PDA

View Full Version : D20 Based Game - Modern Firearms



blackjack50
2020-04-21, 05:06 PM
I am looking to set up a game similar to 5e for simplicity. I’d like to have a rule set based around D20. I found one guide, but I have no play experience. The big key with this is that I would like for this to be as simple as possible. I will be running a one shot off of this. Can anyone point me in some directions that allow for easy pick up and play mechanics like 5e? It doesn’t need to be hyper realistic or anything. Just fairly simple to use.

LordCdrMilitant
2020-04-21, 05:48 PM
There's existing rules in pathfinder for firearms. https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/firearms/ They also have modern firearms.

I think they kind of do unreasonably low damage and have extremely unreasonably low range, I did my own when I ran a D&D campaign that had guns in it

There's also D20 Modern as a separate system.

In general, there are a couple of approaches I have seen for homebrewing firearms rules:

Bows Are Now Guns: Replace any text referring to bows or crossbows with reference to rifles, pistols, and shotguns. Hand Crossbow -> Pistol, Longbow -> Semiauto Rifle, Heavy Crossbow -> Bolt Action Rifle, etc.
Advantages: Preserves existing D&D balance between range, melee, and magic.
Disadvantages: Preserves existing D&D balance, most of your party will still be magic or melee, with only the one ranger/rogue using a gun. Also, it won't feel special or different, just differently flavored.

Firearms Are "Slightly Better" Bows: Rifles do 1d10 damage, Pistols do 1d8, Shotguns do 1d12, all have Loading or even-more-punishing-loading, have crud range, and are Martial Ranged Weapons.
Advantages: Bows still exist for the one guy who persists in forcing this to be a medieval fantasy. Said bow user still feels useful and will shut up about how much he hates steampunk or modern games. Continues to preserve existing D&D balance between range, melee, and magic.
Disadvantages: Preserves existing balance and that-guy-who-only-wants-to-play-medieval-fantasy is happy only because nobody is going to use your guns. This approximate profile, like the Pathfinder guns, is actually aggressively terrible and worse than a longbow for almost anyone who can use it. Also, I hoped you remembered to write firearms feats, firearms fighting styles, and firearms proficiency where it's appropriate.

Firearms Are Awesome: Guns do a lot more damage than swords or bows. Basically something like what I used, but potentially and often even more powerful.
Advantages: Guns are good, players will use them and like them.
Disadvantages: Melee combatants feel obsolete, and the caster will start complaining about no longer being the most powerful party member after the fighter unloads on something or the Rogue scores a critical with a sniper rifle rated for 6d12 damage [That latter one was me in one game. Bang! Headshot!]


I used something between the Crappy Bows and Awesome scheme for what I did, though it was too much on the side of Crappy Bows. Putting even-more-punishing-loading on everything made only those that could be rapid-fired valid choices for martial characters, and being martial weapons meant that only dedicated martial characters who invariably could make multiple attacks were able to use them and there aren't enough feats to go around to make someone who wouldn't start with proficiency take a feat for sake of a sidearm. I did end up giving them enough damage such that a ranged martial wanted to have a gun, but most of the prepared list ended up being undesirable: only 2 options were viable and the historically uncommon pepperbox/revolver rifle ended up just being the only weapon anybody would accept because I had made ammunition for the only other viable gun [the historically much more common lever repeating rifle] too expensive.

Musket: 2d12 piercing, range 300/1000ft, [i]Muzzle-Loaded: Reload 1 round as a Full Round, 2-Handed [Ammunition: .78 ball and powder]
Rifle: 2d10 piercing, range 1000/3000ft, Muzzle-Loaded: Reload 1 round as a Full Round, 2-Handed [Ammunition: .58 minie ball and powder]
Pepperbox/Revolver Rifle: 2d10 piercing, range 1000/3000ft, Magazine 6: Fire 6 Shots before reloading, Muzzle-Loaded: Reload 1 round as a Full Round, 2-Handed [Ammunition: .58 minie ball and powder]
Breech-Loaded Rifle: 2d10 piercing, range 1500/3000ft, Cartridge: Reload 1 round as a Bonus Action, 2-Handed [Ammunition: .52 Cartridge]
Repeating Rifle: 2d10 piercing, range 1500/3000ft, Magazine 16: Fire 16 Shots before reloading, Cartridge: Reload 1 round as a Bonus Action, 2-Handed [Ammunition: .52 Cartridge]
Muzzle-loaded Shotgun: 2d6 piercing, range 150/150ft, Muzzle-Loaded: Reload 1 round as a Full Round, Scatter 2d12: Increase Damage to 2d12 at under Half Range, 2-Handed [Ammunition: buckshot and powder]
Breech-Loaded Shotgun: 2d6 piercing, range 150/150ft, Magazine 2: Fire 2 Shots before reloading, Cartridge: Reload 1 round as a Bonus Action, Scatter 2d12: Increase Damage to 2d12 at under Half Range, 2-Handed [Ammunition: 12 Ga Cased Shell]
Pistol: 2d8 piercing, range 150/500ft Muzzle-Loaded: Reload 1 round as a Full Round, 1-Handed [Ammunition: .45 ball and powder]
Revolver: 2d8 piercing, range 500/1500ft, Cartridge: Reload 1 round as a Bonus Action, Magazine 6: Fire 6 Shots before reloading, 1-Handed [Ammunition: .45 Cartridge]

It worked for my game, and achieved the effect that I wanted better than most other firearms systems I've played in games with.


I've also played a D&D Destiny themed one-shot, which had gun rules of it's own, and I was not impressed with them. [Disclaimer: I have never played Destiny, so perhaps it is a very faithful representation of the game and I'm just being critical because I had the wrong expectations.] In this case, without Sharpshooter and with anything that did more than 1d6 or having a range greater than walking distance having Loading, actually doing appreciable damage just wasn't a thing. In addition, GWM had been deleted as had spellcasting, so combat dragged on way past the point it was welcome and nothing ever seemed to die.



Among the major insights I have for firearms rules homebrewing:
1: Loading is bad. Basically all Martial classes except Rogue depend on having multiple attacks for any semblance of damage scaling, and Rogues are drastically outdamaged turn-to-turn as is. If you give guns loading or a variant of loading, you effectively remove their ability to scale in power with level, so players won't want them [or will only want non-loading versions] as they level up. This is really bad: damage scaling is already IMO a problem in D&D, where HP goes up basically every level but damage per turn only goes up every 5, and when damage does go up it really only goes up by about 2-3 levels worth of HP [counting sharpshooter/GWM. If you don't have Sharpshooter, then health goes up 5 times faster than damage. No wonder combat is so painful in 5e].
2: Martial Weapon [or worse Exotic Weapon] is also bad, if you want them used. Nobody wants to spend a feat for a weapon proficiency, since at the very least, it means delaying Sharpshooter which does have damage scaling and is usually much better than whatever weapon you're using.
3: Make sure you support them. You have to have feats, baked in proficiencies, and fighting styles for guns if you're going to include them. If it can't Sharpshooter, it needs to be worth at least 3 Longbow shots.
4: Ammunition. Arrows and Bolts are re-usable. Gunpowder isn't. If ammo is too expensive, or too uncommon to come by, then players won't be able to use their guns.

KineticDiplomat
2020-04-21, 09:10 PM
Before I toss out any recommendations, are you looking for a more “Joe in the rifle squad at war” game, a classic adventuring party in a failed/failing state style game, a Rainbow 6 style game, a game where you run through hails of bullets blasting each others HP down, a game where not getting shot is the real key, something else?

I ask because there are some pretty simple war games out there where you could run a D20, but they are mostly keyed to when a model is hit, they have a pretty decent chance to go down.

Anonymouswizard
2020-04-22, 06:06 AM
I am looking to set up a game similar to 5e for simplicity. I’d like to have a rule set based around D20. I found one guide, but I have no play experience. The big key with this is that I would like for this to be as simple as possible. I will be running a one shot off of this. Can anyone point me in some directions that allow for easy pick up and play mechanics like 5e? It doesn’t need to be hyper realistic or anything. Just fairly simple to use.

I believe 5e includes some modern firearms rules in the DMG, like 3.5 did. There's also d20 modern and a couple of other games if you want to have something d20 based based around access to guns.

Really, what you need for guns is to raise that those without automatic fire only need a few things: damage, a note on whether they can make more than one shot a round, and a quality that requires them to reload Street a certain number of shots, and the vast majority of modern weapons can fire multiple times a round. Autofire becomes more challenging, at it's core you've got burst fire (easy, use multiple shots in one attack for more damage), sustained bursts (difficult, possibly something like making multiple attacks worth Disadvantage in exchange for 10+ shots), and suppressive fire (use up a lot of bullets, make enemy keep their head down).

There's a lot more that you could add, but that's pretty much the minimum to represent modern firearms.

blackjack50
2020-04-22, 07:31 AM
Before I toss out any recommendations, are you looking for a more “Joe in the rifle squad at war” game, a classic adventuring party in a failed/failing state style game, a Rainbow 6 style game, a game where you run through hails of bullets blasting each others HP down, a game where not getting shot is the real key, something else?

I ask because there are some pretty simple war games out there where you could run a D20, but they are mostly keyed to when a model is hit, they have a pretty decent chance to go down.

I honestly had not considered that. It will be set in Nazi occupied France. The combat will need to be risky. Basically, the players will need to plan an attack and avoid conflict if they are outgunned.

Anonymouswizard
2020-04-22, 07:41 AM
The combat will need to be risky.

Have you considered: not D&D? I'm sure there's a game out there with firearms rules and risky combat, maybe even one not as complex as GURPS.

Honestly, I'd recommend you look into something like Chronicles of Darkness here. There is a death spiral, but you get a decent amount of grace, weapons and willpower expenditure can make combat incredibly dangerous (weapons now all deal Lethal damage, for starters) but the addition of your Athletics to defence makes characters a little less squishy, and modern firearms are an assumed part of the game. Yes it's d10 dice pools rather than a d20 based system, but the mechanics aren't hard to learn (especially if you run a Mortals game or a minor templated one*).

* Stuff like Ghouls, Wolf-Blooded, or Fae-touched, who don't get the big powers of the templates but can still use some stuff.

LordCdrMilitant
2020-04-22, 10:02 AM
I honestly had not considered that. It will be set in Nazi occupied France. The combat will need to be risky. Basically, the players will need to plan an attack and avoid conflict if they are outgunned.

Yeah, I second the suggestion: try "not D&D". D&D combat is... not particularly conducive to a fast moving, intense firefight.

Brother Oni
2020-04-22, 10:57 AM
Yeah, I second the suggestion: try "not D&D". D&D combat is... not particularly conducive to a fast moving, intense firefight.

Shadowrun? I'm only familiar with 2nd ED rules, but I remember combat being fast and very lethal.

LordCdrMilitant
2020-04-22, 11:37 AM
Shadowrun? I'm only familiar with 2nd ED rules, but I remember combat being fast and very lethal.

There's a lot of good systems out there.

Call of Cthulhu might work for what he wants, given it's got period guns baked into it, has a decent calibration of lethality in combat [in which people die or become wounded when shot], and there's no real imperative to engage with the lovecraft mythos if you don't want to.

That said, he might find a better system out there for exactly what he wants if he looks around. I haven't really ever looked into having WWII as a setting for an RPG, so I'm not familiar with all of what's out there to use.

blackjack50
2020-04-22, 02:07 PM
Have you considered: not D&D? I'm sure there's a game out there with firearms rules and risky combat, maybe even one not as complex as GURPS.

Honestly, I'd recommend you look into something like Chronicles of Darkness here. There is a death spiral, but you get a decent amount of grace, weapons and willpower expenditure can make combat incredibly dangerous (weapons now all deal Lethal damage, for starters) but the addition of your Athletics to defence makes characters a little less squishy, and modern firearms are an assumed part of the game. Yes it's d10 dice pools rather than a d20 based system, but the mechanics aren't hard to learn (especially if you run a Mortals game or a minor templated one*).

* Stuff like Ghouls, Wolf-Blooded, or Fae-touched, who don't get the big powers of the templates but can still use some stuff.

I am open to any D20 based game system really. I just need simplicity. That is really what I mean by DnD 5e. I mean something that is as simple in comparison to 5e. Ease of creation of combat encounters, as well as ease of rules application.

blackjack50
2020-04-22, 02:26 PM
Yeah, I second the suggestion: try "not D&D". D&D combat is... not particularly conducive to a fast moving, intense firefight.

Well that is my thing. The encounter does not need to be "fast." A normal 5e combat encounter would be absolutely fine. My opening encounter would be players engaging a Waffen SS Section (4-5). Players would need to make appropriate use of their equipment and surprise rounds to engage the section. Any protracted combat would lead to local Wermacht Infantry getting involved (so 9-10 additional enemies). So use of stealth and surprise would be pivotal. As would things like cover, planning, and prep.

I am totally ok with using another system, I just don't know where to look for those. I don't have names or anything. The only thing I need is a D20 system, as that is what all players have. Does that make sense? I am not sure if I am asking the right question and clarifying correctly for what is required? Lol. I am relatively new.

Anonymouswizard
2020-04-22, 03:06 PM
I am open to any D20 based game system really. I just need simplicity. That is really what I mean by DnD 5e. I mean something that is as simple in comparison to 5e. Ease of creation of combat encounters, as well as ease of rules application.

I know you're set on d20, but it would be much, much easier to move to a different core mechanic (because d20 is based on D&D, and D&D past 2e isn't designed to have lethal fights*)

This isn't a dig at d20, one of my favourite systems atm is Starfinder because I think it finally fixes most of the bugs with 3.5, just an acknowledgement of where it's weak. Especially once you get into the editions which include encounter design rules 'risky combat' was very much not what the designers were going for (see all the stories about groups being able to breeze through several Very Deadly or higher encounters without a problem). So you're either stuck with 3.X based stuff and the rules-heavy that comes along with it, you homebrew, or you play a different game.

* 3.X rocket tag to me feels like an unintended consequence.

It feels a lot like what you're asking for is something like Unknown Armies or Chronicles of Darkness bolted onto a D&D chasis, and I dont' want to think about the time that actually happened. At which point I have to ask, how hard is it to learn a different system. If you all have percentile dice or two d10s (and if you don't what's happened? Most dice sets come with 2d10s, one designed for rolling tens digits) then you've got everything you need to play Unknown Armies or Call of Cthulhu.

But if you ask for 'not D&D based on D&D' then you aren't going to find much, if anything.

KineticDiplomat
2020-04-22, 06:08 PM
Could you work with D6s? You can use a pretty simple kriegapiel rip like Sharp Practice to gen up very quick rules where your players aren’t super heroes.

lightningcat
2020-04-22, 11:16 PM
But if you ask for 'not D&D based on D&D' then you aren't going to find much, if anything.

Isn't this the defination of FantasyCraft, and Spycraft has a fairly solid set of guns.

Knaight
2020-04-23, 01:37 AM
Well that is my thing. The encounter does not need to be "fast." A normal 5e combat encounter would be absolutely fine. My opening encounter would be players engaging a Waffen SS Section (4-5). Players would need to make appropriate use of their equipment and surprise rounds to engage the section. Any protracted combat would lead to local Wermacht Infantry getting involved (so 9-10 additional enemies). So use of stealth and surprise would be pivotal. As would things like cover, planning, and prep.

I am totally ok with using another system, I just don't know where to look for those. I don't have names or anything. The only thing I need is a D20 system, as that is what all players have. Does that make sense? I am not sure if I am asking the right question and clarifying correctly for what is required? Lol. I am relatively new.


The thing about 5e is that it's really not that rules light of a game - it get's spun that way in D&D circles, because by D&D standards are in, but it's middling-heavy (keeping in mind that heavy is something you can just keep stacking on and the distribution hockey sticks a bit).

This means you have a ton of options, especially if you're willing to move away from d20. The question here is, what do you mean by "what all players have"? Is it a constraint on system documents? If so, I can steer you towards free games they can all access*. Is it a constraint on dice? In that case, I can steer you to games which they will have the dice for**. If it has to be d20 qua d20 you're a bit out of luck, there's d20 Modern, Spycraft, and a few others but they tend to run substantially heavier than 5e.

*Nemesis would be probably the most solid option here. You'll need a fair few d10s, but the system is free and it's specifically built for action horror. There's interesting tactical decisions, it's fairly lethal, and it just flows smoothly.

**Hollow Earth Expedition is specifically built to use any and all dice you have, provided they have an even number of faces. It also specifically aims at WWII era pulp action, but for pulp can be surprisingly lethal. You'd need to pick up the system, but the dice are out there.

Anonymouswizard
2020-04-23, 07:10 AM
Isn't this the defination of FantasyCraft, and Spycraft has a fairly solid set of guns.

I consider FantasyCraft to be like d20 Modern, a step removed from D&D but arguably not a 'clone' (which is things like Fantasy AGE). On that note I just noticed that d20 Modern and d20 Future come to just over £20 on DriveThruRPG, it's actually a little bit tempting.


The thing about 5e is that it's really not that rules light of a game - it get's spun that way in D&D circles, because by D&D standards are in, but it's middling-heavy (keeping in mind that heavy is something you can just keep stacking on and the distribution hockey sticks a bit).

Yeah (although I'm going to note that there's nothing wrong with rules-heavy), if we measured by pure page count (an astonishingly bad way to do it) D&D 5e comes out at something like 500 pages of rules spread across two books, plus a monster book, while the heaviest games I own are GURPS (about six hundred pages across two books, plus a technology book if you want to run science fiction games), AnimaL Beyond Fantasy (about 300 slightly larger pages in one book), and HERO6e (about 250 pages in one book for the stripped down versions), it's clearly nowhere close to the lightest games on the market.

5e has a couple of good rules-light style changes to D&D, but completely messes it up by adding in pages upon pages of spells and class features. To me it comes off as significantly heavier than Fudge (my guideline for 'rules medium'), closer to D&D 3.5 but with a great bit 'optional' tag on half the rules and grappling removed (which wasn't that complicated).

But yeah, I don't want to get bogged down in this, but when there are entire RPGs designed to fit on a single side of A4 requiring 300 pages for your rules basically rules you out of being rules-light in my book, I'd give yo 50 pages at a stretch.

There are games out there much, much easier to learn than D&D5e. When we recommend moving away from d20 it's generally because it's easier to learn a new system than to torture an old one into a new shape.

Knaight
2020-04-23, 03:56 PM
Yeah (although I'm going to note that there's nothing wrong with rules-heavy), if we measured by pure page count (an astonishingly bad way to do it) D&D 5e comes out at something like 500 pages of rules spread across two books, plus a monster book, while the heaviest games I own are GURPS (about six hundred pages across two books, plus a technology book if you want to run science fiction games), AnimaL Beyond Fantasy (about 300 slightly larger pages in one book), and HERO6e (about 250 pages in one book for the stripped down versions), it's clearly nowhere close to the lightest games on the market.
I've got nothing against heavy either - I'm just saying that if you're looking for light, and by light you mean "D&D 5e or lighter" you've got no shortage of options.

Anonymouswizard
2020-04-23, 06:13 PM
I've got nothing against heavy either - I'm just saying that if you're looking for light, and by light you mean "D&D 5e or lighter" you've got no shortage of options.

Sorry, wasn't trying to claim you were. I was just expressing exasperation at 1) peiople claiming that D&D5e is rules-light and 2) claiming that it's an inherently good thing. It's not that I have an inherent dislike for either end, at various times I've wanted games from various parts of the spectrum, and some of my favourite games are about the same level as D&D5e.

There are many great games that use no more than 2d6 and fill less than four sides of A4, and many terrible games with a lot more pages. But at the same time many bad small games and great large ones. The one I'm currently working on hopefully won't break 10 pages, the current outline is 'four stats, an archetype that gives 1-4 abilities, spend experience to increase stats or buy a new archetype, do D&D style adventuring stuff', partially as an exercise in writing something short and sweet.

blackjack50
2020-04-23, 07:21 PM
Sorry, wasn't trying to claim you were. I was just expressing exasperation at 1) peiople claiming that D&D5e is rules-light and 2) claiming that it's an inherently good thing. It's not that I have an inherent dislike for either end, at various times I've wanted games from various parts of the spectrum, and some of my favourite games are about the same level as D&D5e.

There are many great games that use no more than 2d6 and fill less than four sides of A4, and many terrible games with a lot more pages. But at the same time many bad small games and great large ones. The one I'm currently working on hopefully won't break 10 pages, the current outline is 'four stats, an archetype that gives 1-4 abilities, spend experience to increase stats or buy a new archetype, do D&D style adventuring stuff', partially as an exercise in writing something short and sweet.

I wouldn’t call 5e light on rules. I’d call it rules simple. It is very logical and doesn’t require a lot of crazy steps (you don’t have to keep track of a lot of numbers). Maybe I just feel that way because I’ve played it a few times, but everything is really simple. Just a few main stars to keep track of and a prof bonus. Rulings are different, but the numbers are simple.

Knaight
2020-04-24, 12:39 AM
I wouldn’t call 5e light on rules. I’d call it rules simple. It is very logical and doesn’t require a lot of crazy steps (you don’t have to keep track of a lot of numbers). Maybe I just feel that way because I’ve played it a few times, but everything is really simple. Just a few main stars to keep track of and a prof bonus. Rulings are different, but the numbers are simple.

There's a few things I can infer from this that I'd want to check in terms of specific criteria. Specifically:

1) Fewer numbers is the key factor, over handling time and the like. A handful of stats works better than a long list of skills, even if usage mechanics are simpler on the long list of skills side.

2) Rulings are fine, especially if the ruling side is relatively simple in terms of a short list of numbers to keep track of. This suggests some degree of granularity.

3) Handling time does come in in terms of number of steps - which suggests that derived statistics are probably mostly okay, but that you don't want to deal with frequently shifting bonuses or table lookups (e.g. the nonsense that is Iron Sky's normal distribution fit d1000 table system).

4) Because you're running a one shot I assume rapid character generation is a must. This is probably the biggest constraint, there are a number of pretty simple systems that are geared towards campaign play and thus front load a lot onto character generation. There's also a lot that don't, so again, we've got options for days.

Some tone guidance could be useful - for instance, there is already a game specifically for fighting back in Nazi occupied territory, Grey Ranks. It's probably too nontraditional anyways, but it's also an example of something which could easily run into tone conflicts because even by the standards of the campaign pitch it's unrelentingly bleak.