PF - Building A Better Ice Cube

[unseenmage]

Corpse Manipulation from Spheres of Power let's one add a size category to a corpse that then gets reanimated as a bigger version of that undead.

I was excited to use my newly aquired Permanent Undead ability to make a Frostfallen Gelatinous Cube that's also a huge ROUS (reanimation of unusual size).
A ROUS ice cube.
FYI Spheres size increases are only a +2 to Str and a -2 to Dex per size gained.

I'm merrily modifying the G. Cube's stats when I notice... If I make it a huge ooze it'll have no Dex, negative Dex even! Well crap. Now what do I do.

My question is, is there a permanent solution to my dilemma or am I building a really big ice sculpture for our newly aquired base of operations?

(Just in case it matters, it's technically a Gelatinous Cube with the Fiery simple template as well.)

[Firest Kathon]

Can you provide a link for the exact rules for the ability modifications for size increases? I was not able to find it myself.

It depends on the wording. If the size increase applies a Dex penalty (like e.g. the enlarge person spell), it could not reduce Dex below 1:


In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.

[unseenmage]

Can you provide a link for the exact rules for the ability modifications for size increases? I was not able to find it myself.

It depends on the wording. If the size increase applies a Dex penalty (like e.g. the enlarge person spell), it could not reduce Dex below 1:

I'm not sure if theres a general rule elsewhere but here is how the Size Change (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/alteration#toc26) ability is worded.

Though what I'm using is this Corpse Manipulation (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/death#toc6) ability.


EDIT
From our group's rules guru via chat,

"The exact quote from the core rulebook is "Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1."

Third paragraph under the "Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain" heading. http://legacy.aonprd.com/coreRulebook/glossary.html

Is it a temporary penalty?

The way the rule reads, it doesn't prevent a permanent size change from dropping a score below 1, but a temporary size change can't drop it below 1. Yay technicalities."

[Firest Kathon]

To be honest I do not think that Corpse Manipulation changes the ability scores at all. There is no general rule (that I know of) that changing the size of something changes its ability scores. Rather, all abilites which change size and ability scores list both effects explicitly. Considering that that Corpse Manipulation effect is described as a disguise, I do not think it is meant to alter the ability scores.

If you reference the ability scores from the Size Change ability, it also mentions "This cannot decrease an ability score beneath 1".

Edit to add: In regards to the penalty quote, my reading is that the relevant normative text is "penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1". The part referencing the spells and abilites is in my opinion descriptive, therefor it is not relevant if the penalty is actually temporary or not.

[Psyren]

Increasing a creature's size should never paralyze it1, so whether it's technically a "penalty" or not, I would treat it as one and set the lower bound to 1.


1: *inserts physics-blocking fingers in ears and hums "la-la-la..."

[Angrith]

Well if we're sufficiently pedantic about it, if permanent ability penalties are treated like ability damage, then they should heal like ability damage.

Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
and

Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Quotes are from the same source you linked, OP, and emphasis is mine.

So you have an ice sculpture for a day or two, then the dex comes back online. However, after reading the ability rules myself, I'm inclined to believe that they are not stating permanent ability penalties function differently than temporary ones but rather that penalties are assumed to be temporary. Size changes usually are after all. If I were your GM (and I'm not), I would rule that since the Size Change ability says it applies a penalty, then it does. Hard stop.

Either way, your slime should get his dex.

[unseenmage]

The funniest part of all of this is that it's a single point of Dex. Just Dex 1 is the difference between unholy icyhot Jell-o abomination and a lawn ornament.


More from our resident rules guru,

"Oh, if you really want to get pedantic, "Undead are immune to damage or penalties to their physical ability scores."

No size penalty to Str/Dex from size change. Ever. Because undead.
Yay pedantry.

Of course, if you really want to deepen the pedant hole, corpses aren't immune to ability penalties, and a corpse is not an undead until you reanimate the body.

Probably easiest to say that no penalties can drop an ability score below 1."

[Angrith]

Definitely use the "can't go below 1" ruling, but to continue the pedantry: Corpses are non-magical objects and thus don't even have ability scores.