The OOTS lose, what is the best option?

[dancrilis]

Assuming that the OOTS lose, they fail to destroy Xykon, fail to convince Redcloak etc but do manage to hold the gate for a limited time - what is the best option?

1. They could destroy the gate, unleash the snarl and doom all living souls to destruction. This prevents The Dark One or Xykon getting the gate and means Hel doesn't get the dwarven souls.
2. They could send a message to the gods that they have failed - and so Thor and the others could move to destroy the world. This prevents The Dark One or Xykon getting the gate saves the souls of the inhabitants but means Hel gets the dwarven souls.
3. They could hand over the gate to Xykon/Redcloak - this means that the world likely continues to exist. This prevents Hel or Xykon getting the gate saves the souls of the inhabitants but means Dark One gets what he wants (whatever that might be).
4. They could go down swinging - this means they don't really know what will happen but it won't really be their call.
5. Other - not listed.
6. Other - but requiring them to have more knowledge then they likely have i.e possibly help Xykon get control of the gates, give Thor control of the gate etc.

Just wondering what option would be best primarily from 1-3, my thinking is that 3 might be the best option from those options - but there may be options under 5 that are obvious and I have not considered.

[CriticalFailure]

Ask Xykon why he wants to give control of the Gate to the goblin deity.

[understatement]

Shout out all the truths. Make Redcloak choose between who to ally with.

Barring that, option four. Seems to have the same outcome as option 3 and who knows, maybe the Stick will manage to kill one of them.

[KorvinStarmast]

Shout out all the truths. Make Redcloak choose between who to ally with.

Barring that, option four. Seems to have the same outcome as option 3 and who knows, maybe the Stick will manage to kill one of them.
I am trying to sort out how Belkar's "favored enemy, undead" figures into this as he goes down swinging. Don't have sufficient 3.5e expertise to make a solid guess.

[Emanick]

I am trying to sort out how Belkar's "favored enemy, undead" figures into this as he goes down swinging. Don't have sufficient 3.5e expertise to make a solid guess.

Belkar is so horribly optimized for fighting Xykon that it seems like it wouldn’t make a big difference. He’d probably still be more of a threat to Redcloak (or Oona, for that matter).

Of the plans in the OP, “let the villains win” honestly sounds like the best one. Which is not something I expected to say.

[RatElemental]

In combat, favored enemy amounts to +2 damage per attack you land. Most of its bonuses are to things like tracking and lying to your quarry. Belkar's barbarian rage gives as much of a damage boost as favored enemy does, but it gives it to every attack regardless of what you're attacking.

That said, Belkar is a two weapon fighting spec, so flat damage bonuses to his attacks are actually better than they'd otherwise be. In the end though, he's probably throwing around +12/+16 damage per full attack at best from favored enemy, with another +12/+16 from rage. And that's if he manages to land all his attacks, which isn't terribly likely. +32 damage per round actually will put a dent in Xykon, unless he has dr, but only if Belkar stays on his feet and Xykon isn't the subject of a mass inflict wounds that also targets the party.

[Wizard_Lizard]

YEah I think if all seems lost, their best option is to just trying to explain everything that they know, about the gates, the snarl, the dark one... And if that fails... the best option is to hand it over to the villains, however I doubt that the oots would ever choose that and would much prefer to go down fighting.

[RatElemental]

Handing it over to the villains is pretty likely to end up with all the gods dead. Best case scenario is probably to destroy the gate and let the status quo continue. Otherwise TDO teleports the gate to the outer planes, snarl rampages, all gods die, existence falls into a state of chaos where the only thing that exists is the snarl. Forever.

[Aidan]

Handing it over to the villains is pretty likely to end up with all the gods dead. Best case scenario is probably to destroy the gate and let the status quo continue. Otherwise TDO teleports the gate to the outer planes, snarl rampages, all gods die, existence falls into a state of chaos where the only thing that exists is the snarl. Forever.

I doubt that all Gods will die and the Universe will enter a state of chaos, I remembered this quote the Giant made a few months back.



There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.


The Dark One's best chance, and really only chance is to get his hands on the snarl, and never let him out of the bottle, as then, he has nothing except a bunch of Gods angry at him and a God killing monstrosity rampaging. The most likely scenario of handing the gate over to The Dark One would be the world still existing, at least for a while. Eventually, even though the gate has been moved, the snarl would break out again, probably kill TDO and then I would assume that it could be lured back to the Prime Material Plane and re-trapped by a new world. Sure it would suck, but its not the complete doomsday that you mentioned.

[Alcore]

Assuming that the OOTS lose, they fail to destroy Xykon, fail to convince Redcloak etc but do manage to hold the gate for a limited time - what is the best option?

They hold the gate... meaning that for X amount of time Team Evil is incapable or unable to take the gate from them?


I like living. I am a member of the Order (in this hypothetical at least). As a ghost I would go to the afterlife. Since no one knows about the rifts my mind will be desecrated by the gods (memory wipe) or be subsumed into the plane/deity it self as food.

The best option in my mind knowing what I know would be to hand it over to Team Evil and hope the Dark One doesn't go overboard.



there are 8 members (out of ten) with the mental capacity of voicing an opinion so we need 8 more answers based on each member of the party for the "best option".

[RatElemental]

Since no one knows about the rifts my mind will be desecrated by the gods (memory wipe) or be subsumed into the plane/deity it self as food.

This is the fate of all souls that don't get destroyed by the snarl (or any other so far unheard of soul destroying force). This is their ultimate fate whether the dark one helps to stabilize the material plane or not. I really don't know how this factors in to the decision making process here.

[Alcore]

This is the fate of all souls that don't get destroyed by the snarl (or any other so far unheard of soul destroying force). This is their ultimate fate whether the dark one helps to stabilize the material plane or not. I really don't know how this factors in to the decision making process here.

A fate(s) worse than any i can think of. Postponing such a fate served by apathetic gods is a thing i would put great weight on.