 AM
You want to know what I think?

I think Belkar should go Lawful Good, and follow in Miko's footsteps of being a bloodthirsty vengeful psycho. :)

Also, if I were the DM right now, and this were Forgotten Realms, Miko would be getting a visit from "Torm" right now, who tells her that Lord Shojo is corrupted and unworthy of deference, that only she knows what true justice is. Only "Torm" is really Cyric in disguise....

Riley_John_Gibbs
2006-02-23, 02:27 AM
It being put aside for a moment that I've got my tail between my legs (twice over—my comment is hereby formally withdrawn) for suggesting that maybe Belkar isn't evil...

I was hoping Miko would try to Smite Belkar but fail, then have Belkar be upset that the Smite Evil didn't work on him (i.e. he wishes that he is evil, but isn't, which would also explain why he didn't kill Miko while he had the chance).

The Giant
2006-02-23, 02:27 AM
No, her character is not changing, but static. We just know more about her now, that's all.

That's an opinion. I would argue that she's getting worse, which is—in fact—development. Before, she was merely abrasive and rude, and maybe a little too devoted to duty. Now, she's bordering on a complete psychotic break.

It's just not development in the direction you were hoping for. :P

Dugray
2006-02-23, 02:27 AM
Can we keep this to the great V Gender debate thread which is god knows how long at this point? Anyways, the comic is fabulous and I shivered at Miko's parting words. I'm loving all these double length comics spleee we're spoiled :D

Dugray
2006-02-23, 02:29 AM
That's an opinion. I would argue that she's getting worse, which is—in fact—development. Before, she was merely abrasive and rude, and maybe a little too devoted to duty. Now, she's bordering on a complete psychotic break.

It's just not development in the direction you were hoping for. :P


I think this is the path that was set out for her the moment she ended up meeting the OOTSers, to which I say good riddance. She wasn't exactly a very popular person within her own Paladin community so why should we like her?

The Giant
2006-02-23, 02:30 AM
Miko, so obviously set in her ways, obviously has not done so yet, and the only Evil outsider we've met in the comic thus far is Xykon, whom we haven't seen in quite a while.

Factually inaccurate. Xykon is not an evil outsider at all, he's evil undead. We have, in fact, met two evil outsiders (barring one-shot characters): Sabine, and any of the demon roaches.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-23, 02:31 AM
Giant, if you're still reading this thread, I have a bit of a proposition for you.... I'm going to buy a scanner REAL soon, and I'd like you to take a look at some of the artwork I do. If you like it, maybe, you could create a fanart section on the site? I'd love to submit my idea of what the OotS cast looks like in fully-rendered 3D. I actually doodle the OotS characters all the time (Roy and Miko for the most part, Durkon's the most difficult so naturally I draw him least. =p ) Thanks in advance.

Annalia
2006-02-23, 02:31 AM
I must say I like strips with Miko. Not because I like her that much (in fact, I don't) but because it creates conflict. And conflicts often mean jokes!

Haroth_Lawbane
2006-02-23, 02:32 AM
Sooo what you're saying giant.. Is that she's become Lawfull Gooder.? ;D

The Giant
2006-02-23, 02:33 AM
Giant, if you're still reading this thread, I have a bit of a proposition for you.... I'm going to buy a scanner REAL soon, and I'd like you to take a look at some of the artwork I do. If you like it, maybe, you could create a fanart section on the site? I'd love to submit my idea of what the OotS cast looks like in fully-rendered 3D. I actually doodle the OotS characters all the time (Roy and Miko for the most part, Durkon's the most difficult so naturally I draw him least. =p ) Thanks in advance.

There already IS a fanart section. Click on the Extras link under the comic. Of course, I don't update it very often, I have like 50 pieces to put there one of these days.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:34 AM
Hey, I'm going to open the proverbial can of worms here:
Why is loyalty more important than what someone does? Why should you help someone who is evil survive simply because they helped you in the past? Why is what someone has done for you more important than the greater good? I interpret loyalty in this kind of situation as giving someone the benefit of the doubt until you know the full story, but the OOTS knows of atrocities Belkar has commited, and prefer that he live either because they prefer him to Miko or because they think that loyalty is more important than the well-being of many innocent sentient beings. That is a skewed view of things. True, he was their friend, but why does that make him more important than his potential victims?


Dif topic: Why didn't Lord Shojo interrupt sooner? Letting things go so far and not chastizing Miko for her words are not good things... negligent, but I guess he is senile....

NovaNightmare
2006-02-23, 02:35 AM
V Rocks, Very cool intervention and with lots of words!

As for Miko contemplating revenge that kind of seems like a slip to a not so Good form of alignment, as it seems to be the premeditated part of what would be premeditated murder in my opinion if she ever went through with it.

Giant you have given us yet another possible tantalizing side plots to keep your fanatical readers coming back. Thank you

-NovaNighmare

Kamakazee_Gnome
2006-02-23, 02:35 AM
Even so, an attonement quest is in order... swearing to kill someone in cold blood... creepy. Reminds me of several stories... NWN comes to mind.

But then again, I'm clearly in the camp of "Give in to your anger, young Miko. Strike him down and take your place by my side!"

Hmmm, do Blackguards also have anything similar to the stick up the arse?

EDIT: An entire page while I was typing? :o

FireLance
2006-02-23, 02:36 AM
You know, I think Miko almost fell. V's scorching ray saved her. And yes, Belkar was trying to egg her into doing it. Look how disappointed he seemed in the panel where she got hit by the spell and dropped her katana.

Miko is Lawful Good. She's come close to committing chaotic and/or evil acts before, but she's always stopped or been stopped. Look at the number of times in this comic alone: she nearly killed a helpless opponent instead of bringing him in for trial, she nearly got into an unnecessary fight with a party of mostly good adventurers, she nearly (or so it is implied) disobeyed Lord Shojo.

I believe many people put paladins on a pedestal and hold them to impossible standards, even, or especially, those who dislike paladins in general. Yes, paladins should be held to high standards of behavior, but the gods know, paladins are human (or humanoid) too. Paladins can be narrow-minded, judgemental, bad-tempered, humorless, harsh, vengeful and nasty (Miko is probably all of these). Paladins have to be good, but they don't have to be nice.

Miko is without doubt one of the nastiest paladins I know, and has probably just gone through one of the most trying days in her life. She nearly crossed the line on three occasions. Twice, she was stopped. But at the last, she chose to do what was right instead of what she wanted. Give her credit for that, at least.

Jural
2006-02-23, 02:36 AM
The obvious question in this thread:

Why is Belkar urging Miko to attack him?

There are only a few answers posted so far (and all common theories, so no spolier), and all of them are a bit of a stretch!

1) Belkar is actually not evil and wants the satisfaction of Miko smiting him and realizing he isn't evil.

2) Belkar is antagonizing Miko until the end.

3) Belkar is attempting to get Miko to turn to evil by killing him.

The above 3 have major holes. Belkar is pretty clearly evil, he is whispering his lines (not much of a taunt!), and why would one imagine killing a murderer would make a person evil? No, Belkar's motives fall into another category, I would imagine... but what?

I won't post any spolier guesses, but I think the answer will be very interesting when it is uncovered :) Once again, Good job Sr. Giganto!

UPDATE: You know, I have to disagree with myself after thinking a moment. #) above is plausible, as Belkar is a helpless victim in the strip, and he has clearly been detained (no escape from that room, I' imagine). Striking him down in that situation could/should be considered evil. On first reading the comic, I didn't consider he was incapacitated- but if you imagine he was no longer a threat- it makes some sense.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:37 AM
That's an opinion. I would argue that she's getting worse, which is—in fact—development. Before, she was merely abrasive and rude, and maybe a little too devoted to duty. Now, she's bordering on a complete psychotic break.

It's just not development in the direction you were hoping for. :P
Oh, I thought that she was always this bad, and was simply fully revealed in this comic. Thanks then, I now know better. She seemed to be eager for blood in that end of Red mountain dungeon strip, so I assumed that her character was static Sorry.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 02:37 AM
Hey, I'm going to open the proverbial can of worms here:
Why is loyalty more important than what someone does? Why should you help someone who is evil survive simply because they helped you in the past? Why is what someone has done for you more important than the greater good? I interpret loyalty in this kind of situation as giving someone the benefit of the doubt until you know the full story, but the OOTS knows of atrocities Belkar has commited, and prefer that he live either because they prefer him to Miko or because they think that loyalty is more important than the well-being of many innocent sentient beings. That is a skewed view of things. True, he was their friend, but why does that make him more important than his potential victims?


Dif topic: Why didn't Lord Shojo interrupt sooner? Letting things go so far and not chastizing Miko for her words are not good things... negligent, but I guess he is senile....
I figure they believe he deserves punishment but not death. Its like if you have a freind do something horrible. You would never deny that he should be punished but you also wouldn't want him dead.

Ryshan Ynrith
2006-02-23, 02:38 AM
However, Miko did *not* swear to kill them in cold blood. She swore justice would be served, which could take many distinct forms.

Of course, she does *hope* that she gets to be the one to mete it out. ;)

FireLance
2006-02-23, 02:39 AM
That's an opinion. I would argue that she's getting worse, which is—in fact—development. Before, she was merely abrasive and rude, and maybe a little too devoted to duty. Now, she's bordering on a complete psychotic break.

It's just not development in the direction you were hoping for. :PAaah, Rich. Why did you have to go mess up my analysis with your pronouncement? :P

Pigeon
2006-02-23, 02:41 AM
It's a glitch in Illustrator. I can't figure out why, but Belkar's eyelids are turning transparent. I'm trying to fix it now.


I see. I was starting to think it was some new way of expressing some expression and I just didnt know what that was.


It's pretty sweet seeing Miko go pshyco. I love her reaction to when Belkar taunts more. How she glares at Shojo for a moment before she kneels again.

My favorite is how Elan actually looks like he's going to fight her in panel 16 instead of just singing. Plus he has had a ton of sweet 1-liners at the end of these court comics.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:42 AM
I figure they believe he deserves punishment but not death. Its like if you have a freind do something horrible. You would never deny that he should be punished but you also wouldn't want him dead.
No, but if, as in Belkar's case, death is a suitable penalty(remember, the OOTS has seen many many terrible things done by belkar) I would watch sadly from a distance if someone attempted to carry out that sentence. I guess that's my lawful side talking, and makes a bunch of problems....... Ah well.

Jaguar
2006-02-23, 02:42 AM
Okay, after reading all ten pages (and by the time I'm done with this, there'll probably be another ten to read), I have to first of all say, that after the anticipation of waiting from the end of the last comic, I was rather disappointed in the result that we came across here.

A great big action sequence, full of tension, suddenly gets completely defused by a scorching ray and a long list of speeches similar to the arguments put forward by the lawyer and the paraelemental at the end of the trial. I have to admit, I had to start over on the speeches by Vaarsuvius and Roy two or three times to finally focus on them long enough to read them.

I will admit that the second page got a little better, and I'm with others, that the final speech of Miko makes me wonder just how LG she really is - yes, she's angry, and I'm happy to give the benefit of the doubt at the moment and imagine that she could calm down and actually come back to her senses.

Next: In response to some of the things I've read here.

I do believe Belkar had some alternate plan to fulfil with Miko, aside from just tormenting her for as long as possible. There's too much focus on his face just to be thinking "Oh, he just wants to piss her off more" in that panel - not to mention that he's smiling about it. Then, when he speaks again, he's in the other mode of 'whisper' that has been used throughout the comic, the smaller-sized font which makes his speech seem weaker, where the larger text in the first panel makes it seem more convicted and determined.

I also wonder who the comments were really aimed at? Namely "You're not a member of the Order of the Stick, and never will be!" and "I'm a paladin, whether you like it or not"? The other characters? Or the readers? ;)

And in opposite opinion to someone who posted earlier, now that I realize that Haley actually has a cryptogram hidden in her text, I actually enjoyed figuring out the things she's said so far. I'm just annoyed that I didn't notice the first time, the "And fans of cryptograms" comment from Belkar when she first got afflicted with code-speak.

Babbling finished! ;) I think...

Annalia
2006-02-23, 02:43 AM
You know what I'm eager to see? How Belkar'll react to all this. He seems disappointed when the Scorching Rays hit but he doesn't say a word (without counting 'good idea') on the matter.

Haroth_Lawbane
2006-02-23, 02:44 AM
Hey, I'm going to open the proverbial can of worms here:
Why is loyalty more important than what someone does? Why should you help someone who is evil survive simply because they helped you in the past? Why is what someone has done for you more important than the greater good? I interpret loyalty in this kind of situation as giving someone the benefit of the doubt until you know the full story, but the OOTS knows of atrocities Belkar has commited, and prefer that he live either because they prefer him to Miko or because they think that loyalty is more important than the well-being of many innocent sentient beings. That is a skewed view of things. True, he was their friend, but why does that make him more important than his potential victims?


Because it's the good and moral thing to do. As Roy stated,Belkar has not done anything that has not betrayed the rest of the group and leaving him now would be to BETRAY Belkar. And last time I checked Betrayal is a trait you most often ascribe to villians and crooks and Roy is a hero.Not a Crook,also he is Lawfull, Lawfull people can betray people but they will honour a contract until something is done to unvalidate it,they can work towards this goal themselves forcing the contract to be unvalidated but they will not break the contract themselves. By this I mean Roy could try to trick Belkar into attacking them which would give Roy free reins to kill Belkar but he would not Betray Belkar. And to their Knowledge Belkar isen't a threat to the order and he can be handled. I figure that the Order will try to keep him on a short leesh and see to it that Belkar dosen't hurt anyone trying to conform Belkar into being a better person as any TRUE friend would. Yes Belkar is a freind of the order.

Dif topic: Why didn't Lord Shojo interrupt sooner? Letting things go so far and not chastizing Miko for her words are not good things... negligent, but I guess he is senile....[/quote]

Maybe he took a nap with his eyes open? His an old man. Acting takes time.

Piedmon_Sama
2006-02-23, 02:45 AM
There already IS a fanart section. Click on the Extras link under the comic. Of course, I don't update it very often, I have like 50 pieces to put there one of these days.

D'oh! I think I've been reading OotS for the better part of a year now and never noticed that. Thanks for pointing it out. You can expect some submissions from me down the pipeline, but I hope you don't mind if I post them on the forum too (just to be safe... I fully admit that when it comes to getting attention I happen to count myself an expert in the world's oldest profession...)

The Giant
2006-02-23, 02:46 AM
Oh, I thought that she was always this bad, and was simply fully revealed in this comic. Thanks then, I now know better. She seemed to be eager for blood in that end of Red mountain dungeon strip, so I assumed that her character was static Sorry.

In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding. Once she sees Durkon explains they are not evil, the bloodlust backs away. She doesn't like them, but she doesn't consider killing them and brings them back to trial. Belkar and the rest have now brought it back, and pushed it to the point of her wanting to kill Good and Neutral characters. She's been pushed beyond what had been a line she didn't cross.

For the record, by the way, Miko's final speech is not swearing revenge; it's more like promising that karma will come back and punish them, and hoping she gets to be there. As in, "I hope you all get found guilty of something and I get to be the one to execute you," not, "I'm going to kill you no matter what happens."

Euphemism
2006-02-23, 02:47 AM
Wow... seriously? I mean, that's not even remotely good. I would have had that paladin fall for not abandoning his god and liege (who had clearly both either fallen themselves or gone insane).

Good is a social construct. Do you sacrifice a hundred thousand people, or kill 500? Do you surrender a world to looming darkness, or do you ensure the light will continue to shine?

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:50 AM
Because it's the good and moral thing to do. As Roy stated,Belkar has not done anything that has not betrayed the rest of the group and leaving him now would be to BETRAY Belkar. And last time I checked Betrayal is a trait you most often ascribe to villians and crooks and Roy is a hero.Not a Crook,also he is Lawfull, Lawfull people can betray people but they will honour a contract until something is done to unvalidate it,they can work towards this goal themselves forcing the contract to be unvalidated but they will not break the contract themselves. By this I mean Roy could try to trick Belkar into attacking them which would give Roy free reins to kill Belkar but he would not Betray Belkar. And to their Knowledge Belkar isen't a threat to the order and he can be handled. I figure that the Order will try to keep him on a short leesh and see to it that Belkar dosen't hurt anyone trying to conform Belkar into being a better person as any TRUE friend would. Yes Belkar is a freind of the order.

Yup. Only thing I disagree with here is that to me Betrayal is active, not passive. Of COURSE Belkar is a friend of the Order. I'm glad that he lived. I just wondered why they intervened, but your explaination works. You win.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro
2006-02-23, 02:51 AM
Another angle to consider.

Shojo might have also stopped her, at least partially, because she surely would have been vanquished by the Order. Remember, she was quite wounded from her running battle with Belkar.

Maharrg
2006-02-23, 02:52 AM
ANOTHER TRIAL?

Annalia
2006-02-23, 02:52 AM
Yup. Only thing I disagree with here is that to me Betrayal is active, not passive. Of COURSE Belkar is a friend of the Order. I'm glad that he lived. I just wondered why they intervened, but your explaination works. You win.


I think that's more a point of view than a fact. Maybe to Roy, Betrayal is as much Passive as Active. It is to me, at least.

Jaguar
2006-02-23, 02:54 AM
ANOTHER TRAIL?

Anyone would think you thought this a bad thing ;) Trails are good!

Admittedly, I do hope we don't have to read through six pages of Belkar's trial

~ducks*

theKOT
2006-02-23, 02:55 AM
In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding. Once she sees Durkon explains they are not evil, the bloodlust backs away. She doesn't like them, but she doesn't consider killing them and brings them back to trial. Belkar and the rest have now brought it back, and pushed it to the point of her wanting to kill Good and Neutral characters. She's been pushed beyond what had been a line she didn't cross.

For the record, by the way, Miko's final speech is not swearing revenge; it's more like promising that karma will come back and punish them, and hoping she gets to be there. As in, "I hope you all get found guilty of something and I get to be the one to execute you," not, "I'm going to kill you no matter what happens."
Ah, but if Belkar had done something evil then and not blocked her detect spell and she had attempted to kill him AND the order had fought her AND lets say she was somehow stopped from fighting by Lord Shojo, she wouldn't have the same reaction? You already answered that question with your post, I just had thought otherwise. I was mistaken. She is a showoff then? I guess it fits, but this was not the Miko I had hoped was buried beneath a bitter unliked shell. Oh. Then we don't see Miko again (most likely) then why was she even the-oh, to make a point about paladins. K.

But you know Giant, I'm going to ignore what you just said and draw my own conclusions cause what you post isn't canon :P

Ryshan Ynrith
2006-02-23, 02:58 AM
To me, Belkar always seemed a bit like a mad dog kept on a leash: authority says he must be destroyed, but those that hold the leash say that they can keep him under control. Unfortunately, as this episode with the guard has shown, the Order can't always keep Belkar in check.

I find it odd that the Order is so willing to forgive Belkar his deeds just because he hasn't done such deeds to the Order yet. Roy seems to place loyalty above morals in Belkar's case, which will likely prove dangerous in the long run. Attaching yourself to a murderer(and being willing to attack a paladin to defend said murderer) does not seem an auspicious path.

Edited for minor typo.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 02:59 AM
Ah, but if Belkar had done something evil then and not blocked her detect spell and she had attempted to kill him AND the order had fought her AND lets say she was somehow stopped from fighting by Lord Shojo, she wouldn't have the same reaction? You already answered that question with your post, I just had thought otherwise. I was mistaken. She is a showoff then? I guess it fits, but this was not the Miko I had hoped was buried beneath a bitter unliked shell. Oh. Then we don't see Miko again (most likely) then why was she even the-oh, to make a point about paladins. K.

But you know Giant, I'm going to ignore what you just said and draw my own conclusions cause what you post isn't canon :P
Which ofcourse means Miko has alway been this crazy, Their was no network problem, Rich has never gotten sick or gone to a con and Belkar is LG ;D

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 03:01 AM
To me, Belkar always seemed a bit like a mad dog kept on a leash: authority says he must be destroyed, but those that hold the leash say that they can kept him under control. Unfortunately, as this episode with the guard has shown, the Order can't always keep Belkar in check.

I find it odd that the Order is so willing to forgive Belkar his deeds just because he hasn't done such deeds to the Order yet. Roy seems to place loyalty above morals in Belkar's case, which will likely prove dangerous in the long run. Attaching yourself to a murderer(and being willing to attack a paladin to defend said murderer) does not seem an auspicious path.
I still say that guard was an idiot and deserved to die. I mean come on! He gave him an openning a mile wide.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 03:03 AM
To me, Belkar always seemed a bit like a mad dog kept on a leash: authority says he must be destroyed, but those that hold the leash say that they can kept him under control. Unfortunately, as this episode with the guard has shown, the Order can't always keep Belkar in check.

I find it odd that the Order is so willing to forgive Belkar his deeds just because he hasn't done such deeds to the Order yet. Roy seems to place loyalty above morals in Belkar's case, which will likely prove dangerous in the long run. Attaching yourself to a murderer(and being willing to attack a paladin to defend said murderer) does not seem an auspicious path.
A much more eloquent and convincing version of what I tried to say. thank you.


Which ofcourse means Miko has alway been this crazy, Their was no network problem, Rich has never gotten sick or gone to a con and Belkar is LG ;D
Of course Belkar is LG! He hasn't tried to take of the world once! That's obeying a whole buncha laws all at once! And letting people not be crushed under your tyranny is plainly good! Those gotta count for something!
*Jedi hand wave* there never was any network problem....


Just to nit pick cause I'm obsessive, Drawing my own conclusions does not mean denying everything Rich has ever said. It is simply manifest truthiness. It's the Colbert Report all over again!

Jaguar
2006-02-23, 03:05 AM
To me, Belkar always seemed a bit like a mad dog kept on a leash: authority says he must be destroyed, but those that hold the leash say that they can keep him under control. Unfortunately, as this episode with the guard has shown, the Order can't always keep Belkar in check.

I find it odd that the Order is so willing to forgive Belkar his deeds just because he hasn't done such deeds to the Order yet. Roy seems to place loyalty above morals in Belkar's case, which will likely prove dangerous in the long run. Attaching yourself to a murderer(and being willing to attack a paladin to defend said murderer) does not seem an auspicious path.

Edited for minor typo.


Too which the OotS reply: "WEll, you took the leash away from our control. We can't keep him in check if you don't let us."

- motivation behind him being in another cell ignored, it's the same base argument.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 03:08 AM
Too which the OotS reply: "WEll, you took the leash away from our control. We can't keep him in check if you don't let us."

- motivation behind him being in another cell ignored, it's the same base argument.
So the OOTS is a specialist team that can control and contain Psychos? Cool! They need a new name like: The Order of the Leash or Orkin Pscho control or The Awesome Lawsome Possums!
Edit: happy 500th birthday strong bad!(obscure reference...)

Jefepato
2006-02-23, 03:09 AM
Good is a social construct.

In D&D it is not.

mbuna
2006-02-23, 03:14 AM
Long time lurker, new poster.

I just wanted to say:

A) Everyone who argues about character alignment in a comic should get a life.

B) 285 rocked. I couldn't figure out how Rich would appease both Belkar and Miko fans... awesome.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 03:15 AM
Long time lurker, new poster.

I just wanted to say:

A) Everyone who argues about character alignment in a comic should get a life.

B) 285 rocked. I couldn't figure out how Rich would appease both Belkar and Miko fans... awesome.
Insulting 95% of the board isn't the way to make freinds. :( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Skyserpent
2006-02-23, 03:15 AM
Hmm... So is Miko done? It's a real shame... she was an interesting catalyst for the characters to unite against... one that they all didn't like, (Except Durkon... but whatever) Unlike Xykon which is a more particular nemesis of Roy. or Nale for Elan...

theKOT
2006-02-23, 03:15 AM
Hmm... So is Miko done? It's a real shame... she was an interesting catalyst for the characters to unite against... one that they all didn't like, (Except Durkon... but whatever) Unlike Xykon which is a more particular nemesis of Roy. or Nale for Elan...
Seems that way. Real shame, but the Giant will do what he wants. Hopefully there will be a new character that intrigues me as much as Miko did. The intrigue was really what got me on these boards in the first place, though I like the strip with or without that element.


By the way, the Giant reused almost no images for this one. That might be part of the reason it took a while(other than the network thing that never happened)

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 03:15 AM
Hmm... So is Miko done? It's a real shame... she was an interesting catalyst for the characters to unite against... one that they all didn't like, (Except Durkon... but whatever) Unlike Xykon which is a more particular nemesis of Roy. or Nale for Elan...
Oh we will see her again, I'm sure.

Jaguar
2006-02-23, 03:16 AM
So the OOTS is a specialist team that can control and contain Psychos? Cool! They need a new name like: The Order of the Leash or Orkin Pscho control or The Awesome Lawsome Possums!
Edit: happy 500th birthday strong bad!(obscure reference...)

I was utilizing the same argument from the previous post. In other words, if the authorities are willing to accept that yes, they can keep him under reasonable control, then they only have themselves to blame for taking him out from under that controlling influence :P

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 03:16 AM
By the way, the Giant reused almost no images for this one. That might be part of the reason it took a while(other than the network thing that never happened)
How can you tell? Did you go back and see if any of these had apeared before?

PhoeKun
2006-02-23, 03:17 AM
Long time lurker, new poster.

I just wanted to say:

A) Everyone who argues about character alignment in a comic should get a life.


I had one, but it was boring, so I switched to gaming and arguing about comics. I've never regretted it. :P

theKOT
2006-02-23, 03:20 AM
How can you tell? Did you go back and see if any of these had apeared before?
Nah, it just seemed like he made a lot more new images than sometimes... but further inspection reveals otherwise. Meh, I'm tired. gimme a break!


Oh we will see her again, I'm sure.
I can't see a circumstance for that, but it is possible... care to post where/when/why? In a different thread if necessary.

Kish
2006-02-23, 03:22 AM
The Order nearly came apart when Xykon supposedly died. If Roy's sword hadn't been broken, they would have gone their separate ways--two members of the Order only stayed even long enough to get his sword fixed because he lied to them. Belkar also actually tried to kill Elan. Then when Elan was kidnapped, Roy wanted to leave him behind, and was willing to leave the entire party behind with him. Later, Haley threatened to run out on the group, and (much later) Elan expressed a desire to leave Belkar to die.

For the Order, loyalty is the point of this denouement. They're finally an adventuring group, instead of Roy and his hirelings who don't like each other much. They're no longer held together with fraying cobwebs. Of course, Miko is absolutely correct that Roy chose loyalty over good, and that's not going to be without consequences. The next dozen innocent people who find themselves in a position where their deaths at Belkar's hands can be amusing will pay the price for her being prevented from killing Belkar. Considering Roy's mental ability scores, he presumably has some inkling of how inadequate his control over Belkar is--that Belkar has already killed surrendering goblins and innocent barbarians. I'm sure all the Order would be much more comfortable* if Miko had left with the words EVIL written on her forehead as clearly as they are on Xykon's and Belkar's, instead of reasserting that she is still a paladin. But...They don't get what they want. She doesn't get what she wants. I, on the other hand, just loved this one.

Thanks, Giant.

*Of course, not including Belkar, who is immune to moral concerns of any sort.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-02-23, 03:23 AM
*in wafts a little black raincloud...*

The comics was very interesting, and though it probably speaks more about me than anything, I feel myself grinning in anticipation as she begins to give in to the Dark Side (this is completely unlike me, but I guess its because now I have something I can finally point to and say 'THIS is why I don't like her' instead of just having a nameless but intense irritation against Miko sinceshe first graced the plot).

However, for reasons I can't quite place, I found today's strip a bit of a let down. Just came across as unsatsifying and anticlimactic. Not downing it, just... didn't click with me in the least unlike most (especially the last one, that was a good'un).

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:26 AM
But remember, just because roy has good int, doesn't mean he's omnipotent. Knowing that he had done those two things would be severe meta-gaming. Roy wasn't even there when he killed the differently-abled barbarians.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 03:27 AM
The Order nearly came apart when Xykon supposedly died. If Roy's sword hadn't been broken, they would have gone their separate ways--two members of the Order only stayed even long enough to get his sword fixed because he lied to them. Belkar also actually tried to kill Elan. Then when Elan was kidnapped, Roy wanted to leave him behind, and was willing to leave the entire party behind with him. Later, Haley threatened to run out on the group, and (much later) Elan expressed a desire to leave Belkar to die.

For the Order, loyalty is the point of this denouement. They're finally an adventuring group, instead of Roy and his hirelings who don't like each other much. They're no longer held together with fraying cobwebs. Of course, Miko is absolutely correct that Roy chose loyalty over good, and that's not going to be without consequences. The next dozen innocent people who find themselves in a position where their deaths at Belkar's hands can be amusing will pay the price for her being prevented from killing Belkar. Considering Roy's mental ability scores, he presumably has some inkling of how inadequate his control over Belkar is--that Belkar has already killed surrendering goblins and innocent barbarians. I'm sure all the Order would be much more comfortable* if Miko had left with the words EVIL written on her forehead as clearly as they are on Xykon's and Belkar's, instead of reasserting that she is still a paladin. But...They don't get what they want. She doesn't get what she wants. I, on the other hand, just loved this one.

Thanks, Giant.

*Of course, not including Belkar, who is immune to moral concerns of any sort.
Very good observation. When loyalty is more important to you than the lives of innocents, are you still LG? Couldn't that be an evil act? I guess one act does not a class shift make, but this was a very important decision... The more the shock of Miko's words wears off, the more I enjoy this comic. Very well crafted, answers questions while raising them... I can't wait for friday!!!

But remember, just because roy has good int, doesn't mean he's omnipotent. Knowing that he had done those two things would be severe meta-gaming. Roy wasn't even there when he killed the differently-abled barbarians.
But he was there for gobbos, and ignores a lot of things Belkar does. Roy doesn't even rebuke Belkar for throwing a dagger at him, he jsut lets it slide... comedy's sake, I guess, but to much free rein is given to Belkar.

Jibar
2006-02-23, 03:28 AM
This just made me wonder,
Does V man carry a weapon?
If he doesn't, what are they going to do if they get attacked while preparing spells?

slowly_insane
2006-02-23, 03:30 AM
Boy, I leave for six hours and I have fourteen (probably fifteen or sixteen by the time I'm done typing) pages of comments to read through.
(whoops, I was wrong! guess it's slacking off a bit)
If nothing else, the debate engendered by this single comic proves that it is a *most excellent* comic. Thank you, Giant!

I think Miko's speech was more "you'll get what you deserve" than "I'll get you", and I loved her expression while she was saying it, gritting her teeth in an effort to keep control of herself. Hysterical! And my favorite part was Haley's comments. Great comic all around.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 03:32 AM
This just made me wonder,
Does V man carry a weapon?
If he doesn't, what are they going to do if they get attacked while preparing spells?

I don't know. I'm tempted to say no. She seems so pridful of her magic. She may feal that carrying a weapon means her magic isn't strong enough. However she also is prideful of her Race, which get natural weapon profiecency. So that seems like ignoring part of her Elfness.....

Lloyd
2006-02-23, 03:35 AM
Yay for another double length comic!

Yay for Belkar egging Miko on, just like I knew he would!

Yay for V and the buch stepping in to stop Miko!

Boo for Shojo for Stopping Miko from having her rear end handed to her like she deserves!

Another great strip, Giant! Thanks a bunch!

titan_monarch
2006-02-23, 03:35 AM
Hey, I wonder if Miko's going to be the OotS's next major enemy after Xykon... her last few lines certainly sounded like a recurring-villain-swearing-revenge thing. A bit like the chimera Trigak whom Belkar killed back in comic #21.

"Belkar! He was supposed to get away! He was obviously supposed to be a recurring villain! I mean, he had a NAME! And he was in the middle of swearing to get us and our little dog, too. It's pretty clear he was going to come back."

Haley's statement is also true of Miko in every way. :o

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:36 AM
Vaarsuvius could pick up a quarterstaff and whack with it. But the spells one can cast deal on average more than a quarterstaff can, and Vaarsuvius most likely has massive strength penalties. Anyway, Ignorant Loyalty would not cause an alignment shift. And why the hell doesn't roy use at least a decent sword! He had the chance... What an idiot... Improvised weapons suck! Take levels in drunken master if you're going to do that! Heh... Um... Yeah. Belkar has proved his "loyalty" by not killing them multiple times, and thus has been rendered a proper and essential part of the team, despite being useless at what he was hired in the first place to do.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 03:38 AM
Vaarsuvius could pick up a quarterstaff and whack with it. But the spells one can cast deal on average more than a quarterstaff can, and Vaarsuvius most likely has massive strength penalties. Anyway, Ignorant Loyalty would not cause an alignment shift. And why the hell doesn't roy use at least a decent sword! He had the chance... What an idiot... Improvised weapons suck! Take levels in drunken master if you're going to do that! Heh... Um... Yeah. Belkar has proved his "loyalty" by not killing them multiple times, and thus has been rendered a proper and essential part of the team, despite being useless at what he was hired in the first place to do.
But I would discribe him as 2nd or third strongest in a fight. Considering he can't use his spells that pretty ggod.

theKOT
2006-02-23, 03:38 AM
Hey, I wonder if Miko's going to be the OotS's next major enemy after Xykon... her last few lines certainly sounded like a recurring-villain-swearing-revenge thing. A bit like the chimera Trigak whom Belkar killed back in comic #21.

Just to try to keep this from becoming the next Belkar alignment thingy: here (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1140671714 ;start=173)

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:39 AM
What's the damage from a dagger of his? 1d2? 1d4 at most. Even though that's not the issue, if there was no comedy, why would we read the strip?

Ryshan Ynrith
2006-02-23, 03:40 AM
I would hardly call Roy's loyalty ignorant. He knew when he hired Belkar that the halfling wanted to escape town because he was being persued. He saw Belkar be totally unaffected by Unholy Blight. He saw Belkar attempt to kill one of his own teammates at least once. With his formidable intelligence, I highly doubt that Roy doesn't know what kind of person Belkar is.

Publius
2006-02-23, 03:41 AM
I suspect that Miko was very lucky that Lord Shojo intervened this time, considering that this time:

1. Miko is horribly wounded (in addition to her Belkar-inflicted wounds, V's Scorching Ray does 12d6 fire damage)

2. Miko doesn't have surprise. The OotS is ready for her, and apparently surprise was instrumental in the last fight.

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:42 AM
My personal measurement would be.
1)Miko (the minmaxed one.)
2)Haley (as long as she uses a melee weapon, sneak attack really hurts at higher levels.)
3)Vaarsuvius (fireballs. hurt. Magic missles. hurt.)
4)Belkar. (Stabbity stabbity. Need I say more?)
5)Roy (improvised weapon, dammit!)
6)Elan. (erm. yeah.)

Ryshan Ynrith
2006-02-23, 03:44 AM
Of course, this time Miko has the entire Sapphire Guard and a being of Pure Law and Good possibly backing her, as fighting a paladin (even an unpopular paladin) is not the way to get on such people's good sides.

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:44 AM
He doesn't know about the Barbarians and Goblins, that's what I mean. And he mentions he knows that he's evil, but not to what extent. Which makes it an easy issue for me. I'm not willing to argue. I have work to do, and that would take time. Precious time.

mbuna
2006-02-23, 03:45 AM
Insulting 95% of the board isn't the way to make freinds. :( >:( >:( >:( >:(

Ah, but I just the need the name recognition now. I'll earn friends with my charming wit and sparkling personality later. ;)

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:46 AM
I agree with you. I have no life. Now, moving on?

Delgarde
2006-02-23, 03:49 AM
And why the hell doesn't roy use at least a decent sword! He had the chance... What an idiot... Improvised weapons suck!

Actually, the penalties for improvised weapons don't apply to Roy, since his current weapon of choice is a greatclub - which while a very crude and easily made weapon, doesn't count as improvised. So there's no real benefit in getting a longsword or something, since the club already does d10 damage.

That said, he *is* penalised by not being able to use any of his greatsword-specific feats, e.g weapon focus and specialisation. He'll be a lot more effective once he gets himself a new one.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 03:49 AM
My personal measurement would be.
1)Miko (the minmaxed one.)
2)Haley (as long as she uses a melee weapon, sneak attack really hurts at higher levels.)
3)Vaarsuvius (fireballs. hurt. Magic missles. hurt.)
4)Belkar. (Stabbity stabbity. Need I say more?)
5)Roy (improvised weapon, dammit!)
6)Elan. (erm. yeah.)



My list(when at full strength and doing what they normaly would.

Miko
Roy
Belkar and V
Haley
Elan

Ofcourse depeding on who they are fightiing they can be much better(Elan kicking Nales ass)

Methuselah_Amakiir
2006-02-23, 03:51 AM
It's a good thing Miko was stopped, or it would be a Star Wars flashback... the hero (anakin) gets lost in passionate battle, and takes a step towards the dark side. Miko's too honorable to do that, though, but she threatened the Order in the middle of a court case, so I dunno...

Blackeagle
2006-02-23, 03:51 AM
You can't understand me, so let me just say that you're a frigid bitch and your thighs look fat in that armor.

How can her thighs look fat? After all, It's a friggin' stick figure comic (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=229).

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:51 AM
It is improvised, technically. But I'll digress. He should have taken the enchanted sword, but with his high int, does he? No! He can't keep his ancestral weapon while carrying another sword around. Jeez, haven't they heard of aurorum?

mbuna
2006-02-23, 03:52 AM
Oh, please. You're always penalized for an improvised weapon. Just because a man can swing a club doesnts mean he can swing a candlestick or a broken doorframe!

I never said I had a life either! :)

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:54 AM
At full strength, Roy will hit, but still won't do as much as the wizard or cleric, which incidentally, I forgot. He didn't do anything anyway. But doing as they normally would instantly lowers haley by two or three due to her using a dumbass bow.
1)v
2)d
3)belkar
4)roy
5)haley

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 03:56 AM
Drunken master gets rid of most of the penalties. And gives you the ability to use mundane things in interesting ways, thus making play much more fun.

Squall83
2006-02-23, 04:00 AM
Woohoo! What a great strip!

Now Miko is really accumulating sins like bloodlust and praying to the gods that she may kill Belkar for her own satisfaction. ^^

If she doesn't get her act together soon she'll really lose her powers (which I believe won't happen).

If she had fought this time she'd DEFINITELY have lost because
- she's low on hitpoints
- she doesn't have windstriker
- she doesn't have surprise
- she's flanked by Roy and Elan from the beginning
- Elan wants to fight seriously this time, too.
- Durkon will help this time

Kish
2006-02-23, 04:04 AM
But remember, just because roy has good int, doesn't mean he's omnipotent. Knowing that he had done those two things would be severe meta-gaming. Roy wasn't even there when he killed the differently-abled barbarians.
That Belkar did those particular things? Yes.

That Belkar is dangerous whenever he's not being directly supervised--something Roy can't do adequately while doing other things, like fighting? Extremely elementary deduction--so elementary that I'd look askance at a player who claimed his Intelligence 8 character couldn't put it together. Of course, maybe I'm just an evil bastard DM.

Chlodwig
2006-02-23, 04:06 AM
So on the List of antagonists we now have:

- Xykon CE Lich
- linear Guild NE to CE they need sombody to be opposite to belkar though and that would need to be somebody good. :)
- Miko LG paladin

Having somebody Lawful Good as an antagonist for a (mostly) good aligned group is fun though. :)

mbuna
2006-02-23, 04:07 AM
At full strength, Roy will hit, but still won't do as much as the wizard or cleric, which incidentally, I forgot. He didn't do anything anyway. But doing as they normally would instantly lowers haley by two or three due to her using a dumbass bow.
1)v
2)d
3)belkar
4)roy
5)haley


If you're talking single round damage in the first fight of the day.

A good dumbass bow-user can out-offense any character in the party over an entire day's worth of encounters, and still just be a lock-picking, trap-finding, keeping the party from dying utility character. :)

mbuna
2006-02-23, 04:09 AM
So on the List of antagonists we now have:

Having somebody Lawful Good as an antagonist for a (mostly) good aligned group is fun though. :)

Agreed. Put away the hack 'n' slash and let the RP commence!

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 04:10 AM
Annoying as hell though. Couldn't use touch of golden ice against a rogue archon who was bound to a gate. We had to kill him, but he was still trying to kill us. Almost disentegrated me, but I rolled exactly 17 and made it, while the poor druid... well... yeah. He was true ress'd as a plot device by the god whose archon it was. Unfortunately, he now has the equivalent of a forced vow of obedience. I'm taking levels of apostle so I can counteract them now...

Sebastian
2006-02-23, 04:10 AM
Opinion: I don't think loyalty is a quality worth forgiving all faults for. I'm glad Belkar lives to stab another day, but I had hoped for Miko to change. To become a character that would move on and learn and develop. This strip made me sad. I hope the plot picks up... because character development just lost a lot of my interest.



Oh,Miko changed, make no mistake, she only changed for worse. I'm no Miko's lover and even I was not expecting such and harsh reaction.
I am the only one that think that Miko is implicitly accusing Lord Shoio and all her fellow paladin (to not mention the extraplanar being) to helping Evil with this decision?

about that thing about joining the linear guild, I think that it is probable, Miko is exactly the kind of naive paladin that could fall for Nale's guile. also I think you should have put it as a spoiler, Gemesis018.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 04:12 AM
If you're talking single round damage in the first fight of the day.

A good dumbass bow-user can out-offense any character in the party over an entire day's worth of encounters, and still just be a lock-picking, trap-finding, keeping the party from dying utility character. :)
I don't know about him but I was think how well over all he does in the fight. Not just one round. Thats why V is low on my list. She can deal out alot of pain but in the end others can do slightly less constantly.

Gri
2006-02-23, 04:12 AM
Uh, didnt anyone else see that Miko hesitated?

Eon_Omega
2006-02-23, 04:12 AM
Annoying as hell though. Couldn't use touch of golden ice against a rogue archon who was bound to a gate. We had to kill him, but he was still trying to kill us. Almost disentegrated me, but I rolled exactly 17 and made it, while the poor druid... well... yeah. He was true ress'd as a plot device by the god whose archon it was. Unfortunately, he now has the equivalent of a forced vow of obedience. I'm taking levels of apostle so I can counteract them now...

tyricm
2006-02-23, 04:18 AM
sigh...

another cryptic haley bubble. this is getting old Giant, i dont expect to jump in the forums each time haley says something so that i can read the translation.

if u still insist her of speaking in code, then at least just write at the bottom of the comic what she spoke. It really is being severly overused.

I dunno, a bunch of us are having fun translating what she says.

I had it figured out after 15 minutes.

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 04:19 AM
I dunno, a bunch of us are having fun translating what she says.

I had it figured out after 15 minutes.


Some people have trouble understanding that the compliant is somethime just them.

Oorlof
2006-02-23, 04:23 AM
Ok, so, right, should've stayed awake a bit longer to see the comic. Then I wake up, and suddenly there's 16 pages of comic discussion already happened :o

Anyways. Belkar lives! Woo!
Miko still a paladin! Ehrm. Weird. What *does* it take to make her Fall? The whole "I am a paladin whether any of you like it or not" sounds a bit like "I am a paladin because I say so". Thought the gods of G and L had a say in it, but hey, Mike[1] seems to be above those petty concerns. Or maybe the gods don't care?

Whatever. Belkar lives, and that's good enough for me. Better yet, he was goading Mike into attacking him and, I presume, Falling for it. Even better still, he lives because the Order stood up for him and because Shojo pulled Mike's leash in time.

[spoiler or prediction]

Now, mr. Giant, can we pleeeeeease skip another comic of courtroom drama, send the Order on a penance quest to make up for the killed guard and maybe interact with Xykon and the Linear Guild again? Whatever you do, please please please don't draw Mike ever again. So through with that boring character.

[/s/p]


[1] Although that was an honest typo I'm going to make it my preferred spelling right now!

Delgarde
2006-02-23, 04:24 AM
Oh, please. You're always penalized for an improvised weapon.

Yeah, but what's an improvised weapon? A club is nothing more than a big chunk of wood, maybe with some nails in it. It doesn't have a price listed in the PHB because, well, they grow on trees. A greatclub costs a few gp, presumably the price of bigger nails.

Personally, I'd not penalise anyone for using an improvised weapon if what they have is basically a club or staff. Hitting someone with a chair? Yeah, that's improvised. Wielding a broken-off table leg? Nah, close enough to be a club, and even a wizard knows how to use one of those.

mbuna
2006-02-23, 04:25 AM
Some people have trouble understanding that the compliant is somethime just them.

What's half the fun for some is a valid complaint for others. Nobody wants to miss a good joke even if it's not necessary for the story arc.

Ghull_Ka
2006-02-23, 04:27 AM
What struck me the most was panel #3.

Look at Miko. She's shaking. She's so torn just then, hesitating, filled with fury and righteousness and wrath, barely holding onto the goodness inside her. Not doing exactly what she wants to do and striking him down because she knows it is wrong.

Breathtaking. I adore her. I hope she recovers from this all, I really do, she has so much depth and potential. I'm eagerly awaitng further strips with her and watching her grow.

Giant, I don't know if you're still reading this thread, and I don't know if you'll pay much attention to my post, but please do. I want to tell you,

Bravo.

Tor_Libram
2006-02-23, 04:28 AM
Oh, and Belkar had her right where he wanted her. "Do it... c'mon, do it..."

I wonder why, though? ???

Apologies if this has been answered in the intervening pages, but:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206 He says "...there's a good chance that if she associates with me, she'll lose all of her paladin powers... and that would be just too funny not to try." All the motive Belkar ever needs, IMO. ;)

Nightmarenny
2006-02-23, 04:30 AM
Apologies if this has been answered in the intervening pages, but:

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=206 He says "...there's a good chance that associating with someone like me will mean that she'll lose her paladin powers... and that would be too funny not to try." All the motive Belkar ever needs, IMO. ;)
I stand by my "Being a bastard to the end" arguement.

Tor_Libram
2006-02-23, 04:31 AM
Pretty much what I said, but with less evidence. ;D

mbuna
2006-02-23, 04:33 AM
Yeah, but what's an improvised weapon? A club is nothing more than a big chunk of wood, maybe with some nails in it. It doesn't have a price listed in the PHB because, well, they grow on trees. A greatclub costs a few gp, presumably the price of bigger nails.

Personally, I'd not penalise anyone for using an improvised weapon if what they have is basically a club or staff. Hitting someone with a chair? Yeah, that's improvised. Wielding a broken-off table leg? Nah, close enough to be a club, and even a wizard knows how to use one of those.

I'll eat some crow and admit to jumping into the middle of that conversation without seeing the start of it. Roy's club (which he got back after the trial) is not an improvised weapon. If he'd picked up Mr. Scruffy and started swinging, that would be another story (one we will see in the inevitable OotS fan fiction, I'm sure.)

Oorlof
2006-02-23, 04:38 AM
What struck me the most was panel #3.

Look at Miko. She's shaking. She's so torn just then, hesitating, filled with fury and righteousness and wrath, barely holding onto the goodness insider her. Not doing exactly what she wants to do and striking him down because she knows it is wrong.

Odd. I just interpreted those two little lines as indicating Mike was raising her swordarm for a killing blow. Bullet-time done for drama and all that. YOotSMV...

Chronomancer
2006-02-23, 04:42 AM
Great strip!

And finally Miko gets "punished" for her wrong ways by her own Lord. Oh the Joy, oh the fun! ;D

Giant, I'd really like to hug you right now. ;)


Belkar go! Evil little genius.
V go! Show them the power of arcane arts.
Roy go! That's a true groupleader.
Elan go! More funny "one-liners"!
Haley... well, nothing really special here but go anyways. ;D

Miko... Back to your room, bad doggy! No acting on your own! Hush! Be the dumb tool you deserve to be!


That strip really made me happy. :D

Maxymiuk
2006-02-23, 04:46 AM
When the world holds its breath...

As the blade hangs in that final moment before its inevitable descent...

Because a main character is about to die...


Those first three panels made the comic for me. ;D

Sebastian
2006-02-23, 04:47 AM
There's just one thing that people generally forget when they read up on Blackguards; in order to become a Blackguard, a Paladin must make friendly contact with an Evil outsider.

Miko, so obviously set in her ways, obviously has not done so yet, and the only Evil outsider we've met in the comic thus far is Xykon, whom we haven't seen in quite a while.


spoiler was here

Actually we have meet another evil outsider, now the name don't came to me, but Nale's "girlfriend" should qualify. And all that is necessary for Miko to not kill her is a simple Undetectable Alignement spell.

Coldwind
2006-02-23, 04:49 AM
Yes, I thought it before in one of my post:
Miko's official order was getting Belkar to the court, not killing him in front of the court. Also, Belkar was about to achieve success if Miko did not eat a scorching ray to her back.

We can see that Miko's thinking about revenge, and that's not something about paladinhood. She somewhat fall, she is shaking and looks mad and also tried to defeat OotS for the third time, while in a trial.

Well, Belkar still lives, OotS is now a team again.