Power attack and Combat expertise

[haplot]

Just a quick query really, both power attack and combat expertise allows you to trade attack bonus to either damage or AC.

Can you trade the same bonus away twice?

I'm assuming not. Thoughts?

[Buufreak]

As long as neither, nor the sum of what you are trading exceeds your total base attack bonus, I don't see any reason or rule preventing this.

[Aotrs Commander]

Technically, it's not trading away, you are taking a penalty of up to your base attack bonus (in 3.5, or a set number in PF), so there is nothing stopping you taking the penalties for doing both at once (which stack). So if you had BAB 15 (assuming 3.5), you could take a -5 to PA for +5/10 damage and a further -5 to using Combat Expertise for +5 to AC. Though I can't think of many situations where you would want to take such a big penalty (in this case -10) to your attack roll, even at 15 level. I mean, you could do that at BAB 5, but at that point, you would be probably struggling to hit anything at all at, given your net attack bonus would likely still be negative at that level (which would make PA pointless).

Can't even see that it'd be useful with Shock Trooper (Heedless Charge), actually; since all you'd be achieving was taking a -5 penalty to attack (from Combat Expertise) for +5/10 to damage (from PA) for the penalty and bonus to AC to cancel out (at which point, yo'd be no better off than someone just PA on a charge normally.)

So, in short, yes you can, but why would you want to?



(If you were asking whether you could do both but only take the penalty once, then no.)

[Zombimode]

Just a quick query really, both power attack and combat expertise allows you to trade attack bonus to either damage or AC.

Can you trade the same bonus away twice?

I'm assuming not. Thoughts?

What do you mean with "twice"?

If you Power Attack for 1 and Combat Expertise for 1, you have a penalty of -2 on your attacks.

You can't have a -1 penalty "paying" for both Power Attack 1 and Combat Expertise.


In other words: there is nothing stoping you from using Power Attack and Combat Expertise at the same time. Bot feats a similar in that they provide a bonus by accepting a penalty, and that in both cases the penalty cannot exceed your bab. You are not "trading" your base attack bonus for something. Your base attack bonus stays the same, you're just taking penalties.

While the feats share similar mechanic, they are not connected.

[Segev]

Though I can't think of many situations where you would want to take such a big penalty (in this case -10) to your attack roll, even at 15 level.

It isn't negating it entirely, but such massive stacked penalties become more feasible to apply if you benefit from blade tutor's spirit (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blade-tutor-s-spirit/). Admittedly, it's PF, not 3.5, but at level 15, it would give +4 to hit, as long as that +4 was only negating penalties from things like power attack, expertise, or two-weapon fighting. So you can stack them a bit higher.

[haplot]

what i mean by twice is if you have a BAB of 5, can you trade all five for power attack AND all five for combat expertise at the same time?

I can't think of a situation when I would want to do both at the same time, but just curious as to whether it can be done

[Segev]

what i mean by twice is if you have a BAB of 5, can you trade all five for power attack AND all five for combat expertise at the same time?

I can't think of a situation when I would want to do both at the same time, but just curious as to whether it can be done

No. As has been said, you're not "trading" bonus. You're taking a penalty that can be up to a certain amount equal to a bonus you have.

You can take a penalty of up to -5 (if you have BAB of +5) for power attack. You can take a penalty of up to -5 (if you have BAB of +5) for expertise. You may take both penalties for both benefits. The penalties stack.

[Kayblis]

You can take penalties up to the limit expressed in the feats. So if you're level 6, you can take a -6 from PA and a -5 from CE, resulting in a -11 to hit, a +6/12 to damage, and a +5 to AC. The penalties stack and are independent.

You are not actually reducing your BAB. Even if you use PA to its max, you can still use iterative attacks, same with CE. There's no actual trade involved, your BAB is not a point pool, you're not expending points to use these combat options. The penalties have a cap, and that's the only interaction between these feats and your BAB.

Maybe you're fighting a losing battle, maybe you don't have any hope of hitting with less than a 20 anyways, or maybe you have +40 to hit and just activated Wraithstrike. There are scenarios in which taking huge penalties to hit for both benefits might sound sensible. Also, some feats and items work off of using PA or CE, so these would get activated on top of all that too. Depending on your specific character, getting both sides of the equation to activate sound like a good idea.

[haplot]

Good to know I was wrong.

Thank you for your replies, its very much appreciated.

Have a good one !