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SangoProduction
2020-04-18, 06:50 AM
I've done ratings reviews of other SoP classes that were just pretty bad (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609834-Building-Better-Beast-Boys-(SoP))- or at least, had bad/irrelevant options (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610130-Hedging-out-the-Competition-(SoP)) available to them. This time, I'm rating the Eliciter. It is a decidedly good class, with a superb specialization. If you're going Mind sphere, you are at least going to dip Eliciter. Unless the sphere pickup was more of a "just in case" thing than something you expect to regularly use, I guess. It's not a bad class, nor one that requires a huge amount of decision making, but I am bored, and without work, so I'm doing this.


Ranking system:
(S) Super: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.

Do note that everything in the class basically relies on being able to mentally affect targets. This makes everything strong against brutes that are not mindless, weak against casters, and useless against the mindless. Since this applies to basically everything the class does, I'm baking in the situation of "You can be relevant" to all of the ratings. (Note: You might want to pick up a Destructive Blast just in case. You can even take shape / type focus drawbacks if you want.)

Class features Mid-Casting (B): Gains caster levels and talents at 3/4 the rate of full casters. Good thing you only need one sphere. Also casts on Charisma, unless you had a different casting modifier earlier. But this is a face class.
Enchanter (S++): A scaling bonus to Mind sphere DC, and most of the face skills, and sets your CL with Mind sphere to full. It doesn't scale quickly, but even at level one, it's worth 4 bonus caster levels in save DC, and it's an unnamed bonus so it stacks with everything.
Hypnotism (G): Basically a slightly less supportive Bardic Performance. But is limited by uses, rather than rounds. So half dozen one, and 6 the other. It gets pretty cool later on. Nothing to write home about.
Emotions (?): These will be judged on their own. Generally, they are lesser Mind sphere powers.
Defensive empathy (B-G): Takes Enchanter bonus and grants it to the remaining face skill, as well as to saves against certain enchantment effects. Thematically fitting. Not overall the most useful nor needed ability ever.
Convincing (S): Take 10 on face skills, freely. As a face class, that's really good. Then take 20 once per day, with no added time. Which can mean something slightly different than the intended: "don't roll, just have a 20," but if your DM doesn't interpret it as what a standard take 20 is, then this basically guarantees a face roll every in-game day.
Link (B-G): Definitely wouldn't argue with getting the ability to telepathically communicate to a select range of creatures affected by your mind powers. But it comes in so late, with the list of potential targets so small, and the benefit is just speaking in a way that others don't know you're doing it.
Domination (G): A once per day Create Meat Puppet. It's cool that you only lose your first meat puppet if you *successfully* use this on another, more powerful potential puppet. Yeah, that's all there is to say. I mean, aside from any moral compunctions about draining their minds so that they only care about obeying you to the exclusion of everything that isn't biologically necessary.

EmotionsAversion (G-S): You know how Apathy can stall fights? Well, this stalls fights harder, for less investment. It doesn't completely stop them from acting, but the point is that you stop them from fighting. Doesn't work against healers. And it's not a fear effect.
Minor (G-S): Turns the touched target in to a angsty teenager who doesn't want to be around anyone, as well as a pacifist. For 1 round, but you only spent one standard action.
Lesser (G-S): Now it lasts 2 rounds.
Greater (G): An aura that makes those inside unable to attack you, or even move in to your threatened area. It does mean you need to now chase them down to afflict them with the bad touch, but hey.
Master (G-S): Now it lasts 3 rounds.

Fear (G-S): It starts off good, and only gets bet- OK, well, most of it is better. Just wait until 11th level, and then take Extra Emotion to upgrade past, without wallowing in, the Greater phase for longer than necessary.
Minor (G): For a standard action touch, force them to flee for a round, if they fail a save. Not bad. Taken with an archetype, it's even better, but it's good on its own.
Lesser (G-S): For 1/2 level rounds, they are also shaken, regardless of saving. Presumably, this does not stack with the initial touch.
Greater (N-B): Once per day, immediate action, that requires having hit an already "scared" target in melee. If you do all that nonsense, you get to add +2d6 damage, and gain that as a shield. Woo...
Master (S+): Upgrades to panicked...for multiple rounds. Many rounds if you built your character correctly.

Love (G-S): The duration is pretty short, but it's a face emotion for a face class, who already has face bonuses. Is it really necessary? Possibly.
Minor (G): Charm Person for 1 round / level, so long as they aren't hostile. That's pretty good. Helps be even more of a face, and when you're in a really awkward situation.
Lesser (G-S): Charm Monster now, and can affect hostiles, though they get +5 to save.
Greater (B-G): Once / day, compel a single target to try and please you. I mean, I guess when you run out of spell points it isn't the worst thing in the world.
Master (S): The fluff says that it consumes the target with love, but the mechanical text says it simply becomes helpful. Don't get me wrong, that's a +10 improvement to Diplomacy checks compared to before. But there is a difference to note.

Resolve (G-S): Very solid, with a nice set of minute-long buffs. If you don't cheese the minor buff, then you are kinda losing out, but meh.
Minor (?): Every time the target fails, he increases his bonus by 1, up to your casting ability modifier, but starts at 0. Lasts a minute, so you can cheese its obvious intent, and make it a nice pre-combat buff, or even for out of combat.
Lesser (<S>): Immune to fear and mental influence, during the minor touch. If you have issues with that, it's epic, like everyone's a paladin, but better. If not, then oh well.
Greater (G): Once / day, immediate action, target rerolls a failed save, with a bonus, and completely avoids the effect if he saves.
Master (<S>): Immune to effects of sickened, and fatigued, and can choose to be staggered instead of a list of other conditions, and if they would drop below 1 hp, this effect ends, and they stay at 1 hp. If you often have issues with those conditions, then this is fantastic. If not, and the only real benefit is the 1 hp save, then you could actually be accidentally killing your friend, as they will get attacked once more - this time without a buffer of hp before death.

Apathy (G): It's a very solid stalling power. It won't be winning you fights, but it could give your fighters a chance to win it for you.
Minor (B-G): Spend a standard action in order to cost someone a standard action, if you touch them, and they fail their save. It's good at shutting down a brute.
Lesser (G): Now it prevents them from moving too. Almost a daze now. That's much better. Still costing you the opportunity to do literally anything else with your turn, but it's better.
Greater (G): Immediate action daze. Once per day. Almost had you there, didn't I? Still, for a daily ability, it's not bad, and solidly maintains your action economy, while not risking your entire turn on a save.
Master (S): Paralyzed for 2-5 rounds. If you don't have a Vancian caster on your team, you're going to feel so overpowered.

Loyalty (<G>): You got an Aid Other build on your team? Take this, and make them praise you for letting them also pretend that they are combat-relevant.
Minor (<G>): For CL rounds, target can perform Aid Other as a swift action. That's basically a situational +2 to a single check for a single target, but if you've got some dude who is an Aid Other build...they probably could already aid other as a swift action.
Lesser (<G>): Now aid other works for both attack and AC. Yay. This is harder to get as an Aid Other build, so go you, for being a team player.
Greater (<S>): Increase combat bonuses for Aid, and positioning. Especially important for rogue-heavy parties, but still useful due to the emotions you had to take before this.
Master (??): I don't know how to rate this? It's incredibly niche. It's probably bad.

Rage (B-G): If you want to dedicate yourself to being the support bicc, who can do nothing but support, and only in one way, this is for you.
Minor (N-B): Grant a willing target +1/2 CL to attack and damage. For one round. Just pull out your Nerf-brand gun and launch a free destructive blast at someone. You'll do so much more. Unless you're targeting an uber charger...who probably didn't need your help.
Lesser (G): Lasts for two rounds, rather than one. That suddenly makes it a decent use of your action, so long as you're targeting someone who does a good deal of damage.
Greater (N): You enter rage as a barbarian. You can enter rage as a barbarian. What!?
Master (G): In a vacuum, this is good, and makes it quite the good use of your action. In reality, this is at level 11, and soaked up 4 emotions, 2 of which overlap, and one which is garbage.

Grief (N-B): Unfortunately, this is bad, not because any of the abilities are bad in a vacuum, but because they tend to just be worse, and come online later than another option you could pick.
Minor (B): Does insignificant nonlethal damage, and sickens for 1 round. But for no save.
Lesser (<G>): Upgrades to Nauseated, which is pretty good, but only on a failed save. I mean, aside from spell casters, Apathy's minor version is better than this... And spell casters are much more likely to make the save.
Greater (G): Gives an AoE sickened-like penalty that stacks with sickened. No Save.
Master (G): For 1/2 level rounds, they are sickened. If the Lesser Fear emotion didn't exist, this would look good. If the minor version of Grief didn't overlap with this, it would look even better.

Joy (N): Be kind to yourself, and don't be filled with joy.
Minor (B): Next round, touched target has advantage on a single d20 roll. If they don't make one? Sucks to be you.
Lesser (N): Now you have a 2 round window. If your DM is generous, that means two rolls for advantage, and not just a window of opportunity. I won't make assumptions though.
Greater (B-G): A level 1 bardic performance with a shorter duration and lesser effect for your level, but you don't have to maintain it with an action.
Master (N): 3 rounds. Same as lesser.

Enmity (N): Just don't. If this is your best choice, trade away emotions for an archetype. I'm sure some devil out there will have a use for them.
Minor (N): Touch someone to make them use an opportunity attack. That isn't on you. Amazing! Incredible! Doesn't let you give your fighter a bonus hit, because it specifies allies. Amazing!
Lesser (B): Now you can add 1/2 CL to their attack and damage! That's like. 5 bonus damage at level 10. You might be able to force them to kill a level 1 wizard! And they might also hit, when you touch them and they fail their save.
Greater (N): You prevent teamwork feats! Oh my god! Yay! Oh, and enemies might occasionally provoke from themselves, and be forced to take the attack of opportunity. While within 30 feet of you.
Master (B-G): You now also burn at least one of their real attacks on an ally as well. Congratulations. Too bad you are in melee with whomever you used this on.

Excitement (N): No.
Minor (N): Grant a willing target some move speed, and a tiny bit of AC. For 1 round. As a standard action. Tell that to the monk. He'll be real excited at you upstaging him.
Lesser (N): It now lasts 2 rounds. Unfortunately no one really cares.
Greater (B-G): Once per day, give an ally an extra attack as a swift action. Not the worst out there, as you do simply get bonus damage in a round... "a" being the operative word.
Master (N): It lasts 3 rounds. Whoopdiedoo. Thank you.

Tranquility (N): That feeling when you try to replace a sphere with a half-assed version.
Minor (N): temporary HP. Jesus Christ, just spend the freaking talent to pick up life sphere. It's not that hard.
Lesser (N-B): While they have your inconsequential amount of temporary hp, gain +4 to saves vs emotions and mind affecting effects. Now you can watch soap box shows, horror films, and flat earth videos.
Greater (N): Literally just pick up the life sphere. Do it. Do it!
Master (B): Wow, now it's like you picked up a second talent in Life sphere. And only ever use it to give temporary HP.


Archetypes Now.

Overall, it's a pretty damned good trade of your hypnotism, and does let you optionally branch in to combat talents, without any real requirement to do so.
Blended Training / Proficiency (B): Congratulations, if you selected this as your first level class, you get a martial tradition for a couple more Might talents. If not (and if so, I guess), then you can now spend your limited supply of magic talents on combat talents (which tend to be worse, overall, in addition to needing more of them to do their job). But you aren't forced to take the combat talents.
Empathic Link - lvl 1 (S): Replaces Hypnotism, which is mediocre anyway. Swift action to force a will save or they are linked with you, granting you some minor bonuses to basically everything against them. Going wide rather than tall with the bonuses means that it's always at least applicable.
lvl 4 (G): Lets you use an emotion at range. This makes them better, but aside master Enmity, it's nothing *truly* game changing, as they are still probably going to be your backup plan, save for a few really good ones.
lvl 7 (S): Up the action to move, but now link with many targets in the same use, granting more effective daily targets. And both spheres of might and power require only standard actions to get their full value, rather than full round actions, the bump to move action is not that big of a drawback.
lvl 10 (G): Blindsight for those in your link. Which does imply that you already saw them at one point before blindsight. But this does effectively counter hiding, invisibility, and illusions that happen after linking up. It's niche, but when it works, it really works.
lvl 13 (S+): Gain unnamed miss chance. This lets it stack with other miss chances as well. But even on its own, miss chance is a great defensive layer.
lvl 16 (G): Now has effectively unlimited range, and can always track down linked targets. That would be better if the duration of a link wasn't measured in rounds. But hey...it fits the niche of screwing over teleporters? Oh, and monks, with their move speed.
lvl 19 (B): Now even tracks the plane they are on. So even more teleport hate, without actually doing anything about the teleporting.
Overall: Very good little archetype, that only *really* trades your hypnotism away. Incredibly, incredibly specialized, and is less good at being the general face of the party. But it does what it does very well.
Debilitating Fear (S): May use hypnotism to cause staggered for (level) rounds. Starting at level 1, it's a bad stalling emotion. Level 3 and later, it's pretty cool, and quite debilitating.
Phobic Bulwark (<G>): In a horror campaign, this is gold. But...kinda defeats the point of playing a horror campaign.
Fear’s Herald (S+): Causes a further -4 to saves vs your fears, stacking with Persuasion bonus. Of course, this means you are spending an action to inflict this penalty, rather than casting fear, but that's one of the most effective save penalties you could inflict, even if its only for specifically your stuff, and it's in an admittedly small AoE. Oh, and it lets you potentially fear the fearless. This could potentially include mindless, as they are immune to fear as well, thus letting you have a chance to best the bane of your existance.

Antagonizing (G): Basically specialize in intimidate, rather than all face skills, with a small bonus. But intimidate is the one face skill that also has good combat use, and it's to cause fear, which synergizes with your specialty.
Fear's Master (S): Improves the chance of you besting the fearless.
Ochlophobia (B): You can turn a feared target in to a pylon to cause others to be feared. This would seem to be exclusively useful in either dungeons, where the monsters run to other monsters, or in out of combat situations like making a commoner run screaming in to the town. At least you're only trading link.
Fear Incarnate (G): Now them being more than 4 levels higher than you doesn't stop you from fearing them. At least not implicitly. They still have 4 extra levels, giving them bonuses to save, and harder to make your check. But it's not a hard stop.
Overall, it's a good controller. Would being a mind sphere controller be just as good or even better? Quite possibly. But it's a different flavor.
Inciter (G): Full caster for War rather than Mind sphere. Meh. War sphere benefits less from it, but it's not like you're not getting a benefit from it.
Ominous (N): +2 to DCs of War rather than Mind sphere. Why's that so bad when it was originally S++ with Mind? Because you can count on a single hand the number of talents that need a save in this sphere, and they aren't fantastic.
Eyes of Onyx (S): Give up an unnecessary defensive ability for ranged emotions. That's a win in my book. Of course, it's just a feat that anyone could take, but it's a free feat.

Recklessness (B): Spend an action to make someone lose their dex to AC. Good with rogues. Good against super elf snake people. Bad everywhere else.
Confusion (G-S): Replaces Liberate with the ability to inflict Confusion. For a will save, but damn, that's pretty good.
Sadism (G): Effectively a nonlethal destructive blast, with will save for half. Of course, real destructive blasts are better, but it's there if you need it.

Revulsion (G): Give up Inspire Heroics for Nauseate and Sicken. Not a bad trade.
Hopelessness (S): Hard lockdown of a creature. I mean, in the Vancian world, this sorta thing is a power for around level 6-8, and this comes in at level 19. But this is Spheres of Power.

Darkest Presence (S): AoE hypnotism. So long as you are using this on at least 4 creatures, then you're coming out ahead on daily uses of your hypnotism, in addition to just straight up ramping your action economy and probably inflicting Hopelessness on a bunch of them.
Basically, trade the hypnotism for investigator stuff. Some of the new investigator talents in SoP are good.
Replaces hypnotism for additional emotions. 6 one, half dozen the other.

A.J.Gibson
2020-04-18, 09:04 PM
I wrote an Eliciter book a while back:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hw9e1gpZNg26OSWNcL3DZj351mKivJDQ1DgwRcydFLo/edit?usp=sharing

We seem to agree on most things.

Also, before you do Soul Weaver, I did that book too:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1241NAiUYcXwHPUCpBnFFyVn67l7xePF3hDKp2blsbWQ/edit?usp=sharing

SangoProduction
2020-04-19, 04:37 AM
I wrote an Eliciter book a while back:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Hw9e1gpZNg26OSWNcL3DZj351mKivJDQ1DgwRcydFLo/edit?usp=sharing

We seem to agree on most things.

Also, before you do Soul Weaver, I did that book too:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1241NAiUYcXwHPUCpBnFFyVn67l7xePF3hDKp2blsbWQ/edit?usp=sharing

Nice. I expected someone to have done something like this before.

Grek
2020-04-19, 06:19 AM
Seems like neither of those guides actually get into the direct meat and bones of the Eliciter class, the Mind Sphere. There's basically 3 kinds of Talents that you can get: (charm) talents, (cloud) talents and (cognition) talents. The (cognition) and (cloud) abilities are low-impact information gathering/utility abilities and medium impact stealth/hindering abilities respectively. Not bad to have, certainly, but not character difining abilities for an eliciter. The (charm) talents are the real bread and better, so naturally they're what I'm going to focus on. And unfortunately for the Eliciter, (charm) talents have three big restrictions: Every (charm) is [mind-affecting] and therefore has no effect on plants, oozes, undead, constructs or vermin unless you take the correct version of Recondite Stimuli, which is itself an Advanced Talent which requires DM permission to even select. Furthermore, you hae no ability to bypass mind-affecting immunity from other sources, like Protection from Foo effects, Hallow in the Fate sphere or being a mindless creature of some other type. Outsiders come to mind here as a big problem for you. Unless you take Expanded Charm, it only works on creatures of your type - ie humanoids for most adventurers. You cannot charm animals, giants, outsiders, etc. even if they are normally subject to mind-affecting. Will Saves for everyone! Out of all the (charm) effects available, you have 4 buffs, 1 utility effect, 1 opposed caster level check, and 18 Will negates effects. One of them offers a Reflex save and another offers a Fort save, but these are both in addition to and only after the Will negates save that they already got.While you could play a buffs specialist Eliciter, there's no actual reason to do that, as it doesn't leverage the Eliciter's one big selling point of having very good Save DCs. A Mind-sphere buff specialist should be an Incanter or a Symbiat instead.

So. As an Eliciter, you're basically required to figure out some sort of side-gig for when there's no mind-affecting vulnerable nails around for you to hammer with the Mind Sphere. Sango suggests a dip into Destruction. This isn't a bad suggestion, but I would personally recommend a more oblique approach: Enhancement. In particular, Bestow Intelligence. That talent allows a Will save without your Eliciter bonuses or full caster level, but can effect mindless creatures and render them susceptible to [mind-affecting] with a two basic talent investment instead of a four advanced talent investment. Furthermore, if you take the Backdoor Control ability, any creature that you hit with Bestow Intelligence (among other effects) will automatically treat your (charm) effects as one step more reasonable for the purposes of save DCs and how many spell points you need to spend. Enhancement also has the ability to buff your own Charisma and to create animated objects - both useful abilities for a social-focused caster looking to convince people and spy on the opposition.

SangoProduction
2020-04-19, 06:25 AM
Seems like neither of those guides actually get into the direct meat and bones of the Eliciter class, the Mind Sphere. There's basically 3 kinds of Talents that you can get: (charm) talents, (cloud) talents and (cognition) talents. The (cognition) and (cloud) abilities are low-impact information gathering/utility abilities and medium impact stealth/hindering abilities respectively. Not bad to have, certainly, but not character difining abilities for an eliciter. The (charm) talents are the real bread and better, so naturally they're what I'm going to focus on. And unfortunately for the Eliciter, (charm) talents have three big restrictions: Every (charm) is [mind-affecting] and therefore has no effect on plants, oozes, undead, constructs or vermin unless you take the correct version of Recondite Stimuli, which is itself an Advanced Talent which requires DM permission to even select. Furthermore, you hae no ability to bypass mind-affecting immunity from other sources, like Protection from Foo effects, Hallow in the Fate sphere or being a mindless creature of some other type. Outsiders come to mind here as a big problem for you. Unless you take Expanded Charm, it only works on creatures of your type - ie humanoids for most adventurers. You cannot charm animals, giants, outsiders, etc. even if they are normally subject to mind-affecting. Will Saves for everyone! Out of all the (charm) effects available, you have 4 buffs, 1 utility effect, 1 opposed caster level check, and 18 Will negates effects. One of them offers a Reflex save and another offers a Fort save, but these are both in addition to and only after the Will negates save that they already got.While you could play a buffs specialist Eliciter, there's no actual reason to do that, as it doesn't leverage the Eliciter's one big selling point of having very good Save DCs. A Mind-sphere buff specialist should be an Incanter or a Symbiat instead.

So. As an Eliciter, you're basically required to figure out some sort of side-gig for when there's no mind-affecting vulnerable nails around for you to hammer with the Mind Sphere. Sango suggests a dip into Destruction. This isn't a bad suggestion, but I would personally recommend a more oblique approach: Enhancement. In particular, Bestow Intelligence. That talent allows a Will save without your Eliciter bonuses or full caster level, but can effect mindless creatures and render them susceptible to [mind-affecting] with a two basic talent investment instead of a four advanced talent investment. Furthermore, if you take the Backdoor Control ability, any creature that you hit with Bestow Intelligence (among other effects) will automatically treat your (charm) effects as one step more reasonable for the purposes of save DCs and how many spell points you need to spend. Enhancement also has the ability to buff your own Charisma and to create animated objects - both useful abilities for a social-focused caster looking to convince people and spy on the opposition.

Not a bad bit of additional advice. I do, however, do these pretty piecemeal, and was planning on doing the mind sphere later on, as I did the Alteration sphere with the Shifter. I would not have even thought to go for Enhancement, but that's actually pretty cool, and reminds me of the quote, "If it bleeds, we can kill it. If it doesn't bleed, then we can pump it with blood and then kill it." Which is definitely worth bonus points.

icefractal
2020-04-20, 06:31 PM
I like the Enhancement idea, never tried that.

War can also be nice to pair with Mind, mainly for Mental Assault (-2 to their saves if they're within your totem). Plus, many of the totems fit conceptually with being mental buffs/debuffs.

Light is an alternative to Destruction for the "at least I can deal normal damage" option on mindless (or high-save) targets. It takes a feat, but with Searing Brilliance you're doing 2*level damage/round in an area (which can be shapeable), half of which is untyped. And Halo Effect combines nicely with the Eliciter social bonuses.

SangoProduction
2020-04-22, 01:30 PM
I like the Enhancement idea, never tried that.

War can also be nice to pair with Mind, mainly for Mental Assault (-2 to their saves if they're within your totem). Plus, many of the totems fit conceptually with being mental buffs/debuffs.

Light is an alternative to Destruction for the "at least I can deal normal damage" option on mindless (or high-save) targets. It takes a feat, but with Searing Brilliance you're doing 2*level damage/round in an area (which can be shapeable), half of which is untyped. And Halo Effect combines nicely with the Eliciter social bonuses.

Nice ideas that I haven't really considered. I mean, Searing Brilliance is rather uninteresting for 2 talents and a feat. But the rest of it is pretty good.