How do Change Shape and Enlarge Person / Expansion interact?

[Illogictree]

I have ended up playing a pretty strange and complicated character build in an online game. The DM seems to be pretty lenient on things and this is supposed to be a fairly "non-serious" game so I expect I'll be able to get away with whatever, but I wanted to check in what the rules actually said about this.

My character is a kitsune (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune), which has a racial Change Shape ability that functions like alter self (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self), and also has the Fox Shape (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fox-shape) feat, which is noted as functioning like beast shape II (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape). I also have access to enlarge person (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person/) as an alchemist extract and will later be able to use an effect that acts like the expansion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expansion/) psionic power.

My question is, of course, can I maintain my Change Shape ability while under the effects of enlarge person / expansion, or do I, by the rules, need to revert to my natural form to benefit from them? And does the same thing go for using Fox Shape?

[Gruftzwerg]

I have ended up playing a pretty strange and complicated character build in an online game. The DM seems to be pretty lenient on things and this is supposed to be a fairly "non-serious" game so I expect I'll be able to get away with whatever, but I wanted to check in what the rules actually said about this.

My character is a kitsune (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/uncommon-races/arg-kitsune), which has a racial Change Shape ability that functions like alter self (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/alter-self), and also has the Fox Shape (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/fox-shape) feat, which is noted as functioning like beast shape II (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/beast-shape). I also have access to enlarge person (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person/) as an alchemist extract and will later be able to use an effect that acts like the expansion (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/expansion/) psionic power.

My question is, of course, can I maintain my Change Shape ability while under the effects of enlarge person / expansion, or do I, by the rules, need to revert to my natural form to benefit from them? And does the same thing go for using Fox Shape?

Enlarge Person requires a humanoid target "to cast". After that you are free to change to a any non-humanoid type. The effect (size increase) still affects you whether or not your current form is still humanoid.

[Psyren]

Enlarge Person requires a humanoid target "to cast". After that you are free to change to a any non-humanoid type. The effect (size increase) still affects you whether or not your current form is still humanoid.

While this might be true, stacking these doesn't work for another reason. Both Beast Shape and Alter Self are polymorph subschool spells; this subschool states:


Polymorph
...
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Therefore, regardless of the order you cast them in, the polymorph effects will override Enlarge Person's size-changing effect and render it irrelevant.

[exelsisxax]

It should also be noted that even if one or neither was a polymorph effect, it still wouldn't work anyway. Size increases do not stack, you take only the largest.

[Kris Moonhand]

Also, even though it doesn't work for the reasons stated above, I feel compelled to point out that it doesn't matter if Enlarge Person requires a humanoid target, since beast shape and other polymorph spells don't change your type. Even if you're in the form of an animal, you're still a humanoid.

[Gruftzwerg]

While this might be true, stacking these doesn't work for another reason. Both Beast Shape and Alter Self are polymorph subschool spells; this subschool states:



Therefore, regardless of the order you cast them in, the polymorph effects will override Enlarge Person's size-changing effect and render it irrelevant.

Oh, I forgot that PF handles those spells other than 3.5 my bad...




It should also be noted that even if one or neither was a polymorph effect, it still wouldn't work anyway. Size increases do not stack, you take only the largest.

where does he stack size increasing effects. Changing into something that is by default bigger is not a size change effect as far as I know.


Also, even though it doesn't work for the reasons stated above, I feel compelled to point out that it doesn't matter if Enlarge Person requires a humanoid target, since beast shape and other polymorph spells don't change your type. Even if you're in the form of an animal, you're still a humanoid.

Doesn't work out. Since the target has to be "a humanoid creature" and not " a humanoid type creature. It refers to the shape since the type is not part of the requirement. Not in the stat block nor in the rule text.

[Kris Moonhand]

where does he stack size increasing effects. Changing into something that is by default bigger is not a size change effect as far as I know.
Changing your size doesn't stack in PF. You can't use one spell to shrink two sizes and then another to grow one size for a net change of one size smaller. Nor can you turn into a Large troll with giant form and then further increase your size with righteous might even though only one of them is a polymorph spell.

Doesn't work out. Since the target has to be "a humanoid creature" and not " a humanoid type creature. It refers to the shape since the type is not part of the requirement. Not in the stat block nor in the rule text.
If that was true, then it and other "Person" spells would work on native outsiders. Spoilers, they do not. It's the type, not the shape. Always and forever in PF, the word "humanoid" in a mechanical element refers to type. Same as spells with undead, animal, vermin, construct, outsider, etc etc etc, targets.

[Gruftzwerg]

Changing your size doesn't stack in PF. You can't use one spell to shrink two sizes and then another to grow one size for a net change of one size smaller. Nor can you turn into a Large troll with giant form and then further increase your size with righteous might even though only one of them is a polymorph spell.

Same as 3.5, no difference here. But unless pf has a rule that treats shape changes also as size changing effects, they are not (correct me if I'm wrong here, pls). Enlarge Person targets the size, while shape change targets your shape/form (which may change your actual size but still doesn't count as "size changing effect", it's a "shape/form changing effect".


If that was true, then it and other "Person" spells would work on native outsiders. Spoilers, they do not. It's the type, not the shape. Always and forever in PF, the word "humanoid" in a mechanical element refers to type. Same as spells with undead, animal, vermin, construct, outsider, etc etc etc, targets.

While this may be the intention of the designers, that restriction is not given by the rule text. Other spells/rules point out when type is important (see Disguise Self, which requires in PF that you stay within your type, so you may not look like a vampire or an outsider compared to the 3.5 version ruling).
Both 3.5 and PF failed to choose the right language to restrict you to type explicitly.
RAW != RAI here due to bad editing and missing errata. We have iirc (wotc) support answers that undermine your position, but that doesn't change what RAW is dictating if you would follow it strictly, since we have no rule text altering errata for it.

[Psyren]

Same as 3.5, no difference here. But unless pf has a rule that treats shape changes also as size changing effects, they are not (correct me if I'm wrong here, pls). Enlarge Person targets the size, while shape change targets your shape/form (which may change your actual size but still doesn't count as "size changing effect", it's a "shape/form changing effect".

The bonuses gained from both are typed as "size bonuses" - so even if the line about polymorph effects blocking size changing magic wasn't there, you still would only get the larger bonus from one of those spells (i.e. they wouldn't stack.) The actual change to your size category would be trickier to figure out, but again, PF renders this moot so we don't have to.

[Illogictree]

Thanks for your answers, guys.

So what I'm getting is, by RAW, my kitsune must be in their undisguised natural form to benefit from enlarge person... which just feels a bit wrong. :smalltongue:

I was already aware that expansion wouldn't stack with enlarge person, that much is clear from the rules text.

One other thing, since I'm asking about this character build. If my character gains natural claw attacks from the Feral Mutagen (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/feral-mutagen/) discovery, do the extra arms from the Aegis' extra arms (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/astral-suits/#Extra_Arms) or extra arms, greater (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/astral-suits/#Extra_Arms_Greater) customizations or the Vestigial Arms (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) discovery gain claws as well, or does the "gains two claw attacks and a bite attack" language of the Feral Mutagen preclude that?

[upho]

So what I'm getting is, by RAW, my kitsune must be in their undisguised natural form to benefit from enlarge person... which just feels a bit wrong. :smalltongue:FWIW, I believe the rules are actually pretty consistent in this case, keeping to both the general principle that a creature's entire physical form can't be simultaneously altered by multiple magic effects and to the specifics of the kitsune's change shape racial trait:

"A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability."

And since a human is Medium size, even if your kitsune would normally be Large in their natural form due to a permanent enlarge person, the effects of the enlarge person spell would be suspended while they're changed into their human form using change shape. The same would arguably be true even if your kitsune actually became permanently larger by an instantaneous magic effect (like drawing "The Mountain Man" from a Harrow Deck of Many Things (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/artifacts/minor-artifacts/deck-of-many-things-harrow/)) or a non-magic effect (such as acquiring the giant simple template (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-giant-cr-1/)) which is fully compatible with both polymorph and size-altering magic effects in general. In this case, they would however still retain any ability score alterations caused by the effect when using change shape.

On the other hand, it's also worth noting that the relevant sentence in the polymorph general rules says (my emphasis):

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

RAW, the emphasized parts mean that any form/size altering effects which are not caused by spells (including SLAs, psionic powers and PLAs) specifically - or things which explicitly use the rules of spells - can still affect a creature also affected by other form/size altering effects, including those of a size-altering or polymorph spell. Perhaps most notably, this in turn means that unlike the kitsune's change shape or the monster (SQ) of the same name (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Change-Shape-Su-), the skinwalker's (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp/#Standard_Racial_Traits) change shape ability does work with all other form/size altering effects (thankfully, since the race would be severely hampered otherwise).


One other thing, since I'm asking about this character build. If my character gains natural claw attacks from the Feral Mutagen (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/feral-mutagen/) discovery, do the extra arms from the Aegis' extra arms (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/astral-suits/#Extra_Arms) or extra arms, greater (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/classes/aegis/astral-suits/#Extra_Arms_Greater) customizations or the Vestigial Arms (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo-alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) discovery gain claws as well, or does the "gains two claw attacks and a bite attack" language of the Feral Mutagen preclude that?Feral Mutagen grants two claw attacks, even should you have a gazillion arms/hands, and regardless of whether flavor text (or you) describe all these limbs as having claws per default. If you have more than two arms, you can however choose which specific pair of arms/hands you use to make those two granted claws in a full attack, and RAW nothing requires you to use the same pair of arms/hands for every attack.

(Also, keep in mind that should you gain two additional claw attacks from another source, only the greater extra arms customization would allow you to make more than two claw attacks in a full attack. Even if you also have say a pair of vestigial arms, you can still not make more than a maximum total of four claw attacks, since you only have two additional limbs which can increase the max number of attacks possible. Likewise, you can only make your claw attacks with those of your arms/hands which haven't already been used in the same full attack to make another attack (such as another claw attack, a slam attack, or an attack with a manufactured weapon wielded in the hand).

AFAIK, the only exceptions to this are the natural attacks granted by the metamorphosis (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Metamorphosis) line of powers or allowed by the two Frenzy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/Primal-Fury-maneuvers/#TOC-Frenzy-Strike) strikes of Primal Fury, since those are the only ones which can be made even if you've already used all the corresponding body parts you normally have to make other attacks (or even if you normally don't have any such body parts.)

[Psyren]

On the other hand, it's also worth noting that the relevant sentence in the polymorph general rules says (my emphasis):

"In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell."

RAW, the emphasized parts mean that any form/size altering effects which are not caused by spells (including SLAs, psionic powers and PLAs) specifically - or things which explicitly use the rules of spells - can still affect a creature also affected by other form/size altering effects, including those of a size-altering or polymorph spell. Perhaps most notably, this in turn means that unlike the kitsune's change shape or the monster (SQ) of the same name (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Change-Shape-Su-), the skinwalker's (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-rp/skinwalkers-10-rp/#Standard_Racial_Traits) change shape ability does work with all other form/size altering effects (thankfully, since the race would be severely hampered otherwise).

My reading of a Skinwalker's Change Shape is that it's a special case; Change Shape has to specify which polymorph effect it's mimicking, but the Skinwalker's version doesn't have such a reference. I take it to mean that it doesn't actually count as a polymorph effect, letting them keep their skinwalker ability score mod while wild shaped or size changed.

But regardless, the whole "this school limitation only applies to spells" logic is a bit specious, and has all kinds of unintended consequences. If something that's not a spell says that it works like a spell, it has to mean the whole thing, school and all. If it didn't, you'd have to apply that kind of logic everywhere. For example, the conjuration rules say that conjuration spells can't conjure objects inside of creatures, so you could argue that anything that isn't a spell doesn't have that restriction, and they can conjure stuff inside of people's lungs, as one example.

[upho]

My reading of a Skinwalker's Change Shape is that it's a special case; Change Shape has to specify which polymorph effect it's mimicking, but the Skinwalker's version doesn't have such a reference. I take it to mean that it doesn't actually count as a polymorph effect, letting them keep their skinwalker ability score mod while wild shaped or size changed.Yes, this.

My only rather meaningless nitpick here is that it would have to specify which polymorph spell (or power) it's mimicking for the "can't be simultaneously affected by multiple polymorph or size-altering spells"-rule to apply. So strictly RAW, if there existed something which is not a spell/power, nor explicitly mimicking a spell/power, but which is nevertheless noted as a polymorph effect, that rule wouldn't apply.

(But if such a thing existed, it would IMO certainly be a reason to question whether the use of the game term "spell" in the general polymorph rules or the [polymorph] tag for the thing in question were a mistake, and people would likely be wondering why on earth such a non-spell is called out as a polymorph effect as that has absolutely zero impact.)


But regardless, the whole "this school limitation only applies to spells" logic is a bit specious, and has all kinds of unintended consequences. If something that's not a spell says that it works like a spell, it has to mean the whole thing, school and all. If it didn't, you'd have to apply that kind of logic everywhere. For example, the conjuration rules say that conjuration spells can't conjure objects inside of creatures, so you could argue that anything that isn't a spell doesn't have that restriction, and they can conjure stuff inside of people's lungs, as one example.This is precisely what I was trying to say. To clarify, basically:

"Spell" = actual spell, SLA, psionic power, PLA or anything which says it's mimicking an actual spell or psionic power.

The skinwalker's change shape is neither of these. The same is true for example in the case of the size increase granted by the vigilante Brute's brute form (Ex) ability.

...

On a related note, while I find the polymorph rules in general to be pretty clear and have consistent and reasonable effects, the related rules for adjusting the ability scores of creatures smaller than Small or larger than Medium bugs me. Specifically, it assumes that there's some kind of universal size-dependent adjustments to ability scores which applies to all creatures, ignoring the fact that not even the related monster design rules/guidlines and the "Size Quality" of the race creation system agrees on those adjustments, nor with those in the polymorph rules. Most notably in the case of PCs with a Large base size - who very rarely gain +4 Str, +2 Con and -2 Dex (or greater adjustments) due to their race and never do so due to their size specifically in a very large majority of games - the net effect of this becomes outright stupid. This is especially true when also considering the fact that only a small minority of the polymorph spells/equivalents granting a Large or larger size also give a bonus to Con, and far from all of them give a bonus to Str or a penalty to Dex.

And related to sizes and changes thereof, the mentioned giant simple template is even more stupid as written, granting size bonuses to ability scores despite the fact that it changes the base size of the creature. Which means that RAW, for example a humanoid with this template affected by enlarge person won't gain the spell's +2 Str and -2 Dex size bonus/penalty as it would without the template. :smallannoyed:

/rant

[Psyren]

Yes, this.

My only rather meaningless nitpick here is that it would have to specify which polymorph spell (or power) it's mimicking for the "can't be simultaneously affected by multiple polymorph or size-altering spells"-rule to apply. So strictly RAW, if there existed something which is not a spell/power, nor explicitly mimicking a spell/power, but which is nevertheless noted as a polymorph effect, that rule wouldn't apply.

(But if such a thing existed, it would IMO certainly be a reason to question whether the use of the game term "spell" in the general polymorph rules or the [polymorph] tag for the thing in question were a mistake, and people would likely be wondering why on earth such a non-spell is called out as a polymorph effect as that has absolutely zero impact.)

Agreed, we're on the same page here.


This is precisely what I was trying to say. To clarify, basically:

"Spell" = actual spell, SLA, psionic power, PLA or anything which says it's mimicking an actual spell or psionic power.

The skinwalker's change shape is neither of these. The same is true for example in the case of the size increase granted by the vigilante Brute's brute form (Ex) ability.

My bad then - I thought you were highlighting "spell" to say that things that aren't spells or SLAs get to ignore this rule. So we agree here too.




On a related note, while I find the polymorph rules in general to be pretty clear and have consistent and reasonable effects, the related rules for adjusting the ability scores of creatures smaller than Small or larger than Medium bugs me. Specifically, it assumes that there's some kind of universal size-dependent adjustments to ability scores which applies to all creatures, ignoring the fact that not even the related monster design rules/guidlines and the "Size Quality" of the race creation system agrees on those adjustments, nor with those in the polymorph rules. Most notably in the case of PCs with a Large base size - who very rarely gain +4 Str, +2 Con and -2 Dex (or greater adjustments) due to their race and never do so due to their size specifically in a very large majority of games - the net effect of this becomes outright stupid. This is especially true when also considering the fact that only a small minority of the polymorph spells/equivalents granting a Large or larger size also give a bonus to Con, and far from all of them give a bonus to Str or a penalty to Dex.

Eh, I actually like those rules. Having a uniform starting point (Small/Medium) for creatures of more extreme sizes to use when shapeshifting is a big deal. When my Great Wyrm Dragon has a human form, a giant form, and a faerie dragon form, being able to just say "this works like Alter Self/Giant Form 1/Form of the Dragon 1" without having to calculate a bunch of other size modifiers for his statblock saves a lot of space and time.



And related to sizes and changes thereof, the mentioned giant simple template is even more stupid as written, granting size bonuses to ability scores despite the fact that it changes the base size of the creature. Which means that RAW, for example a humanoid with this template affected by enlarge person won't gain the spell's +2 Str and -2 Dex size bonus/penalty as it would without the template. :smallannoyed:

/rant

I don't know that you should be allowed to Enlarge Person on a Giant X anyway.

[upho]

Eh, I actually like those rules. Having a uniform starting point (Small/Medium) for creatures of more extreme sizes to use when shapeshifting is a big deal. When my Great Wyrm Dragon has a human form, a giant form, and a faerie dragon form, being able to just say "this works like Alter Self/Giant Form 1/Form of the Dragon 1" without having to calculate a bunch of other size modifiers for his statblock saves a lot of space and time.The current adjustments would basically only need to say they don't apply to creatures which don't gain as great racial bonuses/penalties.


I don't know that you should be allowed to Enlarge Person on a Giant X anyway.Why not?

There's absolutely nothing magic about the giant template itself, nor anything else which to justifies the ability score adjustments being of the size type. The only possible type they could have would be racial, and then only if including an explicit exception saying they stack with any other racial bonuses/penalties. IOW, if say a stone giant can be affected by enlarge person (which they certainly can), so should a giant bugbear, as the size of the natural forms of both these humanoids is Large. The same would btw be true for a human who drew "The Mountain Man" from a harrowing deck of many things. It's the exact same logic which has the Powerful Build effects stack with those of any "virtual" and actual size increases.

[Kris Moonhand]

You wouldn't even need any exception text, since racial bonuses stack by default.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Emphasis mine.

I definitely agree that casting Enlarge Person on someone with the Giant template should make them stronger as well as bigger, since the nature of the template implies that they're just naturally big.

[Psyren]

I suppose it's less the spell and more the template itself. Even if it's technically legal, a Giant Human or a Giant Elf doesn't make a lot of sense to me. That template seems more geared at animals or monsters, in which case Enlarge Person wouldn't apply.

[Illogictree]

All right, thanks for all the responses, this has clarified a few things.