Balancing Kineticist Fixes

[mehs]

So I'm playing in an after the apocalypse campaign. The gods are all busy losing a war, so divine spellcasting is nerfed in how many spells per day they get (it is at least half with a wisdom check to prepare up to normal amount). So I'm playing an aqua kineticist to be the healer. Going to become a mud kineticist at level 7 because apparently all of the grand scale enemies are vulnerable to earth. Not just acid damage, but anything earth related. So that will be fun. Anyway, GM has so far allowed a number of fixes to the class, so that I can play it as a blaster as it is supposed to be played. Checking with you guyses to make sure they are still balanced. Aim is to turn a borderline tier 6 class/playstyle to closer to tier 2.

---Get burn back every hour (proposed to gm the idea that I could use a ring of sustenance and the keep watch spell enchanted on to it to theoretically get burn back every two hours, GM said that the logic works, and went ahead and made it so it is automatic and even faster)
---Get an infusion and Utility talent every level instead of staggered every other level (fun fact, all kineticist infusions are apparently worth the same as a paladin's mercy's. They are that underpowered).
---changing most durations and maximums to be based on constitution rather than burn cost. Slick lasting for 3+con mod rounds, pushing bull rushing a max of 5 ft per con mod, etc.
---utility requires 2x level -1 (as spell level) instead of 2x level
---able to use gather power on utility talents
---Full bab
---laxer restrictions on which kinetic blasts are prereq for the various infusions and utilities
---Extend and extreme range are feats that apply to all blasts instead of form infusions that cost burn
---some homebrew infusions and talents
So far approved is Taxing infusion, Improved Draining Infusion, and Improved Kinetic Healer
--improved kinetic healer, spell level 4, burn 2
Effect of remove disease, remove paralyze, remove blindness/deafness, and remove poison
--taxing infusion, level 2, burn cost 2, associated blast: any. This blast treats any target with a subtype opposite to the blast's element as if the target were vulnerable to the blast, applies on physical blasts only. (the physical blasts only thing was supposed to prevent double vulnerability letting me do triple damage, but GM ruled that the grand scheme enemies are indeed triple vulnerable to earth if taxing infusions is used)
--Improved draining infusion, spell level 3, as draining infusion, but only requires that target have a resistance, immunity, or matching subtype. Applies elemental overflow. (Will likely not take it as im planning on using physical blasts, but it is to avert a a cold or such elementalist being unable to fight something with cold immunity)

The improved version require me to have the regular versions.

[Kurald Galain]

That's a long list... but given that it's the kinny we're talking about, that's probably necessary.

I see the following issues that you may want to address for combat:
(1) kinny's blast is largely unaffected by party buffs (e.g. Prayer, bard song, Haste). This makes him quickly fall behind in damage, and full BAB doesn't really help.
(2) kinny has no reliable way to deal with damage resistance or spell resistance.
(3) assuming this is not a low-wealth campaign, kinny should get some kind of equivalent to magic weaponry.

Regarding utility, bear in mind that most utility talents are the equivalent of (much) lower-level spells. For instance, many L4 kinny talents copy a L2 spell (or often, are weaker versions of a L2 spell). So you write that "utility requires 2x level -1" but it would be fairer to write "2x level -3" and it would probably not be overpowered to write "1x level".

Finally, note that the water element doesn't get a lot of good utility. At low to mid level you're basically limited to Grease; which is fairly good, but also rather one-sided.

[mehs]

Forgot about that one
---equivalent to amulet of mighty strikes.
Other thing, with the kinetic invocation feat, instead of getting the ability to pick those spells as utilities, they just get all of those spells as utilities (though they are still locked by needing to have a high enough caster level and kinetic blast)

Kineticists get things like earthquake and tsunami as level 9 utility talents. Spam casting those at level 9 instead of level 17 is opish.
Improved Draining infusion and regular draining infusion are the main things that will be bypassing immunity and DR.

[Kurald Galain]

Kineticists get things like earthquake and tsunami as level 9 utility talents. Spam casting those at level 9 instead of level 17 is opish.
The ability names do suggest that, but if you look at what they actually do...

Well, they have effects like 8d6 damage and knocking creatures prone. It boggles the mind why these are 9th level spells, really.


Ok, so maybe don't blindly downlevel everything. But if e.g. a L4 talent is a weaker version of a L3 spell (e.g. Ice Sculptor) or even a L2 spell (e.g. Plant Disguise, Toxic Infusion) then it could easily be reduced. For example, for any talent based on a spell, use the spell's level instead of the talent's level.

[Kris Moonhand]

Have you looked at the Legendary Kineticist (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Legendary_Kineticist)? It's made some subtle but very important changes to many features that I feel you might like.


That's a long list... but given that it's the kinny we're talking about, that's probably necessary.

I see the following issues that you may want to address for combat:
(1) kinny's blast is largely unaffected by party buffs (e.g. Prayer, bard song, Haste). This makes him quickly fall behind in damage, and full BAB doesn't really help.
(2) kinny has no reliable way to deal with damage resistance or spell resistance.
(3) assuming this is not a low-wealth campaign, kinny should get some kind of equivalent to magic weaponry.
1) Partially untrue. Anything that affects attack and/or damage rolls (such as a prayer, bard song, and haste) affects a kinetic blast, since it is a weapon. With elemental overflow, kineticist has equivalent to full BAB, the only thing they miss out on is one extra attack when using kinetic blade and qualifying for feats a bit earlier. That said, kineticists do fall behind on damage, mostly because their blast is the equivalent to a single sneak attack from an equal leveled Rogue.
2) Kineticists can take Spell Penetration, same as anyone else. Remember, blasts are SLAs. Also, there's Penetrating Infusion. I will agree with you on the DR thing.
3) I recommend some kind of glove or bracer that works like an Amulet of Mighty Fists.

Regarding utility, bear in mind that most utility talents are the equivalent of (much) lower-level spells. For instance, many L4 kinny talents copy a L2 spell (or often, are weaker versions of a L2 spell). So you write that "utility requires 2x level -1" but it would be fairer to write "2x level -3" and it would probably not be overpowered to write "1x level".
They're that high because most of them are at-will.

Finally, note that the water element doesn't get a lot of good utility. At low to mid level you're basically limited to Grease; which is fairly good, but also rather one-sided.
Only if you stick to vanilla~ Check out all these sweet talents. (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Water_(Hydrokinesis)) There's a world of 3pp out there for kineticists (I heartily recommend the Ultimate Kineticist Compendium). :smallwink:

[Kurald Galain]

1) Partially untrue. Anything that affects attack and/or damage rolls (such as a prayer, bard song, and haste) affects a kinetic blast, since it is a weapon.
That would be a reasonable houserule, but as written, it's a spell-like ability and not a weapon. Unless you use the blade infusion.

(and the point of Haste is not the +1 to hit anyway, but the extra attack; it would be reasonable to make that work with kinblasts, but it does not).

Penetrating Infusion is a good idea, unfortunately most elements cannot use it.


They're that high because most of them are at-will.
Yes, and the point is that Paizo massively overvalues at-will abilities.

[mehs]

They're that high because most of them are at-will.


Even with the at wills, most of them have a burn cost. Only a few are like Veil of mists where you take a point of burn to be able to use essentially disguise self at will afterwards. Most others are that you can do it "at will", but it only lasts 1 round. Which is just bad.

[vasilidor]

you would be better off replacing them with sphere casters. less work and better balanced from the get-go.

[mehs]

you would be better off replacing them with sphere casters. less work and better balanced from the get-go.

Im wanting to play as a (fixed) kineticist though.

Anyway, on the whole, what tier would kineticist be with these fixes applied?

[vasilidor]

this may get you to tier 4, possibly 3. 2 is still stretching it for the kenny, burn is that bad of a mechanic.