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Zaile
2020-04-19, 02:24 AM
EDIT: Thread updated re-posted in 3.5 forum Please reply there https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610709-Monster-Campaign-3-5&p=24460492#post24460492

I am a long-time player, but new DM. I've only run a few short campaigns and one-shots.

I want to try this, but it may be too crazy to work.

The PCs will all play monsters who are part of an invading horde under a very powerful Elder Demon or Dracolich (haven't decided yet). These guys were effectively Lieuten ants in an army commanding regiments. The campaign will start after the demonic horde has conquered most of the kingdom and the PCs are laying siege to one of the last strongholds the mortal races have. They win the battle, but something happens at the end. By the end of the first session, they will no longer be evil, alignments flip to mirror opposites, and the PCs motivations and missions will change. Monster characters are powerful, but once the PCs former employer learns of their new leanings, he knows all of their old tricks and powers and will counter accordingly. On top of this, the good creatures of the realm will be outright hostile most of the time, so there will be a good bit of creativity, RP, & skill checks as engaging in combat with good creatures will be a divine no-no.

The campaign will start at effectively level 10, and I'm looking at allowing monsters with CR/HD/LA 9 or lower. Each PC will have at least one base class level, but for players those that choose weaker monsters, I plan to offset it with base class levels that bring CR/HD/LA up to 10. This group has a few optimizers, me being one, but we have a lot of younger players and they are good at toning down. This will be much less toned by default.

The books I'm leaving open for monster race selection al all the Monster Manuals and the sourcebooks for Forgotten Realms. For simplicity sake and the purposes of this thread CR=HD=LA and can be used interchangeably. Any monsters with class levels or class-based spellcasting (like Nymph) have those added to CR/HD/LA for this limit.

I put a few restrictions in place. I may add more, but I need the more input. One or two may be flexible depending on the abilities and character.


None of Challenge Rating, Hit Dice, or Level Adjustment may be higher than 9
Generic MM entries only. No named, elite, versions of monsters like Ashladon or Drizzt
Small, Medium or Large size only
The creatures alignment must be: LE, CN, NE or CE
The monster must have an Intelligence score of 9 or higher
Cannot be an animated or intelligent object and must be able to move and act freely on it's own
May use templates, but templates will be limited to low CR monsters. Templates must also abide alignment restrictions LE, CN, NE or CE
Monsters who have spellcasting ability, like the Nymph's "casts as 7th level Druid" will be a case-by-case basis
Creatures with powerful supernatural or spell like abilities like Summon Monster 4+, Teleport, Wish, Miracle, Gate, Planar binding etc. are OK, but they will lose those abilities
Flight, burrow, swim speed, etc. are OK
Possible feats, total skill ranks, race (class) skills, etc. are the same as the entry


Players all start with the equipment in the monster's entry, but any additional starting gold or magic items are determined by class levels.

Limits I'm pretty sure to add:

Must have a Con score and may not have a "--" in any other score
Cannot be incorporeal
Any use of a power that goes against new alignment just doesn't work
No mind-control powers
Also thinking about toning down abilities like SR, DR, and Supernatural or Spell-like abilities, or forgo them entirely as they are no longer the evil being that fueled their abilities


Is this just crazy? Or is it crazy enough to work?

Pleh
2020-04-19, 08:18 AM
You should ask a mod to move this to the 3.5 edition subforum. You'll get better, more precise feedback there.

Zaile
2020-04-19, 06:47 PM
You should ask a mod to move this to the 3.5 edition subforum. You'll get better, more precise feedback there.


Thanks! I'll just re-post, made a few changes.

Quertus
2020-04-19, 08:05 PM
You should ask a mod to move this to the 3.5 edition subforum. You'll get better, more precise feedback there.

Seconded.


I am a long-time player, but new DM. I've only run a few short campaigns and one-shots.

You've lost me already. You've played these, maybe?



I want to try this, but it may be too crazy to work.

The PCs will all play monsters who are part of an invading horde under a very powerful Elder Demon or Dracolich (haven't decided yet). These guys were effectively Lieutenants in an army commanding regiments. The campaign will start after the demonic horde has conquered most of the kingdom and the PCs are laying siege to one of the last strongholds the mortal races have. They win the battle, but something happens at the end. By the end of the first session, they will no longer be evil, alignments flip to mirror opposites, and the PCs motivations and missions will change. Monster characters are powerful, but once the PCs former employer learns of their new leanings, he knows all of their old tricks and powers and will counter accordingly. On top of this, the good creatures of the realm will be outright hostile most of the time, so there will be a good bit of creativity, RP, & skill checks as engaging in combat with good creatures will be a divine no-no.

The campaign will start at effectively level 10, and I'm looking at allowing monsters with CR/HD/LA 9 or lower. Each PC will have at least one base class level, but for players those that choose weaker monsters, I plan to offset it with base class levels that bring CR/HD/LA up to 10. This group has a few optimizers, me being one, but we have a lot of younger players and they are good at toning down. This will be much less toned by default.

The books I'm leaving open for monster race selection al all the Monster Manuals and the sourcebooks for Forgotten Realms. For simplicity sake and the purposes of this thread CR=HD=LA and can be used interchangeably. Any monsters with class levels or class-based spellcasting (like Nymph) have those added to CR/HD/LA for this limit.

I put a few restrictions in place. I may add more, but I need the more input. One or two may be flexible depending on the abilities and character.


None of Challenge Rating, Hit Dice, or Level Adjustment may be higher than 9
Generic MM entries only. No named, elite, versions of monsters like Ashladon or Drizzt
Small, Medium or Large size only
The creatures alignment must be: LE, CN, NE or CE
The monster must have an Intelligence score of 9 or higher
Cannot be an animated or intelligent object and must be able to move and act freely on it's own
No templates on full monsters. You can be half normal humanoid, like an half-orc half-dragon, but not a half-dragon demon. One template limit. Templates can ignore the above alignment restrictions, but the base monster must still be LE, CN, NE or CE
Monsters who have spellcasting ability, like the Nymph's "casts as 7th level Druid" factor the caster level into the CR/HD/LA 9 limit. Using the Nymph, it would be disqualified as it has 6 HD, LA 7, CR 7 and adding 7 to any of those takes it over 9
Creatures with powerful supernatural or spell like abilities like Summon Monster 4+, Teleport, Wish, Miracle, Gate, Planar binding etc. are OK, but they will lose those abilities
Flight, burrow, swim speed, etc. are OK
Possible feats, total skill ranks, race (class) skills, etc. are the same as the entry


Players all start with the equipment in the monster's entry, but any additional starting gold or magic items are determined by class levels.

Limits I'm pretty sure to add:

Must have a Con score
Cannot be incorporeal
Any use of a power that goes against new alignment just doesn't work
No mind-control powers
Also thinking about toning down abilities like SR, DR, and Supernatural or Spell-like abilities, or forgo them entirely as they are no longer the evil being that fueled their abilities


Is this just crazy? Or is it crazy enough to work?

1) will the players know that they're starting evil, but about to turn good? Either can work, but it changes my advice.

2) max(CR/HD/LA)? why make things so complicated for yourself? Were your other GMs known for such complex rules, or do you just love complexity for complexity's sake? (Also, you know that LA is usually added to HD to get ECL, right?)

3) speaking of your limits, why would these weak monsters be the lieutenants? Also, if the PCs are the "right hand men" of the BBEG, doesn't that limit, you know, what kind of level-appropriate threats you can throw at them? Or is this intended less as War game, more as RP?

4) why in the name of Gork would you add racial caster level onto those stats?

5) that's… a lot of rules. Why so many?

6) why "must have a con score"?

7) why "no incorporeal"?

8) why make them lose abilities that they've paid for?

9) why no templates?

10) why no mind control?

11) "evil" does not fuel SR, DR, etc as much as we may want it to.

12) what are you going to do about levels in Cleric or Crusader, when their old Deity will no longer accept them (suggestion: let them convert to new deity, done)

13) what if they take levels in a class that they no longer qualify for? (Suggestion: allow retaining rules)

14) what level will these poor, crippled creatures be counted as for purposes of gaining XP?

-----

So, let's talk about roleplay.

I used to be Gork the Ravager, Kobald Cleric of Taumagustra, God of Destruction. At the climax of our victorious campaign against the infidels, I am suddenly cursed with a conscience. And so are my companions: clack-clack, the awakened advanced HD "that **** crab" Bard; Dewdrop Honeysuckle, Pixie Crusader of YoMomma, goddess of the Blight, bad jokes, and yo-yos; and Snarfalax, a baby blue dragon Monk / Wizard.

Seeing their pain, I attempt to console them, dipping into my emergency rations for a puppy for them to kick. Rather than help, it makes things worse. Dewdrop Honeysuckle, trying to "kick" the puppy into next Christmas, finds that her goddess has forsaken her, as maneuvers don't work. clack-clack bursts into tears at the thought of kicking the poor puppy. Snarfalax tries to use his max ranks in Craft: bad jokes to lighten the mood, but his attempts fall flat.

As I continue to try to minister to the congregation, I realize that I am not just doing my religious duty - I actually care about their suffering. This won't do - I am a Kobald, the child of Dragons, not some milksop human cur! Child blood runs through my veins. But even I am loathe to kick the puppy. Well, I cannot let good puppy go to waste. I mercifully snap it's neck before eating it. The meat just doesn't taste the same when it hasn't been properly tenderized.

"What are we going to do?", Dewdrop Honeysuckle wails. "This is all wrong!" She turns to Snarfalax. "How can we bring a child into this world?" Snarfalax starts to respond with "well, I could show you", but even his eternal razor wit is dampened by our collective moods. They're married, btw. clack-clack danced at their wedding. I conducted the ceremony myself.

Well, that brings things back into focus for me. I will not have their union be in vain! We need information. We only know two ways to get information, and the gods aren't answering, so torturing our enemies it is!

We do our level best not to show our weakness as we tendril back through our troops to the designated prisoner detention / ogre pantry area. If they caught wind of our current state, they would no doubt capitalize on our weakness, and either overthrow us, or ask for a raise. I shudder involuntarily at the thought of giving the army even more man-flesh substitute. None of us are really up for this level of deception, but, fortunately, clack-clack clears us a wide path with his "interpretive dance".

… is that the kind of gameplay you're looking for?

Zaile
2020-04-19, 09:47 PM
Seconded.



You've lost me already. You've played these, maybe?



1) will the players know that they're starting evil, but about to turn good? Either can work, but it changes my advice.

2) max(CR/HD/LA)? why make things so complicated for yourself? Were your other GMs known for such complex rules, or do you just love complexity for complexity's sake? (Also, you know that LA is usually added to HD to get ECL, right?)

3) speaking of your limits, why would these weak monsters be the lieutenants? Also, if the PCs are the "right hand men" of the BBEG, doesn't that limit, you know, what kind of level-appropriate threats you can throw at them? Or is this intended less as War game, more as RP?

4) why in the name of Gork would you add racial caster level onto those stats?

5) that's… a lot of rules. Why so many?

6) why "must have a con score"?

7) why "no incorporeal"?

8) why make them lose abilities that they've paid for?

9) why no templates?

10) why no mind control?

11) "evil" does not fuel SR, DR, etc as much as we may want it to.

12) what are you going to do about levels in Cleric or Crusader, when their old Deity will no longer accept them (suggestion: let them convert to new deity, done)

13) what if they take levels in a class that they no longer qualify for? (Suggestion: allow retaining rules)

14) what level will these poor, crippled creatures be counted as for purposes of gaining XP?

-----

So, let's talk about roleplay.

I used to be Gork the Ravager, Kobald Cleric of Taumagustra, God of Destruction. At the climax of our victorious campaign against the infidels, I am suddenly cursed with a conscience. And so are my companions: clack-clack, the awakened advanced HD "that **** crab" Bard; Dewdrop Honeysuckle, Pixie Crusader of YoMomma, goddess of the Blight, bad jokes, and yo-yos; and Snarfalax, a baby blue dragon Monk / Wizard.

Seeing their pain, I attempt to console them, dipping into my emergency rations for a puppy for them to kick. Rather than help, it makes things worse. Dewdrop Honeysuckle, trying to "kick" the puppy into next Christmas, finds that her goddess has forsaken her, as maneuvers don't work. clack-clack bursts into tears at the thought of kicking the poor puppy. Snarfalax tries to use his max ranks in Craft: bad jokes to lighten the mood, but his attempts fall flat.

As I continue to try to minister to the congregation, I realize that I am not just doing my religious duty - I actually care about their suffering. This won't do - I am a Kobald, the child of Dragons, not some milksop human cur! Child blood runs through my veins. But even I am loathe to kick the puppy. Well, I cannot let good puppy go to waste. I mercifully snap it's neck before eating it. The meat just doesn't taste the same when it hasn't been properly tenderized.

"What are we going to do?", Dewdrop Honeysuckle wails. "This is all wrong!" She turns to Snarfalax. "How can we bring a child into this world?" Snarfalax starts to respond with "well, I could show you", but even his eternal razor wit is dampened by our collective moods. They're married, btw. clack-clack danced at their wedding. I conducted the ceremony myself.

Well, that brings things back into focus for me. I will not have their union be in vain! We need information. We only know two ways to get information, and the gods aren't answering, so torturing our enemies it is!

We do our level best not to show our weakness as we tendril back through our troops to the designated prisoner detention / ogre pantry area. If they caught wind of our current state, they would no doubt capitalize on our weakness, and either overthrow us, or ask for a raise. I shudder involuntarily at the thought of giving the army even more man-flesh substitute. None of us are really up for this level of deception, but, fortunately, clack-clack clears us a wide path with his "interpretive dance".

… is that the kind of gameplay you're looking for?


Thanks for all the feedback. I apologize is my answers aren't too specific. My players spend time on these boards and there are not too many threads on this.

1)They know their alignment will change in the first session. I have a couple players that have issues playing evil characters, and one who is really sensitive about playing an evil one where he has to kill a lot of people, especially innocents. I'd like to save exactly how and why for the story.

2) I am ignoring ECL on purpose. The limit applies to the highest of LA, CR or HD

3) Part of the story. They need to be strong enough to deal with BBEG's other monsters and have the resources to be able to deal with hostile good creatures and the challenges that come with being viewed as monsters.

4) This is one thing I am on the fence about. I may just limit or remove this or tone it down and have it tied to old alignment.

5) Lots of experience with this group, and myself, breaking things. These are experince-driven limits

6&7) I want to be able to challenge them with all 3 saves. Also, again story related, they can't be undead or incorporeal as what happens would normally destroy those creatures. They need too have some sort of conscience and soul.

8) I'm ignoring ECL. May be a mistake, but helps mitigate me taking away making a Wish every day and reducing the campaign challenge to nothing.

9) Half-dragon Succubus. I am allowing one template on a lower CR monster, like orc or kobald, this will count toward to the 9 CR/HD/LA max

10) Was on the fence about mind control. I'm not against it, but what works for an evil monster may not make sense for a good creature. Just a quick look at Angels in MM, none have mind control abilities. I may change these to things like calm emotions, zone of truth, discern lies, etc.

11) Good point

12) A conversion will happen, part of the story. Afterwards alignment restrictions will be a big part of the RP

13) Retraining is absolutely allowed. We play with these rules all the time

14) Since I am ignoring ECL, I am treating them as level 10 and basing the early parts of the campaign off that.

Thanks for the RP example. The direction I'd like the RP it to go is something like:
In order from bottom to top https://www.reddit.com/r/HowToBeAMindReaver/new/
Always gets me https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2mjhz9/what_would_happen_if_an_intelligent_greatsword/

Quertus
2020-04-20, 10:01 AM
2) I am ignoring ECL on purpose. The limit applies to the highest of LA, CR or HD

8) I'm ignoring ECL. May be a mistake, but helps mitigate me taking away making a Wish every day and reducing the campaign challenge to nothing.

9) Half-dragon Succubus. I am allowing one template on a lower CR monster, like orc or kobald, this will count toward to the 9 CR/HD/LA max

10) Was on the fence about mind control. I'm not against it, but what works for an evil monster may not make sense for a good creature. Just a quick look at Angels in MM, none have mind control abilities. I may change these to things like calm emotions, zone of truth, discern lies, etc.

14) Since I am ignoring ECL, I am treating them as level 10 and basing the early parts of the campaign off that.

Thanks for the RP example. The direction I'd like the RP it to go is something like:
In order from bottom to top https://www.reddit.com/r/HowToBeAMindReaver/new/
Always gets me https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2mjhz9/what_would_happen_if_an_intelligent_greatsword/

While those are great stories, you do understand that RPGs rarely meet the standards of community theater, let alone single author fiction, right? Also, do your players know these stories?

I haven't had your experiences, so I don't know what broken things in your past you're fighting against, or what "Half-dragon Succubus" is supposed to signify.

Other than (I'm guessing) allowing PC Illithids to be playable at "level 10", I'm not sure what the advantages of your "9 CR/HD/LA max" system are (unless you count having a new minigame for minmaxers to play). What do you consider the advantages of going this route over normal ECL calculations, or the common "free +X level adjustment" to be? Also, to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly, do you take that max of CR/HD/LA, and then add class levels until you hit 10?

Mind control isn't evil - if anything, it's Lawful.

And, if you used ECL, how could you get Wish at level 10?

Zaile
2020-04-20, 11:30 PM
While those are great stories, you do understand that RPGs rarely meet the standards of community theater, let alone single author fiction, right? Also, do your players know these stories?

I haven't had your experiences, so I don't know what broken things in your past you're fighting against, or what "Half-dragon Succubus" is supposed to signify.

Other than (I'm guessing) allowing PC Illithids to be playable at "level 10", I'm not sure what the advantages of your "9 CR/HD/LA max" system are (unless you count having a new minigame for minmaxers to play). What do you consider the advantages of going this route over normal ECL calculations, or the common "free +X level adjustment" to be? Also, to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly, do you take that max of CR/HD/LA, and then add class levels until you hit 10?

Mind control isn't evil - if anything, it's Lawful.

And, if you used ECL, how could you get Wish at level 10?

Thanks again for the feedback. It was kind of a long response to your initial questions so to clarify:

The players will know the story. Not going for a best-seller, but would like more story & RP in a mechanically more powerful game. There will be a big intro they will be part of. The reason I keep saying that is my players spend time on these boards, and I have one (our normal main DM) who won't play because he's sensitive about playing evil creatures. Don't want to make them do something they feel uneasy with or give them more than I need to.

Half-dragon succubus was a joke, but I would get things like that. At least 4 of us in the group love to break sometimes. One guy built Sephiroth on steroids and had a 50' colossal + great sword that was weightless and incorporeal until he made it solid right before a hit. DM let him do it and he had 25' reach. Templates add another layer that may bee too much for me and some of the younger players. I have another player who has 5 templates in another campaign we are PCs in. DMs in our group are pretty open, but I don't want to have too much to juggle and balance vs each other.

This is the same reason I'm using HD/CR and not ECL. Yes, we are taking CR/HD then adding class levels to get up to 10. It's pretty close to "free +X LA"

As for Wish, Djinni Nobles (10HD) and higher can grant wishes to anyone who "captures" them. So abuse-able in a party. "Oh you caught me, oh no.... Make your wish then I'll go take a nap over there. Oh no you caught me again, no..." I don't know the exact stats of every 3.5 monster in FR and MMs, so this was to prevent early access to some of the most game-breaking abilities. There are a lot of Demons, efretti and celestials that have SP Gate, Wish, Miracle outright, or some more limited version. Trying to limit that. I don't know any DM that would allow Wish before appropriate level.

If you think I'm being too unfair with this, I would appreciate any solutions.

Thanks

Quertus
2020-04-21, 08:34 AM
Thanks again for the feedback.

If you think I'm being too unfair with this, I would appreciate any solutions.

Thanks

Glad to help!

I'm not concerned about you being "unfair", so much as… hmmm… concerned that your rules may hurt "rule of cool" more than it hurts minmaxers.

So, say that one of those new players comes in, and thinks that werewolves are super cool, and the only thing cooler than a werewolf would be a werewolf… with wings! As suboptimal (and not really rules legal) as adding the "winged" template into the already questionable "lycanthrope" template may be, it's something that's banned.

Or, if someone really took a shining to the insectile Ogre straight out of Savage Species, they couldn't take it.

But they could take Illithid into Illithid Savant, or (probably¹) some form of Beholder into Beholder Mage. And those characters could be adventuring alongside (were it not for your "no undead" rule) a Vampire Aristocrat 1 / Monk 1, a Demonhive Queen Binder 2, and a Great Old Master Neogi Sorcerer 4. Or my (de-powered) Kobold Cleric 10, etc. So… not really any more imbalanced parties than you'd find in a normal game. :smalltongue:

When I see a bunch of rules, I tend to follow them to their most broken outcomes. My point is just that your rules do not, to my eyes, do anything to fix balance issues. Thus, I was questioning the point of all those rules.

Some, like the "no undead" rule, are there for other, not balance-related reasons. Assuming that the underlying "cause and effect" are sound, those are cool (and maybe once you've started the game, you can go into more detail about them, just for fun).

But the ones that are there exclusively for balance? Those, I'm asking, "are you sure?". I'm not at your table, so I don't know what you're fighting / how it's going. But I personally find that building better players through the single subtle rule, "balance to the table" to be more manageable (and more stable, especially given the influx of new players) than a whole host of brittle rules.

Most of all, I'm concerned whether the plethora of rules might be intimidating / off-putting to new players, and/or whether some of your specific rules might shut down otherwise balanced and fun concepts that they might have.

But don't take anything I'm saying too seriously - I'm just here to poke at things, to act as a sounding board, to try to get you to look at your content in the light of explaining it to an unfamiliar audience.

One thing I do want to explicitly circle back to, though, is this notion of wanting be able to challenge all 3 saves. Short version, why? If there's, say, a button that needs to be pushed, in the middle of a room filled with poison gas, and dozens of poison-gas-breathing hypnotic vipers, is it really any less cool of a story to have the Vampire Aristocrat / Monk walk in and push the button (and complain about how he used to have servants to push buttons for him, or whatever) than to have the party engineer an aqueduct to wash the room clean, or remove the ceiling and carpet bomb it from above, or to just all charge in and die? Why do you place value on being able to challenge all 3 saves?

¹ assuming that 3e has as many variants of Beholder as 2e did, and your table doesn't recognize the 2e meaning of the phrase "true Beholder".

GrayDeath
2020-04-21, 10:24 AM
Just adding my cents.

The Idea sounds very much like something I would want to play.

The Rules and Limitations though....I mean, under those Rules I (and likely ANY Optimizer) would just choose a 0HD/LA Race and be a Wizard.

Why allow Monster Characters if you remove all advantages but those (and actually even some of these!) that a mediocre Optimized Wizard (or Cleric or....) can have at the Drop of a Hat?

I can understand wanting to not steamroll new palyers, but under those circumstances it might be better for you to simply choose 9 (for such an Udnertaking msut be lawful and hence 9 is important^^) powerful mosnters for your players to choose from, add up to one template, and be done with it?

Quertus
2020-04-21, 04:02 PM
Just adding my cents.

The Idea sounds very much like something I would want to play.

The Rules and Limitations though....I mean, under those Rules I (and likely ANY Optimizer) would just choose a 0HD/LA Race and be a Wizard.

Why allow Monster Characters if you remove all advantages but those (and actually even some of these!) that a mediocre Optimized Wizard (or Cleric or....) can have at the Drop of a Hat?

I can understand wanting to not steamroll new palyers, but under those circumstances it might be better for you to simply choose 9 (for such an Udnertaking msut be lawful and hence 9 is important^^) powerful mosnters for your players to choose from, add up to one template, and be done with it?

Wizard 9 over Illithid Savant or Beholder Mage? :smallconfused:

Agreed that this sounds like a fun concept. I wouldn't have put so much effort into poking at it otherwise. :smalltongue:

Me, I would play… most any of the characters I listed, tbh. Or one of dozens more. Just depends on my mood, and the table. Maybe an Arrow Demon? Or some custom creation?

GrayDeath
2020-04-21, 04:26 PM
Beholders are CR 13 and up, so out.

Illithid Savants are potentially incredibly powerful....but need the fitting setting and be allowed to .... customize their Diet? ^^

A Wizard 10 (remember, 9+at least 1 level of X) or heck, an Unseelie Fae Wizard, will however be good to great at everything already.


Now if it was me, with the above setup and less limitations, I`d probalby go for something totally bogus yet simple, like a half Minotaur CHain Devil Warblade or something, just to show that yes, even without "OP Powers" you can steamroll a lot of stuff. ^^

Or heck, a Half Gold Blue Dragon Wyrmling Crusader against the Tyranny of too big People!" ^^

Zaile
2020-04-21, 04:42 PM
Thanks guys.

I was a bit concerned with the min-maxers, but you're right about taking away from the rule of cool. Love the 2nd Ed reference. "True" anything meant you were screwed. Haven't played that since Jr High.

It's not that they can play monsters, it's that they MUST play monsters. If someone does a Orc barbarian or mostly-wizard that's OK. But everyone seems pretty interested with the monsters.

I eased up a lot of the rules and encouraged flavor over mechanics.

I pretty much whittled it down to:

-Must have all ability and can't have a "--" non-ability score. So intelligent undead like vampires would be OK, but they will have a Con score! (total side note, but this site spell-checks "undead" lol)
I wanted to challenge them, but also, to me, having a Con (really all) scores, means you have a soul. They still get all those juicy creature-type resistances and immensities.

-The Wish/Miracle/Gate level powers just need to be level appropriate. Anything a lvl 10 X couldn't have they will lose probably temporarily, or have it changed to a "good-er" version

-No incorporeal, not because of the movement freedom, but because most or these have ability drain and negative level powers with a mere touch. A level 10 caster can do it a couple times a day, but not with every touch while always untouchable. I may allow it if someone has an idea, but have to change that.

GrayDeath
2020-04-22, 02:47 PM
That sounds very reasonable.

Although I am interested in how you will pull the Undeads Immunities (as even if they have a con score, they are for example immune to Fort Saves unless inanimate Objects would also be affected, ergo are you pulling most of the Undeads Immunities but leave them their weaknesses?).

Looking forward to hearing how it went.

Peelee
2020-04-24, 08:20 PM
The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Duplicate thread closed.