How do I kill a Dragon without arcane casting in the party- Practical OP

[Madara]

So our party is playing through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil and we just came across a Very Old Green Dragon.

We're level 10 and I just teleported us out.

How can we load up to beat this thing? We've got a good pile of cash and our DM isn't the type to use its spellcasting. That being said, we're still facing something that hits hard. Party composition is:

Cloistered Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor/Contemplative (Sun, Glory, Travel)
Warblade
Viable Archer Build with splitting
Rogue/Assassin/Swordsage
Rogue

As you can see, I'm the only caster. I have Scribe Scroll and the plan is to kinda do a party scry-and-die but without using SoD because of SR and good Saves. Scrolls only cost money, not XP to craft. So I can have a ton of buffs up on the party.

So how do you kill a big old dragon when you don't have a wizard?

[Jack_McSnatch]

I've never actually seen the need for a wizard. I've killed lots of dragons in parties without them. What you do is forget scry-and-die, forget trying to nuke it from orbit or whatever.

Buff your party, buff their weapons, and stab the thing to death.

You, as a cleric, have plenty of defenses you can put on your party to make them dragon killing machines. Strengthen their saves against fear, give them energy resistance, make sure you all have some form of ranged attack. It sounds like you gm isn't optimizing or anything, so don't worry about complexities, and just stab the thing. There's one of it and five of you.

However -and I will probably get lampooned for this but I'll say it anyway- you are the only cleric, and probably the best way you specifically can help the party, is heal. Buff, heal, buff, heal, buff, heal, and start stabbing the dragon yourself when all the buffing is done.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

The obvious suggestion is Antidragon Aura (a level 3 Cleric spell which provides excellent buffs against Dragons) and potions or scrolls of Resist Energy (acid).

A Very Old Green Dragon is way over your CR. However, this seems like a moderately optimized party and a GM who's kind with monster tactics, so there's definitely hope.
Suggestions :

Limit its mobility as much as possible
Focus on pumping up your numbers and beating it to death
Make some scrolls of Heal for the Rogues to UMD (you'll be needing them)
Summon as much help as you can afford (Archons, etc), unless that's too annoying to run at the table


Another nice but difficult thing would be to bait the Dragon into another fight before you Scry-and-Die it, to use up some of its spell slots. This really depends on the setting and location, though - if there isn't a convenient idiot your party's rogues/face can try to trick/talk into fighting a Dragon, then this won't work. I haven't played Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, so I can't say if this is a realistic suggestion or not.

[Kaleph]

If you feel lucky, assay spell resistance + shivering touch (the "touch" part is the one requesting luck). It's feasible, tho.

[Xervous]

Downdraft is a no-save-just-lose ideal for this situation. As a huge dragon it has a 50ft breath weapon. Downdraft plummets targets 50ft on a successful save. Assay spell resistance will give you a 75% chance of landing it in absence of any other CL boosters

Layer on energy protection and energy resistance. Put appropriate buff spells on the ideal damage delivery vehicle here (archer) and for the love of Pelor don’t end your turn in the dragon’s reach if you don’t have to. Unable to strafe with its breath weapon you shouldn’t have too much trouble dancing around its 40 ft movement. Play keep away with the archer and you’ll win on pure numbers by virtue of the dragon never getting to full attack. Anklets of translocation and the tumble skill will let party members avoid AoOs. Percentile miss chances are your most efficient option vs its high attack bonus. If power attack isn’t in play you won’t have to worry about the bite hitting too hard.

To ensure the kill the hardest part is going to be knowing when the group needs to crowd in on the dragon to prevent it from fleeing. Engaging it indoors is a probabilistic win so long as the ceiling height prevents it from clearing 50ft.

This is of course assuming it doesn’t cast spells as outlined, and an optimized archer build refers to something that will be pulling 60+ dpr with buffs against the dragon’s high AC. With additional buffed party members it shouldn’t take more than 6 rounds to carve through the dragon’s 360 hp, subjecting the party to 2 breath weapons, 4 bites / some full attacks while pushing in for the kill. The breath weapons whiff against energy protection (failing two averages out to 6 damage through energy protection). Miss chance and not lining yourself up for full attacks gives you plenty of room to stay healthy and conscious.

Clump the party to bait its breath weapon on the first round. Then cast remove fear on your turn to suppress the effects of frightful presence (save dc 28), think of it as a buff spell that also dazes the dragon. Having everyone pack ranged options will let you save downdraft/assay for when it’s really needed since the dragon must move when airborne or it falls. Moving means no full attack which is the #1 thing that could drop someone.

[Khedrac]

One thing to add is see if you can get a way for everyone to have some sort of feather fall effect - the dragon's best tactic is probably to grab someoen, take them high and drop them - one kill every few rounds, starting with the main damage dealer. Last time my party met a dragon the DM forgot that they were immune to paralysis (and so did I or I wouldn't have cast it) so I was able to use hold monster when it tried that, so you need a counter that doesn't rely on a forgetful DM.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, it's a nasty opponent especially if it has like Loredrake, Spellhoarding or anything of the sort. With your party, you need to enable them martially and they need to do martial things. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful seems good if you can engage it in a confined space. Tactical Dimension Door may be necessary to keep the party in melee range and Air Walk allows them to stay airborne and land in locations where they can actually hurt it. Recitation can also be a worthwhile party buff and obviously you're already doling out Greater Magic Weapons and such so I won't go there.

Dispels can be quite effective vs. Dragon caster levels. Though in this case it has 11th level casting, which matches up to what you've got so you don't really have magical superiority against it. Wall of Stone is a potential way to restrict its movement, but it is huge and you need to catch it landbound. Overall, with your party and in this case I think buff'n'spank is about the best thing you've got going for you. You might be able to **** it over with Dark Way (ready an action to cast it in front of it while it's flying; you can stall it this way if it's close enough to any objects) and similar Wall-effects, Silence can mess with its casting (just don't cast it on it but ready an action to cast it while it's trying to cast to break its casting), etc. But actually bringing it down with anything short of a lucky Plane Shift (you can deal with its Magic Resistance easily enough with Assay Resistance but actually landing the Will-save is hard) through sheer magic is quite difficult with your spell loadout.

[Xervous]

I’m curious what an optimized archer build is in this situation. We could very well be missing the obvious if there’s a greater manyshot or travel devotion skirmish archer that’s going to pump out 20+ damage an arrow with a to-hit bonus that has the player yearning for power attack. Buffed, the archer may very well be able to solo the dragon while the rest of the party distracts it.

[Anthrowhale]

As a cleric, you personally can deliver some ruinous damage in a single attack via a 2-handed x4 crit weapon + Surge of Fortune + Sense Weakness.

If you can get ahold of vorpal weapon (expensive, but not completely crazy as a party investment), then you can one-shot the dragon.

[RNightstalker]

Make sure everyone can fly.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Moon Bolt (SpC) is my divine go to for dragon fighting. Ranged touch, deals Str damage, RAW get its STR down to 0 and its immobile. Usually only takes a couple rounds.

[Biggus]

If you feel lucky, assay spell resistance + shivering touch (the "touch" part is the one requesting luck). It's feasible, tho.

There's a metamagic rod of reach spell (MiC p.165) for 9,000GP which could be useful if you're going this route. Or if you don't mind getting close to it, for the same price a rod of empower spell (SRD) makes it much more likely you'll incapacitate it in one go.

If the DM isn't going to use its spells, you should have a very good chance of hitting its touch AC.

Normally I'd say Shivering Touch is stinky cheese, but if the DM's putting you up against opponents 9CRs over your party, you need all the cheese you can get...

Edit: there's also the Ankh of Ascension (MiC p.71) which combined with Assay SR guarantees you can overcome its SR.


Moon Bolt (SpC) is my divine go to for dragon fighting. Ranged touch, deals Str damage, RAW get its STR down to 0 and its immobile. Usually only takes a couple rounds.

This might work well against a CR-appropriate dragon, especially if you can afford a rod of empower spell. But in this case, the caster will do 3d4 Str damage (average 7.5) and it's almost certainly going to make its fortitude save for half, so that's only -3.75 Str per round on average or -5.625 empowered, which when it's got Str 33 is going to take a long time to get down to 0.

Also, it's not ranged touch, it "strikes unerringly".

Edit 2:

@OP: if you'd rather go the "tons of buffs" route you mentioned (which is more dangerous but maybe more fun), here's are some to consider:

PHB: Divine Favor, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Righteous Might

SpC: Blessed Aim, Sign, Divine Protection, Hand of Divinity, Antidragon Aura, Mass Aid, Cloak of Bravery, Mass Conviction, Fell the Greatest Foe, Mass Resist Energy, Mass Lesser Vigor, Weapon of Energy, Lesser Holy Transformation, Recitation, Mass Shield of Faith, Greater Resistance, Aura of Evasion, Divine Agility, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful

CCh: Benediction

If Dragon Magazine content is allowed, there's also Bane Weapon (#279, p.47).

[PoeticallyPsyco]

At the risk of stating the obvious, have you considered simply avoiding it and waiting 'til you're stronger? 9 CR over ECL typically translates to "Don't go this way yet" in DM speak. Or "Use something other than your fists to get past this one"; any chance of negotiation or stealth? Green dragons are narcissistic, prizing mementos of past great victories above all else; perhaps there's something like that you could retrieve to bargain for passage.

[Biggus]

At the risk of stating the obvious, have you considered simply avoiding it and waiting 'til you're stronger? 9 CR over ECL typically translates to "Don't go this way yet" in DM speak.

Good point, I'd assumed "go another way first" isn't an option. If it is, you should definitely take it.

[Kyberwulf]

Poisons. Lots and lots of poisons.

[Madara]

I've never actually seen the need for a wizard. I've killed lots of dragons in parties without them. What you do is forget scry-and-die, forget trying to nuke it from orbit or whatever.

Buff your party, buff their weapons, and stab the thing to death.

You, as a cleric, have plenty of defenses you can put on your party to make them dragon killing machines. Strengthen their saves against fear, give them energy resistance, make sure you all have some form of ranged attack. It sounds like you gm isn't optimizing or anything, so don't worry about complexities, and just stab the thing. There's one of it and five of you.

However -and I will probably get lampooned for this but I'll say it anyway- you are the only cleric, and probably the best way you specifically can help the party, is heal. Buff, heal, buff, heal, buff, heal, and start stabbing the dragon yourself when all the buffing is done.

That's my normal gameplay. I'm hunting for more dragon-specific buffs like the obvious Protection from Energy (or whichever gives a flat bonus hp vs the energy type). My big issue is finding specific buffs that can bridge the to-hit gap for our rogues so that they can participate...

I've got plenty of healing items but the problem is that the sheer single-target damage can almost one-turn nuke single party members.



Downdraft is a no-save-just-lose ideal for this situation. As a huge dragon it has a 50ft breath weapon. Downdraft plummets targets 50ft on a successful save. Assay spell resistance will give you a 75% chance of landing it in absence of any other CL boosters

Layer on energy protection and energy resistance. Put appropriate buff spells on the ideal damage delivery vehicle here (archer) and for the love of Pelor don’t end your turn in the dragon’s reach if you don’t have to. Unable to strafe with its breath weapon you shouldn’t have too much trouble dancing around its 40 ft movement. Play keep away with the archer and you’ll win on pure numbers by virtue of the dragon never getting to full attack. Anklets of translocation and the tumble skill will let party members avoid AoOs. Percentile miss chances are your most efficient option vs its high attack bonus. If power attack isn’t in play you won’t have to worry about the bite hitting too hard.

To ensure the kill the hardest part is going to be knowing when the group needs to crowd in on the dragon to prevent it from fleeing. Engaging it indoors is a probabilistic win so long as the ceiling height prevents it from clearing 50ft.

This is of course assuming it doesn’t cast spells as outlined, and an optimized archer build refers to something that will be pulling 60+ dpr with buffs against the dragon’s high AC. With additional buffed party members it shouldn’t take more than 6 rounds to carve through the dragon’s 360 hp, subjecting the party to 2 breath weapons, 4 bites / some full attacks while pushing in for the kill. The breath weapons whiff against energy protection (failing two averages out to 6 damage through energy protection). Miss chance and not lining yourself up for full attacks gives you plenty of room to stay healthy and conscious.

Clump the party to bait its breath weapon on the first round. Then cast remove fear on your turn to suppress the effects of frightful presence (save dc 28), think of it as a buff spell that also dazes the dragon. Having everyone pack ranged options will let you save downdraft/assay for when it’s really needed since the dragon must move when airborne or it falls. Moving means no full attack which is the #1 thing that could drop someone.

Downdraft sounds pretty spot-on! Energy Protection and Miss Chance were already on my shopping list. The airborn must move is really good to know. We didn't get hit by a frightful presence this last time, but I'll still prepare for it. One worry is that the Archer full-attacking means sitting still and perhaps getting piled on.


At the risk of stating the obvious, have you considered simply avoiding it and waiting 'til you're stronger? 9 CR over ECL typically translates to "Don't go this way yet" in DM speak. Or "Use something other than your fists to get past this one"; any chance of negotiation or stealth? Green dragons are narcissistic, prizing mementos of past great victories above all else; perhaps there's something like that you could retrieve to bargain for passage.

There is a chance for negotiation but the trade-off is that a lot of the other players are "new" (first campaign or second) and they really really want to kill this dragon. We've got a dragonborn named "Kinslayer" for Pelor's Sake! So I think regardless of DM intention, my veteran self wants to enable the dreams of the party and kill this thing.

[SirNibbles]

Ice Slick (Frostburn, page 100) is a DC 11+Wis Balance check for the dragon (+0 Balance) to avoid falling prone. Assuming 20 Wis, that means a 75% chance of failure every round, and a chance to fall over every time it takes damage. If your Wis is higher or you have other DC boosters, since this is a skill check and not a save, you can make even a natural 20 Balance check fail. That means it will spend the entire fight on the ground.

A wand of Rot of Ages (Dragon Magic, page 72) obscures your target's vision, giving everyone concealment with no save and no SR. It also has a Fortitude save against being sickened/nauseated that the dragon will pass on anything but a natural 1, so that's not important. It has a 2 round duration, meaning you'll need someone spamming it every other round.

So, now that it's fallen and it can't get up and it can't see you, just surround it and whack it to death; touch attacks from a Scimitar of Sand or Flame Blade will hit pretty much every time.

Here's how the fight would probably go:
1. Ice Slick, Dragon is prone.
2. Rot of Ages, dragon is (effectively) blind.
3. Smack it with a touch weapon.
4. Smack it again.
5. Dragon tries to get up. Free AoOs.
6. Dragon gets up and tries to exit a threatened square: more AoOs and almost 100% chance to fall prone again.

Repeat. Your Rogues will get sneak attack on every hit due to concealment so it shouldn't take too long to whittle it down between the 5 of you, even with one of you using every other round to refresh Rot of Ages.

If it tries to use its breath weapon, having buffs like Divine Agility, Aura of Evasion, Antidragon Aura, and acid resistance up before you go in should take care of most issues. If it tries to attack from the ground, it does so with a 50% miss chance and a -4 to its attack roll.

EDIT: I am the stupid. Rot of Ages gives concealment, not total concealment. Still, Ice Slick is pretty much guaranteed to keep it on the ground.

[Quertus]

Now, I may be mistaken, but I believe that my BDH party slaughtered that dragon before it even got a turn. And you've got 2 Rogues - you should be fine. So, here's what you need to do.

1) run away! (Already did that part, great!)

2) grind - go fight something else until you reach level 11.

3) use the funds from that grinding to buy a Ring of Spell Storing, to give the Rogues your "self only" spells.

4) buff them with Divine Power (for "3 attacks" at BAB +11, lots more if they're competent builds), Divine Favor (for +5 attack/damage (you do use a Necklace of Prayer Beads for your buff routines, right?)), etc, on top of your standard party buffs.

5) watch as the Rogues carve the Dragon into Dragon steaks.

6) if this fails, use the "as many as you can teleport" mercenaries (I recommend Maugg) that you've hired for the day to go provide flanking bonuses for the Rogues. Bonus points if at least one went first anyway (that's a free +2 to hit).

6b) alternately, since you're level 11 now, you could use Animate Objects to animate something to give that flanking bonus.

6c) (mostly a joke, but…) If someone (say, some Maugg mercenaries) can afford the 1,125 pounds of encumbrance, you could literally bury the dragon in red tape, animating a whopping 112,500 pieces of paper (or "pre-folded paper airplanes", as my animation-inclined characters like to call them :smallwink:). Pity that it would take a Miracle for them to actually harm the Dragon. :smallfrown:

7) profit!

EDIT: note: I wasn't playing a Cleric when we ran through this module, so these tactics are 100% untested against this particular Dragon.

[Xervous]

Downdraft sounds pretty spot-on! Energy Protection and Miss Chance were already on my shopping list. The airborn must move is really good to know. We didn't get hit by a frightful presence this last time, but I'll still prepare for it. One worry is that the Archer full-attacking means sitting still and perhaps getting piled on.

The archer just needs to sit a good distance away with one ally being in the way. This prevents the dragon from charging and if at >55ft forces a double move if the dragon wants to threaten the archer which in all likelihood won’t happen because that’s a 0 damage round for the dragon, possibly pulling AoOs, and can be action traded by the archer to reset the scene.

At an AC of 36 you’re going to need some serious buffs to put the rogues within a reasonable chance of hitting. If they’re not tossing alchemist fires at the ground for sneak attack while rendering the dragon flat footed they will be in line to drop. Getting into melee with that +29 attack bonus subjects you to an average 86 damage full attack at 95% hit chance before percentile mitigation. Anyone trying to flank is liable to explode. Blinding does nothing that a 50% miss chance effect doesn’t do. Dragons have blindsense 60ft and prone only imposes a -4(total -9 on secondary attacks). You’d still be looking at an AVERAGE 43, but the high end goes well over 100.

Divine powered L10 rogues with 26 dex vs prone with flanking, +3 from GMW, +2 luck from another buff are rolling at effective +27/22(x2) which is enough to be worth flanking the dragon for nova, but without this massive boost to attack rolls (losing out on prone and divine power cut off +7, dropping these +2 dex race, +4 dex gloves rogues to mostly irrelevant hit chances)

Again, I’m deathly curious what the archer is like as splitting can yield ridiculous damage that may be able to trivialize the scenario, or at least inform us the party is not up to snuff.

[Biggus]

That's my normal gameplay. I'm hunting for more dragon-specific buffs like the obvious Protection from Energy (or whichever gives a flat bonus hp vs the energy type). My big issue is finding specific buffs that can bridge the to-hit gap for our rogues so that they can participate...

Did you not see the list I posted above? Recitation gives a +2 luck bonus to attack or +3 if they worship the same deity as you, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful a +3 morale bonus, Greater Magic Weapon and Bane Weapon both increase their weapon's enhancement bonuses (and stack with each other) and there's also Bull's Strength if they're using Strength to attack or Divine Agility if they're using Dexterity. Put together those should give somewhere between a +8 and +13 increase to their attack bonus...

[Madara]

Did you not see the list I posted above? Recitation gives a +2 luck bonus to attack or +3 if they worship the same deity as you, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful a +3 morale bonus, Greater Magic Weapon and Bane Weapon both increase their weapon's enhancement bonuses (and stack with each other) and there's also Bull's Strength if they're using Strength to attack or Divine Agility if they're using Dexterity. Put together those should give somewhere between a +8 and +13 increase to their attack bonus...

I saw it. Was replying to someone else. I'm familiar with those buffs. They're appreciated, but a dragon fight of the caliber requires tailoring buffs to the specific foe. Or at least that's what I'm trying to get more of.



The archer just needs to sit a good distance away with one ally being in the way. This prevents the dragon from charging and if at >55ft forces a double move if the dragon wants to threaten the archer which in all likelihood won’t happen because that’s a 0 damage round for the dragon, possibly pulling AoOs, and can be action traded by the archer to reset the scene.

At an AC of 36 you’re going to need some serious buffs to put the rogues within a reasonable chance of hitting. If they’re not tossing alchemist fires at the ground for sneak attack while rendering the dragon flat footed they will be in line to drop. Getting into melee with that +29 attack bonus subjects you to an average 86 damage full attack at 95% hit chance before percentile mitigation. Anyone trying to flank is liable to explode. Blinding does nothing that a 50% miss chance effect doesn’t do. Dragons have blindsense 60ft and prone only imposes a -4(total -9 on secondary attacks). You’d still be looking at an AVERAGE 43, but the high end goes well over 100.

Divine powered L10 rogues with 26 dex vs prone with flanking, +3 from GMW, +2 luck from another buff are rolling at effective +27/22(x2) which is enough to be worth flanking the dragon for nova, but without this massive boost to attack rolls (losing out on prone and divine power cut off +7, dropping these +2 dex race, +4 dex gloves rogues to mostly irrelevant hit chances)

Again, I’m deathly curious what the archer is like as splitting can yield ridiculous damage that may be able to trivialize the scenario, or at least inform us the party is not up to snuff.

Four Attacks at +17
Two Attacks at +12
Six Attacks at +15
Two Attacks at +10

For 1d8+1d6+1d11(Our DM has interesting enchantment rules)+1d4+7

Without external buffs. The usual +4 to hit per miss from one of the useful archery feats.

No Hank's Energy Bow, but at least we got splitting. (Did require me taking Craft Arms and Armor...)

[Khedrac]

A wand of Rot of Ages (Dragon Magic, page 72) obscures your target's vision, giving everyone concealment with no save and no SR. It also has a Fortitude save against being sickened/nauseated that the dragon will pass on anything but a natural 1, so that's not important. It has a 2 round duration, meaning you'll need someone spamming it every other round.
...
2. Rot of Ages, dragon is (effectively) blind.
...
Repeat. Your Rogues will get sneak attack on every hit due to concealment so it shouldn't take too long to whittle it down between the 5 of you, even with one of you using every other round to refresh Rot of Ages.

On reading it's not a bad spell, but it is nothing like as powerful as you seem to think. The spell gives everyone concealment (http://dndsrd.net/combatModifiers.html#concealment) against the target, not total concealment.

This means it can still see everything - with a 20% miss chance.
It is not denied its dexterity bonus (unless it is balancing without 5 ranks) so no one is sneak attacking it without flank.

[SirNibbles]

On reading it's not a bad spell, but it is nothing like as powerful as you seem to think. The spell gives everyone concealment (http://dndsrd.net/combatModifiers.html#concealment) against the target, not total concealment.

This means it can still see everything - with a 20% miss chance.
It is not denied its dexterity bonus (unless it is balancing without 5 ranks) so no one is sneak attacking it without flank.

Good catch- I was a bit too ambitious. Still, I doubt it has Balance 5 since it's not a class skill, so everyone should be getting sneak attacks.

[Xervous]

Four Attacks at +17
Two Attacks at +12
Six Attacks at +15
Two Attacks at +10

For 1d8+1d6+1d11(Our DM has interesting enchantment rules)+1d4+7

Without external buffs. The usual +4 to hit per miss from one of the useful archery feats.

No Hank's Energy Bow, but at least we got splitting. (Did require me taking Craft Arms and Armor...)

If that full list of attacks is the archer’s full attack you’re killing the dragon trivially once you buff the archer. Protect the archer from getting within melee range and prevent the dragon from fleeing. It will die ludicrously fast.

Whiffing the first six attacks still puts 140+ average damage down range. With buffs and proper spacing you’re looking at a 2 round kill. If the archer wins initiative the dragon is only getting one turn.

[Demidos]

Buff Initiative, or debuff its initiative. Nerveskitter and Shock and Awe are both great (though you'll need a rogue with UMD since they are Sor/wis/assassin). Or maybe a scroll of hide from Dragons (again, using umd?). That should get you the surprise round, which is critical to not letting the dragon get that full attack off before it is on the verge of death.

[Xervous]

Buff Initiative, or debuff its initiative. Nerveskitter and Shock and Awe are both great (though you'll need a rogue with UMD since they are Sor/wis/assassin). Or maybe a scroll of hide from Dragons (again, using umd?). That should get you the surprise round, which is critical to not letting the dragon get that full attack off before it is on the verge of death.

I think it has been established the archer kills the dragon in two rounds with buffs. Short of starting within the dragon’s reach and failing at positioning to shield the archer the dragon will be getting off at most 3 attacks, one being an AoO. If archer goes before dragon and the dragon fails to threaten the archer on its first turn the dragon gets one attack or can totally whiff its breath weapon into energy protection...


Ideal play becomes...

Archer and cleric beat dragon on initiative. All melee delay until after the dragon.

Archer obliterates half or more of the dragon’s health

Cleric casts assay SR and readies downdraft conditional on the dragon taking flight. If it stands up afterwards, great it wasted its turn. If not all the melee combatants can dogpile it for the juicy +4 vs prone and the coming free AoO if it lives to attempt to stand.

Party is situated to attempt to prevent the dragon from getting closer than 15ft to the archer. Failing that just be prepared to bait out the dragon’s one AoO

Archer’s turn comes around, 5ft step or the above means no AoO. Archer full attacks for the kill.

If the dragon goes first there’s still really good odds on being able to swat it with downdraft. Unless it breaks LoS the archer can gun it down before it can fly away.

[Biggus]

I saw it. Was replying to someone else. I'm familiar with those buffs. They're appreciated, but a dragon fight of the caliber requires tailoring buffs to the specific foe. Or at least that's what I'm trying to get more of.


Fair enough, Bane Weapon is dragon-specific and quite obscure so I thought that at least might be useful.

If the Rogues are Dex-based attackers they should be able to average over 50 damage per round each with just what I listed (assuming they can flank it), or over 75 if they're two-weapon fighting. If they're Str-based probably a bit less, but I'd still say that's making a contribution...

[Hiro Quester]

Summoning some monsters can also be a life-saver when you have one big target and many smaller and more fragile allies.

Give the dragon things to attack that are not your party members.

A metamagic rod of Extend Spell, used to make summons (and/or buffs) last longer, can be a way to get the dragon distracted and fighting other things while your party applies final buffs and then go in stealthily for ambush while the dragon is distracted fighting your celestial lions bears, or hippogryphs etc.

Summons can also provide flanking for your rogues to backstab, flying summons like hippogryphs can be aerial mounts, harriers that keep the dragon on the ground by patrolling and attacking when the dragon takes to the air (or try to catching people that the dragon drops from height).

[Endarire]

Surge of fortune works well with shivering touch/assay spell resistance/spectral hand, with more spells on this combo making it easier to execute the dragon and it.

[Him]

Has anyone talked about the elephant in the room? So many fancy answers but here is mine.

Beginners guide to being OP at 10th level:

So, does your rogue have UMD and skill mastery UMD? With a nice little UMD bonus item, you can start dropping ( you said you had cash right?) 9th level scrolls each round . That spell resistance will eventually fails a 9th level scroll is from a 17th level caster with a +4 min INT bonus.

Hope that doesn't take too much fun out of it for you.

Or if wanting to avoid direct combat (and SR) altogether, my fav spell to go to war with, elemental swarm. BOOM! *mic drop*

[Xervous]

Re: UMD. CL 17 has a 60% chance of bypassing the SR. Throwing money at the dragon will work eventually. But the party is already geared up to swat the dragon in two rounds. At nearly 4K gp a pop I have my doubts the party is willing to waste a bunch of money on so easy a target.

[Khedrac]

Re: UMD. CL 17 has a 60% chance of bypassing the SR. Throwing money at the dragon will work eventually. But the party is already geared up to swat the dragon in two rounds. At nearly 4K gp a pop I have my doubts the party is willing to waste a bunch of money on so easy a target.

Add in that that is a DC37 UMD check, unless the rogue is UMD focussed (i.e. stat points in Charisma etc.) the chances are good that it is an 18+ on the die to succeed.

[Madara]

My rogues have a +2 to UMD

[Him]

Yes, was aware of dc37, but UMD +skill mastery UMD is the most versatile way to OP damm near any situation from rogue 10th level onwards(up to about party level 15, when it starts to just be handy to have). And elemental swarm just has along cast time and makes it so NO party members die, you just send in the clowns.

But +2 just won't cut it. How did you get 2 rounds though? From what I saw of the solution that 60% man wrote it was basically kiting to death.. NVM.. let discuss this properly, I need a map of the dragons lair and surrounding and copies of all the character sheets!!! Also a whiteboard and a calculator.

Actually, couldn't be bothered. Your party is 2 levels too low for any other solution i can be bothered thinking of, so my only suggestion is to save some cash to rez.

[Him]

Maybe I don't belong on these forums. How do charaters have +5 inherent at these levels? The builds i've seen posted remind me of TR's off DDO, not Pc's with the GP limit described in the DMG. Anyway I digress and possibly diverting thread. GL with the dragon. Maybe it's just lonely and wants to make friends, how's your diplomacy skill?

[Quentinas]

Now i'm unsure if this can be done because i never used a martial script but what about your rogue /assassin /swordsage use a wand of wraithstrike (spell on the list of the assassin) , then a martial scroll of hamstring attack to do some damage at dexterity? Then you use frostbite from frostburn that do 2d6 of dexterity damage (even here fortitude half) and do it again with white raven tactics of the warblade for example to let you do frostbite again? You have some spellcasting (and is not without arcane spellcasting but using the arcane spells of the assassin) maybe is not a good idea , but it could be a way to beat him after had scryed and teleported

[Quertus]

Maybe I don't belong on these forums. How do charaters have +5 inherent at these levels? The builds i've seen posted remind me of TR's off DDO, not Pc's with the GP limit described in the DMG. Anyway I digress and possibly diverting thread. GL with the dragon. Maybe it's just lonely and wants to make friends, how's your diplomacy skill?

They're not limits, they're more like guidelines. They're, "if you played from 1st level, got average expected treasure, and sold everything for half, this is how much gear you'd expect that the character would have.".

And just {scrubbed} do all those abbreviations mean? :smallconfused:

But, yeah, "+5 inherent" is not exactly "practical OP" for level 10.

[Zellsantal]

Well depending how your DM would rule it or let you do it in the first place I have a few ideas that could help you out.

1. Get a "Portable Hole" and get it over the dragons head, then with a dagger or something sharp to puncture a hole in it the Portable Hole which would destroy the Portable Hole and anything in it meaning the dragon's head would be gone as well.

2. Portable hole and bag of holding combo (read texts to know what I'm talking about.

3. Which might be the cheapest shot of them all and lowest cost, Explosive Runes. Being it is a third level spell get two wands of it and use all 100 charages to make 100 pages and each with the Explosive ruin. Then you have your rogue or the swordsage/assassin use a wand of dispel magic or you can but as a area effect and not on a signal item or this combo wont work right. When casting the despel make sure you say "I WILLINGLY FAIL ON MY ATTEMPT" when doing this for it said's on this wording of Explosive Runes when failing with a dispel triggers the explosion. Place that stack of 100 under the dragon, above or what not, as long it is basely in its middle and then the moment it is use dispel and before you is a mini nuke. 6d6 per page meaning the lowest damage is 600 between the highest which is 3600 damage in one shot lol. Now granted I don't know if the spell resistance but still there is no save for it.

I hope that helped.

[Him]

They're not limits, they're more like guidelines. They're, "if you played from 1st level, got average expected treasure, and sold everything for half, this is how much gear you'd expect that the character would have.".

And just {scrub the post, scrub the quote} do all those abbreviations mean? :smallconfused:

But, yeah, "+5 inherent" is not exactly "practical OP" for level 10.

{Scrubbed} I am am well aware if how the gp levels is a worked out, as for the abbreviations, well that would be a separate thread. Stay on topic. The guy asked for options, I provided an option that included the weakness and requirements I believed the guy was smart enough to work out the 60% on his own.

I am sensitive about the UMD thing due to something related to character that I will cover in a different thread later. But I do firmly believe that skill mastery and UMD is the "practical OP" from levels 10 through 15 just gotta assign that skill slot early and have the spare cash. But seriously a 10th level party taking on a very old green dragon(cr18?) The only thing that truly comes the mind is someone crying the words "mommy!" And the sound of footsteps as someone flees.

*shrug* (DDO: Dungeons and Dragons Online, TR: something you do in DDO, DMG: please, oh please tell me I don't have to explain this one) *whispers* hint: one of the 2 core rule books.

[Quertus]

Scrub the post, scrub the quote.

{Scrubbed}


*shrug* (DDO: Dungeons and Dragons Online, TR: something you do in DDO,

… and "GL" is shorthand for "good luck", isn't it?

[Him]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}


… and "GL" is shorthand for "good luck", isn't it?

{scrubbed}

[Remuko]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

he meant Captain Barbossa from Pirates of the Caribbean.

[Quertus]

he meant Captain Barbossa from Pirates of the Caribbean.

Yeah. Darn autocorrect. (Fixed!)

[Him]

???? Not sure what this has to do with killing a dragon, but I'll field it.

What you are talking about is character alignment with in rules. The DM states the rules (Usually by saying we follow the books with,maybe, this additional flavour) and the players play in predetermined limits. For example I could make a monk pirate that is lawful to code, which would be handy considering no-one was wearing armor in Pirates, whirling steel feat from eberon and away I go. To put it in a different was Barbosa is a chaotic character that operates with in the rules of the world, for even he would profess a love of the sea, but you must obey her rules as she can be a cruel mistress.

A good DM is inherently Lawful neutral with good tendencies because he does stack the deck towards the players a little. But even so the mechanics of the game is the actual stacking if implemented correctly so the DM just needs a decent range of voices and mannerisms to draw the players into the fantasy, with enough coin you can buy great senarios rule book and what to explore this world with so the DM need to have a good enough imagination for the world to react dynamically to the players actions within the set limits, (this thread Return to the Temple of Elemtal Evil is a good example of a bought senario, and i,'m sure some has sandboxed Pirates of the Carribean). Barbosa himself was a plot device and NPC in the first movie didn't really become a player till later.

Ad-hoc rule changes I believe should only come under the category of Plot Devices. And are a DMs perogative. Any player telling the DM what to do isn't being a good player, and i not talking about thier character alignment. A good DM will make adjustments as they go or maybe in the next session, depends on when they get a chance to review.

In the case of this dragon, a 10th level party against a CR18 creature, I smell a plot device.

But not confuse the roles of Pc's, NPC's and DM's. After all this is supposed to be a role playing game.

And Pirates are in it for the booty!!!! Yarggghhh!

But seriously, mod, beyond this has gotta be new thread material right, unless we get back on topic.

Wait, were you guys just being facetious, Q?

[Sepultra]

Seems like you use the cleric to buff the party to high hell, find some way of keeping it grounded (gotta be some way to homebrew acid that burns through dragon wings?), then beat it to death.

[Xervous]

Seems like you use the cleric to buff the party to high hell, find some way of keeping it grounded (gotta be some way to homebrew acid that burns through dragon wings?), then beat it to death.

Assay SR + downdraft as mentioned before. The party has the damage to murder the dragon in two rounds flat. The archer alone with buffs will kill the dragon before it can fly away. All that remains unclear is where the party decides to fight and if one of the “brave” melee users goes down to a full attack.

[Sepultra]

Assay SR + downdraft as mentioned before. The party has the damage to murder the dragon in two rounds flat. The archer alone with buffs will kill the dragon before it can fly away. All that remains unclear is where the party decides to fight and if one of the “brave” melee users goes down to a full attack.

Healing armour enhancement would surely avoid that? Bit pricey but should be affordable if they've got the promise of dragon loot at the end of this.

[mostlyharmful]

Heretical suggestion I know but, is killing it entirely necessary? It's intelligent, greedy and predictably lawful, it's been around long enough to have a solid rep for its particular mores and peculiarities you can gather knowledge about and just bribe the thing can't you? Seems a whole lot easier than a bunch of tenth levels going up against an even vaguely competently run very old green.

[Garou666]

Pump up spells to resist they breath. mass fly, and u will be fine. :smallcool:

[Xervous]

Healing armour enhancement would surely avoid that? Bit pricey but should be affordable if they've got the promise of dragon loot at the end of this.

I don’t think wasting 34k+ on a 20 hp heal is
1. Reasonable by suggested guidelines on pc item valuations in proportion to their wbl
2. At all an efficient use of their money
3. Terribly effective considering the heal only triggers in the range of -1 to -9 hp.

If anything it makes the character more likely to die since the dragon might have moved on to another target if the fighter dropped unconscious. Standing back up at 15 hp in the middle of a full attack means he just gets battered down again and may easily get killed outright instead of dropping unconscious. Paying for multiple scrolls of stoneskin will outvalue and outperform the armor over the course of the road from 11-20 for fights where burst survivability is an issue. Just 950 for a CL 7 (70 hp) buffer that almost surely will see full use if the dragon chows down on a misguided soul.

[Madara]

Well, the 1300 hp it had above the token last weekend was apparently a typo.

We killed it in the surprise round.


Optimization is dangerous kids, be sure to verify all the information about the situation before buffing up your party.

Your Highschool Football Team doesn't need steroids to play against some middle-schoolers in a pick-up game.

[Sepultra]

I don’t think wasting 34k+ on a 20 hp heal
I've no idea where you got those numbers from, but healing is 8,000 for 2d8+5. It's from MIC on page 12.

The point isn't to get the fighter back up and running for combat, it's to stabilise the fighter so they can get out of combat in the hundreds of ways that exist for this.

The effect occurs automatically, so the party have a full round to find some way to get the fighter out of reach of a breath weapon attack that kills him by taking him below -9 (which is easy for any breath weapon attack)


Well, the 1300 hp it had above the token last weekend was apparently a typo.

Just don't be surprised if it's not next time ;)

[Quertus]

Well, the 1300 hp it had above the token last weekend was apparently a typo.

We killed it in the surprise round.


Optimization is dangerous kids, be sure to verify all the information about the situation before buffing up your party.

Your Highschool Football Team doesn't need steroids to play against some middle-schoolers in a pick-up game.

Told you it shouldn't be an issue. :smallwink:

What drugs did your party take?


I've no idea where you got those numbers from, but healing is 8,000 for 2d8+5. It's from MIC on page 12.

I've always been a fan of the Amulet of Emergency Healing (also from MIC). For 6k, you get (+2 to Heal checks, and) 3 charges / day of 1d4+5 immediate action healing, usable (IIRC) within 30', and explicitly works even if the patient is below -10. So, in a 4-man party, if everyone and their cohort has one, that's 3x/day you can spam 8d4+40 healing, even if someone got tagged by a rocket.

EDIT: Get a GM who will value that "+2 to heal checks" at 400 GP, and you can get it without for 5.6k. Get them to call it a "x1.5 secondary feature", and it's only 5.4k without it.

[Him]

Role playing option (if nothing else to works) go to town find the local NPC dragon killing guild and say you've cleared out some ruins and need help with the dragon, you just want a portion of the loot and to help out in combat.

[Xervous]

I've no idea where you got those numbers from, but healing is 8,000 for 2d8+5. It's from MIC on page 12.

A certain website doesn’t play nice with my iDiot device and all I could dredge up for reference at the time was the dated Faerun version.

Even at 8k the price performance in this scenario is pitiful. Stabilizing a bleeding out ally is a trivial act that can be accomplished with a cleric casting close wounds. Close wounds is leaps and bounds better than healing as it can actually prevent the recipient from dying outright at -10 which is a very real possibility when the dragon in question has attacks that can deliver 20+ damage in a single standard hit.

[Sepultra]

I've always been a fan of the Amulet of Emergency Healing (also from MIC). For 6k, you get (+2 to Heal checks, and) 3 charges / day of 1d4+5 immediate action healing, usable (IIRC) within 30', and explicitly works even if the patient is below -10

This is *really* good. Jesus.

Edit to save a post

Even at 8k the price performance in this scenario is pitiful. Stabilizing a bleeding out ally is a trivial act that can be accomplished with a cleric casting close wounds. Close wounds is leaps and bounds better than healing as it can actually prevent the recipient from dying outright at -10 which is a very real possibility when the dragon in question has attacks that can deliver 20+ damage in a single standard hit.
I've seen the arguments about this being overpriced a lot and I'm not denying it's costly, but it's an item that, when you *really* need it, is there. It's contingent healing and at the time you actually need it to work, it generally does - at least at the level range where it's still costly.

[Xervous]

This is *really* good. Jesus.

Edit to save a post

I've seen the arguments about this being overpriced a lot and I'm not denying it's costly, but it's an item that, when you *really* need it, is there. It's contingent healing and at the time you actually need it to work, it generally does - at least at the level range where it's still costly.

In the absence of a cleric with access to the outlier that is Close Wounds I agree. “Appropriate CR” enemies at that point aren’t all tossing around such massive attacks that players have to worry about going 12 to -10 or even getting puréed down from full in one turn in the absence of a dedicated horde.

The Very Old Green is an outlier here, being able to hit expected player ACs on a 2 and having a 13-27 damage range on its bite and the more terrifying 18-28 on the tail slap that I suspect most GMs would employ last due to the listing order of dragon’s attacks.

[Powerdork]

Role playing option (if nothing else to works) go to town find the local NPC dragon killing guild and say you've cleared out some ruins and need help with the dragon, you just want a portion of the loot and to help out in combat.

That assumes, if there wasn't a local NPC dragon killing guild before, that you have the creative agency to suppose that one exists. This is, unfortunately, even less likely than getting enough gold to buy things, for a lot of tables.

[Him]

That assumes, if there wasn't a local NPC dragon killing guild before, that you have the creative agency to suppose that one exists. This is, unfortunately, even less likely than getting enough gold to buy things, for a lot of tables.

*shrug* the GM doesn't need to provide details for the full build, just the toons relevant to the quest, apart from that, need to speak to a receptionist and the local area manager,, apart from that pretty easy.

And of worst comes to worst, I believe that RttToEE i s set on Myth Dean of (or how ever it's spelt) so you already have a huh l d set up who might help. The gold is up to the GM, but even a finders fee of 15% is standard business practice.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please remain civil.