What are some alternatives to power armor for techy superheroes?

[moonfly7]

Been reading a lot of comics and superhero fiction recently and it feels like every archetypal "tech" hero builds a strength enhancing armored suit to fight crime. This feels more than a little over done to me, especially because most of them are like massive tanks with legs, not even slim and maneuverable like Ironmans armor.
So that got me thinking: what would be some other quintessential super tech that a super genius could use as their mainstay? Specifically asking about someone like Tony Stark who isn't really a fighter without his tech, not like Batman whose gadgets are more of a secondary advantage too his abilities.

[Kantaki]

Worm has some nice variety when it comes to tech heroes.
Every Tinker has their speciality they focus on.
Bakuda has her "bombs" that range from unusually effective explosives over exotic effects to outright power replication.
Armsmaster is basically a halberd wielding Batman*, with all kind on gadgets crammed into his equipment.
Dragon's "suits" are closer to small, dragonshaped aircraft than any kind of armour.
Other tinkers focus on vehicles or AI or cybernetics.

Sure, most of them build themselves armor if they can- protecting yourself is only reasonable after all , but it's not really on Ironman level powered armor.

Dabbler from Grrl Power might count, but she's more a "a bit of everything" hero than a "tech" hero.

I think the problem is that most tech heroes will inevitably build power armor of some kind because, well, they're squishy, they need protection.
So they build something.
And if you're already building yourself armor you might as well cram everything you can into it so you don't need to carry it around.

*In the "has a tool for almost everything" sense, not the "crammed several lifetimes worth of training into a few years" sense

[moonfly7]

Worm has some nice variety when it comes to tech heroes.
Every Tinker has their speciality they focus on.
Bakuda has her "bombs" that range from unusually effective explosives over exotic effects to outright power replication.
Armsmaster is basically a halberd wielding Batman*, with all kind on gadgets crammed into his equipment.
Dragon's "suits" are closer to small, dragonshaped aircraft than any kind of armour.
Other tinkers focus on vehicles or AI or cybernetics.

Sure, most of them build themselves armor if they can- protecting yourself is only reasonable after all , but it's not really on Ironman level powered armor.

Dabbler from Grrl Power might count, but she's more a "a bit of everything" hero than a "tech" hero.

I think the problem is that most tech heroes will inevitably build power armor of some kind because, well, they're squishy, they need protection.
So they build something.
And if you're already building yourself armor you might as well cram everything you can into it so you don't need to carry it around.

*In the "has a tool for almost everything" sense, not the "crammed several lifetimes worth of training into a few years" sense

Yeah, kinda forgot about Worm if I'm honest. But I'm more asking about characters who are just general super geniuses, not like Tinkers from Worm or the Artificers from Villainy and other bad career choices. I'm talking like people who've got like 20 degrees in different types of engineering.
But actually the main reason I ask is because I feel like power armor is ridiculously inefficient. Now I know that in most media nowadays they incorporate emergy shields and stuff, but most of the time it boils down to the fact that power armor is slow, clumsy, and no matter how thick you make the shell, it's going to probably amount to bubkiss against a tank piercing rocket or equivalent power, so I feel like there has to be a better option for non-powered geniuses than "get in a walking tank" when it has so many weaknesses. Ironmans suit isn't clunky and slow, but it doesn't have actual shielding and relies on metal alone so not very effective.

[comicshorse]

From DC Comics there's Mister Terrific

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Terrific_(Michael_Holt)

Mainly his tech manifests as floating robotic spheres ( T-Spheres) that accompany him and can act as weapons, flight units, detection gear, recording, etc

[Strigon]

Well, you kind of have to define the criteria.
Who's this superhero going up against? If they're a friendly-neighbourhood Spiderman type of hero, then power armour (of the Iron Man variety) makes sense; you don't need more than a few mm of armour to protect yourself against most street-level threats, and it allows you to retain the delicate maneuvering you'd need to avoid collateral damage.
The heavier the combatant, the heavier the suit needs to be. Hence Lex Luthor's typical bulky anti-superman mechs.

Fundamentally, though, a supergenius will still need some form of protection. That either means armour, or fighting remotely through drones. You can't really have a superhero habitually using a tank to fight, as that would not only kill the targets outright, but leave lots of collateral damage. Drones simply aren't heroic enough for most media, so they don't work nearly as well.

I suppose a sort of personal hovertank, armed with non-lethal energy weapons could be used. It still doesn't feel very heroic, which is part of the appeal of power armour. But if you're asking for realistic alternatives, ignoring technological limitations, then a tank using some sort of "repulsor" technology, sized for one person, with crowd control weapons and gadgets would do the trick.

Really though, there are three main questions that need to be asked:
Where are they doing their work?
What does most of their work consist of?
Do they have to look heroic doing it?

[Seppl]

Maybe a high-tech helicopter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airwolf)? Or a talking car (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight_Rider)? If we go for "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" levels of tech we could also have a personal assistant drone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booster_Gold) that does the heavy lifting. (Yes, Booster has powered armor, too, but you could have such a character with just the drone(s). See many of The Culture novels for a non-superhero example)

[moonfly7]

From DC Comics there's Mister Terrific

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Terrific_(Michael_Holt)

Mainly his tech manifests as floating robotic spheres ( T-Spheres) that accompany him and can act as weapons, flight units, detection gear, recording, etc
I know about Mr. Terrific but he completely slipped my mind. Your right, he's a great example that I completely missed.


Really though, there are three main questions that need to be asked:
Where are they doing their work?
What does most of their work consist of?
Do they have to look heroic doing it?
This is beyond helpful and I think super important. Thank you. As for your other points about needing armor, your definitely right, unless your like doctor impossible from soon I will be invincible your definitely gonna need protection. I just dont think "power armor" is the best answer, it's just the one were used too. To answer the questions in order though:
1. Working in mainly cities and occasionally in less populated areas, assume high passerby and building quantity.
2. Stopping moderate to powerful superhumans. I'd like to point out that if you were stopping low level superhumans or regular criminals then a suit would be even more overkill.
3. Preferably yes, so giant hover tank or drone aren't really gonna cover it for heroics. Good logical answers though, and in a more realistic capacity those are better options.

With those limiters in mind I still feel that there has to be an option that offers protection and utility without being a half a ton of metal power armor, a tank with legs isn't really effective IMO, and it's subject to a lot of weaknesses, like putting a table cloth over its cameras(Doctor Dire anyone?) And many more.

[Eldan]

Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind for me is... why is a super genius even fighting on the front lines? He's smarter than his opponent. He should be good at information gathering and therefore, choosing the battlefield and finding his enemy's weaknesses.

Hack your opponents and make their information public. Get surveillance on them and report their movements to the police. Steal their bank accounts.

Get drones. Or long-range artillery. If your enemy is some other kind of superhero, the last thing you want to do as a genius with an expensive, fragile brain is get punched by some brute.

Or hire and then coordinate mercenaries.

[The Glyphstone]

If comic book science is in play, why not force fields/shields? Build the projectors into a vest/harness of some kind over a puncture-resistant bodysuit made from Science!Kevlar. Scale the range/radius up or down as desired for how powerful your science hero needs to be, and if they have an offensive application as well or not.

[moonfly7]

If comic book science is in play, why not force fields/shields? Build the projectors into a vest/harness of some kind over a puncture-resistant bodysuit made from Science!Kevlar. Scale the range/radius up or down as desired for how powerful your science hero needs to be, and if they have an offensive application as well or not.

Good answer honestly. You don't even need the half ton of scrap metal if you've got an energy shield.

[Daimbert]

Hank Pym for a while moved from shrinking and growing himself to shrinking and then regrowing a wide assortment of gadgets that he'd deploy at various times. In one fight against the Wasp, he went from growing defense -- a plexiglass shield -- to a weapon -- three flying laser drones -- and won it by essentially outthinking her.

[Giggling Ghast]

Overwatch is your friend here, since ALL of its heroes/villains are tech-based. Not counting the ones who are wearing power armour and the ones who are actual robots (ie. omnics), there’s Mei (freeze ray), Symettra (makes constructs out of hard light), Sombra (specializes in hacking), Tracer (displaced in time, uses device to speed up or slow down time), Sigma (failed experiment granted him gravity control) and a bunch of others who use bows or guns or gunbows that I’m not even going to bother listing.

[Telonius]

Possibly relevant comic (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090506#.Xp3gv8hKjDc). Don't let the mechanical engineers have all the fun.

[Lord Raziere]

How about VR-controlling a robot body to fight for you? just designed a hollow robot shell, then stay in your tech base while you control your robot to go iron-man around without actually being in them, and if the face gets blown off, no secret identity being revealed!

or you can design a sleek nanotube weave jumpsuit instead, flexible and capable of great protection, heck maybe even combine that with programmable matter, be your disguise kit to with all sorts of clothes available so that you can have a business suit that protects you just as well

depending on far into implausibility you want to stay, there are other ways of protection:

-your tech superhero could have a device to manipulate their very existence on a quantum level, phasing in and out of existence to evade attacks

-or better yet, a quantum device to make the ATTACKS phase out of existence, avoids potentially destroying yourself.

-if you want to get into social mad science, then making attacking you taboo is the way to go! people won't even WANT to attack you! its against their culture now or at least their psychology.

[Rockphed]

The titular heroes in Big Hero 6 are a supergenius, 3 regular geniuses, a robot, and a comic book nerd. The 3 regular geniuses all wear armor, but mostly they use it to attach their specialties to. One of them is a chemist who fights by carting around a purse that can give her a wide range of useful chemicals at the touch of a button.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Hack your opponents and make their information public. Get surveillance on them and report their movements to the police. Steal their bank accounts.

Super-hacker was my first thought too. Making mech armor requires your hero to not just be a super-genius, but also have the manufacturing capability to make your armor. Which I suppose you could buy once you drained the bad guys’ accounts, but using that money to buy cameras and spy on the bad guys, then alert the police seems more efficient and less obvious. A lot of bad guys would be a LOT less dangerous if they couldn’t afford to buy guns, hire mooks, bribe officials, etc. And ‘ethical hacking’ is a real career option; your hero can help, say, hospitals secure their data so the bad guys can’t blackmail people with it. And have your hero’s secret identity get paid for doing it, even.

Also going to second super-chemist/alchemist - Captain America got his powers from a super serum, well, someone had to make that serum yes? Or make acid to melt through walls, compounds to instantly corrode enemy gizmos, artificial pheromones to attract swarms of rats to destroy the enemy food supplies...

[Velaryon]

You could always go the Mysterio route and use holo-projectors to mess with the opponents' perceptions. You don't need armor if you leave the bad guys shooting/swinging at something that's not even there. Seems to me this would pair well with a super-genius hero who is able to out-think and outmaneuver his rogues' gallery.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Look at some of the weird crap Hank McCoy of the X-Men comes up with. Or a lot of the random stuff used by Flash's Rogues.

[Strigon]

You could always go the Mysterio route and use holo-projectors to mess with the opponents' perceptions. You don't need armor if you leave the bad guys shooting/swinging at something that's not even there. Seems to me this would pair well with a super-genius hero who is able to out-think and outmaneuver his rogues' gallery.

Something about making people shoot blindly in an occupied city feels more like a supervillain shtick than a superhero one to me....

[LibraryOgre]

From DC Comics there's Mister Terrific

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mister_Terrific_(Michael_Holt)

Mainly his tech manifests as floating robotic spheres ( T-Spheres) that accompany him and can act as weapons, flight units, detection gear, recording, etc

More generally, drones; semi-autonomous robots that they can have do things.

I think power armor becomes a natural evolution because your tech superheroes are usually superheroes, and so are out in the front lines and don't want to get killed, so they build armor. Once they build armor, it's only natural to start sticking your super gadgets to the armor.

But, other tech heroes to think about:

Oracle was a woman in a wheelchair. She was also intel and overwatch, hacking into security systems to give her eyes on the team, and a deep rolodex to call on for help.

Booster Gold mostly uses a Flight Ring and a forcefield belt.

Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) had armor, but he was more of a gadget guy.

Forge has some cybernetics, but he's also a super-inventor.

[HandofShadows]

Couple Spider Man villains fit the bill. Doctor Octopus has his arms and often had a lot of high tech equipment around. The Green Goblin has his glider and a bunch of tricked out bombs and other equipment.

[Sapphire Guard]

Assuming you have to be on the battlefield in person, you're basically stuck with armour.

You have human capabilities beyond tech genius. Avoiding attacks is going to involve dodging, hiding, or blocking/tanking attacks. The problem with dodging and hiding is that people looking for you might hit something else.

Everything else involves not being there in person, be it drones, hacking, or setting traps.

[Dargaron]

\
But actually the main reason I ask is because I feel like power armor is ridiculously inefficient. Now I know that in most media nowadays they incorporate emergy shields and stuff, but most of the time it boils down to the fact that power armor is slow, clumsy, and no matter how thick you make the shell, it's going to probably amount to bubkiss against a tank piercing rocket or equivalent power, so I feel like there has to be a better option for non-powered geniuses than "get in a walking tank" when it has so many weaknesses. Ironmans suit isn't clunky and slow, but it doesn't have actual shielding and relies on metal alone so not very effective.

Are you subjecting the other members of this super-inhabited world to the same scrutiny? E.g., How do the super-tough "flying brick" archetypes react when hit with a tank-piercing rocket? Because if their body plan is anything like a regular human, then even the classic "thrown into a brick wall by an explosion" would probably result in major concussions, as their brain impacts the inside of their skull. So either no one is capable of tanking a Javelin to the face (in which case, why is the tech hero even trying?), or some supers are capable to tanking missiles, in which case the tech hero uses whatever advance in material science allows them to do the same to make his/her armor stronger.

Seconding the point Eldan made: why is the tech guy engaging in personal combat in the first place? What's preventing him/her from equipping someone else (presumably more qualified) with the same gear and having them fight (in other words, the "why doesn't Iron Man give Captain America a repulsor gauntlet?" question).

The powered armor is only slow and clumsy if it isn't sufficiently "powered." As long as whatever control mechanism is precise enough, there shouldn't be any reason that the motors involved can't do their job and counteract the weight of the armor. I mean, that's the whole point of powered armor (as opposed to really heavy non-powered armor, like a Bomb Suit): it offsets the weight of the protective parts and/or provides mechanical assistance with physical tasks (like lifting, grasping and possibly punching). Since you responded affirmatively to "force fields," you clearly aren't concerned with keeping the tech guy's equipment plausible for modern power supplies, so putting some hyper-efficient motors and neural interfaces into the suit should mean that the half-ton of scrap metal dances like a butterfly (maybe running into some problems with inertia, but if force fields are on the table, why not inertial dampeners?)

[Prime32]

You could go about this the other way - give the character a power which they developed their tech around. Most obvious answer is electricity, which could be used to power or hack things. There was a manga called Iron Knight about a post-apocalypse guy who could grow a goblin-like metal body around himself and generate heat/fire - he used this to take up blacksmithing, collecting fragments of his armor and forging them into crude swords, shields and handgonnes (using his own powers as the firing mechanism).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Something about making people shoot blindly in an occupied city feels more like a supervillain shtick than a superhero one to me....

I think it would depend on how you use it. The simple solution is to put the hologram-decoy in front of a wall or other similarly durable piece of the battlefield. Then all the goons with guns are going to do is empty their clip, hopefully making them less dangerous to subdue. And if you could make hostages look like stacks of cardboard boxes, or flat out invisible so it looks like they escaped, then it's not likely the mooks are going to keep guarding them. You could also keep informants safe by disguising them as someone else, or bluff bad guys by, say, making it look like there are more cops then there actually are. Not saying it couldn't be abused, but that's true of supergenius (and superpowers) in general.

[Strigon]

I think it would depend on how you use it. The simple solution is to put the hologram-decoy in front of a wall or other similarly durable piece of the battlefield. Then all the goons with guns are going to do is empty their clip, hopefully making them less dangerous to subdue. And if you could make hostages look like stacks of cardboard boxes, or flat out invisible so it looks like they escaped, then it's not likely the mooks are going to keep guarding them. You could also keep informants safe by disguising them as someone else, or bluff bad guys by, say, making it look like there are more cops then there actually are. Not saying it couldn't be abused, but that's true of supergenius (and superpowers) in general.

There are certainly some things you can do to mitigate the risk, but any plan that involves getting the bad guys to deliberately shoot anything - even a brick wall - is a very risky plan in the long run, and I'm pretty sure any police officer in the world will back me up on this one.
Bullets penetrate things, ricochet, fragment, and in general just behave chaotically once they hit an object. Pull that trick of getting them to shoot a brick wall enough, and somebody will get hurt. No question.

Now, you may respond that the same could be said of any other plan - after all, any time you have criminals with guns, there's a non-zero chance someone could get hurt, and all you can do is find the least risky option. And I'd agree. But ultimately, having them shoot anything at all will never be the least risky option. Your other ideas don't have that problem, but once people figure out your illusion games, they become less reliable. Not useless, of course, but not as reliable as, say, Superman. After all, it doesn't really matter if the bad guy knows how hard Superman can punch; he's still going to get hit just as hard.

Which brings me to another point in defense of power armour: melee combat. The truth is, while tanks and other similar designs are a lot better suited to front line combat, they can only really use ranged weapons. Ranged weapons - especially those meant to take down superpowered individuals, have a high risk of collateral damage when they miss. Punches don't. Even superpowered fistfights, where people get tossed through walls and buildings, are a lot less dangerous to passersby than a firefight of similar caliber. If you can do it, hand-to-hand combat will always be a safer bet, and that's much easier to do in powered armour than a tank.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Biology geniuses have a tendency to genetically engineer themselves rather than build power armor. Essentially the same effect with different aesthetics (and a far higher rate of insanity as a side-effect). Mostly villains, actually, now that I think about it. Albert Wesker via the Prototype virus in Resident Evil, The Lizard from Marvel, stuff like that.

Spider-Man's most iconic power, his webs, are actually technological, so I think that counts. And he's always tinkering with them to get new variants for whatever foe he's up against that week.

You also get the occasional sniper, with surveillance/vision enhancing tech and a tricked out gun.

Shadowrun has Riggers, who link up with both vehicles and drones to operate them, and of course hackers.

Similarly, a lot of the technology in Tower of God is dedicated to surveillance and battlefield support. The entire role of Light-Bearer is basically dedicated to this, and some Scouts take a similar route.

But yeah, building something to up your survivability just makes sense if you don't already have a super power dedicated to that.

[Giggling Ghast]

Possibly relevant comic (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090506#.Xp3gv8hKjDc). Don't let the mechanical engineers have all the fun.

Come to think of it, weren’t all the Vaults in Fallout examples of mad sociological science?

[moonfly7]

So plenty of people have pointed out the use of drones and energy shields as the main options. Those are honestly the bedt ones and it irks me to no end that I can't use them. The character I'm asking the question about is limited in materials and knowledge to more hard and traditional mechanics and engineering: think more piston and servos and other more traditional hardware and machines than energy fields and wireless connections and freezerays.
So you see my predicament: really the only option I've allowed myself is power armor but I don't want to use power armor. And I feel like the perfect alternatives on the tip of my tongue after reading all of this and can't seem to find it, any more help after the admittedly ridiculously difficult add ons to the criteria?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

So plenty of people have pointed out the use of drones and energy shields as the main options. Those are honestly the bedt ones and it irks me to no end that I can't use them. The character I'm asking the question about is limited in materials and knowledge to more hard and traditional mechanics and engineering: think more piston and servos and other more traditional hardware and machines than energy fields and wireless connections and freezerays.
So you see my predicament: really the only option I've allowed myself is power armor but I don't want to use power armor. And I feel like the perfect alternatives on the tip of my tongue after reading all of this and can't seem to find it, any more help after the admittedly ridiculously difficult add ons to the criteria?

Hmm, you could go the Doctor Octopus route. All mechanical, but with the emphasis more on mobility and offense than defense.

Or you could go big and just make the character the pilot of a full-on vehicle. Even multiple vehicles for different situations; batmobile-like car as the standard, tricked out motorcycle for tight spaces, hovercraft for air, tank for rush hour traffic...

And there's always firearms. A fancy gun with multiple firing modes, non-lethal options, the whole works. It could even physically reassemble itself to suit whatever purpose you need. This could also work well in combination with one of the above to keep you mobile and at sufficient range without your opponents avoiding you with cover or distance.

Finally, any tech hero worth their salt should have a utility belt of random single-use gadgets, some of which might never even come up.

[Tvtyrant]

One of the symbiotes from Spiderman but made of nanobots would be one way, they can make weapons and additional parts by eating metal along the way. I have an alien zombie story where Joan of Arc gets a sentient nanite swarm suit to help fight space alien zombies (think Animorphs but 90s edgy lol.)

Bio-suits and grafted additions of various kinds. Xenomorph/zerg/tyranid style. Rather like Kerrigan but using bioweapons over psychic powers. Or go further and make a form that can birth any creature the scientist can conceive of, so they can rapidly design creatures to combat threats but they need time to eat and grow to full size.

The genius might just have an army of clones with equipment, and expects them to die a lot. Why bother with clunky power armor when you can just be Batman without plot armor? And who else can you trust but yourself?

[Durkoala]

I once built a character for a mutants and masterminds game that was a 1910s-20s tech genius who discovered how to make a steampunk artificial intelligence and promptly built a robot that was his main presence on the battlefield while he directed it from a safe(r) distance. I likened it to steampunk Digimon, but didn't get the chance to play them.

If you can, you could try building the 'main' hero as the robot and the inventor as an overwatch sidekick, and make the 'sidekick' the main character in RP, but I don't know the problems you're having at your table that are pushing ou towards power armour.

[ben-zayb]

Go crazy with Clarke's third law.

Magic has shapeshifting, tech has genetic engineering, mutation, and nanotech.

Magic has invisibility, tech has light projection and manipulation.

Magic has divine healing, tech has rapid cellular reconstruction and assimilation

Magic has charms, tech has alchemy and psychoactive substances


If you are familiar with D&D homebrews in the playground, there's this "science" based subsystem called Grammarie that can pretty much replace large scale magic. Might want to check that out for inspiration.

[moonfly7]

I once built a character for a mutants and masterminds game that was a 1910s-20s tech genius who discovered how to make a steampunk artificial intelligence and promptly built a robot that was his main presence on the battlefield while he directed it from a safe(r) distance. I likened it to steampunk Digimon, but didn't get the chance to play them.

If you can, you could try building the 'main' hero as the robot and the inventor as an overwatch sidekick, and make the 'sidekick' the main character in RP, but I don't know the problems you're having at your table that are pushing ou towards power armour.

Heh heh.....funny story that. This isn't actually about a MNM game, although I am running one currently. This idea is actually for a book I'm writing, and I feel like power armor is an overdone concept. But my issue is that the character in question is your quintessential mechanical genius with no formal engineering knowledge in a world where super tech is really only used by the few heroes who've invented it, IE not an option. So far I have it planned that he does build a suit for the purpose of fighting fires, but it's not built for combat because it basically uses real world lost one and kinematics to move(even though this setup likely wouldn't work in real life) so it's slow as Christmas and he can't make it faster. So a legitimate plot point in the story is supposed to be him abandoning the suit for a better alternative for combat, but as you can see I've so far hit a blank.
It's not really in character" or even possible, for him to build most of the stuff suggested, although they've actually helped me a lot because I now have things the few other tech heroes use that he can point to and say "nobody else uses a suit for a reason". Honestly I know I'm the one making this hard so I get it if people become frustrated but every time I read your suggestions I get a little closer to the solution.
Also while chemistry is an option genetics isnt, because he doesn't have the training.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You might want to take a step back to the pulp days and try a flight pack of some kind. Three dimensions to play with make you much harder to hit, you get some mobility and it's not terribly complex. Traditionally this is a rocket pack of some kind, but vectored thrust or even micro autogyro are possibilities.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Come to think of it, weren’t all the Vaults in Fallout examples of mad sociological science?

Most, but not all of them. If I recall correctly, there were a handful of control Vaults, and apparantly one where the Overseer got wind of what was going on, and managed to turn the tables on the scientists.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Heh heh.....funny story that. This isn't actually about a MNM game, although I am running one currently. This idea is actually for a book I'm writing, and I feel like power armor is an overdone concept. But my issue is that the character in question is your quintessential mechanical genius with no formal engineering knowledge in a world where super tech is really only used by the few heroes who've invented it, IE not an option. So far I have it planned that he does build a suit for the purpose of fighting fires, but it's not built for combat because it basically uses real world lost one and kinematics to move(even though this setup likely wouldn't work in real life) so it's slow as Christmas and he can't make it faster. So a legitimate plot point in the story is supposed to be him abandoning the suit for a better alternative for combat, but as you can see I've so far hit a blank.
It's not really in character" or even possible, for him to build most of the stuff suggested, although they've actually helped me a lot because I now have things the few other tech heroes use that he can point to and say "nobody else uses a suit for a reason". Honestly I know I'm the one making this hard so I get it if people become frustrated but every time I read your suggestions I get a little closer to the solution.
Also while chemistry is an option genetics isnt, because he doesn't have the training.

...martial arts and tasers? Stun baton or whatever? Portable smoke machines for a strategic escape? Saying he doesn't like the suit because it's slow says to me he has some traditional combat skills (I acknowledge I'm probably missing a lot of context). Maybe make some Portal-style long-fall boots for jumping off buildings...but then you're basically building a suit again. :smallconfused: Maybe some kind of sonar-gun to map out buildings or infrared...basically be 'Daredevil, but using tech instead of super senses'?

Side note, if you need more justification for not using a suit of armor, having a Magneto-expy or something like rust monsters exist might do the trick. And depending on how big the suit would be, what it was made of and how it was made, if the buildings aren't built to support that much metal it might end up smashing through floors by accident.

[HandofShadows]

If you are familiar with D&D homebrews in the playground, there's this "science" based subsystem called Grammarie that can pretty much replace large scale magic. Might want to check that out for inspiration.

A link to it is Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?320298-My-Little-Gramarist-SCIENCE!-is-Magic-Gramarie-Discussion&p=16626526#post16626526) if anyone is interested. That is an old thread and there might be a newer one I didn't find.

[TeChameleon]

Something like grenades or dispensers of expanding, fast-hardening foam could work- sort of like Spider-Man's webbing, but bulkier, and while you couldn't use the foam for transport, you could use it for area-denial, entrapment, even short-term terrain alteration. It'd need to be compressed way beyond realism to allow him to transport enough to be useful (or have some... mechanically improbable... crystalline molecular lattice or something that would allow it to expand ludicrously while still retaining some strength), but hey, comic-book science.

Alternatively, you could have sort of... self-deploying mechanical walls, maybe from an independently piloted vehicle of some kind, that would maintain a techy feel while allowing for a strong defense?

[moonfly7]

Something like grenades or dispensers of expanding, fast-hardening foam could work- sort of like Spider-Man's webbing, but bulkier, and while you couldn't use the foam for transport, you could use it for area-denial, entrapment, even short-term terrain alteration. It'd need to be compressed way beyond realism to allow him to transport enough to be useful (or have some... mechanically improbable... crystalline molecular lattice or something that would allow it to expand ludicrously while still retaining some strength), but hey, comic-book science.

Alternatively, you could have sort of... self-deploying mechanical walls, maybe from an independently piloted vehicle of some kind, that would maintain a techy feel while allowing for a strong defense?

If it's ok with you imma steal that foam idea.
As for the protection issue I found a reasonable(comic book) solution: graphene. Specifically double layered graphed sheets called Dimene(might have butchered the spelling) it's light and flexible but when it races force it's as tough as diamond, it's also hyper conductive of heat and electricity. And the cherry on top? You can (technically) make graphed with a blender, dish soap, and graphite. Since you can actually do this in real life(the problem is separating the graphene from left over graphite) it's completely possible for my hero to create home-made graphene for a hyper tough body armor, not exactly an alternative to power armor but a way to do it that I thinks at least semi unique and appeals to how the character feels in my mind.
Ps, TeChameleon, I really love the foam idea. The main villain I have in mind is pyrokinetic so this is absolutely perfect to fight him.

[Rockphed]

Something like grenades or dispensers of expanding, fast-hardening foam could work- sort of like Spider-Man's webbing, but bulkier, and while you couldn't use the foam for transport, you could use it for area-denial, entrapment, even short-term terrain alteration. It'd need to be compressed way beyond realism to allow him to transport enough to be useful (or have some... mechanically improbable... crystalline molecular lattice or something that would allow it to expand ludicrously while still retaining some strength), but hey, comic-book science.

Alternatively, you could have sort of... self-deploying mechanical walls, maybe from an independently piloted vehicle of some kind, that would maintain a techy feel while allowing for a strong defense?

The aforementioned chemist from big hero 6 mostly makes defensive bubbles and cushions with a little ice and piles of gloop to control the villains. And, yes, it is a little ridiculous how much loop she throws around in battle. She even uses it to move around, a la frozone.

[Dargaron]

If it's ok with you imma steal that foam idea.
As for the protection issue I found a reasonable(comic book) solution: graphene. Specifically double layered graphed sheets called Dimene(might have butchered the spelling) it's light and flexible but when it races force it's as tough as diamond, it's also hyper conductive of heat and electricity. And the cherry on top? You can (technically) make graphed with a blender, dish soap, and graphite. Since you can actually do this in real life(the problem is separating the graphene from left over graphite) it's completely possible for my hero to create home-made graphene for a hyper tough body armor, not exactly an alternative to power armor but a way to do it that I thinks at least semi unique and appeals to how the character feels in my mind.
Ps, TeChameleon, I really love the foam idea. The main villain I have in mind is pyrokinetic so this is absolutely perfect to fight him.

I'm confused: your initial standard was " no matter how thick you make the shell, it's going to probably amount to bubkiss against a tank piercing rocket or equivalent power." It doesn't particularly matter how hard your armor is: what matters is "where does the energy go"? Basically, there are two components to non-powered armor like you're describing: the "hardness" determines how difficult it is for a sharp thing to actually penetrate the armor and strike the human underneath, while the amount of padding underneath determines how much force is dispersed before being transferred to said human. The gambeson is just as important as the plate.

It doesn't matter what material you strap to a human body: if it's taking a missile to the chest, and doesn't have some way safely "give" then that human body is breaking bones. So you'll need something absorbent and equally superscience underneath to deal with blunt force.

[Velaryon]

Something about making people shoot blindly in an occupied city feels more like a supervillain shtick than a superhero one to me....

Superman and other heroes regularly level entire buildings in their fights. Many of those buildings are occupied. Collateral damage has its place in a superhero story, and its potential can serve as a great source of tension.

Plus, misdirecting fire via holo-projections does not have to equal indiscriminate blind firing, either. Perhaps one tragic accident leads the hero to develop more complex methods of misdirection.

Either way though, OP's lack of engagement on this point tells me it's not the direction they're looking for, so I'm not gonna pursue it further.

[TeChameleon]

If it's ok with you imma steal that foam idea.
As for the protection issue I found a reasonable(comic book) solution: graphene. Specifically double layered graphed sheets called Dimene(might have butchered the spelling) it's light and flexible but when it races force it's as tough as diamond, it's also hyper conductive of heat and electricity. And the cherry on top? You can (technically) make graphed with a blender, dish soap, and graphite. Since you can actually do this in real life(the problem is separating the graphene from left over graphite) it's completely possible for my hero to create home-made graphene for a hyper tough body armor, not exactly an alternative to power armor but a way to do it that I thinks at least semi unique and appeals to how the character feels in my mind.
Ps, TeChameleon, I really love the foam idea. The main villain I have in mind is pyrokinetic so this is absolutely perfect to fight him.

Heh. If I didn't want you to use it, I wouldn't have suggested it. Glad you like it!


It doesn't matter what material you strap to a human body: if it's taking a missile to the chest, and doesn't have some way safely "give" then that human body is breaking bones. So you'll need something absorbent and equally superscience underneath to deal with blunt force.

...

If you want to go all-in on the foam idea, you could incorporate it into the armour- reactive goo-bomb armour (assuming you had some way to keep it from sticking to yourself, which is something I'm actually fairly sure can be handwaved with the graphene...) would actually be rather useful in a super-brawl. Legally-distinct-from-the-Hulk punches you and ends up shoving you a little ways and his fist encased in enough foam to adhere it to himself and him to half the surrounding landscape would probably be at least moderately handy :smalltongue:

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If you want to go all-in on the foam idea, you could incorporate it into the armour- reactive goo-bomb armour (assuming you had some way to keep it from sticking to yourself, which is something I'm actually fairly sure can be handwaved with the graphene...) would actually be rather useful in a super-brawl. Legally-distinct-from-the-Hulk punches you and ends up shoving you a little ways and his fist encased in enough foam to adhere it to himself and him to half the surrounding landscape would probably be at least moderately handy :smalltongue:

Like some of the Mannequin variants from the Slaughterhouse 9000 arc. Whenever anything damaged their armor, water burst out and immediately froze, encasing whatever had hit them and sealing the hole in one fell swoop.

[HandofShadows]

Something like grenades or dispensers of expanding, fast-hardening foam could work- sort of like Spider-Man's webbing, but bulkier, and while you couldn't use the foam for transport, you could use it for area-denial, entrapment, even short-term terrain alteration. It'd need to be compressed way beyond realism to allow him to transport enough to be useful (or have some... mechanically improbable... crystalline molecular lattice or something that would allow it to expand ludicrously while still retaining some strength), but hey, comic-book science.

Alternatively, you could have sort of... self-deploying mechanical walls, maybe from an independently piloted vehicle of some kind, that would maintain a techy feel while allowing for a strong defense?

Chemically expanding foams are a real thing today. (https://youtu.be/K28I5WCwcak?t=236) With scfi fi tech there is a lot that could be done. :smallcool:

[moonfly7]

I'm confused: your initial standard was " no matter how thick you make the shell, it's going to probably amount to bubkiss against a tank piercing rocket or equivalent power." It doesn't particularly matter how hard your armor is: what matters is "where does the energy go"? Basically, there are two components to non-powered armor like you're describing: the "hardness" determines how difficult it is for a sharp thing to actually penetrate the armor and strike the human underneath, while the amount of padding underneath determines how much force is dispersed before being transferred to said human. The gambeson is just as important as the plate.

It doesn't matter what material you strap to a human body: if it's taking a missile to the chest, and doesn't have some way safely "give" then that human body is breaking bones. So you'll need something absorbent and equally superscience underneath to deal with blunt force.
Actually my original issue was that power armor is clunky and slow and couldn't stop a tank piercing rocket. Granted the graphed isn't perfect but it's much better than normal power armor protection wise besides the loss of weight for stopping rockets and the like. 3 things with that:
1. There are easily ways to work around that, and some excellent ones just below actually.
2. If ypur running around in a light, very unassuming grey suit much less people are going to think "rockets" to kill you, at least initially. Maybe later on explosives would be a go to if you didn't have a well known contingency, but people would be less likely to use rockets on a small figure than on a tank with legs.
3. This is comic book logic still, albeight still using the real world for help in places(although Gwen Stacy died of a logical application of whiplash so, who knows where comic logic is these days?)

Heh. If I didn't want you to use it, I wouldn't have suggested it. Glad you like it!



...

If you want to go all-in on the foam idea, you could incorporate it into the armour- reactive goo-bomb armour (assuming you had some way to keep it from sticking to yourself, which is something I'm actually fairly sure can be handwaved with the graphene...) would actually be rather useful in a super-brawl. Legally-distinct-from-the-Hulk punches you and ends up shoving you a little ways and his fist encased in enough foam to adhere it to himself and him to half the surrounding landscape would probably be at least moderately handy :smalltongue:


Chemically expanding foams are a real thing today. (https://youtu.be/K28I5WCwcak?t=236) With scfi fi tech there is a lot that could be done. :smallcool:

So the foam is brilliant, the foam encasing attack is honestly a good idea, not exactly sure how you'd get out to emit itself unless there were holes all over the armor, but I can figure something out.
What I like the most about the foam is that it's crazy versatile, at least reasonably possible, probably not unreasonable for someone with knowledge to make on their own, and highly versatile.
We can have all kinds of foam:
Fire resistant foam
Foam designed to quick harden to trap opponents, better than handcuffs and could make great shields.
Non-conductive foam
Foam that is still soft when it becomes a solid for catching people
Constantly sticky foam
And my personal favourite:
Foam designed to harden almost immediatly on contact with air designed to be fired in small amounts, basically becoming bullets after leaving the nozzel
And the list probably continues.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The foam sounds like the gel grenades from--either D20 Modern or D20 Future's armory books.

[moonfly7]

The foam sounds like the gel grenades from--either D20 Modern or D20 Future's armory books.

A little bit yeah. Been a bit since I played those, so I don't have a 100% good refference. But I remember using those grenades before and some foams could he similare.

[Rogar Demonblud]

We always used them to create a wall behind people we wanted to trap and annihilate (the game was WH40K with the numbers filed off). I could maybe find the stats somewhere in my old files if the OP wanted.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

And my personal favourite:
Foam designed to harden almost immediatly on contact with air designed to be fired in small amounts, basically becoming bullets after leaving the nozzel


The only issue I see with this is that being foam, wouldn't it not weigh very much and thus basically be a Nerf projectile? Not that that couldn't be useful, it could play the pebble in the old 'make a noise to distract the guards' scenario.

What about adding a topical sedative to your foam bullets, or something to make the bad guys itch or stink as a distraction? Maybe add ink or dye to them, to make the bad guys easier to find if they escape?

[Melayl]

There's also this (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3023905/The-magic-liquid-stop-bullet-tracks-New-material-set-lead-lightweight-body.html). It'd make surviving some of those impacts more plausible.

[moonfly7]

...martial arts and tasers? Stun baton or whatever? Portable smoke machines for a strategic escape? Saying he doesn't like the suit because it's slow says to me he has some traditional combat skills (I acknowledge I'm probably missing a lot of context). Maybe make some Portal-style long-fall boots for jumping off buildings...but then you're basically building a suit again. :smallconfused: Maybe some kind of sonar-gun to map out buildings or infrared...basically be 'Daredevil, but using tech instead of super senses'?

Side note, if you need more justification for not using a suit of armor, having a Magneto-expy or something like rust monsters exist might do the trick. And depending on how big the suit would be, what it was made of and how it was made, if the buildings aren't built to support that much metal it might end up smashing through floors by accident.
So I'd like to apologise for not replying to this, I actually missed it earlier so I'm sorry it took me this long to notice.
The character doesn't really have combat experience per say, and he doesn't have the capabilities to be a daredevil or Batman like character(wouldn't daredevil with tech instead of powers just be Batman anyways?). As I mentioned before he builds a suit to help fireman better fight fires. The thing he has is clunky and slow and designed to lift flaming degree to heavy for normal people(he recently lost lives in a fire when he couldn't move a beam from a door so he built this) on the trial night of the suit he encounters a pyrokinetic who started the fire and who attacks him, the suits slowness almost gets him killed several times and he would've died of it wasn't for the help of others. So that's why he doesn't want to just build another suit. He didn't design it for combat and he doesn't know how to since its all basically slow hydraulics and electric pullies.

The only issue I see with this is that being foam, wouldn't it not weigh very much and thus basically be a Nerf projectile? Not that that couldn't be useful, it could play the pebble in the old 'make a noise to distract the guards' scenario.

What about adding a topical sedative to your foam bullets, or something to make the bad guys itch or stink as a distraction? Maybe add ink or dye to them, to make the bad guys easier to find if they escape?
I was imagining like super dense pellets fired at high velocity. Not enough to pierce armor or kill anybody, but it'd slow you down and hurt like heck. It could also be designed to dissolve and release a tranquilizer, which is an idea I just had. Maybe have some with GPS chips kinda like what you were getting at. Die packs to blind foes.

There's also this (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3023905/The-magic-liquid-stop-bullet-tracks-New-material-set-lead-lightweight-body.html). It'd make surviving some of those impacts more plausible.
I actually was looking into gels and stuff originally for a better protective armor, and I almost went with it till I remembered abput graphene, as the gels I found weren't that good. But this stuff underneath the graphite wouldn't really weigh that much more and would add both shock absorption and additional layer of protection in case something breached the graphene. Although considering that it's supposedly 10 times stronger than steel(might be incorrect I got it off a site on the internet so who knows) I don't know if the tell would fair much better. Excellent suggestion though and I'm probably gonna use it. In fact I originally wanted a liquid like this and couldn't find it so I'm VERY happy.

[TeChameleon]

So the foam is brilliant, the foam encasing attack is honestly a good idea, not exactly sure how you'd get out to emit itself unless there were holes all over the armor, but I can figure something out.

Oh- was thinking of it more as a defense, rather than an attack- have a thin layer of outer armour, then a layer of foam, then the inner armour (or more alternating layers of armour/foam if you want to go with a step-down system of armouring)- something hits the character hard enough to crack the armour, *SPLORT*, immobilized attacker/attack and immediate shock-absorption, since the foam would absorb a good deal of the incoming energy and also push the character out of the way a little.

[moonfly7]

Oh- was thinking of it more as a defense, rather than an attack- have a thin layer of outer armour, then a layer of foam, then the inner armour (or more alternating layers of armour/foam if you want to go with a step-down system of armouring)- something hits the character hard enough to crack the armour, *SPLORT*, immobilized attacker/attack and immediate shock-absorption, since the foam would absorb a good deal of the incoming energy and also push the character out of the way a little.

could work, especially if it's a substance that has a volatile reaction when it hits air and it expands rapidly from a liquidey substance to a a solid, heavy or sticky foam(some of that stuff can be hard as crap) and the force pulled it off the armor, it'd be pretty nasty.

[LibraryOgre]

The only issue I see with this is that being foam, wouldn't it not weigh very much and thus basically be a Nerf projectile? Not that that couldn't be useful, it could play the pebble in the old 'make a noise to distract the guards' scenario.

What about adding a topical sedative to your foam bullets, or something to make the bad guys itch or stink as a distraction? Maybe add ink or dye to them, to make the bad guys easier to find if they escape?

Depends on what the foam is made of.

Throw a grenade, and it creates a foam of fullerene... basically, every bubble you collapse in the foam saps it of energy, and while you can collapse a lot of bubbles, it saps the energy quickly... and, with enough unobtanium in the mix, and it will use the energy to reinflate some collapsed bubbles.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I got curious, so I dug out the folder for the game and found I did indeed write down the entry for the superadhesive grenade.


Grenade, Superadhesive
Superadhesive is an adhesive resin that expands rapidly and hardens almost instantly in contact with air. Its primary use is as a nonlethal crowd-control option, but some of its earliest actual uses in the field yielded surprising uses--notably as an instant temporary barricade.
The superadhesive generated by the grenade fills a 5-foot square, creating a barrier nearly as solid as a concrete wall. The hardened superadhesive has hardness 8 and 60 hit points, with a break DC of 20. Anyone caught in the square can attempt to break out with a Strength check, or he can await rescued by someone who deals damage to the hardened foam from outside.
The foam gradually becomes brittle enough to break more easily (losing 1 point of hardness every 10 minutes). Alternately, it can be dissolved by the Solvaway chemical as a full round action (see page 70 of D20 Future).

Hope this is useful to you.

[moonfly7]

I got curious, so I dug out the folder for the game and found I did indeed write down the entry for the superadhesive grenade.



Hope this is useful to you.

This is basically what I had in mind for some of the foam, like quick harden disolvablr concrete. Only, it would probably be like neon orange because foam.

[Wraith]

With reference to super-intelligent comic book characters who DON'T use suits of armour, my first thought would be a Marvel character named Amadeus Cho.

He's 17(ish) years old and is the 7th most intelligent person in the world - considering that list also includes Bruce Banner, Reed Richards, Tony Stark, Hank McCoy and Dr.Doom, that's a pretty impressive achievement.

His gimmick is that he is so smart that he does everything on the fly, because he can just think up an outlandish but vaguely-plausible solution with his 500 IQ points.
If some guy comes at him in a mech-suit, he pulls out a laptop and hacks it's software to make it dance the Macarena. If a tank is turning its turret towards him, he works out the precise mathematical angle needed wherein throwing a penny would lodge itself in the turret's gears and burn itself out trying to turn. If he's locked in a room with no doors or windows, he knows the exact chemical formula needed to turn a bottle of lighter fluid and pack of cigarettes into a small explosive and make an exit.

So basically he's MacGyver (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Series/MacGyver1985), except that he's exceptionally book-smart as well as innovative. You'd kind of need to free-form roleplay what such a character can do in any given situation, but anything you wanted to try would probably work "because comics".

[Wardog]

What about some sort of exoframe (like power armour, but with less/no armour and more gadgetry), as demonstrated by classic 80s cartoon/toy advert The Centurions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn49zxXRHhA):

[moonfly7]

What about some sort of exoframe (like power armour, but with less/no armour and more gadgetry), as demonstrated by classic 80s cartoon/toy advert The Centurions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn49zxXRHhA):

Yeah I'm going with something similar to that, lighter exosuit instead of bulky armor.

[The Glyphstone]

Any responsible aspiring superhero does need to consider the marketing, after all. A good toy line can do wonders for paying the super science material bills.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also property damage and personal injury lawsuits.

[moonfly7]

Any responsible aspiring superhero does need to consider the marketing, after all. A good toy line can do wonders for paying the super science material bills.


Also property damage and personal injury lawsuits.

Both valid points. What if you were a hero who ran an insurance company that insured against hero damage?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given the premiums necessary to avoid bankruptcy, I'm pretty sure you'd be a villain.

[Tvtyrant]

Both valid points. What if you were a hero who ran an insurance company that insured against hero damage?

I think it would be more likely to be an SRO where each hero has to pay into a Hero Fund that pays out damages. The SRO sells mercandise and comic books/news stories/etc and funds the SRO with them, very tidy. Unregulated heroes would be illegal vigilantes, the SRO would answer to a government agency that lets the SRO enforce the rules and fines the SRO when they aren't followed.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Both valid points. What if you were a hero who ran an insurance company that insured against hero damage?

I would think that would be a conflict of interest. :smallconfused:

[moonfly7]

I would think that would be a conflict of interest. :smallconfused:

See I thought so too right, but it totally isn't. See an insurance company only works when it pays out as little as possible. So if your policy insures people whose houses are destroyed by your fights, it's not a conflict of interest. Because the more houses you destroy the more money you loose. If anything it would make you be more careful and mindful. Maybe even cause you to steer fights away from houses you insure.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Sounds more like a reason to find a justification to deny the payout. You should name the company Insuracare.

[Kantaki]

See I thought so too right, but it totally isn't. See an insurance company only works when it pays out as little as possible. So if your policy insures people whose houses are destroyed by your fights, it's not a conflict of interest. Because the more houses you destroy the more money you loose. If anything it would make you be more careful and mindful. Maybe even cause you to steer fights away from houses you insure.

A protection racket then?
People's houses won't end up as collateral damage as long as they pay you?
Very heroic that.:smallamused::smalltongue:

[moonfly7]

A protection racket then?
People's houses won't end up as collateral damage as long as they pay you?
Very heroic that.:smallamused::smalltongue:
Nah, doesn't work unless your not the one insuring it. It's more like a marketing ploy: "I'm so sure I can protect your home's I'm willing to bet against it!"