Need help with Ring of Wizardry

[Max Caysey]

Hi guys...

I'm trying to figure out what exactly is getting doubled by the ring if wizardry. I'm fully aware of what it does, but what happens if your for instance have the number of base spells modified by items or classes?

Lets say you are an Arch Mage, would the reduction in daily number of base-spells be modified too? What I mean is whether Ring of Wizardry just doubles the number of spells given on page 55 in PHB or whether it includes modifies? And if so, how do know which modifiers to include? Like how would the wording of an item, feat or class feature have to be to also be included, and thus modified by Ring of Wizardry?

Cheers!

[Afghanistan]

Lets say you are an Arch Mage, would the reduction in daily number of base-spells be modified too?

Yes



What I mean is whether Ring of Wizardry just doubles the number of spells given on page 55 in PHB or whether it includes modifies?

The item answers this quite clearly:


Bonus spells from high ability scores or school specialization are not doubled.

It only affects your base spells per day, not your bonus spells as a result of modification. For example, a Wizard 15 / Archmage 1 takes High Arcana: Mastery of Shaping and they sacrifice a 6th level spell slot, they now would only have, before bonus spells for a high ability score, 2 6th level spell slots. If they somehow got their hands on a Ring of Epic Wizardry (VI), they would gain 2 additional bonus 6th level spell slots, as a result of the ring, for a total of 4, 6th level spell slots.

[Max Caysey]

Yes




The item answers this quite clearly:



It only affects your base spells per day, not your bonus spells as a result of modification. For example, a Wizard 15 / Archmage 1 takes High Arcana: Mastery of Shaping and they sacrifice a 6th level spell slot, they now would only have, before bonus spells for a high ability score, 2 6th level spell slots. If they somehow got their hands on a Ring of Epic Wizardry (VI), they would gain 2 additional bonus 6th level spell slots, as a result of the ring, for a total of 4, 6th level spell slots.

Cool, thanks!

Am I then also to understand that if you had a class feature that said: "A character who knows this technique can cast one additional spell per spell level per day." would then also have this extra spell doubled?

Or like if you took the feat Extra Slot that extra slot would also be doubled?

[Bphill561]

Yeah, it has a pretty funny synergy with the Forgotten Realms feat "Arcane Manipulation". The feat allows you to convert up to 3 spell slots into a number of smaller spell slots that total up to the orginal. It was pretty fun turning three level 7 spell slots into 21 1st level slots for silent image for a shadowcraft mage.

Various other feats and abilites have to be looked at carefully though as some state they grant extra slots as if you had a bonus from a high ability score.

[Aracor]

For a similar reason, Duskblades like Rings of Wizardry a lot.

[Afghanistan]

Cool, thanks!

Am I then also to understand that if you had a class feature that said: "A character who knows this technique can cast one additional spell per spell level per day." would then also have this extra spell doubled?

Or like if you took the feat Extra Slot that extra slot would also be doubled?

Assuming the text is similar to the Extra Slot feat, and not like the Loremaster ability (which explicitly calls itself out as being similar to a bonus for high stats)? It will function perfectly fine.

[SLOTHRPG95]

For a similar reason, Duskblades like Rings of Wizardry a lot.

As do Ultimate Magi.


Assuming the text is similar to the Extra Slot feat, and not like the Loremaster ability (which explicitly calls itself out as being similar to a bonus for high stats)? It will function perfectly fine.

Yes, the Extra Slot feat just says you "gain one extra spell slot" so by RAW you should be fine. But as with anything like this, check with your DM first. I think there's a semi-substantial risk of them saying, "no that's silly, it's clearly a bonus slot and hence not doubled" or (in a low- to mid-OP setting) just finding it too nice a synergy and banning the combination.

[Elkad]

It's confusing and overpriced as worded is what it is. (kinda like that sentence).

Just houserule it and double everything. (Standard d&d doubling, of +100%)


20k for 4 extra first level spells on your Wizard (you know, the iconic class the ring is named for)? Or you could buy 20 pearls of power. Or 10 pearls and a bag of 400 first level scrolls to cover the lost utility. Or 10 pearls and 10 50-charge wands and 100 scrolls. And save your ring slot no matter what.

Focused specialist? Oh, you only get 3 extra spells. Even worse deal.

[Afghanistan]

It's confusing and overpriced as worded is what it is. (kinda like that sentence).

Just houserule it and double everything. (Standard d&d doubling, of +100%)

20k for 4 extra first level spells on your Wizard (you know, the iconic class the ring is named for)? Or you could buy 20 pearls of power. Or 10 pearls and a bag of 400 first level scrolls to cover the lost utility. Or 10 pearls and 10 50-charge wands and 100 scrolls. And save your ring slot no matter what.

Yes, the Ring of Wizardry is largely not worth it's own value, yes you can make items that are inherently better to it in every way imaginable, and yes there are better items to fill your ring slot with (a Ring of Freedom of Movement and a Ring of Counterspelling comes to mind immediately), however if you just randomly get a Ring of Wizardry because your GM uses random loot tables? I'd still 100% take it. Doubly so if it is a Ring of Wizard VI because 4th level spells slots are REALLY nice.


Focused specialist? Oh, you only get 3 extra spells. Even worse deal.

Focused Specialist really depends on what you are specializing in. Conjurer with Rapid Summoning? Absolutely. Do it homie. Transmuter? Ehhhh, sure why not? Enchanter? Absolutely not.

[Elkad]

Focused Specialist really depends on what you are specializing in. Conjurer with Rapid Summoning? Absolutely. Do it homie. Transmuter? Ehhhh, sure why not? Enchanter? Absolutely not.

But in the context of a ring of wizardry, may not even be worth it then. 2 specialist slots for a general slot that the ring would double.

RoW has really strange pricing too.
Epic makes sense, but the standard levels are junk.
Probably best to use the epic progression in all of them. (Lvl squared)*10000
Which would be 10k, 40k, 90k, 160k.

Makes the pricing of the 1st level one much more reasonable.

[Afghanistan]

But in the context of a ring of wizardry, may not even be worth it then. 2 specialist slots for a general slot that the ring would double.

I mean, yes, but I've more or less already covered that?


Yes, the Ring of Wizardry is largely not worth it's own value, yes you can make items that are inherently better to it in every way imaginable, and yes there are better items to fill your ring slot with (a Ring of Freedom of Movement and a Ring of Counterspelling comes to mind immediately), however if you just randomly get a Ring of Wizardry because your GM uses random loot tables? I'd still 100% take it. Doubly so if it is a Ring of Wizard VI because 4th level spells slots are REALLY nice.

The only context where it matters is if your DM is just giving out loot according to a random loot table and you do not/are not allowed to craft your own magic items, this circumstance MIGHT make the Ring of Wizardry worth your time, but otherwise, it is still fairly weak. Otherwise, and if given the choice, there are a plethora of better items that aren't even rings that are cheaper and more helpful than a Ring of Wizardry at almost any level. Whether you are taking an ACF or not, it's simply an inefficient magic item and an insufficient use of WBL compared to other items, chief among them being the Ring of Three Wishes, which is oddly cheaper than the Ring of Wizard (IV) :smalltongue:

[Max Caysey]

Indeed the Ring of Wizardry does not seem to be that effective or worth the cost item, but I was more interested in how it specifically worked

In the specific case, I have a 3rd party ability which states:
"The ultimate secret held by the Spellmasters is the knowledge of how to expand the magical potential of a mage to new heights. Supposedly given to the school by some great celestial being in the elder days, the technique of spellcasting mastery demands long hours of study and a strong mind. A character who knows this technique can cast one additional spell per spell level per day."

I also have an item which simple states:
"Grants the ability to cast one extra spell per level (1-9)." (Incidentally, the cost of this item, has been calculated using the price for pearls of power, in every level.)

Both things; the ability and item, have been counted as spell slots and not bonus spells so far. Either way it was never an issue, because they just gave +1 extra spell per level each, and that was it. Now I have found a Ring of Wizardry IV, and so now the ring either provides 4, 5 or 6 extra spells however its calculated. We have had different DMs, who all have added something more or less unique to the game... But I want to get as close to RAW as I can here!


Cheers!

[Powerdork]

The reasonable ruling is that it doubles the number you pluck off the class table. In a core-only environment, the only complicating factors they needed to spell out were spell school bonus slots and bonus spells from a high ability score; anything further should have been written with the ring of wizardry in mind, but that's excessively wordy with little payoff and such a narrow interaction.

The RAW answer is that only spell school bonus slots and bonus spells from a high ability score aren't doubled.


Part of the role of a GM is to handle interactions like this, and with rotating GMs, the work on that should be shared.

[Bphill561]

Indeed the Ring of Wizardry does not seem to be that effective or worth the cost item, but I was more interested in how it specifically worked

In the specific case, I have a 3rd party ability which states:
"The ultimate secret held by the Spellmasters is the knowledge of how to expand the magical potential of a mage to new heights. Supposedly given to the school by some great celestial being in the elder days, the technique of spellcasting mastery demands long hours of study and a strong mind. A character who knows this technique can cast one additional spell per spell level per day."

I also have an item which simple states:
"Grants the ability to cast one extra spell per level (1-9)." (Incidentally, the cost of this item, has been calculated using the price for pearls of power, in every level.)

Both things; the ability and item, have been counted as spell slots and not bonus spells so far. Either way it was never an issue, because they just gave +1 extra spell per level each, and that was it. Now I have found a Ring of Wizardry IV, and so now the ring either provides 4, 5 or 6 extra spells however its calculated. We have had different DMs, who all have added something more or less unique to the game... But I want to get as close to RAW as I can here


Cheers!

The ability should be doubled since it does not specifically say the extra spells are due to bonus abilities scores or specialization. Also unless it is letting you cast spells that are not prepared ahead of time on a wizard, then they are clearly slots (which you said you have been doing). This ability also sounds permanent.

The item is another matter. 3.5 does not usually distinguish abilities from magic items working differently from say class or feats, so you get builds with a ring of evasion to qualify for prestige class entry. This is not universally liked. It also gets interesting if the item is taken off and you still have slots left, where do they go? By RAW it should double as well, but you have the RAI person sitting right in front of you that made the item. I think I would make your case by pointing out the rules and see what the DM's and the item creator thinks. The pearl of power pricing makes it an iffy bet as far as RAI goes since they don't actually give slots and the DM might have not thought about the ring of wizardry in advance. Completely avoids hard feelings.

Reminds me of a 2nd edition staff in the magic item encyclopedia that granted clerics an extra spell slot per level, That was a happy day on the random treasure roll.

The ring of wizard does shine in a few cases. There are Scorching Ray builds that end up with enough metamagic reduction to keep the spell in a 2nd level spell slot with twin, maximized, etc. The more slots the wizard has, the more elemental substitution/admixture combinations available. Pearls of power work great out of combat to restore slots, but you might need the right combination or number of slots memorized to begin with to cover your bases. Plus, maybe you would some other level 2 spells available besides the ray. Same thing with the for mentioned Shadowcraft mage. I got the metatmagic reduction to -5, so I could persistent spell a level 0 silent image in a first level spell slot. With the residual magic feat ability applying a free heighten due to a previous round casting, persistent miracle spell emulation was a go. I know cheesy but it was that kind of game.

[Elkad]

Indeed the Ring of Wizardry does not seem to be that effective or worth the cost item, but I was more interested in how it specifically worked

In the specific case, I have a 3rd party ability which states ...

I also have an item which simple states...

Those both resolve down to "ask the DM".

Consider an ability that says "when charging, you do an extra 1d6 damage". Is that multiplied with a lance, valorous, etc? If the ability says it is "precision damage", it would be no, but if it's unspecified, who knows? Ask the DM.

I'd go into the conversation asking for both, but I'd likely give ground to "ability doubled, item not" pretty fast.

[Max Caysey]

The ability should be doubled since it does not specifically say the extra spells are due to bonus abilities scores or specialization. Also unless it is letting you cast spells that are not prepared ahead of time on a wizard, then they are clearly slots (which you said you have been doing). This ability also sounds permanent.

The item is another matter. 3.5 does not usually distinguish abilities from magic items working differently from say class or feats, so you get builds with a ring of evasion to qualify for prestige class entry. This is not universally liked. It also gets interesting if the item is taken off and you still have slots left, where do they go? By RAW it should double as well, but you have the RAI person sitting right in front of you that made the item. I think I would make your case by pointing out the rules and see what the DM's and the item creator thinks. The pearl of power pricing makes it an iffy bet as far as RAI goes since they don't actually give slots and the DM might have not thought about the ring of wizardry in advance. Completely avoids hard feelings.

Reminds me of a 2nd edition staff in the magic item encyclopedia that granted clerics an extra spell slot per level, That was a happy day on the random treasure roll.


I am very much inclined to think the same, since the ability being looks like it should be an (Ex) should indeed count as extra slots, whereas the item, should count as bonus slots. Incidentally its also the middle ground in terms of power and would yield 5 extra level 4 spells. Which I am going to enjoy like a mofo for sure!

Btw, do tell about that staff, sounds fun!


Those both resolve down to "ask the DM".

Consider an ability that says "when charging, you do an extra 1d6 damage". Is that multiplied with a lance, valorous, etc? If the ability says it is "precision damage", it would be no, but if it's unspecified, who knows? Ask the DM.

I'd go into the conversation asking for both, but I'd likely give ground to "ability doubled, item not" pretty fast.

You are right in as much there is no totally clear RAW ruling here. Although I agree with Bphill561 I am going to have to ask our DM. Simply because of the nature of the rules. However, having sound arguments and the voices of reason from this forum can't hurt. I mean the collective amount of hours of D&D between the players here is an invaluable resource! But yes it is going to be up to the DM. The good thing is, the current usually listens to arguments and reason...