Exhaustion?

[elyktsorb]

So I was just looking at Exhaustion, because I was curious about barbarian stuff, does anyone else find it weird that level 1 of exhaustion is disadvantage on all skill checks, but level 2 is just half speed.

Like isn't this odd?, 'Oh i've been awake for 24 hours (or however long getting a lvl of exhaustion takes) , I can't do anything at all without messing it up somehow.' to 'oh I've been awake for 48 hours, I'm going to walk a little slower now' Doesn't that feel like it should be the reverse? Or at least combined together?

[Trask]

I think advantage on all ability checks models being exhausted pretty well. Whenever I've pulled an all-nighter I'm drowsy the next day, can't focus on anything, fumbling with my words and hands. But I'm not so much slower in the body, particularly if I need to be.

[Chronos]

It is combined together. The table is cumulative.

At one level of exhaustion, you have disadvantage on checks. At two levels, you have that, and move slower. At three levels, you have both of those, and disadvantage on attacks and saves, and so on.

[Sigreid]

I'd say it's pretty fair. You go from losing focus, to not being able to move as fast in addition to not being able to focus on down. Really, this is why sickening radiance can be one of the more brutal spells in the game if you have the ability to keep your opponent in it.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

So I was just looking at Exhaustion, because I was curious about barbarian stuff, does anyone else find it weird that level 1 of exhaustion is disadvantage on all skill checks, but level 2 is just half speed.

Like isn't this odd?, 'Oh i've been awake for 24 hours (or however long getting a lvl of exhaustion takes) , I can't do anything at all without messing it up somehow.' to 'oh I've been awake for 48 hours, I'm going to walk a little slower now' Doesn't that feel like it should be the reverse? Or at least combined together?

The exhaustion table probably should have levels 1 and 2 switched, but the table is the only good thing 5e made connected to exhaustion.

The game kinda forgets that it's there most of the time. A lot of features could have worked with it in some way.

The barbarian uses it, but, it's the only class to get such a hefty penalty for such a small reward (one more attack per turn of rage isn't worth it til late levels). If you could burn hit dice to remove exhaustion it wouldn't be too bad.

Also, there should be a level in which enemies have advantage on saves versus your spells. I hate that disadvantage on attacks pop up in a lot of places but there's no version of that for saving throws. Dropping fireballs should be as tacing OR MORE than swinging a sword or firing off an attack roll spell.

[TigerT20]

The exhaustion table probably should have levels 1 and 2 switched, but the table is the only good thing 5e made connected to exhaustion.

The game kinda forgets that it's there most of the time. A lot of features could have worked with it in some way.

The barbarian uses it, but, it's the only class to get such a hefty penalty for such a small reward (one more attack per turn of rage isn't worth it til late levels). If you could burn hit dice to remove exhaustion it wouldn't be too bad.

Also, there should be a level in which enemies have advantage on saves versus your spells. I hate that disadvantage on attacks pop up in a lot of places but there's no version of that for saving throws. Dropping fireballs should be as tacing OR MORE than swinging a sword or firing off an attack roll spell.

Well, saving throws are the enemy reacting, not you acting, and all abilities that effect saving throws (other than Metamagic, Sculpt Spells, etc) activate when being targeted, not targeting.

If you wanted to incorporate something to affect this, you could say you can only cast spells of levels equal to and under 9 - your level of exhastion. Would take some time to effect lower-level casters though. Perhaps equal to + lower than half your level?

[elyktsorb]

It is combined together. The table is cumulative.

At one level of exhaustion, you have disadvantage on checks. At two levels, you have that, and move slower. At three levels, you have both of those, and disadvantage on attacks and saves, and so on.

I know that, I was more thinking that the first two should be swapped, or at least combined in the 1st level. Since I can, at the very least attest to being able to function after 24 hours without sleep, I can still do somewhat 'specialized things' without it being an issue. Or even that the 3rd level should be the 1st level. Like, I'm so tired I can barely 'do x skill (which could range from trying to climb a wall to just lying to people' though that in particular is more to do with the lack of specifications on 5e in general. I just personally figure Movement speed, or attacking/reacting to attacks would be impacted first, and more prominently.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Well, saving throws are the enemy reacting, not you acting, and all abilities that effect saving throws (other than Metamagic, Sculpt Spells, etc) activate when being targeted, not targeting.

If you wanted to incorporate something to affect this, you could say you can only cast spells of levels equal to and under 9 - your level of exhastion. Would take some time to effect lower-level casters though. Perhaps equal to + lower than half your level?

How well you can cast a spell could give the enemy advantage on a saving throw.

Instead of getting fiddly with numbers and changing the DC, a creature could have advantage because you can't out your entire concentration into casting the spell.

I really hate that 5e has a lot of great ideas but then they just half-donkeyed incorporating them throughout the game (like fiddly modifiers).

[Dragons_Ire]

I house ruled the exhaustion table so that I can use it more freely as a penalty.

Every time you receive exhaustion, you mark an ability score (of your choice) as exhausted. While that ability score is exhausted, all attacks, checks, and saves with that stat have disadvantage.
If you have 2+ stats exhausted, movement is halved. If you have 4+ stats exhausted, max HP is halved. And, as normal, you die if all stats are exhausted. A long rest allows you to un-exhaust one exhausted stat, provided you ingest some food and drink.

I haven't really rigorously tested it yet, but it seems to work well so far.

[firelistener]

Personally, I like having the disadvantage as the level 1 consequence because it's so severe. It gives players an incentive to actually plan rest into adventuring days even when they might not have any combat encounters.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, there should be a level in which enemies have advantage on saves versus your spells. I hate that disadvantage on attacks pop up in a lot of places but there's no version of that for saving throws. Dropping fireballs should be as tacing OR MORE than swinging a sword or firing off an attack roll spell. If lesser restoration relieved on level, and greater all of them, exhaustion would be about 70% fixed. It costs a resource to deal with. If you can overcome paralysis with LR, why not one level of exhaustion?
Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine in re this mechanic.

[MaxWilson]

Also, there should be a level in which enemies have advantage on saves versus your spells. I hate that disadvantage on attacks pop up in a lot of places but there's no version of that for saving throws. Dropping fireballs should be as tacing OR MORE than swinging a sword or firing off an attack roll spell.

Probably the simplest way to do it would be at level 4 to say "Your hit point maximum is halved AND your proficiency bonus decreases to zero." Spell DCs would automatically drop to follow suit.


If lesser restoration relieved on level, and greater all of them, exhaustion would be about 70% fixed. It costs a resource to deal with. If you can overcome paralysis with LR, why not one level of exhaustion?
Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine in re this mechanic.

I like this suggestion a lot better than the RAW. One level of exhaustion feels approximately equal to being poisoned or diseased, makes sense to let Lesser Restoration treat them as equivalent.

[Grey Watcher]

Also, there should be a level in which enemies have advantage on saves versus your spells. I hate that disadvantage on attacks pop up in a lot of places but there's no version of that for saving throws. Dropping fireballs should be as tacing OR MORE than swinging a sword or firing off an attack roll spell.

Yeah, but isn't the point of saving throw attacks that they don't require precision on the part of the attack. A fireball is like lobbing a hand grenade in that there's not much difference between "hit 'em right between the eyes" and "was about 4 feet too far left." Lighting bolt aims less like a rifle and more like a firehose. The DC just represents how hot the fire is, how intense the lightning is, how stinky the cloud is, how virulent the contagion, etc. (Now, there are probably cases where something is RAW a saving throw that should be an attack roll and vice versa, but I consider that a separate issue.)

As for which should come first, disadvantage on skill checks or halving speed, I think it's fine as is. Speed is, again, something that doesn't require a whole lot of precision (at least compared to lockpicking or something). In my experience, through adrenaline, sheer determination, or whathaveyou, a person can keep running (especially f it's only short bursts) for a long after exhaustion has started to mess with memory, fine motor control, and other more intricate tasks. You have to get a lot worse before something basic like walking and running starts to meaningfully degrade.

Yeah, you probably want to stop, but then D&D doesn't have any rules for survival instinct kicking in when you get shot, stabbed twice, sliced, and struck by lightning within a minute, either. It's just assumed that you have some sort of heroic grit that lets you just power through the discomfort.

(As an aside, this makes me wonder if a marathon should be modeled with Con checks or Con saves.....)

[Chaos Jackal]

Grey Watcher nails it.

You're out partying late. You've been up for hours, but you can still give it your all on the dance floor. Adrenaline kicks in, the sight of the woman dancing with you keeps you going; you are burning through your reserves, but for the time being you've got the energy.

What you don't have is the precision, the reaction, the intuition. You place your glass too close to the edge of the table, and then knock it over when you try to pick it up again. You're asked for a piece of trivia you normally know well, but your brain is stuck and you can't recall it, or it takes you a minute to remember, or you answer too fast and answer wrong. You're driving home and you scratch the paint as you turn into the narrow street in front of your house.

You're beat, but you're not fully aware of it. You still act mostly like you would normally. At first glance you're fine. It's the finer things that give away the exhaustion.

If you end up moving like you're out of breath, on the other hand, you've gone quite a way over your limits.

I actually find the disadvantage on attacks and saves kicking in so late weirder. Your hands tremble and you can't properly pick that lock, you're stumbling and tripping over your own feet, yet you're still capable of swinging your sword with the same force and precision, and you're just as quick on your feet to react to the bolt of lightning that guy in the robes just shot? This is where it feels more like a case of keeping the nastier effects for extreme cases.

[Grey Watcher]

I actually find the disadvantage on attacks and saves kicking in so late weirder. Your hands tremble and you can't properly pick that lock, you're stumbling and tripping over your own feet, yet you're still capable of swinging your sword with the same force and precision, and you're just as quick on your feet to react to the bolt of lightning that guy in the robes just shot? This is where it feels more like a case of keeping the nastier effects for extreme cases.

I suspect this is something where playability overrides verisimilitude. I'm sure you can handwave it that attacking or saving involves a particularly large adrenaline spike which can overcome your tiredness for a second or so, but I think it's placed primarily because those are the two must-haves to get through combat encounters intact, so they don't get impinged upon unless you've been running very far afoul of the exhaustion rules. (Especially since your speed and ability checks are impeded, making escape much more difficult than it otherwise would be.)

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Yeah, but isn't the point of saving throw attacks that they don't require precision on the part of the attack. A fireball is like lobbing a hand grenade in that there's not much difference between "hit 'em right between the eyes" and "was about 4 feet too far left." Lighting bolt aims less like a rifle and more like a firehose. The DC just represents how hot the fire is, how intense the lightning is, how stinky the cloud is, how virulent the contagion, etc. (Now, there are probably cases where something is RAW a saving throw that should be an attack roll and vice versa, but I consider that a separate issue.)



No.

You still have a difficulty challenge for enemies to overcome. This DC brings forth your ability score. Something that is affected by exhaustion.

Exhaustion causes attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks to have disadvantage. what these have in common is your rolls that affect ability scores are hampered. If you aren't good at casting a spell, because you're tired, why would your spell's ability to take hold not be hampered in the same way?

If you can't put your full focus into a Wisdom check, save, or attack why does your full focus go into your difficulty class that applies your wisdom based spells?

If you can't focus, your DC should be affected. The simplest way to show this is to impart advantage on the saving throw against your spells. This way the target number doesn't change all the time but it does become easier for specific enemies to overcome your ability score/proficiency bonus due to you being exhausted.

Saying otherwise is just hand waving save spells for the sake of it and throwing out internal consistency for the sake of throwing it out.

[Grey Watcher]

No.

You still have a difficulty challenge for enemies to overcome. This DC brings forth your ability score. Something that is affected by exhaustion.

Exhaustion causes attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks to have disadvantage. what these have in common is your rolls that affect ability scores are hampered. If you aren't good at casting a spell, because you're tired, why would your spell's ability to take hold not be hampered in the same way?

If you can't put your full focus into a Wisdom check, save, or attack why does your full focus go into your difficulty class that applies your wisdom based spells?

If you can't focus, your DC should be affected. The simplest way to show this is to impart advantage on the saving throw against your spells. This way the target number doesn't change all the time but it does become easier for specific enemies to overcome your ability score/proficiency bonus due to you being exhausted.

Saying otherwise is just hand waving save spells for the sake of it and throwing out internal consistency for the sake of throwing it out.

Eh, you can justify either decision, really. Again, the ease-of-play factor (having to remember someone else's bonuses and penalties when you're rolling) is coming into play. I mean, if we're absolutely insisting on reality, it's all just dice and paper and words. The "roleplaying" in "roleplaying game" is an exercise in figuring out how to apply a narrative justification to whatever die rolls and math just happened. As such, I tried to come up with a narrative reason why attacks are affected and saving throws are not. This sort of disagreement is a common reason why houserules even exist. If the rule breaks verisimilitude for enough people at the table, change the rule.

Changing it to "you lose your proficiency bonus" is a fine houserule. Wizards didn't do it, I presume, because recalculating stats on the fly (yes, even a very simple one) is annoying to most people. So they made the rules to avoid that and here we are.

Half the game stops making any sense at all if you demand perfect simulation. Why can I take 14 blows from a giant club, but the 15th and only the 15th actually affects my ability to do anything? How does martial arts training or being a professional thief mean that I can stand in the blast radius of an explosion and be entirely unharmed? How on earth does a real economy produce the prices in the equipment section, anyway? So you can just accept the weird results and try to imagine some way they work (even if it's movie logic), you can houserule things until it's acceptable, or you can find (or make) a system that's built from the ground up to do the thing you're looking for. Or just abandon rules altogether and mutually agree on what makes sense. Just do whatever's fun for you and your friends.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Eh, you can justify either decision, really. Again, the ease-of-play factor (having to remember someone else's bonuses and penalties when you're rolling) is coming into play. I mean, if we're absolutely insisting on reality, it's all just dice and paper and words. The "roleplaying" in "roleplaying game" is an exercise in figuring out how to apply a narrative justification to whatever die rolls and math just happened. As such, I tried to come up with a narrative reason why attacks are affected and saving throws are not. This sort of disagreement is a common reason why houserules even exist. If the rule breaks verisimilitude for enough people at the table, change the rule.

Changing it to "you lose your proficiency bonus" is a fine houserule. Wizards didn't do it, I presume, because recalculating stats on the fly (yes, even a very simple one) is annoying to most people. So they made the rules to avoid that and here we are.

Half the game stops making any sense at all if you demand perfect simulation. Why can I take 14 blows from a giant club, but the 15th and only the 15th actually affects my ability to do anything? How does martial arts training or being a professional thief mean that I can stand in the blast radius of an explosion and be entirely unharmed? How on earth does a real economy produce the prices in the equipment section, anyway? So you can just accept the weird results and try to imagine some way they work (even if it's movie logic), you can houserule things until it's acceptable, or you can find (or make) a system that's built from the ground up to do the thing you're looking for. Or just abandon rules altogether and mutually agree on what makes sense. Just do whatever's fun for you and your friends.

I feel the simplest solution is advantage.

The whole point of advantage/disadvantage is to keep fiddliness out of the game (which 5e forgets it exists but whatever) and taking away Prof is a totally different thing than the ability score.

Not giving enemies advantage on saves is a huge buff to lazy casters when exhaustion comes into play.

Might as well get rid of disadvantage on attacks, saves, and checks too, to make it fair/balanced.

[Chronos]

There are abilities you can have that cause enemies to save against your spells at disadvantage, like the Arcane Trickster's magical ambush. Those have to be described, in some sense, as you being so good at what you do that it's harder for enemies to save. So by the same token, being bad at what you do (such as by being exhausted) could reasonably make it easier for enemies to save versus your spells, by giving them advantage.

[Grey Watcher]

I feel the simplest solution is advantage.

The whole point of advantage/disadvantage is to keep fiddliness out of the game (which 5e forgets it exists but whatever) and taking away Prof is a totally different thing than the ability score.

Not giving enemies advantage on saves is a huge buff to lazy casters when exhaustion comes into play.

Might as well get rid of disadvantage on attacks, saves, and checks too, to make it fair/balanced.


There are abilities you can have that cause enemies to save against your spells at disadvantage, like the Arcane Trickster's magical ambush. Those have to be described, in some sense, as you being so good at what you do that it's harder for enemies to save. So by the same token, being bad at what you do (such as by being exhausted) could reasonably make it easier for enemies to save versus your spells, by giving them advantage.

A lot of 5e design decisions seem to come from thought experiments along the lines of "What would it feel like if this is the first time I'm playing an RPG of any kind, including computer and console games?" It's why things that more experienced players take for granted, like feats and multiclassing, are presented as optional variants rather than core rules. So I think that's the main reason they tried so hard to avoid "someone else's condition affects your roll." Trying to keep track if your own conditions and such can be a lot, especially if the last time you played a board game was Monopoly 20 years prior. Having to keep track of OTHER people's statuses at the same time is demand a fair bit of system mastery.

And though it's often assumed that the DM is a veteran player, they seemed to have tried ( successfully or otherwise) to avoid that assumption as much as they felt they could within the rules. Again, keeping track of the condition of each of half a dozen NPCs is a lot for anyone who hasn't had a chance to truly master the system.

As for things like the Arcane Ambush, they may have decided that the player's fun in being able to say to the DM "nu-uh, because I have a thing!" was fun enough to be worth being an exception. (Just how few NPC statblocks have an equivalent ability, anyway?) Room for criticism of design comsistrncy, but the perception of fairness and actual fairness are different things. (An actual 70% chance of success probably feels a lot worse than that in practice because humans are very bad at understanding risk and probability without devoting a lot of effort to studying it.) The DM cam easily feel strong via sheer numbers, so PCs get their chance to feel special because they break the core rules in various ways.

All of this is to say that D&D 5e is quite deliberately a game first and a simulation second, by a fair margin. And even within that, designing for fun takes precedence over keeping the antagonists and protagonists balanced against each other.

So, you circle back to the original point of the thread, the penalties come in the order they do because that's what the designers felt made sense for gameplay and any narrative justification is sort of grafted on after the fact. I happen to think the implied narrative justification works fairly well, but that's obviously not a universal sentiment.

I guess this is boils down to sidestepping the question, but arbitrary decision is arbitrary. :shrug:

[Chronos]

OK, I can see some value in saying that other people's abilities shouldn't affect your rolls. But then, saving throws sort of break that already. When the fighter wants to find out if his attack works, he rolls a die, but when the mage wants to find out if his spell works, he waits for someone else to roll a die. They changed that in 4th edition, of course, but tradition prevailed in 5th, even though there's no fundamental reason for the tradition, and the game could be made mechanically identical no matter who's rolling the dice.

And come to think of it, there are also plenty of abilities that say that attackers get disadvantage on their attack rolls. That's also your ability affecting someone else's rolls.

[N810]

If you look closely a lot of the Berserkers abilities counter exhaustion levels somewhat,
disadvantage of abilities/Advantage of ST abilities while raging.
Disadvantage on attacks/reckless attacks
reduced movement speed/+10 movement speed (so half is 25 instead of 20)
ok the next one is just terrible followed by death. so yea don't go that far. :/

[Chronos]

Looking at that the other way, though, exhaustion counters the barbarian's abilities. If using one of your abilities negates most of your other abilities, why are you doing that?