What does Immortality actually mean?

[Max Caysey]

So, I am looking to understand what "Does not age" and "Immortal" means mechanically in D&D 3.5


The definition I've been able to find is as follows:

Immortality: All deities (even those of rank 0) are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to death from massive damage.

My question is basically if one can assume this to actually be the definition on immortality in 3.5? Furthermore I want to know if immortality (as in does not age) means not gaining the aging penalties, but retaining the bonuses?

Here's why I assume that being immortal (does not age) removes aging penalties but retains the bonuses.

The physical penalties are not gained, because being immortal mean not having ones body deteriorate over time, thus not gaining the penalties. However, since your mind is still functioning and experiencing life, you still gain the bonuses, because you actually become more experienced and thus your mind still becomes sharper/more mature/ and more experienced...

My understanding is basically mirroring the monk's ability Timeless Body, except you never die from old age.

Am I right in this interpretation, or are there other definitions of immortality?


Cheers!

[The Viscount]

That would certainly make sense, and it's a reasonable houserule. As written, since deities do not age, they simply wouldn't advance through the categories at all.

There are at least a few races that are immortal of a sort.

Killoren from Races of the Wild for example, reach Old age at 100 years, but never advance to Venerable and cannot die of old age. They can still be killed like any other creature. They're fey, and this definitely fits the "fey definition" of immortality meaning you don't die of old age, but their life can be ended.

Elan are similar, they reach Venerable, but have no maximum age.

Warforged are in kind of a funny position. The chart provided states they hit Middle Age at 150 years, but don't advance beyond that. The text explains that in Eberron the oldest Warforged were only made 33 years ago, so this is based on theory. The rules as provided function like Killoren, but might change depending on campaign, I guess.

There are a few classes such as Cloud Anchorite that grant you immortality. Cloud Anchorite, for example, removes your maximum age.

[Psyren]

The big question you need to answer is what happens to any aging penalties that were accrued prior to the character gaining immortality - are those retained and simply never increase further, or do they get removed (i.e. functionally the character is "reset" to a youthful Adult.)

Regardless, the most important part of D&D immortality was answered - you can still be killed, but you won't die on your own, i.e. immortal does not mean invulnerable.

[Max Caysey]

That would certainly make sense, and it's a reasonable houserule. As written, since deities do not age, they simply wouldn't advance through the categories at all.

So, if I understand correectly, you say that aging, is defined as progressing throught the age categories? Is there somewhere where this is explicitly stated in the rules?


The big question you need to answer is what happens to any aging penalties that were accrued prior to the character gaining immortality - are those retained and simply never increase further, or do they get removed (i.e. functionally the character is "reset" to a youthful Adult.)

Regardless, the most important part of D&D immortality was answered - you can still be killed, but you won't die on your own, i.e. immortal does not mean invulnerable.

That's basically why I thought it made sense that "not aging" was identical to Timeless body (but without dying of old age). I mean your mind is still online, still accumulating knowledge, information, and experiences... Also, when reading about characters like Larloch, Elminster, or other immortal characters, who are 1000+ years old, they seem indeed to have their mind ravaged by time/ age. Non of them act like teenagers or have the mind of youthful adults, however their bodies are not affected by the penalties, why I believe that if you are conscious/ aware/ and accumulating experience for the amount of time stated in the age categories, the bonuses apply...

I don't know how to answer your very relevant question, but I assume, if The Viscounts point if legit, then they revert to youthful adult - but this thread was exactly that, figuring out how exactly immortality functions as written.

[Psyren]

Well - Elminster's stats in ELH have him at 13 Str, 18 Dex and 24 Con. He doesn't appear to have any magic items that would lead to these values (though there is a line that he can obtain any non-artifact item he needs pretty quickly) - so it's unclear whether aging penalties are factored in there, but the process of becoming a Chosen could have either halted, reversed, or simply cancelled out penalties from his age.

[The Viscount]

Anything that I've seen that grants immortality merely halts aging, it wouldn't revert a character to youth. I can't point to any sentence explicitly stating that "does not age" means "does not advance through age categories" but I can't think of anything else that it would do.

[Max Caysey]

Anything that I've seen that grants immortality merely halts aging, it wouldn't revert a character to youth. I can't point to any sentence explicitly stating that "does not age" means "does not advance through age categories" but I can't think of anything else that it would do.

So we are left with "its up to the DM"? I mean if there is no definition for "does not age" or what aging precisely means, the I guess its not term or condition which is clearly defined.

I totally see why simply halting aging seems like a fine way, but too me, as I've mentioned, it makes no sense to me why the mental acuity inst progressing, when an online mind keeps absorbing information/ experiences and emotions... likewise the whole bit about ancient characters being mentally unstable because of age, seems to indicate that at least RAI that the mind keeps evolving even thought the character in question is immortal. Again, why I think that Timeless Body, albeit without dying seems most appropriate way of handling it...

But if there isn't a fixed, clear, succinct definition of immortality in the rules, I guess the DM takes precedence here!

[Psyren]

Anything that I've seen that grants immortality merely halts aging, it wouldn't revert a character to youth. I can't point to any sentence explicitly stating that "does not age" means "does not advance through age categories" but I can't think of anything else that it would do.

The typical sentence you'll see is something like "Any {aging} penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place." Whether this is reminder text or an explicit provision depends on how the immortality ability itself was worded.

[Thurbane]

I made a thread discussing the meaning and effects of immortality in 3.5 once, but can't find it right now.

From memory, I found the following citation to be one of the more useful and concise ones, outside of the Divine Rank rules:


Immortality (Ex): A silthilar does not age, nor can it be harmed by effects that cause magical aging.

[Max Caysey]

I made a thread discussing the meaning and effects of immortality in 3.5 once, but can't find it right now.

From memory, I found the following citation to be one of the more useful and concise ones, outside of the Divine Rank rules:

Sweet... if you find it, please post it! :smallbiggrin:

[Thurbane]

Sweet... if you find it, please post it! :smallbiggrin:

Found it: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528122-3-5-Immortality

[Max Caysey]

Found it: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528122-3-5-Immortality

Awesome!

I was looking at the article about immortality and mortallity with the Fey example, and well they left it pretty much up to the DM to decide. Personally, which should probably be clear by now, I'm personally a type 1.C from that article: "He advances age categories, gaining solely the positive adjustments to ability scores due to aging. Following this philosophy, fey mostly benefit from their long lives."

But as you too mention, I'm also looking for a definition on immortality. For the most part it seems immortality means not aging. Now I just need a precise definition of what "not aging" means (how they ever reach adulthood is a mystery). The Fey article seem to suggest that one could define immortality in multiple ways...

Question then become which one should I use? Which one seems most correct or most logical, all things considered?

[Wildstag]

Dragon 354 has an article about Immortality as a feat chosen at level 1. This comes with the Endless extraordinary quality. The text is below.


Endless (Ex):

A creature with this special quality ceases to age once it achieves a certain point in its life cycle, most often sometime after reaching adulthood but prior to its equivalent of middle age. These creatures exist in a special kind of physiological stasis, counteracting all the consequences of advancing years that usually lead to frailty and eventually death. While they must still perform all the necessary sustaining actions (eating, sleeping, breathing, and so on) normally demanded of their type, they never suffer from any sort of physical deterioration or consequent reduction in Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution. Lacking this special insight into their own mortality and the incentive to find new, less taxing ways to deal with challenges, they also never gain any improvements to their Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma due to advancing age.

This particular example of immortality has those conditions tacked onto it. I do not know if it is supposed to be implied that this is the norm, if this is merely codifying immortality across the board, or if this is only an exception to the rule to balance immortality for (potentially) first level characters. Just thought it might add to the conversation.

[Max Caysey]

Dragon 354 has an article about Immortality as a feat chosen at level 1. This comes with the Endless extraordinary quality. The text is below.



This particular example of immortality has those conditions tacked onto it. I do not know if it is supposed to be implied that this is the norm, if this is merely codifying immortality across the board, or if this is only an exception to the rule to balance immortality for (potentially) first level characters. Just thought it might add to the conversation.

That is a good find!
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Here it would seem, that it simply means not progressing further into age categories than adulthood... Am I the only one that find it odd, that one would not get better at finding less taxing ways of dealing with problems? I know I'm trying to find the RAW answer here, but it would seem my sense of what makes sense it not necessarily what the rules say... I'm wondering if I'm the only one who feels that way?

[hamishspence]

I think of it as kinda like Peter Pan, or Redcloak from OOTS - your mental growth has been arrested - you never grow up in the same sense that normal beings do.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon 354 has an article about Immortality as a feat chosen at level 1. This comes with the Endless extraordinary quality. The text is below.

This particular example of immortality has those conditions tacked onto it. I do not know if it is supposed to be implied that this is the norm, if this is merely codifying immortality across the board, or if this is only an exception to the rule to balance immortality for (potentially) first level characters. Just thought it might add to the conversation.It's the common mistake: by the RAW, despite to what the article may imply, Wedded to History feat doesn't neither grants you Endless SQ, nor even immortality in general
You may get Endless SQ via the Kissed by the Ages spell (from the very same article, and even the very same page as Endless)


Anyway, Silthilar (Lords of Madness) have
Immortality (Ex): A silthilar does not age, nor can it be harmed by effects that cause magical aging.

[nijineko]

There is a potion of immortality in a Dungeon mag that grants the ability not to die, but does not prevent aging penalties, and in fact states that the highest aging penalties gained occur again every one hundred years thereafter... including the physical ones.

Somewhat of a creepy horror version, but there's that too.

Here's one comprehensive reference for you: The Immortality Handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1179.0).

[SirNibbles]

There is a potion of immortality in a Dungeon mag that grants the ability not to die, but does not prevent aging penalties, and in fact states that the highest aging penalties gained occur again every one hundred years thereafter... including the physical ones.

Of note is the fact that while it does hit you with the penalties, it also gives you the benefits to your mental stats. If you have a way to not take penalties (especially if that immunity to ageing penalties still allows you to be magically aged), it's basically a free way to increase your mental stats.

[Max Caysey]

Is there any way of not dying from old age, while not gaining the penalties, but gaining the bonuses?

[Thurbane]

Is there any way of not dying from old age, while not gaining the penalties, but gaining the bonuses?

There may be other cases, but Alienist 9 technically qualifies. You stop taking aging penalties, still accruse bonuses, and where your time is up you don't "die" as such, but are "stolen away by horrible entities". :smalltongue:

[ShurikVch]

Of note is the fact that while it does hit you with the penalties, it also gives you the benefits to your mental stats. If you have a way to not take penalties (especially if that immunity to ageing penalties still allows you to be magically aged), it's basically a free way to increase your mental stats.For extra cheese, make an Unspeakable Oath to He Who Is Not to Be Named: +1 Int on every level, and also +1 Int for the every year of your life; Cha drain is simple to mitigate; when (if) you will die at some point, King in Yellow would either transfer the Oath to some of your relatives, or animate you as Undead with Chosen of Hastur template

[Him]

I'll let you know.... j/k, I'll be too busy.....

Muahahahahah!!

[The Viscount]

Is there any way of not dying from old age, while not gaining the penalties, but gaining the bonuses?

Elan with Timeless Body from Monk, Druid, or as Thurbane mentioned, Alienist. Timeless body negates all the penalties but keeps the bonuses, and Elan helpfully has age categories all the way up to Venerable, but no maximum age. Take that, horrible entities!

[Melcar]

Since humans actually loose IQ - i.e. cognitive ability - when getting older, you could argue that the bonuses occur not as a consequence of getting physical older (since actually the opposite is the case), but because of the amount of time the mind has to absorb and process information and knowledge. Thus being more experienced means being more capable, efficient or skilled in ability to critically reflect, deduce and reason... Thus, the longer your brain has been processing information, the better it gets at it!

[Wildstag]

It's the common mistake: by the RAW, despite to what the article may imply, Wedded to History feat doesn't neither grants you Endless SQ, nor even immortality in general

I know it's days late, but to respond to this: the flavor text of several of those options do not make any sense unless the PC is immortal. Since you need the feat to have that background, it is logical to assume that the feat makes one immortal. The article says "others draw upon the sum total of her experiences over the centuries, mastering esoteric skills, building a legendary reputation, or perhaps simply developing a ferocious will to live. All of them require her to take the Wedded to History feat in order to gain any of the benefits of the background."

So yeah, by raw, it doesn't give the PC the Endless (ex) quality, but by the raw of the flavor text (while still accepting it is flavor), Elder of Legend, Golden Ager, Hand of Prophecy, Survivor, and Throwback explicitly mention some form of longevity. A reasonable reading would be that the character is immortal.

[ShurikVch]

I know it's days late, but to respond to this: the flavor text of several of those options do not make any sense unless the PC is immortal. Since you need the feat to have that background, it is logical to assume that the feat makes one immortal. The article says "others draw upon the sum total of her experiences over the centuries, mastering esoteric skills, building a legendary reputation, or perhaps simply developing a ferocious will to live. All of them require her to take the Wedded to History feat in order to gain any of the benefits of the background."

So yeah, by raw, it doesn't give the PC the Endless (ex) quality, but by the raw of the flavor text (while still accepting it is flavor), Elder of Legend, Golden Ager, Hand of Prophecy, Survivor, and Throwback explicitly mention some form of longevity. A reasonable reading would be that the character is immortal.Since it's, in no way, a first discussion about that subject, let me just quote that already was said earlier:
Dragon Magazine #354 introduces a feat called Wedded to History. It can only be taken at 1st level and gives the player the ability to choose from one of several accompanying "ancient backgrounds" which all have their own minor effects.

This feat is often brought up whenever people talk about becoming immortal or ageless in D&D. Except I noticed neither the feat nor the backgrounds themselves indicate that they prevent characters from aging. They only seem to imply the character is capable of living for extraordinarily long periods of time for unspecified reasons.

It seems like the intentions of the feat was in fact to give the character immortality. But the fact that it isn't explicitly stated anywhere always irked me. It's certainly an interesting feat, but the lack of clarity always ruined it for me; and thus I've never used it.
There is zero text in that article to imply that the feat would give the Endless quality. Even if there was text that implied it, that's not how feats work.


The feat does exactly and only what is in the actual feat entry's text.
The feat, and its associated Ancient Backgrounds, only give you the mechanical benefits that they list in writing. That's how the rules system works. You don't have any ability or quality until the rules say you do, and you can't do anything the rules don't provide you a means to do. There is no rules text here that would make you ageless, immortal, or Endless (Ex). Thus, you aren't any of those things, with just this feat. Full stop, end of story. The article already gives you a mechanical means of acquiring the Endless quality, so if you want that, then use the means it gives you.
Honestly, if anything, not having the endless special quality is actually a benefit, because you no longer lose out on aging bonuses.
Even fluff-wise, there are plenty of ways you could be that old and still age normally, like being frozen for a while.
Explaining how you can live forever

Your character might have been born an age ago, but somehow got sent forwards in time, or else frozen in some manner that prevented normal ageing. This applies to Buck Rogers (TV series version), Planet of the Apes, Idiocracy, Sleeper (1973), and The Last Train (TV series). Alternately, the character's personality might live through many bodies, being reincarnated with full memories of past events they lived through (but not trained knowledge of skills etc.).
Fluffwise, Wedded to History seems to be for a "King asleep in Mountain" type character. Its a myth type with its own designation in the motif index system. King Arthur, asleep in Avalon is the most prominent example of the type. It is said he will return at the nations greatest need. (And probably slaughter all the Saxon blood thats overrun his nation, but hey). But there is a lot of these types. Just the UK has Arthur, Merlin, Thomas the Rymer, no less than two different Owains, Bran, Fion, the Earl of Desmond, the Earl of Kildare, King Harold and Sir Frances Drake.

The US continued the mother countrys fascination with Steve and Buck Rogers. You could use the feat with other characters, elves who have been out of history for a long time, actual immortals etc, but it looks like its mainly intended for characters who have skipped out on a big slice of time.