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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class Bladebinder (PRC, martial adept/binder theurge)



Elves
2020-04-20, 12:28 PM
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This class is based on Silva Stormrage's pact-bound knight (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599930-Pact-Bound-Knight-Initiator-Binding-PRC).

Elves
2020-04-20, 01:50 PM
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Bladebinder

What we know about vestiges could probably fit on the inside of a thimble. All some people need to know is that they are sources of great power. Those people are binders, occultists who willingly become possessed by esoteric forces. In exchange for giving vestiges a taste of the living world, they receive a taste of those vestiges’ own powers. Bladebinders are a rare breed of binder-adept who fuse martial techniques with their vestige-granted abilities, gaining particular power with the weapons their vestiges bestow.


Becoming a Bladebinder

Vestiges are always straining to escape the void where they are trammeled, pathetic remnants unfit for real existence. Martially inclined ones often turn their vicarious eyes on living warriors, and sometimes their whispers reach through the veil and find an entrance into those warriors’ minds. Alternately, a binder who spends time bound to warlike vestiges may find themselves influenced or convinced to take up martial practice for themselves.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Alignment: Any nongood
Base Attack Bonus: +4
Skills: Martial Lore 5 ranks
Maneuvers: Must know a martial maneuver of at least second level, plus one stance of any level
Binding: Must be able to bind 2nd-level vestiges.



Table: the Bladebinder------Hit Die: d8
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Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Binding
Initiating


1st
+1
+2
+0
+0
Infused weapons (+1), seal power, soul-guided strike
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


2nd
+2
+3
+0
+0
Vestige’s fury
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


3rd
+3
+3
+1
+1
Infused weapons (+2), soul wound
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


4th
+4
+4
+1
+1
Martial lore from the void
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


5th
+5
+4
+1
+1
Cannibalize seal, infused weapons (+3)
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


6th
+6
+5
+2
+2
Martial seal
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


7th
+7
+5
+2
+2
Infused weapons (+4)
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


8th
+8
+6
+2
+2
Occult fury
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


9th
+9
+6
+3
+3
Infused weapons (+5)
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class


10th
+10
+7
+3
+3
Sublime pact
+1 binder level
+1 level of initiating class



Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the Planes) Martial Lore, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Spellcraft, Tumble.

Skill points at each level: 4 + Intelligence modifier


CLASS FEATURES

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: You gain no additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Maneuvers and Stances: At each bladebinder level, you gain maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, and stances known as if that level were a level in a martial adept class to which you already belong. However, you don’t gain any other benefit the martial adept class would grant, including the ability to swap out old maneuvers for new ones. If you have levels in multiple martial adept classes, you must decide which class’s initiating to advance at each level.

Soul Binding: At each level, your soul binding ability improves as if you had gained a level in the binder class. Your binder and bladebinder levels stack for the purpose of determining your bonus on binding checks, the effectiveness of your vestige-granted abilities, your ability to bind higher-level vestiges, and the number of vestiges you can bind. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a binder would have gained.

Infused Weapons (Su): Any weapon granted to you by a vestige, or with which a vestige grants you proficiency (whether or not you were already proficient with it) is treated as a +1 magical weapon when you wield it. If the weapon already has an enhancement bonus, you may increase the bonus by 1 or grant it a magical weapon property equivalent to a +1 bonus. At each subsequent odd class level, the enhancement bonus this ability grants increases by 1, to a maximum of +5 at 9th level. Your choice of bonuses and special abilities is made when you form a pact, and applies to all weapons that vestige grants or grants proficiency with.
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If a vestige grants you proficiency with an entire weapon category, choose any one type of weapon from that category with which to gain this benefit. You make this choice when forming your pact.
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This ability can't increase a weapon's bonus past the +10-equivalent limit for non-epic items. Any points of enhancement remaining after this limit is reached can be used to temporarily overwrite the weapon's existing bonuses and special abilities, at your determination.
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This ability doesn't stack; if a weapon is eligible through multiple vestiges, you must choose one vestige to infuse it. This decision lasts until your pact with that vestige ends. Vestiges with whom you have a bad pact are compulsorily prioritized in this choice.

Seal Power (Su): Normally, a binder uses seals to invoke a vestige. You can instead use a seal as a conduit to draw power directly from the void. While standing inside a seal you’ve drawn and whose area is no larger than the space you occupy, you gain an insight bonus on damage rolls equal to your Charisma bonus, if any, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to 1 + half your Charisma bonus, if any. Remember, seals take 1 minute to draw and lose potency after 1 minute.

Soul-Guided Strike: When you make an attack with one of your infused weapons as part of a maneuver, you can opt to use Charisma as the maneuver’s key ability for the purpose of calculating the DC of any saving throws incurred by the attack.

Vestige’s Fury (Su): Starting at 2nd level, whenever you kill or knock out an enemy with an attack made with one of your vestige's infused weapons, choose one of that vestige’s granted abilities that is currently on cooldown. It becomes available again 1 round sooner. You can only gain this benefit once per round per vestige.

Soul Wound (Su): Starting at 3rd level, when you hit a creature with an attack made as part of a strike maneuver, that creature suffers a non-cumulative -2 penalty on saving throws against your vestige abilities until the end of your next turn.

Martial Lore from the Void (Su): Starting at 4th level, when you bind a vestige, you can forgo one of its granted abilities with a five round cooldown. In exchange, you gain the ability to use any one maneuver whose prerequisites you meet (you need not have access to its discipline). For the duration of your pact, you can initiate that maneuver once every five rounds. The maneuver you gain this way is separate from and in addition to your normal readied maneuvers; it is not expended, and no maneuver recovery effect will cause it come off cooldown prematurely, though an effect that would reduce the cooldown time of the corresponding vestige ability will.
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Maneuvers accessed with this ability are treated as a supernatural, even if they normally aren't. They also don’t count toward prerequisites or requirements of any kind.

Cannibalize Seal (Su): Starting at 5th level, while standing in or adjacent to any active binder seal, you can spend a swift action to absorb its power, destroying it while bolstering yourself. You gain x benefits. These benefits last as long as the seal would have lasted. Using this ability provokes an attack of opportunity. If the seal has more than a 10-foot diameter, it takes a full round of concentration to use this ability.

Martial Seal (Su): Starting at 6th level, once per turn as a free action, you can expend a readied and available maneuver to create an occult seal anywhere within your natural reach. The seal has a 5-foot diameter and lasts for a number of rounds equal to the expended maneuver’s level. In addition to functioning as a normal binder’s seal, the seal grants anyone occupying its space a bonus on attacks and skill checks made as part of a martial maneuver. The bonus equals half the level of the maneuver expended to create the seal, rounded up. The bonus increases by 2 for maneuvers of the same discipline as the maneuver expended to create the seal.
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The seal need not be drawn on a surface. If created in a space with no ground surface, it manifests as floating magical sigil.

Occult Fury: Starting at 8th level, once per round when you trigger your vestige’s fury ability, you can forgo its normal benefit. Instead, you can spend a swift action to use any available vestige ability whose normal use time is a standard action or less. This ability can only be triggered if the creature you felled had at least 6 HD.

Sublime Pact (Su): At 10th level, when you refresh your maneuvers via your class recovery mechanism or the Adaptive Style feat, all your vestige abilities become available for use on your next turn. This ability has a one-round cooldown.

Elves
2020-04-20, 01:53 PM
Questions

- Full dual progression seems too strong. Where would you put the dead levels for initiating and binding?

- Soul-Guided Strike ability currently gives bonus equal to 1 + half your charisma bonus. Is this too strong or too weak? The goal is to make vestige-granted weapons the optimal choice and to incentivize the use of Seal Power.

- Cannibalize Seal: what action type should it take -- swift, move or standard?

- What benefits should Cannibalize Seal give?

aimlessPolymath
2020-04-20, 04:48 PM
-Soul-guided strike and Infused Weapon feel redundant with each other- they're both a bonus to attack and damage. I'd drop one wholesale, probably the Soul-Guided Strike since adding different stats to combat attributes gets messy (accumulates with stat bonuses, requires you to invest in Str at early levels but then it becomes less important). Grant something else at level 1, because two instances of "more attack and damage while using a vestige weapon" is awkward.
-I can qualify for this purely through Improved Bind Vestige and 4 initiator levels; change to requiring Suppress Sign instead of 2nd level vestiges.
-Sublime Pact sort of boring, I think.
-An active binder seal takes 1 minute to draw, must be activated within one minute and lasts either a round or a minute once active... very specific time requirements for Cannibalize Seal. I'd say a full-round action, but then you act as though bound to the vestige for 10 minutes, or something along those lines- the setup just doesn't make sense for a midcombat buff (until you gain a level, anyway...). I think that there are too many features relating to a physical seal, which requires a fairly specific scenario to be useful. Additionally, some earlier features that enhance binding would be nice- possibly a class-specific stance or boost, like how the Jade Phoenix Mage or Deepstone Sentinel work?
-I feel like the class can lose something like 2-3 levels of initiating and binding each. I'd lose a level of binding around 2 and 4-5, where the binding upgrades are gained, and a level of martial initiation around 1(extra combat numbers) and at one of the levels where the lore from the void feature upgrades- this might involve some feature shuffling. Maybe one less level of binding lost, because the features don't support it as well as they do martial maneuvers.

NigelWalmsley
2020-04-20, 06:18 PM
Class: Two or more levels in a martial adept base class.

This just seems awkward. Why not require 2nd level maneuvers? The optimal entry is Warblade 4/Binder 1 with Improved Binding anyway. You could require access to both and 2nd level of one, I guess.


Infused Weapons (Su): Any weapon granted to you by a vestige (whether natural or manufactured) is treated as a +1 magical weapon. If the weapon already has an enhancement bonus, you may increase the bonus by 1 or grant it a magical weapon property equivalent to a +1 bonus. At levels 4th and 8th, the enhancement bonus this ability grants increases by 1.

It might be helpful to list the vestiges that grant weapons here. I certainly don't remember which they are, and it might reveal holes in the class progression.


Soul-Guided Strike (Su): When making attacks with weapons granted to you by a vestige, you gain an insight bonus on damage rolls equal to your Charisma bonus, if any, and a bonus on attack rolls equal to 1 + half your Charisma bonus, if any.

I think just adding your Charisma modifier to attacks is fine. Though at that point, this should probably be rolled into Infused Weapons. Perhaps change it to have the bonus be your Charisma bonus, with the option to pick up some weapon properties.


Seal Power (Su): Normally, a binder uses seals to invoke a vestige. Starting at 2nd level, you can instead use a seal as a conduit to draw power directly from the void. While standing inside a seal you’ve drawn and whose area is no larger than the space you occupy, you gain your soul-guided strike bonus on all attacks. Remember, seals take 1 minute to draw and lose potency after 1 minute.

This seems... really bad. Like, really, really bad. In exchange for not being able to move, you get a marginal bonus, provided you've found a weapon that's better than whatever your vestige + Infused Weapons gives you. Honestly, I feel like this is just a mistake in general, because it encourages you to not do the thing the class is designed around doing. Oh, and it only lasts ten rounds.


Vestige’s Fury (Su): Starting at 2nd level, whenever you kill or knock out an enemy with an attack made with a weapon granted by a vestige, choose one of that vestige’s granted abilities that is currently on cooldown. It becomes available again 1 round sooner. You can only gain this benefit once per round per vestige.

Is Seal Power supposed to grant you this as well? Anyway, I think a 1-round discount that only triggers when you KO someone is not going to come up a lot. I like the dynamic of encouraging people to target minions before finishing the big boss, though.


Martial Lore from the Void (Su): Starting at 3rd level, when you bind a vestige, you can forgo one of its granted abilities with a five round cooldown. In exchange, you gain the ability to use any one maneuver whose prerequisites you meet (though you need not know its discipline). For the duration of your pact, you can initiate that maneuver once every five rounds. It’s treated as a supernatural ability even if it normally isn’t one. Maneuvers accessed this way don’t count toward prerequisites or requirements of any kind.

This seems real sweet. That said, IME it's not that common to have maneuvers you A) meet the prerequisites for B) don't already have and C) are good. Maybe you're planning on writing more maneuvers?


Improved Soul-Guided Strike (Su): Starting at 4th level, you gain your soul-guided strike bonus whenever you make an attack as part of a vestige ability. In addition, when you initiate a maneuver as part of which you make an attack with a weapon granted to you by a vestige, you can opt to use Charisma as the maneuver’s key skill for the purpose of calculating its save DC.

I'm pretty sure the last part of this is a trap. Unless you're just not investing in your key skills at all, your skill bonus will almost always be bigger than your Charisma bonus. Maybe let them add the Charisma bonus on top of whatever else they're doing?


Cannibalize Seal (Su): Starting at 6th level, while standing in or adjacent to any active binder seal, you can take a standard action to absorb its power, destroying it while bolstering yourself. You gain +2 AC, x benefits. These benefits last as long as the seal would have lasted. Using this ability provokes an attack of opportunity. If the seal has more than a 10-foot diameter, it takes a full round of concentration to use this ability.

I would add the reminder about seal duration here too. Especially because it's probably more relevant here. I think I would have the benefits be specific to vestiges, but only have the ability work with seals of vestiges that activate your "vestige-granted weapons" stuff.


Occult Fury: Starting at 9th level, once per round when you trigger your vestige’s fury ability, you can forgo its normal benefit. Instead, you can spend a swift action to use any available vestige ability whose normal use time is a standard action or less. This ability can only be triggered if the creature you felled had at least 6 HD.

Thank you for remembering and avoiding the bag of rats trick.


Questions

Before anything else, let me say that I'm a big fan of this section. Taking a moment to think about your design choices is always good.


- Full dual progression seems too strong. Where would you put the dead levels for initiating and binding?

The dead levels for initiating are where you take one or three levels of Binder. The dead levels for binding are where you take at least two levels of a martial initiator class. You genuinely don't need a larger penalty than that, especially because it's not like either binding or initiating is full casting-tier powerful. Also, the PrC still has the traditional Theurge problem of the last five levels of your build being ???.

Elves
2020-04-20, 07:30 PM
This seems... really bad. Like, really, really bad. In exchange for not being able to move, you get a marginal bonus, provided you've found a weapon that's better than whatever your vestige + Infused Weapons gives you. Honestly, I feel like this is just a mistake in general, because it encourages you to not do the thing the class is designed around doing. Oh, and it only lasts ten rounds.

-Soul-guided strike and Infused Weapon feel redundant with each other- they're both a bonus to attack and damage.

In response to this, I'll remove Soul-Guided Strike (the 1st level ability) and make it a function of Seal Power.

The intent is that Seal Power is initially circumstantial, but then Martial Seal gives you a way of creating seals on the go (by expending maneuvers, which also potentially synergizes with Martial Lore from the Void).

Cannibalize Seal is there as a way of getting a benefit when you need to move and a seal on the ground in a specific place is no longer useful to you. Right now, you still have to spend a swift action to get that benefit, but maybe it should be a free action.



This seems real sweet. That said, IME it's not that common to have maneuvers you A) meet the prerequisites for B) don't already have and C) are good. Maybe you're planning on writing more maneuvers?
I don't think that's true unless you're a swordsage. There are a lot of maneuvers with 0 prerequisites, especially from disciplines you don't know. Also, the Age of Warriors project includes about 1000 new maneuvers. Finally, an extra maneuver you don't want to use is still useful as a way of putting down a seal with the Martial Seal ability.



I'm pretty sure the last part of this is a trap. Unless you're just not investing in your key skills at all, your skill bonus will almost always be bigger than your Charisma bonus.
Typo. Should say key ability. Straightforward MAD reducer.


I think Cannibalize Seal and Martial Seal have to come sooner...will make adjustments.

Also going to increase infused weapons to a full +5 to compensate for no soul guided strike.

Silva Stormrage
2020-04-20, 09:55 PM
Hey, glad you like my class enough to make your own version of it. Splitting my comments between the differences between our classes and the new class features you added. I am mostly curious about why you made the changes you did. You seem to have tried to weaken and streamline my class.

First, what exactly is your goal power level wise for this class? When I made Pact Bound Knight it was specifically designed to be a stronger than a baseline melee binder because baseline melee binders are tragically weak and was supposed to keep up with a well built warblade/crusader.

Class features which exist in both our classes
Skills: Not sure why you reduced the skills from 4+int to 2+int. It's not a particularly powerful facet of the class and it seems somewhat out of place considering every standard martial adept has a larger amount of skill points. Likewise you removed Knowledge (The Planes) from the chassis? That seems pretty critical to a binder fluff wise.

Soul Guided Strike: The full cha to attack and damage really isn't particularly strong. Due to the class needing to already focus on several attributes it generally gives them about the same level of attack bonus as a regular martial adept with a worse damage ratio for two handed weapons since it isn't multiplied like strength is. I know you are already going to adjust it from your post above but I figured I would comment that full Cha to Hit/Damage doesn't unbalance things from my playtests.

In addition, you limited the bonus to only grant the bonus for weapons that are granted by vestiges instead of weapons which vestiges grant proficiencies for as well. There are a distinct lack of vestiges that grant weapons. There is Amon 1st (Grants a Gore Attack), Eurynome 4th: (Grants a Magic Maul which can't be used by lawful characters and you can't be also bound to Amon), Otiax 6th: (A 2d6 melee touch natural attack), Ipos 6th (A pair of cold iron claws and needs 5 ranks in 2 knowledge skills one of which (The Planes or Religion) aren't class skills for the Bladesinger). 4 Vestiges, 2 of which are mutually exclusive and only one can be used to full attack.

Infused Weapons: Basically the same as mine, I am curious why you felt the need to remove the clause about fixed price enchantments.

Vestige's Fury: I assume you streamlined the influence pool for simplicity's sake? Keeping the most interesting option while removing the aspect of having to power up the resource to fuel it. Was there something you felt too complicated about the pool?

Vestiges of Weaponry/Vestiges of Martial Study: You removed the extra vestiges granted by the PRC. I am kinda curious on your thoughts behind this. With a dual progression PRC your class restricts the second vestige a binder will get to at minimum level 10. That is well over half the campaign limited to a single vestige, which you are also hard locked into selecting one that grants a weapon and as I mentioned above that limits the character quite a lot, and most of them aren't particularly good vestiges in the first place. If you have ever played/DMed for a binder from levels 4-7 it sucks terribly. Without the extra vestiges you push that further even more.

Martial Lore from the Void: Mostly the same but you removed the ability to have the maneuvers qualify for other maneuvers. Why? As someone who is responsible for the Age of Warriors project I would of thought you would like that mechanic. Since all 3rd level or higher maneuvers require at least one other maneuver from that discipline removing that clause limits the binder to only selecting 2nd level or lower maneuvers from various homebrew disciplines. In addition, with the limited vestiges this character will have this ability is quite restricted in options and a character will mostly be limited to 1-2 maneuvers. Not sure if that's the best idea, but I guess it makes the pre req issue less of an issue.

Improved Soul-Guided Strike: You removed the stacking bonus for using a maneuver with a weapon granted by a vestige, I assume for simplicity sake?

Soul Wound: You removed the requirement that the weapon be a vestige granted ability which is mostly fine, this was mostly the same.

Sublime Pact: You made the ability only function for Adaptive Style, did you consider using the various recharge mechanics as a passive effect too powerful? I would also recommend putting the ability to allow you to treat IL as BL and vice versa back in. As NigelWalmsley said it helps the theurge have direction and continue to progress after the 10th level of this PRC.

New Class Features:
Seal Power/Martial Seal: I agree with NigelWalmsley that this is an odd ability. It basically is non functional until you get Martial Seal. Also I am really confused about how these are supposed to work fluff wise. How is sacrificing temporarily the ability to use a mundane sword swing granting you the ability to create a portal to the void? Also each vestige has a unique seal and they don't actually do anything unless the binder does the associated ritual to draw the vestige into the seal. What exactly are you drawing power from? Emptiness in general? I am not really sure what the class is doing to draw power from these seals.

Cannibalize Seal: Swift seems fine for this, it functions as a boost essentially. Spending a standard action for +2 AC for one minute is... not worth an action at 11th level. For extra abilities I would like to see something akin to my "Martial Soul Binding" class feature in my class, something that lets you use maneuvers in tandem with vestige abilities or perhaps some other synergy between the two base classes. Like when you have the bonuses from Cannibalize Seal and someone fails a save against a single target vestige ability you can "Enter the void and reappear behind them" teleporting to their location and using a strike against them. Or something like that.




As for the Dual Progression I would heavily heavily recommend keeping it at full dual progression. Every single dual progression PRC that doesn't have full progression (True Necromancer for example) is incredibly weak. And both initiating and binding are not particularly powerful in the first place. Losing a full vestige level and maneuver/stance level as well as less maneuvers and stances known/readied is a sizeable downside. Plus the restrictions on what weapons you can use and the MAD associated with this class makes it not a strict power upgrade for initiators. (It probably is for melee binders but melee binders cry themselves to sleep right now so I think that's fine :smalltongue: )


I wasn't sure if it was fine to post the comments relating to my class here but I was mostly curious on the decisions you made and why. Feel free to post any comments or critiques on my class as well if you think there are issues there :smallbiggrin: !

Elves
2020-04-21, 01:55 AM
Hi Silva, hope you don't mind me modifying your class. Yes, the goal was to simplify. The point where it got beyond just editing the class down into a streamlined form was where I wanted to add the powers based on seals, which I think is a cool concept to use if it can be made to work.

If you have other ideas on how to have powers based on the binder's seal I'd love to hear them. For the seal to be something you get a benefit for standing in was just the most basic way to do it.

It certainly does incentivize the use of reach weapons and ranged weapons, though.


Maybe the gameplay would be more engaging if -- instead of only getting the benefit while inside the seal -- starting or ending your turn in the seal, or even simply passing through it, granted you the buff for 1 round. So then the gameplay is you don't have to stay in the seal but you want to be in it once per round.

A way you could add complexity would be to have different seal benefits, so it could even be that you have different seals on the ground and want to pass through all of them or pass through specific ones as needed. But that seems like it may be getting too fancy.

Alternately, the ability could simply allow for a seal of larger size, giving you more room to maneuver within it.


Skills: Not sure why you reduced the skills from 4+int to 2+int.
It's just using the lower of the two classes' skill points, but maybe worth reverting given that it's not really a disincentive, just an annoyance. Added back k(planes) as you suggest.


Soul Guided Strike: The full cha to attack and damage really isn't particularly strong. [..] I know you are already going to adjust it from your post above but I figured I would comment that full Cha to Hit/Damage doesn't unbalance things from my playtests.
Full Cha to attack still iffy IMO except on low point buys. That easily becomes +10 to hit at higher levels.


In addition, you limited the bonus to only grant the bonus for weapons that are granted by vestiges instead of weapons which vestiges grant proficiencies for as well. There are a distinct lack of vestiges that grant weapons.
Very good point, thanks for looking through. Do you know which ones grant proficiencies?


Vestige's Fury: I assume you streamlined the influence pool for simplicity's sake? Keeping the most interesting option while removing the aspect of having to power up the resource to fuel it. Was there something you felt too complicated about the pool?
Yeah, I think having a whole extra thing and then multiple options there was too much, although there is one thing I did like, which was the idea of the vestige possessing you and forcing you to attack a random foe. I was thinking about other ways to bring out that theme of the vestige possessing you, but losing control of your character is hard to balance so I went with the seals concept instead. I'd love to hear any ideas you have in that vein though.


Vestiges of Weaponry/Vestiges of Martial Study: You removed the extra vestiges granted by the PRC. I am kinda curious on your thoughts behind this. With a dual progression PRC your class restricts the second vestige a binder will get to at minimum level 10. That is well over half the campaign limited to a single vestige, which you are also hard locked into selecting one that grants a weapon and as I mentioned above that limits the character quite a lot, and most of them aren't particularly good vestiges in the first place. If you have ever played/DMed for a binder from levels 4-7 it sucks terribly. Without the extra vestiges you push that further even more.
That's a valid point since I've never seen a binder in real play. It's basically just about balancing it with the base binder. You're already getting dual progression plus additional class features. You do eventually get to 3 vestiges.


Martial Lore from the Void: Mostly the same but you removed the ability to have the maneuvers qualify for other maneuvers. Why? As someone who is responsible for the Age of Warriors project I would of thought you would like that mechanic. Since all 3rd level or higher maneuvers require at least one other maneuver from that discipline removing that clause limits the binder to only selecting 2nd level or lower maneuvers from various homebrew disciplines.
I definitely do like the way that ability lets you try out new disciplines. Having this line would incentivize using it on all your vestiges, but it's a reasonable thing


Sublime Pact: You made the ability only function for Adaptive Style, did you consider using the various recharge mechanics as a passive effect too powerful? I would also recommend putting the ability to allow you to treat IL as BL and vice versa back in. As NigelWalmsley said it helps the theurge have direction and continue to progress after the 10th level of this PRC.
Will put back the last line. I don't like having the Adaptive Style prereq simply because the capstone requires it, but I want it to be a full-round action for everyone. It could just be no feat, "as a special full round action you can recharge all vestige abilities and refresh all maneuvers", but that also cheapens Adaptive Style for those characters.



Seal Power/Martial Seal: I agree with NigelWalmsley that this is an odd ability. It basically is non functional until you get Martial Seal.
Going to move the other seal abilities down 1 or 2 levels. As above, will either expand the possible seal size to give you more space, or simply make it so you only have to pass through or end/begin your turn in the seal to get the benefit for 1 round. Intent is still that it starts as a circumstantial thing but then once you get martial seal becomes part of your standard MO.


Also I am really confused about how these are supposed to work fluff wise.
It's just like the seal is an occult sigil that connects you to the void and charges you with some vague form of magical energies from there.

As mentioned above, I considered having different seal effects (which would be based on which vestige's seal it was). There are a bunch of vestiges though and that just gets too complex.

Maybe it could be simplified if we only have benefits for the vestiges that grant weapons and proficiencies.


Cannibalize Seal: Swift seems fine for this, it functions as a boost essentially. Spending a standard action for +2 AC for one minute is... not worth an action at 11th level. For extra abilities I would like to see something akin to my "Martial Soul Binding" class feature in my class, something that lets you use maneuvers in tandem with vestige abilities or perhaps some other synergy between the two base classes. Like when you have the bonuses from Cannibalize Seal and someone fails a save against a single target vestige ability you can "Enter the void and reappear behind them" teleporting to their location and using a strike against them. Or something like that.
Let me think...so the point of this ability is basically as a consolation prize for when you need to move and a particular seal is no longer useful to you, you don't need it anymore so then you absorb it for some form of small boost. So it shouldn't be something that's an actual action, nor should it be a buff you want constant uptime on, it should just be a small benefit. Maybe fast healing or a speed boost or something.

Or, here's a thought, maybe you cannibalize it and then that lets you rapidly redraw it somewhere else. So after you use cannibalize seal, then for one round afterward, you gain the ability to draw a single seal somewhere else as a swift action. The energy flows back out of you onto the floor or something. That would be a different way to do it. Or that could be a feat.

Thoughts?

Old Harry MTX
2020-04-21, 04:16 AM
Let me say first that I'm a bit rusty on 3.5 edition, by the way if I recall the PRCs from the ToB that give a maneuvers progression have the actual values expressed in the tables, instead of a "+1 level of initiating class", am I right?

Also why don't you introduce the ability to draw a seal while performing a maneuver? Maybe it will occur more maneuver to do that

Elves
2020-04-21, 09:07 PM
Let me say first that I'm a bit rusty on 3.5 edition, by the way if I recall the PRCs from the ToB that give a maneuvers progression have the actual values expressed in the tables, instead of a "+1 level of initiating class", am I right?
Because this class isn't linked flavorwise to any particular disciplines + bc the wording prevents double dipping on IL, I think it's more flexible this way.


Also why don't you introduce the ability to draw a seal while performing a maneuver? Maybe it will occur more maneuver to do that
Maybe you get to draw a seal when you refresh via Adaptive Style? That could be a way of tying in Adaptive Style earlier than the capstone, which as I mentioned, bugs me.

Silva Stormrage
2020-04-26, 10:29 PM
Hi Silva, hope you don't mind me modifying your class. Yes, the goal was to simplify. The point where it got beyond just editing the class down into a streamlined form was where I wanted to add the powers based on seals, which I think is a cool concept to use if it can be made to work.

If you have other ideas on how to have powers based on the binder's seal I'd love to hear them. For the seal to be something you get a benefit for standing in was just the most basic way to do it.

Let me think...so the point of this ability is basically as a consolation prize for when you need to move and a particular seal is no longer useful to you, you don't need it anymore so then you absorb it for some form of small boost. So it shouldn't be something that's an actual action, nor should it be a buff you want constant uptime on, it should just be a small benefit. Maybe fast healing or a speed boost or something.

Or, here's a thought, maybe you cannibalize it and then that lets you rapidly redraw it somewhere else. So after you use cannibalize seal, then for one round afterward, you gain the ability to draw a single seal somewhere else as a swift action. The energy flows back out of you onto the floor or something. That would be a different way to do it. Or that could be a feat.

Thoughts?
I think I would of prefered you asked me first since your class uses a lot of my class's class features but I am fine with people using my homebrew and you linked my class so it is all good.

And you haven't seen a binder played. That makes a lot of this make a lot more sense, I think you might be overestimating the power of the binder half of this PRC. I would highly recommend trying to make a couple example characters with this PRC and compare it to a standard warblade or crusader. Preferably create one at levels 5, 10 and 15 so you can get all ranges. Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?358392-The-new-quick-vestige-list) is a good easily searchable list of vestiges to look through their abilities.

You might find that most of the vestiges for melee binders are absolutely terrible. The Binder's main power level to bring them into tier 3 range is almost solely backed by Zerycll and their ability to spam out summoned monsters. I started out with my class likewise with much fewer class features and it being fairly weaker. It ended up being outclassed in pretty much every way by a standard warblade and the binder aspect of the class really was just a flavor thing. Like the cha to hit might seem incredibly powerful as you noted but a standard warblade or even crusader can just focus on strength instead. The end result is usually something like +3-4 at most considering the opportunity cost of a lower strength score and the lower BAB from the required binder levels.

I do like the concept of drawing down seals and dancing between them but spending a standard action to draw them is going to be nigh unusable in any actual combat. I would frankly make the seals automatically drawn when you use a vestige ability that uses a weapon such as Paimon’s Dance of Blades. Then balance the seal buffs based on them being available most of the time.

Elves
2020-04-27, 01:36 AM
I think I would of prefered you asked me first since your class uses a lot of my class's class features but I am fine with people using my homebrew and you linked my class so it is all good.

And you haven't seen a binder played. That makes a lot of this make a lot more sense, I think you might be overestimating the power of the binder half of this PRC.
At the same time, this seems like a problem with the base binder class getting too few vestiges. Any change a table makes to the binder will carry over to this class via the soul binding progression. I'd rather lay the prerogative there than try to fix binder via a patch in a theurge prc that makes it better than the base class.


You might find that most of the vestiges for melee binders are absolutely terrible. The Binder's main power level to bring them into tier 3 range is almost solely backed by Zerycll and their ability to spam out summoned monsters. I started out with my class likewise with much fewer class features and it being fairly weaker. It ended up being outclassed in pretty much every way by a standard warblade and the binder aspect of the class really was just a flavor thing. Like the cha to hit might seem incredibly powerful as you noted but a standard warblade or even crusader can just focus on strength instead. The end result is usually something like +3-4 at most considering the opportunity cost of a lower strength score and the lower BAB from the required binder levels.
the default build here is binder 4/initiator1/bladebinder 10/binder or initiator +5
initiator: you're losing 2 ILs, 2 BAB and then capstone for 14th level binding (3 vestiges)
binder: you're losing capstone abilities in exchange for IL 13 initiating, stances and maneuvers
seems like a pretty great trade on both sides, especially on the binder side where you're literally only losing 1 level.

I'd be interested if you would detail how it could be completely outclassed.

MAD seems like an issue here only on low pointbuy and in the case of warblade you lose nothing by dumping int if you go binder after this class.



I do like the concept of drawing down seals and dancing between them but spending a standard action to draw them is going to be nigh unusable in any actual combat.
it's a swift action with Martial Seal right now, but it could be made a free action since you're sacrificing something. What did you think of the idea that entering a seal would grant you the buff for 1 round?

Silva Stormrage
2020-04-28, 12:14 AM
At the same time, this seems like a problem with the base binder class getting too few vestiges. Any change a table makes to the binder will carry over to this class via the soul binding progression. I'd rather lay the prerogative there than try to fix binder via a patch in a theurge prc that makes it better than the base class.


the default build here is binder 4/initiator1/bladebinder 10/binder or initiator +5
initiator: you're losing 2 ILs, 2 BAB and then capstone for 14th level binding (3 vestiges)
binder: you're losing capstone abilities in exchange for IL 13 initiating, stances and maneuvers
seems like a pretty great trade on both sides, especially on the binder side where you're literally only losing 1 level.

I'd be interested if you would detail how it could be completely outclassed.

MAD seems like an issue here only on low pointbuy and in the case of warblade you lose nothing by dumping int if you go binder after this class.



it's a swift action with Martial Seal right now, but it could be made a free action since you're sacrificing something. What did you think of the idea that entering a seal would grant you the buff for 1 round?

That's fair that the changes I am trying to fix should really be thrown into the binder as a base class. However, I feel DMs are much less likely to approve a homebrew PRC AND a homebrew fix to a base class so I prefered to throw on the fix in the PRC. To each his own on that one though.

The default build only has one initiator level for Bladebinder? How is that possible you require 2 levels of an initiator for Bladebinder. Did you mean Pactbound Knight there? And again that was my PRC's rough draft, it didn't have a lot of the class features it has now. The end result was mostly that the binder aspect of the class was effectively meaningless compared to the warblade or crusader aspect. The rough draft class played like a weaker ToB class that had a few out of combat utility options (I was playing as if the binder would not select Zerycll as I dislike balancing binders around a single vestige). With Pactbound knight they also need to burn 2 feats on things pretty irrelevant to fighting, adaptive style and improved binding. In my playtests the binder side of the PRC was actually less effective then just getting feats like Improved Trip and Power Attack. Especially at levels 5-10 which is where the beta version of Pact Bound Knights were being outclassed.

And again as a side note on MAD, in order to do more than just full attack as melee the feat combat expertise is pretty critical and that requires 13 int. So now you need Strength, Con, Charisma and a decent int score. It adds up after a while. And you need int for your maneuvers until you reach 4th level which is level 9. Many campaigns don't go beyond levels 8-12 which means that you need more int if you want to use any maneuver with a saving throw for more than 80% of the campaign.

The main reason though behind why they were so outclassed was in fact point buy, weapon selection and more importantly racial choice. A lot of the best melee templates are mostly incompatible with Binder or the PRC. Water Orc, Anthropomorphic Whale, The Feral and Mineral Warrior Templates, etc. Many pure melee templates drop mental ability scores and almost no templates beyond draconic boost Str and Cha. While Crusaders and Warblades can survive with having a 14-18 mental ability score the binder side of the PRC really struggled to keep up in relevance. As for the weapons my beta version didn't have any bonuses to their weapons beyond making them magical, so that aspect has mostly been fixed via the Infused Weapon class feature. I had dramatically underestimated just how bad Binder weapons were XD


But back to the Bladesinger and their seal mechanics.

I think the swift action cost is still too expensive right now with how reliant ToB classes are with their swift actions. They should usually be using a counter/boost or recovering maneuvers every round. The seals bonuses really If you wanted to combine the actions so that the seal gets drawn whenever they activate a boost I think that would work too, but forcing the player to choose between Sudden Jump, White Raven Tactics or Moment of Perfect Mind or using one of the main class abilities they have seems a bit off.

I do like the concept of getting the buff simply via moving through the seal. It does punish full attackers a bit though but that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Nifft
2020-05-03, 05:02 PM
If I were to use this, I'd care more about the +1 Binder / +1 Initiator every level than basically anything else. It would be preferable to remove other class features before removing the 10/10 progressions.

Some suggestions:

- Some of the Vestiges provide weapons which scale with EBL, so there's no need to provide an enhancement bonus.

- It'd be cool if you got some perk for using those Vestige weapons.

- Vestiges come with specific personalities, affiliated tropes, and flavor. Granting a bonus Maneuver known for each bound Vestige would be cool, and should come from a Vestige-specific list which reflects each Vestige's flavor. Yes this is a bunch of work, sorry.

NigelWalmsley
2020-05-03, 05:40 PM
- Some of the Vestiges provide weapons which scale with EBL, so there's no need to provide an enhancement bonus.

- It'd be cool if you got some perk for using those Vestige weapons.

- Vestiges come with specific personalities, affiliated tropes, and flavor. Granting a bonus Maneuver known for each bound Vestige would be cool, and should come from a Vestige-specific list which reflects each Vestige's flavor. Yes this is a bunch of work, sorry.

My idea (which I kind of got at in my initial comments) would be to just write up stuff for specifically the vestiges that give you a weapon. Yes, that kind of screws you if you like Agares or whatever, but it saves a lot of effort and the class is pushing that way already.

Elves
2020-05-03, 06:30 PM
Some of the Vestiges provide weapons which scale with EBL, so there's no need to provide an enhancement bonus.
Will go back and read them over.


Vestiges come with specific personalities, affiliated tropes, and flavor. Granting a bonus Maneuver known for each bound Vestige would be cool, and should come from a Vestige-specific list which reflects each Vestige's flavor. Yes this is a bunch of work, sorry.
This is how it was in the original binder/initiator class we were going to use, it's not that it's more work it's just too long. I feel the Martial Lore from the Void ability, which was from Silva's class, is a more elegant way of doing that.


My idea (which I kind of got at in my initial comments) would be to just write up stuff for specifically the vestiges that give you a weapon. Yes, that kind of screws you if you like Agares or whatever, but it saves a lot of effort and the class is pushing that way already.
I've decided on just writing a couple new Tome of Battle themed vestiges that grant weapons. Also doing new soulmelds and new shadowcaster mysteries so may as well.


As I mentioned above, where I would add customization based on vestiges is to give different bonuses for the Seal Power ability based on which vestige's seal you choose to draw. I have to see if that can be done in a compressed way.

Maybe the unique vestige benefit is gained only when standing in the seal, but the hit/damage bonus is gained for 1 round every time you enter the seal?

RecordedChaos
2020-05-05, 11:19 PM
Interesting! is the idea that specific vestiges will grant access to more maneuvers or empower them?

Elves
2020-05-06, 01:55 AM
Interesting! is the idea that specific vestiges will grant access to more maneuvers or empower them?

On reflection, theming the seal bonuses on specific vestiges isn't practical. Better to do something like three 'generic' seals, eg, seal of power, seal of whatever, seal of strength. Question is, would these override the initiating bonuses provided by martial seal? It's certainly too complex to then have 3 sets of seal bonuses.


Come to think of it, why not also have a way to use seals offensively? say, a DOT one, an entangle one, and one that stuns you if you end your turn in it.


Although at this point seems like that could almost be its own Binder PRC, themed around throwing down occult seals everywhere as buffs and battlefield control. Have to make it not clash with the core theme of this class, which is about martial initiating.