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SunderedWorldDM
2020-04-19, 06:20 PM
Howdy howdy! So I've just started this campaign where the PCs are pirates who are drawn into this epic world-ending quest type thing, it's kind of going to be a cross between Pirates of the Caribbean and Lord of the Ring. I've just had my characters encounter some foreshadowing, and in the next couple of sessions the characters are going to get their hands on a prophecy and a map and then we'll really be off to the races. The idea for the campaign is that they'll have to hunt after these clues and artifacts to some unknown end, a treasure or some sealed away creature or the True Name of God or whatever, and so there's various other parties also hunting for this thing as well, though nobody can quite agree on what it is.

So long story short, I have a villain who I don't think is villainous enough for the PCs to be opposed to them. Their name is the Lord of Blades, inspiration for the name taken from Eberron, and they were the first ever Warforged built. Shortly after the Godswars, the humanoid's first great work of artifice was this construct, who was carefully sealed away and will only awaken when the scales of balance are disrupted (sort of like the epitome of LN). Over the course of the campaign, this balance will be disrupted enough to cause the Lord of Blades to awaken, and my plan is for him to act as one of the PC's epic antagonists- he believes that the Hunt (the maps and clues and such) will lead to a locked away evil godling thing, and that he must succeed on the Hunt by any means to do battle with this godling. (Still trying to decide if the LoB uses male or gender neutral pronouns. Or maybe even it. Who knows?)

The problem is, I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how to make this character a bad guy. Here are my current ideas, but I'd love to hear everyone's say on the matter as to how to make this cosmic balance a villain without making them necessarily evil.
1) Collateral damage. This is the first thing I thought of, and the first thing I abandoned. It feels kind of cheap to me to have the PCs want to kill this guy just because he's relentless. For one, the PCs are pirates, so they don't have a strong moral code to tell them that this should be stopped, and for two, if he's saving the world, a few burnt villages and flayed people isn't too big a deal. Putting this on the back burner.
2) Evil followers. While the LoB isn't inherently evil, he has a cult, the Brethren of Blades, that are like Hexblade warlocks in his service, and they're all sorts of shady. In a way, they're a sort of apocalypse cult. I like this one more, but it takes the focus away from the LoB themself, and doesn't make them the villain, just their followers.
3) Consequences. This is the one I like the most right now. The idea is that when the LoB and Evil Godling (TM) do battle, it'll be a cataclysm that'll destroy a good chunk of the world, or at least cause irreversible damage to the state of affairs in the world. So while the LoB may be doing the right thing long term in destroying the godling, the immediate aftermath of the godling being unlocked is monumentally catastrophic. I like this one because it gives the PCs the incentive to destroy the LoB (because it can't be reasoned with, its view is absolute), but doesn't sacrifice the inherent concept of blind balance.
4) Corruption. One that I just thought of is that perhaps after years of misuse and being worshiped as a god has warped them into a sense of grandeur. The LoB thinks themself a god, capable of no wrong, being merciless and cruel in their pursuit of the hunt and reinforced by their insane cultists. Maybe the PCs can redeem them somehow, do some magical sort of factory reset? But then they become an ally, and I don't want the PCs to ever have a force that powerful on their side. Maybe the damage is irreversible, and they only find that out after they complete the reset? I feel like this one could work, but it's not fleshed out enough.

TL;DR: How do I make a LN enemy focused on restoring a cosmic balance a villainous threat without resorting to "oh, it causes too much collateral damage"? Especially if they are in pursuit of a legitimate threat to reality?

Segev
2020-04-19, 06:59 PM
"He wants to summon/release an evil god-thing" should probably be pretty villainous. Sure, he wants to fight and kill it, but what if he's overestimating his power compared to its power, and it wins?

They're pirates; you can make him antagonistic without making him a bad guy. Make him The Good Guy. A privateer who enforces justice on the high seas, and thwarts (or at least tries to thwart) their various villainous deeds. Make him genuinely nice, boistrous, All-Might-like, but convinced that he has to beat this evil god-thing to save the world...and utterly blind to any thought that just leaving it sealed away is an option. (Perhaps he's convinced it isn't an option, and that it will escape eventually, but few agree with him.)

THEChanger
2020-04-19, 07:07 PM
So with pirates, you're likely going to have Player Characters that are selfish. It goes with the territory. Getting the players to care about the villain - which is what it seems like is at the heart of your question - means the Lord of Blades has to go after something they care about.

So you have this sealed away epic evil that the LoB needs to go kill. But the LoB can't do it alone. He has his cult, but they are few and far between. He needs resources. He needs infrastructure. He needs an army.

And wouldn't you know it, we have all these people living on these islands and sailing the seas on the way. Their help is necessary, so the LoB is going to acquire it. The LoB isn't evil, so he'll compensate people for their time and ensure they are well taken care of. But the LoB, in this scenario, is a conqueror. Lands under their control are tightly regulated, criminal activities punished harshly. The freedoms that allow for a thriving pirate society are squashed, and everyone turned to the singular purpose of finding this thing and defeating it once and for all. Maybe this happened well before the campaign started - the efficient but oppressive empire versus the ragtag group of morally flexible..."heroes" is a time honored tradition. That's where I'd go with this.

SunderedWorldDM
2020-04-19, 07:17 PM
"He wants to summon/release an evil god-thing" should probably be pretty villainous. Sure, he wants to fight and kill it, but what if he's overestimating his power compared to its power, and it wins?

They're pirates; you can make him antagonistic without making him a bad guy. Make him The Good Guy. A privateer who enforces justice on the high seas, and thwarts (or at least tries to thwart) their various villainous deeds. Make him genuinely nice, boistrous, All-Might-like, but convinced that he has to beat this evil god-thing to save the world...and utterly blind to any thought that just leaving it sealed away is an option. (Perhaps he's convinced it isn't an option, and that it will escape eventually, but few agree with him.)
An interesting angle for sure, but I want to play up the idea of blind justice as an impersonal, powerful and removed force. Though I think I might steal these ideas for a smaller villain, because I'm interested to see how my PCs feel about this hypothetical person! Maybe some self-styled vigilante Pirate Hunter, and whenever they think they've done away with that nasty little doo-gooder who keeps taking their loot and redistributing it to the destitute some background NPC takes off their disguise and- oh, the ideas flow! That's really cool, thank you!


So with pirates, you're likely going to have Player Characters that are selfish. It goes with the territory. Getting the players to care about the villain - which is what it seems like is at the heart of your question - means the Lord of Blades has to go after something they care about.

So you have this sealed away epic evil that the LoB needs to go kill. But the LoB can't do it alone. He has his cult, but they are few and far between. He needs resources. He needs infrastructure. He needs an army.

And wouldn't you know it, we have all these people living on these islands and sailing the seas on the way. Their help is necessary, so the LoB is going to acquire it. The LoB isn't evil, so he'll compensate people for their time and ensure they are well taken care of. But the LoB, in this scenario, is a conqueror. Lands under their control are tightly regulated, criminal activities punished harshly. The freedoms that allow for a thriving pirate society are squashed, and everyone turned to the singular purpose of finding this thing and defeating it once and for all. Maybe this happened well before the campaign started - the efficient but oppressive empire versus the ragtag group of morally flexible..."heroes" is a time honored tradition. That's where I'd go with this.
Now THIS is a lot more my speed! Thanks, THEChanger. I really like the idea of the LoB as a conqueror, a persuader, a methodical sort of empire-builder. I think it would be really cool for the Brethren of Blades to act as a police force on these newly-conscripted islands, and the PCs as enemies f a growing sort of military state sounds like a really fun angle. Let me stew on this one, it seems phenomenal! Unfortunately, the campaign is already started, and I really want the PCs to be round when the LoB first wakes up to deal with this threat, but in some ways, that makes this militant expansion a lot more workable in terms of "can the PCs stab this until it goes away". Thanks so much! I love it!

Keep these great ideas flowing! Already I'm seeing the benefit of more brains on the issue...

ZeroGear
2020-04-20, 01:14 AM
This is me just thinking off the top of my head, but you're presenting the Lord of Blades as the epitome of LN, correct?
In that case, I have 2 suggestions:

1) Make him (it?) detached. Present the LoB as a being that doesn't look at the consequences he causes during the Hunt. By this I don't mean just collateral damage or the possible world ending, but the small and mid-sized fallout as well.
Let's say one of the clues would lead him through a specific city, and it gets razed to the ground in the process. That would inadvertently cause regular and black market trade to get disrupted, meaning that it could cut off a supply line the PCs frequent. Or, even worse, it destroys the shop of the only brewer of that specialty rum one of your PCs loves so much.
Despite this, the LoB doesn't care, he found what he was looking for, so why would it matter that the whole port went up in flames? What is the home of the best shipwrights compared to a quest to destroy an ancient evil? Details, details.

2) Make it personal. Going along with my previous example of inconveniencing the PCs indirectly, make them hate the guy for personal reasons. I mean, nothing creates an arch enemy faster than getting your ship wrecked because it had a clue that the LoB wanted on it. Especially if said LoB doesn't even acknowledge your character as a threat and just causally throws him overboard like a sack of rotting potatoes, like your group isn't even worth the trouble of finishing off.
Do this enough times and it's sure to get under their skin.

SunderedWorldDM
2020-04-20, 11:44 AM
This is me just thinking off the top of my head, but you're presenting the Lord of Blades as the epitome of LN, correct?
In that case, I have 2 suggestions:

1) Make him (it?) detached. Present the LoB as a being that doesn't look at the consequences he causes during the Hunt. By this I don't mean just collateral damage or the possible world ending, but the small and mid-sized fallout as well.
Let's say one of the clues would lead him through a specific city, and it gets razed to the ground in the process. That would inadvertently cause regular and black market trade to get disrupted, meaning that it could cut off a supply line the PCs frequent. Or, even worse, it destroys the shop of the only brewer of that specialty rum one of your PCs loves so much.
Despite this, the LoB doesn't care, he found what he was looking for, so why would it matter that the whole port went up in flames? What is the home of the best shipwrights compared to a quest to destroy an ancient evil? Details, details.
Though some of this gets a bit close to "collateral" territory, I do like the idea of instead of attacking the PCs emotionally, attack their abilities to be economically successful. A return to port where trade is frozen while the LoB hunts for the magic item he needs, a ship attacking because the LoB mentioned that the PCs were nuisances while he robbed them, yeah, that's a cool way to show the impact this guy has!


2) Make it personal. Going along with my previous example of inconveniencing the PCs indirectly, make them hate the guy for personal reasons. I mean, nothing creates an arch enemy faster than getting your ship wrecked because it had a clue that the LoB wanted on it. Especially if said LoB doesn't even acknowledge your character as a threat and just causally throws him overboard like a sack of rotting potatoes, like your group isn't even worth the trouble of finishing off.
Do this enough times and it's sure to get under their skin.
Now this is interesting. I have always loved villains who belittle the PCs and make them feel small... the only problem is I've never been able to execute it without the PCs mocking them mercilessly or accidentally succeeding somehow (or cheapening the whole exchange by making it too clear he has Plot Armor)... maybe that's another question for the Playground on down the line.

Thanks so much!

Bucky
2020-04-20, 12:18 PM
The LoB knows exactly the value of a human life. It's one one-billionth of an army. Since he's expecting to sacrifice most of the army anyway...

You could also introduce alternative facts. Have a major cultural group that believes the sealed evil isn't actually evil, but necessary. Naturally, they'll speak out against the LoB, who goes out of his way to punish them for their "lies".

Kaptin Keen
2020-04-20, 12:41 PM
This made me think of Vhailor (https://torment.fandom.com/wiki/Vhailor) - an npc from Planescape: Torment.

He's very JUSTICE!! He tried to bring justice to a lawless town, but fell into a trap, and was locked in a room. And then he waited. No one knows precisely how long, but longer than his frail mortal body could withstand. But JUSTICE doesn't recognise such frailties.

So as a sort of personality profile, Vhailor may hold some inspiration. He's LN. And he's definitely scary - I remember having him on my team, and being constantly scared of triggering him.

He's not ... a villain, as such?! He's just much too fanatical to really be anything but a villain.

Segev
2020-04-20, 01:31 PM
Let the PCs belittle, mock, or even thwart him in doing harm to their property. This is where the relentlessness and pragmatism of LN comes in: He retreats early and comes back later, preferably when they're not there. He hires mercenaries to get it for him.

Heck, maybe the first time they hear of him, he hires THEM to get something he failed to from some recalcitrant obstacles to his mission.

Don't have him blow up towns and such for no reason, either. That makes him seem like a (possibly comedic) sociopath. He just doesn't care about the damage while pursuing his goal.

The dock didn't burn down because he burnt it for his clue. The dock was sacked by pirates who burned it down because he didn't let them bar his entry, and shattered their defense measures. The damage he did was...not minimal, but recoverable, and wouldn't have meant much, except that it opened the door (rather literally) to further harm.

The PCs' ship didn't sink because he sank it to get the clue. It sank because he evicted the cook (along with the rest of the crew) while the stove was still running, and the ship caught fire after he left.

Khedrac
2020-04-20, 01:47 PM
This may be too evil for you, but a version of the not caring about collateral damage can be taken to extremes - the "whatever is necessary" approach crossed with "the simplest method".

This is best explained with an example: A prophecy (or whatever) indicates that someone either living or soon to be born in a city could become a future problem. One approach would be to search the city to try to locate the person and then deal with them. The "simple" approach is to surround the city, kill everyone, and salt the ruins to ensure that no one moves in to restart the city.

Some people might argue that this could be justified if the prophecied person would become the greatest champion of their enemy, but for them just to be a potential future obstacle? Someone who would do this as their first choice needs stopping...

Segev
2020-04-20, 01:57 PM
This may be too evil for you, but a version of the not caring about collateral damage can be taken to extremes - the "whatever is necessary" approach crossed with "the simplest method".

This is best explained with an example: A prophecy (or whatever) indicates that someone either living or soon to be born in a city could become a future problem. One approach would be to search the city to try to locate the person and then deal with them. The "simple" approach is to surround the city, kill everyone, and salt the ruins to ensure that no one moves in to restart the city.

Some people might argue that this could be justified if the prophecied person would become the greatest champion of their enemy, but for them just to be a potential future obstacle? Someone who would do this as their first choice needs stopping...

And is a bit foolishly wasteful, especially when dealing with prophecies; it all but guarantees there'll be some hidden survivor who comes after him as his mortal enemy for what he did to the guy's home. Self-fulfilling prophecies are nasty that way.

SunderedWorldDM
2020-04-20, 09:46 PM
Let the PCs belittle, mock, or even thwart him in doing harm to their property. This is where the relentlessness and pragmatism of LN comes in: He retreats early and comes back later, preferably when they're not there. He hires mercenaries to get it for him.

Heck, maybe the first time they hear of him, he hires THEM to get something he failed to from some recalcitrant obstacles to his mission.

Don't have him blow up towns and such for no reason, either. That makes him seem like a (possibly comedic) sociopath. He just doesn't care about the damage while pursuing his goal.

The dock didn't burn down because he burnt it for his clue. The dock was sacked by pirates who burned it down because he didn't let them bar his entry, and shattered their defense measures. The damage he did was...not minimal, but recoverable, and wouldn't have meant much, except that it opened the door (rather literally) to further harm.

The PCs' ship didn't sink because he sank it to get the clue. It sank because he evicted the cook (along with the rest of the crew) while the stove was still running, and the ship caught fire after he left.
This is interesting, and another great way to make the PCs (and everyone else) hate this guy! I should really be making a list...


The LoB knows exactly the value of a human life. It's one one-billionth of an army. Since he's expecting to sacrifice most of the army anyway...

You could also introduce alternative facts. Have a major cultural group that believes the sealed evil isn't actually evil, but necessary. Naturally, they'll speak out against the LoB, who goes out of his way to punish them for their "lies".
Ooh, that's interesting! I think I know who might fill that sort of niche...


This made me think of Vhailor (https://torment.fandom.com/wiki/Vhailor) - an npc from Planescape: Torment.

He's very JUSTICE!! He tried to bring justice to a lawless town, but fell into a trap, and was locked in a room. And then he waited. No one knows precisely how long, but longer than his frail mortal body could withstand. But JUSTICE doesn't recognise such frailties.

So as a sort of personality profile, Vhailor may hold some inspiration. He's LN. And he's definitely scary - I remember having him on my team, and being constantly scared of triggering him.

He's not ... a villain, as such?! He's just much too fanatical to really be anything but a villain.
That's a really cool villain, and almost exactly what I'm looking for! Thanks!


This may be too evil for you, but a version of the not caring about collateral damage can be taken to extremes - the "whatever is necessary" approach crossed with "the simplest method".

This is best explained with an example: A prophecy (or whatever) indicates that someone either living or soon to be born in a city could become a future problem. One approach would be to search the city to try to locate the person and then deal with them. The "simple" approach is to surround the city, kill everyone, and salt the ruins to ensure that no one moves in to restart the city.

Some people might argue that this could be justified if the prophecied person would become the greatest champion of their enemy, but for them just to be a potential future obstacle? Someone who would do this as their first choice needs stopping...

And is a bit foolishly wasteful, especially when dealing with prophecies; it all but guarantees there'll be some hidden survivor who comes after him as his mortal enemy for what he did to the guy's home. Self-fulfilling prophecies are nasty that way.
Not too evil at all, in fact, that's one of the things that I was planning on doing! That's an interesting idea of the literal interpretation of a prophecy causing it to come true. Maybe there's some prediction that can only be averted by creative, non-linear thinking, and if the LoB tries to prevent it will certainly come true...

Angrith
2020-04-20, 09:55 PM
If you want him to be the PCs' antagonist, then make it personal, especially since they're the pirate type. If there's an npc they like, find an excuse for the LoB to kill them. If the PCs are on a quest for LOOT!, have the LoB get there first to fund his armies. The more the LoB hurts the party personally, the more of a villain he'll seem. Of course, balance this out. If he gets to the treasure first, make sure the party finds another treasure not long after. The LoB as a major antagonist who shapes the world is definitely a threat, but the LoB who thwarts the party directly is an enemy.

CombatBunny
2020-04-30, 04:16 PM
I don’t know If I got the idea clearly, but I have this in mind.

LoB knows that every many years humanity is wiped out from earth due to its corruption and evilness. In the time that he has lived among humans, he hasn’t witnessed a corruption so bad for this to happen, in fact he has grown to understand and appreciate this world, so he wonders why he/she has awakened.

As he realizes the PCs actions, he discovers that through their search for treasure, they are forcing this great power to awaken, so LoB will try his best to stop anyone from continuing this quest at any cost.

During PC adventures, they discover some pirates or other villains that have fall in madness and corruption, due to some artifacts of great power. For example, a pirate that has a magic wooden leg, a king with a sword, etc.

Each time they defeat/kill one of these villains, the artifact disappears. LoB doesn’t know it, but these artifacts are part of himself that are slowly gathering helped by humans. Shall all the pieces be uncovered, they will attach to LoB creating his true form and converting him in the force itself, which won’t have control of his actions and whose only instinct will be to destroy humanity once again.

SunderedWorldDM
2020-04-30, 08:07 PM
I don’t know If I got the idea clearly, but I have this in mind.

LoB knows that every many years humanity is wiped out from earth due to its corruption and evilness. In the time that he has lived among humans, he hasn’t witnessed a corruption so bad for this to happen, in fact he has grown to understand and appreciate this world, so he wonders why he/she has awakened.

As he realizes the PCs actions, he discovers that through their search for treasure, they are forcing this great power to awaken, so LoB will try his best to stop anyone from continuing this quest at any cost.

During PC adventures, they discover some pirates or other villains that have fall in madness and corruption, due to some artifacts of great power. For example, a pirate that has a magic wooden leg, a king with a sword, etc.

Each time they defeat/kill one of these villains, the artifact disappears. LoB doesn’t know it, but these artifacts are part of himself that are slowly gathering helped by humans. Shall all the pieces be uncovered, they will attach to LoB creating his true form and converting him in the force itself, which won’t have control of his actions and whose only instinct will be to destroy humanity once again.
Damn, that's good! Thanks so much!