Free wishes without Items or Monsters?

[magicalmagicman]

No items. So no Candle of Invocation, no Ambrosia and Liquid Pain to craft scrolls of Wishes, no Rods of Excellent Magic, and no custom magic item of free wishes.
No monsters. So no Shapechange into Zodar, no Planar Binding Efreetis, no Mirror Mephit familiars creating simulacra of Efreetis, no Runic Guardians or Grisgols, no Ur-Priest stealing Wish SLAs from Pit Fiends, and no calling Pazuzu.

From my other thread, the only two methods I found are:
1. Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell class feature.
2. Divine Agent's Godly Gift class feature.

Are there anymore?

Dragon Magazine
1. Master of the Secret Sound. Wish-like ability as a SLA
2. Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu. Wish-like ability as a SLA.

Iffy but maybe
1. Visionary Seeker. Need to see a Wish to copy it for free. Best way to solve this is to use a free wish to create a ton of scrolls of wishes. At which point it is disqualified for relying on items.

[Quertus]

Sculpt Self?

[Buufreak]

Ur priest.

[Quertus]

Ur priest.


No monsters. So no… no Ur-Priest stealing Wish SLAs from Pit Fiends.

So, how, then, could an Ur-Priest manage it?

[Buufreak]

I must have overlooked that. {scrubbed}

[Kayblis]

I believe you got them all. If you restrict the good options, all that is left is the few edge cases that work on everything.

That's kinda like asking "I want to attack with a manufactured weapon, but I refuse to wield all kinds of manufactured weapons. Other than Monk's unarmed attack, how can I do it?". You don't. You eliminated all good options and cited the one edge case. If all those are unacceptable options for you, you can't do it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Supernatural Transformation (Psionics).

Supernatural abilities don't have XP costs, although you do still have to spend power points.

Either get wish from a Convert Spell to Power erudite or realize that reality revision is basically identical to wish (with the only real exception being that it focuses on emulating powers instead of spells).

Also, how about (greater) fabricate to create a Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) of wish? It's a non magical item, so the fabricate series works to make one, and I don't believe (Ex) abilities cost XP either.

[daremetoidareyo]

Spell thematics (I wish for a fireball)

[The Viscount]

You can also use supernatural transformation along with Archmage or Hierophant selecting spell-like ability for wish.

[magicalmagicman]

I must have overlooked that. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

No.

I was going to make a thread about optimizing Divine Agent as that PrC can get free wishes at level 14 and is at a lower optimization tier than dweomerkeeper but I thought there might be a PrC I didn't know about that could do it even earlier so I made this thread. Because I would definitely lose interest in Divine Agent if there was a PrC that got free wishes earlier.

{scrubbed}


I believe you got them all. If you restrict the good options, all that is left is the few edge cases that work on everything.

That's kinda like asking "I want to attack with a manufactured weapon, but I refuse to wield all kinds of manufactured weapons. Other than Monk's unarmed attack, how can I do it?". You don't. You eliminated all good options and cited the one edge case. If all those are unacceptable options for you, you can't do it.

It's not restricting good options. It's more about obtaining the ability yourself. I've been in quite a few campaigns where planar travel is impossible and the surrounding towns are all farming villages. That and being able to spam wish yourself is more badass than getting someone else to do it for you.


Sculpt Self?

Not believe I am familiar with this one. Looked it up and didn't understand it. Could you elaborate?


Supernatural Transformation (Psionics).

Supernatural abilities don't have XP costs, although you do still have to spend power points.

Either get wish from a Convert Spell to Power erudite or realize that reality revision is basically identical to wish (with the only real exception being that it focuses on emulating powers instead of spells).

Also, how about (greater) fabricate to create a Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) of wish? It's a non magical item, so the fabricate series works to make one, and I don't believe (Ex) abilities cost XP either.

Finally finished researching this. Found a rule in XPH that says all powers manifested are psi-like abilities. So if you grab the Ardent's Magic Mantle which explicitly treats spells and powers as identical, then arguably anything that affects SLAs also affect PLAs. Which means you can grab Supernatural Transformation to turn any power into a Su ability.

Don't know about ravenloft. Don't have access to it so can't comment on it.


You can also use supernatural transformation along with Archmage or Hierophant selecting spell-like ability for wish.

That's true!

edit: Actually even with Supernatural Transformation, it is arguable that the XP costs still applies as that XP cost is not a general rule, it's a specific rule tied to the SLA in question, so when the SLA turns into a Su ability, it still would have that XP cost rule.

[Buufreak]

No.

I was going to make a thread about optimizing Divine Agent

{scrubbed}

[magicalmagicman]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}

[MaxiDuRaritry]

edit: Actually even with Supernatural Transformation, it is arguable that the XP costs still applies as that XP cost is not a general rule, it's a specific rule tied to the SLA in question, so when the SLA turns into a Su ability, it still would have that XP cost rule.XP costs are listed as spell components, though, which Supernatural Abilities lack.

[magicalmagicman]

XP costs are listed as spell components, though, which Supernatural Abilities lack.

Yes, but Archmage SLAs xp component is listed in the SLA description.

So Psi-like into Su works like you said.
Archmage SLA into Su might not.



Actually, thinking about it, you might be right?

Archmage Class Feature - Has the XP cost specific rule
Spell description - Has XP cost as component

So when the Supernatural turns an Archmage Class Feature into a Su ability, does the class feature restrictions also follow?

[sorcererlover]

Supernatural Transformation on Powers doesn't work.

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

Supernatural abilities are magical. They don’t function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated, such as in an antimagic fi eld. However, these abilities can’t be disrupted in combat, as spells can. Supernatural abilities aren’t subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.
Just like spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities might have a use limit or be usable at will. A supernatural ability takes a standard action to use unless otherwise noted in the ability description. Using a supernatural ability doesn’t usually provoke attacks of opportunity. They never require Concentration checks.
Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice

Neither definition of Supernatural Abilities mention components. So you DON'T ignore the material or XP components by default. Because there is no general rule.

Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell directly mentions excluding components but that doesn't make it a general rule.

Also the XP cost of psionic powers are not a component. They are categorized as "cost".

[magicalmagicman]

Supernatural Transformation on Powers doesn't work.



Neither definition of Supernatural Abilities mention components. So you DON'T ignore the material or XP components by default. Because there is no general rule.

Dweomerkeeper's Supernatural Spell directly mentions excluding components but that doesn't make it a general rule.

Also the XP cost of psionic powers are not a component. They are categorized as "cost".

Hmm. You're right. The no components thing is mentioned only in SLAs.

Bah, got excited for nothing.

[Buufreak]

{scrubbed}

[Troacctid]

Master of the Secret Sound and Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu both have a free wish ability at level 10.

Visionary Seeker can give you SLA wishes if you pair them with regular wishes. At level 9, you can get up to 2 extra wishes per day for free this way by observing someone (who could be yourself) casting the spell. At level 10, it increases to 3/day.

[Cruiser1]

No items. No Ambrosia and Liquid Pain to craft scrolls of Wishes... Are there anymore?Yes, this method: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?268501-3-5-Metamagic-Wish-Wishing-for-Infinite-Wishes

But wait, isn't that using items? No, not really. :smalltongue: The items are created out of thin air using your spells, and consumed when used. So it works if you're trapped in a demi-plane naked with no access to any monsters or items (other than your spellbook if you're a Wizard).

The only limitation is you have to cast Wish once, to create yourself the necessary magic item to get things started. Wish to create a magic item of a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish (which has an extra 17440 XP embedded within it). That means your initial casting of Wish will cost you 5000 + 17440x2 = 39880 XP. That's a huge amount of XP, although a level 20 character who chooses to only level up to 17, will have 54000 XP available to use.

This method allows any character with Wish on their spell list to achieve infinite free wishes, that aren't dependent upon any existing items or other creatures. That's true wishes with nigh infinite XP embedded within them, so you can wish for +Google weapons and amulets of natural armor +Google. The only non-core components is it requires the feats Twin Spell and Repeat Spell from CA to exist in the campaign world (but not for you to have those feats yourself).

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Thread re-opened. Please keep discussion civil.

[magicalmagicman]

Master of the Secret Sound and Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu both have a free wish ability at level 10.

Visionary Seeker can give you SLA wishes if you pair them with regular wishes. At level 9, you can get up to 2 extra wishes per day for free this way by observing someone (who could be yourself) casting the spell. At level 10, it increases to 3/day.

Master of the Secret Sound checks out. On top of being a Sp ability, it replicates an effect not the spell.
Thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu also checks out. Directly says it replicates wish except a few things.

Visionary Seeker is a little iffy because needing that first wish is either not free or requires another monster. Maybe we can figure out a way around that. Most likely using your first Free Wish to create a billion scrolls of wishes.


Yes, this method: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?268501-3-5-Metamagic-Wish-Wishing-for-Infinite-Wishes

But wait, isn't that using items? No, not really. :smalltongue: The items are created out of thin air using your spells, and consumed when used. So it works if you're trapped in a demi-plane naked with no access to any monsters or items (other than your spellbook if you're a Wizard).

The only limitation is you have to cast Wish once, to create yourself the necessary magic item to get things started. Wish to create a magic item of a Scroll of Twin Repeat Wish (which has an extra 17440 XP embedded within it). That means your initial casting of Wish will cost you 5000 + 17440x2 = 39880 XP. That's a huge amount of XP, although a level 20 character who chooses to only level up to 17, will have 54000 XP available to use.

This method allows any character with Wish on their spell list to achieve infinite free wishes, that aren't dependent upon any existing items or other creatures. That's true wishes with nigh infinite XP embedded within them, so you can wish for +Google weapons and amulets of natural armor +Google. The only non-core components is it requires the feats Twin Spell and Repeat Spell from CA to exist in the campaign world (but not for you to have those feats yourself).

It's still using an item. I've read about someone using DMM:Twin and DMM:Repeat wish to create 4 rods of excellent magic using Extract Demonic Essence to make the initial xp cost manageable. And creating Thought Bottles for that whole nested loop thing.

Not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the ability to directly cast Wish for free either with feats, PrCs, a mix of them, or the like. Just for fun.

[Kayblis]

It's not restricting good options. It's more about obtaining the ability yourself. I've been in quite a few campaigns where planar travel is impossible and the surrounding towns are all farming villages. That and being able to spam wish yourself is more badass than getting someone else to do it for you.


Real talk: Do you think that your DM, who specifically made so planar travel is impossible and every town around you is irrelevant in terms of magic, will allow for anything even remotely close to infinite wishes? This kind of DM usually doesn't let people get near even Limited Wish. The position you're finding yourself in pretty much discards all possiblity of having any trick work, regardless of method. This isn't a capability problem, it's a personal problem. Your DM wants a different kind of game than you. Even if you did find a way to use it by yourself(like the already mentioned Dweomerkeeper or any Psionic trick), you probably wouldn't be able to use it in-game, making the exercise pointless.

Also, Supernatural Transformation only affects innate SLAs. This makes any class-based SLAs invalid.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also, Supernatural Transformation only affects innate SLAs. This makes any class-based SLAs invalid.Psionics is explicitly innate, no matter the source.

[magicalmagicman]

Real talk: Do you think that your DM, who specifically made so planar travel is impossible and every town around you is irrelevant in terms of magic, will allow for anything even remotely close to infinite wishes? This kind of DM usually doesn't let people get near even Limited Wish. The position you're finding yourself in pretty much discards all possiblity of having any trick work, regardless of method. This isn't a capability problem, it's a personal problem. Your DM wants a different kind of game than you. Even if you did find a way to use it by yourself(like the already mentioned Dweomerkeeper or any Psionic trick), you probably wouldn't be able to use it in-game, making the exercise pointless.

Also, Supernatural Transformation only affects innate SLAs. This makes any class-based SLAs invalid.

Planar Travel is limited in some short campaigns or some short parts of a long campaign. He's not a ban happy DM. I suspect he'll allow me to get away with Free Wishes if I use Divine Agent to obtain them and if I use it in a way that doesn't break the game. And if he doesn't it doesn't matter. I'm bored and I want to build an interesting character and Divine Agent piqued my interest.

Supernatural Transformation doesn't matter. There is no rule text saying you get to ignore spell components if you transform it into a Su ability. So turning powers into Su abilities doesn't matter. And as the poster above me pointed out, XPH explicitly says psionic powers are innate.

[Quertus]

Also, how about (greater) fabricate to create a Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) of wish? It's a non magical item, so the fabricate series works to make one, and I don't believe (Ex) abilities cost XP either.

Is… is that possible by RAW?!


Not believe I am familiar with this one. Looked it up and didn't understand it. Could you elaborate?

Now that the thread is unlocked, yes! :smallbiggrin:

Really short answer, it's like an item creating feat, except a) anyone can take it; b) the "item" you are crafting is "yourself"; c) you are making yourself more like a monster; d) you pay entirely in XP (so it would work even if you're naked / have Vow of Poverty); e) the cost is doubled. So, *if* you can pick a monster (which might be a problem, depending on your scenario - ie, if the campaign premise is "monsters don't exist") to evolve into, choose one with some ability to cast Wish, pay exorbitant amounts of XP, and you can do so, too.

I personally love the feat, but it's… rarely the *best* way to accomplish anything.


That means your initial casting of Wish will cost you 5000 + 17440x2 = 39880 XP. That's a huge amount of XP, although a level 20 character who chooses to only level up to 17, will have 54000 XP available to use.

I'm not sure that "choosing not to level" is valid…

[Thurbane]

Just FYI, I was recently viewing Rich Baker's warlock faq (https://web.archive.org/web/20071210095404/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=405215), and found that his view on Supernatural Transformation aligns with mine. It's not RAW, certainly, but I think at can be cited as RAI, at least from one dev:


Q: Can the feat Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species change the Warlocks Eldritch Blast and Invocations from Spell Like Abilities to Supernatural Abilities?

A: I chatted with the developers, and we're of the opinion that the term "innate" in the description of the Supernatural Transformation feat means "spell-like abilities you got because of your race, not because of any class choices you might have made." So that would rule out the warlock's invocations and eldritch blast.

That said, we're not 100% sure that the feat would necessarily be broken for the warlock. The warlock is a pretty feat-thirsty class, so there is a real cost in picking this up to make your eldritch blast SR-proof, when you've got an eldritch essence available that can do the same thing. But just to be on the cautious side, we're saying no. Rule Zero us on this one if you like.

(As an aside...we've discovered that the word "innate" is one of those flavor words that often carries a mechanical connotation, and it's not always meant to. So be careful in trying to extend this particular ruling to other "innate" things, because "innate" seems to mean different things in different contexts.)

[Endarire]

Shadowcraft Mage for shadow miracles. Since you don't cast them, only mimic them, you don't pay the EXP/material components for casting them.

Also, shapechange into something with wish as a (Su), or be a Planar Shepherd9+ who Wild Shapes into something with a (Sp) or (Su) wish.

[magicalmagicman]

Just FYI, I was recently viewing Rich Baker's warlock faq (https://web.archive.org/web/20071210095404/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=405215), and found that his view on Supernatural Transformation aligns with mine. It's not RAW, certainly, but I think at can be cited as RAI, at least from one dev:

Doesn't matter because as sorcerorlover pointed out, the only benefit of turning a power into a Su ability is that it ignores spell resistance and doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. You still have to pay all costs in full.


Now that the thread is unlocked, yes! :smallbiggrin:

Really short answer, it's like an item creating feat, except a) anyone can take it; b) the "item" you are crafting is "yourself"; c) you are making yourself more like a monster; d) you pay entirely in XP (so it would work even if you're naked / have Vow of Poverty); e) the cost is doubled. So, *if* you can pick a monster (which might be a problem, depending on your scenario - ie, if the campaign premise is "monsters don't exist") to evolve into, choose one with some ability to cast Wish, pay exorbitant amounts of XP, and you can do so, too.

I personally love the feat, but it's… rarely the *best* way to accomplish anything.

How much does it cost to obtain Wish with sculpt self? If you have to homebrew on top of being a dragon magazine thing... then yeah....

[tyckspoon]

Is… is that possible by RAW?!


eh.. yes, I think so, but it's kind of a cheat, or.. I should say a huge stylistic/in-world fluff conflict? 'Devices' are supposed to be Mad Science. Instead of casting Raise Dead, you build a Frankenstein-style rig to re-energize somebody's Vital Essence by CAPTURING THE RAW POWER OF LIGHTNING *insert dramatic thunder, maniacal laughter here* They really shouldn't exist unless you're in a setting where that kind of thing is appropriate. Like, say, Ravenloft, the D&D setting for Gothic Horror and a place where trying to entreat the gods to return your friend to life has 'You get nothing but mocking laughter' rated among the good outcomes...

Which is to say yes, if you treat the rules as nothing but interchangeable mechanical widgets you can probably Fabricate a 'non-magical' Device for any arbitrary magical effect, but it's an enormously out-of-place idea in your typical D&D world. They belong to places where the 'mad wizard' archetype is an eccentric inventor working in a lab in the gloomy basement of their disheveled family manor, not ones where the mad wizard is a literal mad wizard.

[sorcererlover]

Shadowcraft Mage for shadow miracles. Since you don't cast them, only mimic them, you don't pay the EXP/material components for casting them.

Miracle isn't wish. It can't make magic items on top of other things.


Also, shapechange into something with wish as a (Su), or be a Planar Shepherd9+ who Wild Shapes into something with a (Sp) or (Su) wish.


No monsters. So no Shapechange into Zodar, no Planar Binding Efreetis, no Mirror Mephit familiars creating simulacra of Efreetis, no Runic Guardians or Grisgols, no Ur-Priest stealing Wish SLAs from Pit Fiends, and no calling Pazuzu.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Just FYI, I was recently viewing Rich Baker's warlock faq (https://web.archive.org/web/20071210095404/http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=405215), and found that his view on Supernatural Transformation aligns with mine. It's not RAW, certainly, but I think at can be cited as RAI, at least from one dev:No matter what they think about things, all psionics is explicitly described as innate. If they wanted it to be "innate racial abilities," they should have said so in the feat (or the errata).

[Thurbane]

No matter what they think about things, all psionics is explicitly described as innate. If they wanted it to be "innate racial abilities," they should have said so in the feat (or the errata).

WotC didn't make something clear? Colour me shocked! :smalltongue:

[InvisibleBison]

Is… is that possible by RAW?!

Only if devices are made entirely out of one material.

[daremetoidareyo]

Look, I know you said no items, but you can found your own weapon of legacy. A 13th level ability grants a wish. And you get lots of free feats to open up the abilities with legacy champion. And if you choose a legacy item ability that makes it an intelligent item, you can use hellbreakers level 8 ability to steal the wishgranting. You don't have to buy a thing, and weapons of legacy allows you to found an item and use its tables to create it.

Theoretically you could have wishgranting ability by level 13 or 14.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20453140&postcount=177

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Only if devices are made entirely out of one material.This is ridiculously limiting for the spell. It means you can't make much of anything, as very few things are made out of just one, singular material.

Either way, there's nothing saying a device can't be made out of one material. Or that you can't cast fabricate a couple of times.

All it's doing is making the spell pretty much useless without expending tons of spell slots.

[InvisibleBison]

This is ridiculously limiting for the spell. It means you can't make much of anything, as very few things are made out of just one, singular material.

Yes, fabricate is extremely limited in what you can create. I'm not sure what your point is.


Either way, there's nothing saying a device can't be made out of one material.

So I managed to find the text of the Create Device feat, and it says that the design of the device is up to the player, so making one out of a single material is possible. However, it also says that devices require a power source, all of which are explicitly said to be made of multiple materials, and thus not able to be produced by fabricate.

[Crake]

Supernatural Transformation (Psionics).

Supernatural transformation only works on innate SLAs, so unless your psionics is a racial ability, then it is not an innate one, it's a learned one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Supernatural transformation only works on innate SLAs, so unless your psionics is a racial ability, then it is not an innate one, it's a learned one.Psionics is specifically defined in the XPH as being innate (and psi-like, although that's easily taken care of via the Magic Mantle), no matter the source.

[Quertus]

How much does it cost to obtain Wish with sculpt self? If you have to homebrew on top of being a dragon magazine thing... then yeah....

AFB, but… Wish 1/day, as an item, would run, I think… (9*17*2k)+(50*25k), with a "/5" in there somewhere. So, Wish 5/day, as an item, costs a mere 1,250,000+306,000=1,556,000 GP. Double that to 3,112,000 GP. Then divide by 5, for paying with XP, gives you a mere 626,000 XP, to be able to cast Wish 5/day, without paying XP. If your GM is feeling generous, then, for 1/5 of that, or 105,200 XP, you can have the ability to cast Wish 1/day.

A single casting of Wish would cost you over twice the XP of just, you know, casting Wish. Like I said, is rarely the *breast* answer.


eh.. yes, I think so, but it's kind of a cheat, or.. I should say a huge stylistic/in-world fluff conflict? 'Devices' are supposed to be Mad Science. Instead of casting Raise Dead, you build a Frankenstein-style rig to re-energize somebody's Vital Essence by CAPTURING THE RAW POWER OF LIGHTNING *insert dramatic thunder, maniacal laughter here* They really shouldn't exist unless you're in a setting where that kind of thing is appropriate. Like, say, Ravenloft, the D&D setting for Gothic Horror and a place where trying to entreat the gods to return your friend to life has 'You get nothing but mocking laughter' rated among the good outcomes...

Which is to say yes, if you treat the rules as nothing but interchangeable mechanical widgets you can probably Fabricate a 'non-magical' Device for any arbitrary magical effect, but it's an enormously out-of-place idea in your typical D&D world. They belong to places where the 'mad wizard' archetype is an eccentric inventor working in a lab in the gloomy basement of their disheveled family manor, not ones where the mad wizard is a literal mad wizard.


Only if devices are made entirely out of one material.


Yes, fabricate is extremely limited in what you can create. I'm not sure what your point is.



So I managed to find the text of the Create Device feat, and it says that the design of the device is up to the player, so making one out of a single material is possible. However, it also says that devices require a power source, all of which are explicitly said to be made of multiple materials, and thus not able to be produced by fabricate.

So, technically possible by RAW silliness. OK… how much do these power sources cost / how can we create them ?

[InvisibleBison]

So, technically possible by RAW silliness. OK… how much do these power sources cost / how can we create them ?

Power sources are devices, made using the Create Device feat, but they also have prices, which implies they can be bought. The best is probably the hand generator, which costs 10,000 gp. So long as you've got someone to turn the crank every round, it will power the attached device indefinitely.

[Troacctid]

AFB, but… Wish 1/day, as an item, would run, I think… (9*17*2k)+(50*25k), with a "/5" in there somewhere. So, Wish 5/day, as an item, costs a mere 1,250,000+306,000=1,556,000 GP. Double that to 3,112,000 GP. Then divide by 5, for paying with XP, gives you a mere 626,000 XP, to be able to cast Wish 5/day, without paying XP. If your GM is feeling generous, then, for 1/5 of that, or 105,200 XP, you can have the ability to cast Wish 1/day.

A single casting of Wish would cost you over twice the XP of just, you know, casting Wish. Like I said, is rarely the *breast* answer.
It's the only answer that lets you actually enchant your breast, though. I think that makes it the breast answer by default.

[Quertus]

Power sources are devices, made using the Create Device feat, but they also have prices, which implies they can be bought. The best is probably the hand generator, which costs 10,000 gp. So long as you've got someone to turn the crank every round, it will power the attached device indefinitely.

So, 10k GP, plus someone else's action, for (effectively) a dynamic runestaff, with potential free upcasting, and definite free reuse of the spell? Yes, please!

Now I just need a build so bad, that this level of cheese is appropriate… :smallbiggrin:


It's the only answer that lets you actually enchant your breast, though. I think that makes it the breast answer by default.

Doh! Darn autocorrect. :smallredface:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I prefer the bioelectric energy one. Contact points that provide free energy are nice.

Thing is, even a Permanent duration still only requires one charge, which is quite cost effective.

[magicalmagicman]

Ok. I think I understand sculpt self now. It's warforged components for non warforged. Custom Magic Item costs, double costs for being slotless. If you're gonna do that might as well stack custom magic item cost reducers like limited to a class (yours) and alignment (yours) and others if there are any.

[Troacctid]

Ok. I think I understand sculpt self now. It's warforged components for non warforged. Custom Magic Item costs, double costs for being slotless. If you're gonna do that might as well stack custom magic item cost reducers like limited to a class (yours) and alignment (yours) and others if there are any.
You can't do that, because it doesn't create magic items.

[Thurbane]

Psionics is specifically defined in the XPH as being innate (and psi-like, although that's easily taken care of via the Magic Mantle), no matter the source.

Is that based on fluff text? I'm not necessarily I'm saying I disagree, since the text in the feat itself could be considered fluff ("innate" is not a defined game term), but I'm curious.


A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks that nonpsionic characters can accomplish -if they’re even capable of doing them at all -only by using gross physical skills such as brute strength or raw agility, or by using intellect or force of will distinct from the natural power of the mind itself.


A psion’s powers are innate but not effortlessly attained.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is that based on fluff text? I'm not necessarily I'm saying I disagree, since the text in the feat itself could be considered fluff ("innate" is not a defined game term), but I'm curious.As you said, "innate" isn't a defined term. The feat, however, requires the to-be supernatural ability to be "innate," and psionics are described multiple times as such.

Honestly, it's more evidence than racial abilities have for being "innate," since they're not described as such anywhere, to my knowledge.

[Troacctid]

As you said, "innate" isn't a defined term. The feat, however, requires the to-be supernatural ability to be "innate," and psionics are described multiple times as such.

Honestly, it's more evidence than racial abilities have for being "innate," since they're not described as such anywhere, to my knowledge.
Innate magic is discussed on page 7 of Complete Mage. It is described as including racial spell-like abilities as well as warlock invocations. Theoretically, that should include any psionic spell-like abilities as well for the purpose of the feat.

However, psi-like abilities are not spell-like abilities (although the reverse is sometimes true), so you generally can't use them with Supernatural Transformation or other effects that only work on spell-like abilities, except as described on page 184 of XPH, or with special DM permission.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Innate magic is discussed on page 7 of Complete Mage. It is described as including racial spell-like abilities as well as warlock invocations. Theoretically, that should include any psionic spell-like abilities as well for the purpose of the feat.

However, psi-like abilities are not spell-like abilities (although the reverse is sometimes true), so you generally can't use them with Supernatural Transformation or other effects that only work on spell-like abilities, except as described on page 184 of XPH, or with special DM permission.Hello, Magic Mantle (as I've said numerous, numerous times).

[magicalmagicman]

Look, I know you said no items, but you can found your own weapon of legacy. A 13th level ability grants a wish. And you get lots of free feats to open up the abilities with legacy champion. And if you choose a legacy item ability that makes it an intelligent item, you can use hellbreakers level 8 ability to steal the wishgranting. You don't have to buy a thing, and weapons of legacy allows you to found an item and use its tables to create it.

Theoretically you could have wishgranting ability by level 13 or 14.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20453140&postcount=177

Looked into it.

As far as I can tell the DM chooses legacy items not the player
And you only get 1 wish. Ever. Which means wish loops. Which means not what I'm looking for. Sorry.

[newguydude1]

overchannel metamorphosis into phasm at level 13
metamorphic transfer alternate form into zodar
metamorphic transfer zodar's wish

i know you said no monsters and i think zodar's 1/year applies to metamorphic transfer too. but seeing how this is the earliest wish you can obtain without items i thought id mention it.