Divine Agent Optimization Project

[magicalmagicman]

This PrC has potential. It is capable of obtaining free wishes at level 14 (earlier if this thread is successful). But, I couldn't find anything online regarding the class. Which surprises me because anything that can cheat XP and Material components of spells are usually optimized to the max. Yet here we have one such PrC barely even mentioned online.

So let's change that! Let's optimize this PrC to the extreme.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with the class, Divine Agent is a Divine half casting 3/4 BAB PrC in Manual of the Planes that requires you to have a deity. The defining ability of this class is Godly Gift, which turns any Domain spell into a SLA. So if your god has Envy Domain and you reach the 9th level of Divine Agent, you can make Wish an SLA.

I have to goals for this thread
1. Earliest entry into the PrC as possible.
2. Devise a strategy that can carry you until 14th level, which is when you get the free wish.

*you can use dragon magazine, but I can't so while I won't stop you from using dragon magazine material because this thread isn't supposed to be tailored to me, I'd still like a no dragon magazine build by the end.


Early Entry

You need to be able to cast 2nd level divine spells and have a BAB of +4. The best I could do is 4 levels of Cleric and 1 level of Fighter. If you know of a better way, please share! Within reason of course. High level bard boosting your hd by 2 sort of stuff is not really usable at any table.

Thurbane came up with something better! Paladin Variants from UA for alternate alignments using Illumian or DMM:Heighten Spell for early entry. And a CG, CE, or LE deity with Envy domain.
example:
Paladin of Freedom4 worshipping Sharess enters Divine Agent at level 5.

bean illus came up with a Dragon Magazine variant
Mystic Ranger. Full BAB and gets 2nd level spells at 4th level.
Need a feat to add Knowledge:Religion to the class skill list. Like Apprentice or Knowledge Devotion.

Zombulian came up with a heroes of horror variant
Paladin4 with moderate taint and the Mad Faith feat.


Strategy

I'm at my wit's end here. I got nothing. The best 3rd level spell to turn into a SLA I could think of is Animate Dead, and without a way to get corpses reliably it's a secondary strategy not a primary strategy, and I haven't double checked whether there is a Deity with Envy and Death or Undeath domain.

So no holds barred in this section. If you think you can make a DMM:Persistent Uber Charger that can stay relevant until level 14 then by all means do! My bag of tricks died with the half casting part of this PrC so I got nothing. I think we have no choice but to go Gish.

[bean illus]

Mystic Ranger?

[AvatarVecna]

There's basically no way to cheat around BAB +4 or K (Religion) 7 ranks as prereqs so lvl 4 is the earliest - and that requires a full BAB class that has K Religion as a class skill and 2nd lvl spells by lvl 4, which doesn't exist by default.

Depending on how your table feels about such things, you could maybe go some flavor of Paladin 4 that can somehow use Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster to cast a 1st lvl spell upgraded to 2nd lvl in a 2nd lvl slot...buuuuut this requires 2 1st lvl spell slots, which for a Paladin 4 means needing Cha 20 (and Versatile Spellcaster requires some flavor of spontaneous casting, which paladins don't have by default).

If we wanna get super-cheesy with this set-up, this gets a lot simpler: play a full BAB class that can get K Religion as a class skill, and have somebody use Ability Rip a couple times to transfer somebody else's spellcasting to you. The donor needs to have that spellcasting as a Supernatural ability, though. "But wait, if somebody's using Ability Rip on monster spellcasters to give me their casting, why not just Ability Rip from a Zodar and call it a day?" Good question.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

I’m kinda shocked your taking my tip and running with it. Beyond SLA shenanigans, Divine Agent is considered bad because of its 5/10 caster level progression, hence no optimizers.

My thoughts kinda agree with the fighter/Cleric entry, actually had one in my last campaign, only took Divine Agent through lvl6 though. Ended up grabbing Haste and Permanancy as my SLA’s via the Time domain. I regretted giving up those 3 levels of casting as I only ended up with 7th level spells at lvl20, but I did give up casting for other PrCs as well so it could have been better, but I picked up other SLAs from those classes too. I ended up with Fighter2/Cleric4/Battlesmith2/Divine Agent6/ElementalWarrior3/Radiant Servant of Pelor3 or something like that, beast of a melee cleric with a spreadsheet of SLAs. (Started the game as a cleric of Grumbar, by late levels the group was working for Pelor helping stomp out a revolution started by a handful of lesser evil deities)

As far as straight optimization, I Was thinking Cleric of Sertrous (Envy and Time) into Divine Agent. I don’t think you’ll gain enough from that level of fighter to justify losing another caster level to get into Divine Agent 1 level earlier. Time domain gets you Improved Initiative for free, Haste as your DA3 godly gift, you’ll get Magic Jar and Wish from Envy as your 6 and 9 SLAs. Technically Sertrous offers all domains, so you could go Envy and Death/Undeath if you wanted to.

I was thinking Divine Agent would be great for a gestalt build where you can make up the off levels of cleric with a theurge on the other side of the build.

[AvatarVecna]

I was thinking Divine Agent would be great for a gestalt build where you can make up the off levels of cleric with a theurge on the other side of the build.

Minor nitpick: I can't recall if theurge is officially banned in gestalt, or if it's just that 99.99% of DMs that run gestalt don't allow it, but it's worth mentioning that it probably won't be allowed to work with a theurge class. Technically, dual PrCing at all is definitely banned in official gestalt rules (although conversely, most DMs seem to ignore that, so who knows).

Gestalt is still definitely making this more viable in general, though. It could definitely be staggered with a cleric progression, at the very least. Something like:

Cleric//Fighter
Cleric//Fighter
Cleric//Fighter
Cleric//Fighter
Cleric//Divine Agent
Fighter//Divine Agent
Cleric//Divine Agent
Fighter//Divine Agent
Cleric//Divine Agent
Fighter//Divine Agent
Cleric//Divine Agent
Fighter//Divine Agent
Cleric//Divine Agent
Fighter//Divine Agent

[bean illus]

There's basically no way to cheat around BAB +4 or K (Religion) 7 ranks as prereqs so lvl 4 is the earliest - and that requires a full BAB class that has K Religion as a class skill and 2nd lvl spells by lvl 4, which doesn't exist by default.


Mystic Ranger with Apprentice Philosopher?

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Fair enough. I’ve seen gms allow theurges as long as you only progress caster level only once at each level, but RAW is RAW.

[Thurbane]

I'm pretty sure I has a build stub in case this was ever an IC ingredient...hang on.

Here we go: Paladin of Tyranny 3/Hexblade 4/Divine Crusader 3/Divine Agent 10. I can't remember exactly where I was going with that build...mainly a melee based build that gets Wish.

Obviously NOT focused on early entry, though.

Is there any way for an Illumian Paladin 4 to get his 1st level spell to count as a 2nd level spell? Or a Paladin using DMM Heighten?

[Zombulian]

Obviously NOT focused on early entry, though.
Is there any way for an Illumian Paladin 4 to get his 1st level spell to count as a 2nd level spell? Or a Paladin using DMM Heighten?

Both of those should work just fine, no?

[Troacctid]

I actually included it in the prestige class section of my warmage handbook, although I only rated it at 2 out of 5 fireballs.


[2 levels] Grants a bonus domain at 1st level. Also has an improved chassis. That's pretty much it. Not the best use of a lost caster level plus whatever feat cost, IMO.

[10 levels] If you take the class further, you can get extremely powerful things at higher levels. Every 3rd level, you get one of your domain spells of your class level or lower as a 1/day SLA, which can dodge xp costs. At 10th level, you get gate as an SLA as well, again with no xp cost. Not bad, but it's no thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu.

[magicalmagicman]

Mystic Ranger with Apprentice Philosopher?

I can't find it. It's not online anywhere. Gonna take a little more effort for me to check it out.


I’m kinda shocked your taking my tip and running with it. Beyond SLA shenanigans, Divine Agent is considered bad because of its 5/10 caster level progression, hence no optimizers.

My thoughts kinda agree with the fighter/Cleric entry, actually had one in my last campaign, only took Divine Agent through lvl6 though. Ended up grabbing Haste and Permanancy as my SLA’s via the Time domain. I regretted giving up those 3 levels of casting as I only ended up with 7th level spells at lvl20, but I did give up casting for other PrCs as well so it could have been better, but I picked up other SLAs from those classes too. I ended up with Fighter2/Cleric4/Battlesmith2/Divine Agent6/ElementalWarrior3/Radiant Servant of Pelor3 or something like that, beast of a melee cleric with a spreadsheet of SLAs. (Started the game as a cleric of Grumbar, by late levels the group was working for Pelor helping stomp out a revolution started by a handful of lesser evil deities)

As far as straight optimization, I Was thinking Cleric of Sertrous (Envy and Time) into Divine Agent. I don’t think you’ll gain enough from that level of fighter to justify losing another caster level to get into Divine Agent 1 level earlier. Time domain gets you Improved Initiative for free, Haste as your DA3 godly gift, you’ll get Magic Jar and Wish from Envy as your 6 and 9 SLAs. Technically Sertrous offers all domains, so you could go Envy and Death/Undeath if you wanted to.

I was thinking Divine Agent would be great for a gestalt build where you can make up the off levels of cleric with a theurge on the other side of the build.

I don't think 1/day Haste is the best use of Godly Gift unless we're using the 5min adventuring day model. It should be something more overpowered.
I'll have to brush up on magic jar shenanigans. Another 6th level spell I think might be good is Geas. No-save dominate monster.

No gestalt. There's not even a need to discuss anything with gestalt. Go wizard and whatever to enter divine agent and just play a tier 1 caster until you hit level 14.


Is there any way for an Illumian Paladin 4 to get his 1st level spell to count as a 2nd level spell? Or a Paladin using DMM Heighten?

Paladin is very tricky. You lose your alignment you lose your spellcasting, and at 8th level Divine Agent your alignment changes to your God's and there are no LG deities with envy. Which means a Paladin can't progress Divine Agent beyond level 8 due to no longer meeting the prerequisites (ability to cast 2nd level divine spells). So close.


I actually included it in the prestige class section of my warmage handbook, although I only rated it at 2 out of 5 fireballs.

Yeah, I agree. Don't think it's good for warmage.

[Thurbane]

Paladin is very tricky. You lose your alignment you lose your spellcasting, and at 8th level Divine Agent your alignment changes to your God's and there are no LG deities with envy. Which means a Paladin can't progress Divine Agent beyond level 8 due to no longer meeting the prerequisites (ability to cast 2nd level divine spells). So close.

That's why my IC stub was Paladin of Tyranny (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny). :smallwink:

Also, there's a strong argument that PrCs only check reqs at entry (except those from certain books), so losing casting wouldn't disqualify you from the PrC.

Finally, isn't Garl Glittergold LG, and offers the Envy domain? Can't cite a source for that, other than the one in my sig - maybe an issue of Dragon granted him that domain? Yep, double checked: Dragon issue 323, where the "Seven Deadly Sins" domains were first introduced, I believe... Oops, Garl is NG, not LG.

[magicalmagicman]

That's why my IC stub was Paladin of Tyranny (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny). :smallwink:

Also, there's a strong argument that PrCs only check reqs at entry (except those from certain books), so losing casting wouldn't disqualify you from the PrC.

I know that losing benefits of PrCs when no longer meeting the requirements only applies to PrCs in certain books, but I thought the inability to advance a PrC you no longer meet the prerequisites was a universal rule.

Doesn't matter though. Those paladin variants definitely solve the problem. Sharess, goddess of hedonism, is probably the easiest CG envy deity to roleplay. Sertrous is CE for the Paladin of Slaughter for all domains.

So the only iffy part is using heighten spell for early entry, but this is an optimization thread so of course it works.

Alright, so I need to look up Mystic Ranger, and we need a Paladin/Divine Agent strategy that can carry the character to level 13!

[bean illus]

Mystic Ranger is Dragon Magazine #336 page 105, so it might be out. Type this in your search bar, 3.5 dnd mystic ranger molivero

Apprentice is a feat from Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 176.

[magicalmagicman]

Mystic Ranger is Dragon Magazine #336 page 105, so it might be out. Type this in your search bar, 3.5 dnd mystic ranger molivero

Apprentice is a feat from Dungeon Master's Guide II, p. 176.

Found it, added to the first post. Apprentice is to get knowledge:religion as a class skill correct? Knowledge Devotion is also a possibility.

[Saintheart]

For what it's worth, Cleric 1 with Moderate depravity of out of Heroes of Horror could take Mad Faith which then makes you capable of casting 2nd level divine spells, and then take 4 levels of Fighter or any other full-BAB class. Not sure that this helps.

Duskblade 5 with Southern Magician (Shining South) could pull it off too, and Divine Agent would continue to advance arcane spellcasting. Duskblade even has Knowledge (Religion) on its class list. The only tricky part is that you can't take Southern Magician until you can cast 2nd level spells, which means Duskblade 5 where there's no convenient feat slot right to hand, but at least it retains full BAB.

[Endarire]

The Primary Contact feat (which requires the Favored feat, and each is from Cityscape) grants you +1 skill rank. Use that to get in early if you can.

[Bphill561]

If Forgotten realm's Deities are open, Glar Glittergold is Lawful good with the Envy domain. I think he is neutral good in core, but that maybe a way to swing the Paladin build away from UA if access is denied. Although technically I thought the envy domain was assigned to deities in dragon magazine 323, is there a listing of deities with sinful domains in a published WOTC book?

Going into dragon magazine territory, there is also the customize domain feat in dragon #325. This one is a bit of a stretch because it technically allows you to select one of your cleric domains and alter the spells on it based on a theme. Although pre-req's for the feat just state you need at least one domain; and while you are not a cleric, the Envy domain is a cleric domain that you have. There are example domains which don't include Envy, but it could allow you to alter the domain spells if you want something not on the Envy list (especially if you only have one domain) for your first two spell-like abilities.

More dragon magazine stuff. There is also the Sculpt Self feat from dragon #304 with the illustrious prestige races. The feats lets you craft yourself, basically spending more xp than normal in place of gold. It comes up in optimization every so often because some of the sculpts give you spell casting. Not a spell-like ability, but the actual ability to cast a spell. The premade Mineral focus's second sculpt gives you the ability to cast Soften Earth and Stone as a druid once a day. The first craft is 900ish xp and the second is 3200ish xp to unlock this ability (it gives you more stuff too). So a character could have this kind of xp to craft the second ability at level 4, before getting into level 5 territory (and you will make up the xp with the standard xp reward system). Additionally the Divine agent advances spell casting, not specifically divine spell casting. Another way to enter as a duskblade, or any full BAB class. Note the feat also talks about making your own custom sculpts, so you might be able to make something up more useful or get more mileage out of the feat later. Sculpt Self has no pre-req's.

Edit: One more feat, Heretic of the Faith from Powers of Faerun. It requires divine spellcasting or a Patron deity. It allows you to select a domain not normally allowed by your deity among other things. Strap on the envy domain to any desirable Deity for various Variant Paladin Alignments or to get the combination of Domains you want on your cleric. Nice roleplaying too, start your own heretical order.

[magicalmagicman]

For what it's worth, Cleric 1 with Moderate depravity of out of Heroes of Horror could take Mad Faith which then makes you capable of casting 2nd level divine spells, and then take 4 levels of Fighter or any other full-BAB class. Not sure that this helps.

It doesn't. Sorry. If you're gonna need 5 class levels, it's better to grab 4 cleric levels than 4 fighter levels.


Duskblade 5 with Southern Magician (Shining South) could pull it off too, and Divine Agent would continue to advance arcane spellcasting. Duskblade even has Knowledge (Religion) on its class list. The only tricky part is that you can't take Southern Magician until you can cast 2nd level spells, which means Duskblade 5 where there's no convenient feat slot right to hand, but at least it retains full BAB.

Same here. Only reason to not go cleric4 is if you can entire Divine Agent 1 level earlier.


The Primary Contact feat (which requires the Favored feat, and each is from Cityscape) grants you +1 skill rank. Use that to get in early if you can.

Why am I just learning about this feat? Myriads of PrC's bottleneck is their skill rank requirement!


More dragon magazine stuff. There is also the Sculpt Self feat from dragon #304 with the illustrious prestige races. The feats lets you craft yourself, basically spending more xp than normal in place of gold. It comes up in optimization every so often because some of the sculpts give you spell casting. Not a spell-like ability, but the actual ability to cast a spell. The premade Mineral focus's second sculpt gives you the ability to cast Soften Earth and Stone as a druid once a day. The first craft is 900ish xp and the second is 3200ish xp to unlock this ability (it gives you more stuff too). So a character could have this kind of xp to craft the second ability at level 4, before getting into level 5 territory (and you will make up the xp with the standard xp reward system). Additionally the Divine agent advances spell casting, not specifically divine spell casting. Another way to enter as a duskblade, or any full BAB class. Note the feat also talks about making your own custom sculpts, so you might be able to make something up more useful or get more mileage out of the feat later. Sculpt Self has no pre-req's.

This is interesting. I'll look into it.


Edit: One more feat, Heretic of the Faith from Powers of Faerun. It requires divine spellcasting or a Patron deity. It allows you to select a domain not normally allowed by your deity among other things. Strap on the envy domain to any desirable Deity for various Variant Paladin Alignments or to get the combination of Domains you want on your cleric. Nice roleplaying too, start your own heretical order.

omg I can't believe I forgot about this feat! This is my favorite FR feat! It's basically one giant "f*** you" feat that lets you essentially play a deityless cleric in Faerun!

Yup, yup, definitely gonna use this feat to overcome all roleplay restrictions and pick the most mechanically superior alignment and deity.

[Zombulian]

Not really a build about getting free wishes, but I was inspired by the free Animate Dead idea.
Paladin of Tyranny 4/Divine Agent 3/Bone Knight 2/Divine Crusader 2/Bone Knight 8
With Mad Faith or Eldritch Corruption you can enter at level 4. Divine Crusader lets you grab Desecrate. Sword of the Arcane Order lets you grab Command Undead. You have native Rebuking as well as Bone March.
Just thought it was kinda a cool way to do a necromancer as a partial caster.

[Menzath]

Hum, so you get three godly gifts, and it looks like you want to have high level spells before you get any of them.
So early entry into divine agent does not seem that important. But, getting early access to high level spells seems to be the key.
So maybe fighter1/cleric4/prestige paladin 2/mystic theurge X
Using the feat sword of the arcane order to qualify for theurge.

And you don't really need the second level of prestige paly, but figured it would be nice to snag divine Grace. If you keep prestige paly 2, by 11 you have 7th level spells. If you only take 1 level of it, then by 11 you can cast 8th level spells.

Either way there's enough room to finish with 9 levels of divine agent, the first route godly gift is limited to 7/8/9 spells, the second it's 8/9/9 spells.
I personally would only take 6 levels of divine agent, that would free up a few other levels for more fun and diversity in case you wanted to add a little something to the build.

[Zombulian]

Hum, so you get three godly gifts, and it looks like you want to have high level spells before you get any of them.
So early entry into divine agent does not seem that important. But, getting early access to high level spells seems to be the key.
So maybe fighter1/cleric4/prestige paladin 2/mystic theurge X
Using the feat sword of the arcane order to qualify for theurge.

And you don't really need the second level of prestige paly, but figured it would be nice to snag divine Grace. If you keep prestige paly 2, by 11 you have 7th level spells. If you only take 1 level of it, then by 11 you can cast 8th level spells.

Either way there's enough room to finish with 9 levels of divine agent, the first route godly gift is limited to 7/8/9 spells, the second it's 8/9/9 spells.
I personally would only take 6 levels of divine agent, that would free up a few other levels for more fun and diversity in case you wanted to add a little something to the build.

The gift is dependent upon Divine Agent level though, not anything to do with your own spellcasting.

[Menzath]

The gift is dependent upon Divine Agent level though, not anything to do with your own spellcasting.

Ahh, I skimmed over that a bit to fast.

of the divine agents level or lower

I'll have to take another look on my lunch.

[Quentinas]

If a way to enter in the divine agent at level 5 (rather than at level 6) is found it could be interesting combining with the nightstalker from Races of Ansalom because the ghost cohort could cast wish for you so one could obtain (with three cohorts which would have 9 levels of divine agent) 3 wish free for day at level 18 using the three cohorts (well the main character would not have the divine agent class but the cohorts yes)

[magicalmagicman]

Not really a build about getting free wishes, but I was inspired by the free Animate Dead idea.
Paladin of Tyranny 4/Divine Agent 3/Bone Knight 2/Divine Crusader 2/Bone Knight 8
With Mad Faith or Eldritch Corruption you can enter at level 4. Divine Crusader lets you grab Desecrate. Sword of the Arcane Order lets you grab Command Undead. You have native Rebuking as well as Bone March.
Just thought it was kinda a cool way to do a necromancer as a partial caster.

I've never seen anyone use taint rules. But doesn't matter, on to the first post it goes!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Draconian (Vapor) from Bestiary of Krynn p19-20. It has 4 HD of Dragon, so full BAB, and it innately casts as a Mystic 4. The Mystic is a spontaneous divine casting base class in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, it gets access to new spell levels as a Sorcerer. This has a +3 LA, and needs to use a feat to get Kn: Religion, but if you can buy off the level adjustment this should be a good candidate. Granted you're not going to get Divine Agent 10 at a lower ECL than a Cleric 4/ Fighter 1 entry even with buying off the LA, but it's probably the only published monster that can qualify relatively early.

[bean illus]

Why am I just learning about this feat? Myriads of PrC's bottleneck is their skill rank requirement!


Because it's not one feat, it's two, and with fluff restrictions. It IS usable, but unless that's the only thing you need, well it gets costly.



Yup, yup, definitely gonna use this feat to overcome all roleplay restrictions and pick the most mechanically superior alignment and deity.

See? You need another feat already.
Also, bonus domain requisites 9th level spells. Again, doable, but harder than first glance.

[bean illus]

Thinking about it, the real problem is acquiring the domain. There's almost no way to do it without eating a BAB, and once you do that, you might as well go cloistered cleric 1.

By then you might as well go CC 4 / X 1 (+1 bab).
You either eat another bab, or a CL.

Getting to divine agent early doesn't help without the domain(s).

You can Ordained Champion (change the fluff), at 5th. Now you're entry is still 6th, but you have caster level 4, and your bab 4, and you have either 4 domains, or 2 domains and an extra feat. Six levels of divine agent brings CL 7 for divine power, fixing the bab at level 11.

If you flip back to cleric after DA 10 your top caster level is 14th, but that's par for DA.

I think that's the bar to beat. I'm near sure that someone can?

The mystic ranger 9 / cloistered cleric 1 / DA 10 works too.

[Zombulian]

Thinking about it, the real problem is acquiring the domain. There's almost no way to do it without eating a BAB, and once you do that, you might as well go cloistered cleric 1.

By then you might as well go CC 4 / X 1 (+1 bab).
You either eat another bab, or a CL.

Getting to divine agent early doesn't help without the domain(s).

You can Ordained Champion (change the fluff), at 5th. Now you're entry is still 6th, but you have caster level 4, and your bab 4, and you have either 4 domains, or 2 domains and an extra feat. Six levels of divine agent brings CL 7 for divine power, fixing the bab at level 11.

If you flip back to cleric after DA 10 your top caster level is 14th, but that's par for DA.

I think that's the bar to beat. I'm near sure that someone can?

The mystic ranger 9 / cloistered cleric 1 / DA 10 works too.

Granted Domain is the first level ability of the PrC :smallconfused:

[magicalmagicman]

Granted Domain is the first level ability of the PrC :smallconfused:

I'm still tempted to go cleric anyways for the persistent Mass Lesser Vigor. Looking at the Paladin spell list and there's nothing decent to persist.

We should start talking about the strategy that's gonna carry this paladin or cleric to level 13 or 14.

Is ubercharging without pounce really the only option?

[Bphill561]

See? You need another feat already.
Also, bonus domain requisites 9th level spells. Again, doable, but harder than first glance.

The point of the feat is not to get you another domain, it is to add the domain to any deity.

Each option posted so far uses an unusual source.

UA Paladins with alternative alignments requires UA to be allowed in a game. So Illumian with Heighten spell and the correct sigils can get in. (Note dragon magazine has Paladin variants for each alignment).

If UA is out, the feat gives you an option of adding Envy to a Lawful Good Deity. But that pulls in Forgotten Realms campaign specific material. Use the same Illumian with a second feat which can be done.

More weird Illumian following the Forgotten Realms Garl Glittergold, saves a feat but does not make too much sense. Divine metamagic is not really an option with the paladin since turn undead comes in at level 4, so no gnome. Likewise Southern Magician requires more Forgotten realms material.

Dragon magazine as your unusual source makes mystic ranger an option with the proper feat. Or Sculpt Self with any full BAB class, preferably Duskblade because why not get the casting. Or any alignment paladin variants with the customize domain feat to put a good level 3 and level 4 paladin spell on the Envy domain to select (Customize domain can be taken at level 6, still using the Illumian trick)

Dragonlance official third party adds the Dragon build suggested above, improved in UA level buyoff is allowed.

So it is really just about what, if any, unusual source access you have.

Overall though why sacrifice domains and resources to get in 1 level early. Cleric 1, 4 BAB anything lets you pick 3 spells from three different domains. Plus you have to do something with the rest of the day when you are not spending your 6 seconds of free wish glory. I guess there is also Oriental adventure shamans and mystics maybe in dragon lance with domains as well.

Hell you could even go with the Ur-Priest Variant of a dead God. Bard 2/Fighter 1/ Bard 2/Ur-Priest 1/Divine Agent 5/ Contemplative 1/ Divine Agent 5/ Ur-priest 1/ Something 3...

Wish does not come on line until level 16, but you end with 9th level spell casting. You can pull it in a level earlier if you dont want another domain. Sorry I had to add the Ur-Priest to throw in just one more variant rule set. Feel free to mix in domain wizard from UA, spell dancer from Forgotten realms, and Customize domain from Forgotten Realms (edit... err... Dragon magazine) :smallcool:

[Thurbane]

If you can squeeze Apprentice (spellcaster) or Aereni Focus onto a Paladin or other Cha based build, you can have UMD to help carry you through.

[magicalmagicman]

Overall though why sacrifice domains and resources to get in 1 level early.

A level is several months of play time irl. Also needing to survive upto CR12 monsters is easier than needing to survive up to CR13 monsters. Stuff like that.


Wish does not come on line until level 16, but you end with 9th level spell casting.

Why do you need 9th level spellcasting when you have a Wish that makes epic magic items and scrolls for free?

There might be a conflict with Ur Priest. Do Ur Priests follow deities? They're supposed to be stealing divine power from gods like a parasite. I can't find anything prohibiting them from following a deity but... so legally I guess there isn't a conflict.

And you're right about all the current 5th level entry methods being iffy. One requires dragon magazine. One requires DMs to allow early entry with heighten spell. One requires heroes of horror which no DM I know allows since it ends up becoming a power gaming way to get bonus feats. I rarely see a DM not allow UA class variants and flaws so that's not really an issue imo.


If you can squeeze Apprentice (spellcaster) or Aereni Focus onto a Paladin or other Cha based build, you can have UMD to help carry you through.

I just found a huge problem.

The spell-like ability functions as a spell cast by a cleric of a level equal to the divine agent's character level."

So your Godly Gift SLAs are gonna be capped out at CL10. CL10 Wish replicating spells is gonna suck so UMDing scrolls made by said Wish might be mandatory to scale to high levels.

[Saintheart]

Character level =/= class level. I don't think it'll cap out at CL 10, it'll cap out at 20 won't it?

[Thurbane]

If the ability specifically says Character Level, rather than Class Level, then it's all good.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_characterlevel&alpha=C


character level
A character's total level. For a character with levels in only one class, class level and character level are the same thing.

Source: PHB


class level
A character's level in a single class. Class features generally depend on class level rather than character level.

Source: PHB

[Saintheart]

There might be a conflict with Ur Priest. Do Ur Priests follow deities? They're supposed to be stealing divine power from gods like a parasite. I can't find anything prohibiting them from following a deity but... so legally I guess there isn't a conflict.

Put it this way, if your DM is the least bit inclined towards RAI there's very little likelihood that you're going to be able to start worshipping a god or receive a domain after rejecting all of them in order to get into the class to start with. Let alone that the Ur-Priest is stealing divine power from gods, why would a god accept the worship of or grant a domain to a character who is just as likely to just steal the spells he wants off said god?

Still, it's legally RAW, and I suppose you could fluff your way around it by saying that your Ur-Priest only steals spells off gods who are opposed to his deity...

[AvatarVecna]

Put it this way, if your DM is the least bit inclined towards RAI there's very little likelihood that you're going to be able to start worshipping a god or receive a domain after rejecting all of them in order to get into the class to start with. Let alone that the Ur-Priest is stealing divine power from gods, why would a god accept the worship of or grant a domain to a character who is just as likely to just steal the spells he wants off said god?

Still, it's legally RAW, and I suppose you could fluff your way around it by saying that your Ur-Priest only steals spells off gods who are opposed to his deity...

Slight nitpick: Ur-Priest doesn't require you to reject your deity, or any deity. It just requires you to reject ylur dovine casting, the power that flows from your deity to you.

Additional slight nitpick: if your DM is the type to abide by RAI, they prpbably won't let Divine Agent get Wosh as an lA regardless. :p

[bean illus]

Granted Domain is the first level ability of the PrC :smallconfused:

Whoops, thanks.



Is ubercharging without pounce really the only option?

Well, there's the archery option, but it'll burn your feats.

H pbs
1 ps
2 rs
3 wf

4
5 DA
6 craft wand

9 extraordinary craftsman

12 open

Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot give you something at early levels. Mystic Ranger and Craft Wand keep you alive till 13th. ?

Use anklets of translocation to get around till manyshot comes on. With EC wands become super cheap, with 4ths @ 74 gp, and 3rds @ 40 gp. Sell spells to your party members.

I suppose Cleric is still better.

Or Paladin charger, but I don't know them well.

[Zombulian]

I'm still tempted to go cleric anyways for the persistent Mass Lesser Vigor. Looking at the Paladin spell list and there's nothing decent to persist.

We should start talking about the strategy that's gonna carry this paladin or cleric to level 13 or 14.

Is ubercharging without pounce really the only option?

Well, at least with my Paladin build, the real sweetspot is at ECL 7, and then it just sorta compounds from there. Wishes aren’t part of this build though.
Regarding carrying till 7, for very low levels you’re gonna be able to hit things just fine. You can always use your feats for Tripping optimization, or maybe just having a reach weapon and Combat Relfexes + Stand Still. Power Attack should still be there, it won’t be uber but it won’t be bad. Once you hit 6 Sword of the Arcane Order means you can get wands of Wraithstrike and Mighty Wallop and the like.

[magicalmagicman]

Character level =/= class level. I don't think it'll cap out at CL 10, it'll cap out at 20 won't it?

My bad. Phew. That's good.

Ok, so the best SLAs I can come up with are
3: Animate Dead - No other 3rd level spell seems to benefit from being a SLA than Animate Dead. Stuff like Haste is 1/day so not ideal.

6: Awaken Sand - Make yourself a nice little army of Huge Animated Objects that serve you.
Geas was a contender except too many spell resistance or mind affect immunities (protection from x) makes this useless and dangerous because a smart opponent will cast protection of evil against the geassed creature to end your life.
Permanency was also a contender but Divine Agents dont get high enough spellcasting for Animate objects. At least not in time for it to matter.

If you have a better idea please share.


So crunching the numbers for the ubercharger
Illumian Paladin of Freedom worshipping Sharess
2 flaws
1 Heighten Spell
1 Power Attack
1 Leap Attack
3 Mounted Combat
6 Shock Trooper
9 Ride-By Attack
12 Spirited Charge

At 12th level his charge bonus damage is 12 x2 (two-handed) x2 (leap attack) x3 (lance + Spirited Charge) = (using d&d math) 12 x(2 + 2-1 + 3-1) = 12 x5 = +60 damage. I don't think that's enough to one shot CR12 monsters.


So Thurbane suggested we go UMD and just play a spellcaster who can't cast spells himself.
Another method is go the animal handler and just buy animals. At which point we can go pure necromancer

This is a Pure Necromancer build
Human Cleric of Sertrous (I don't know what his dogma is. Kill his enemies on the material plane? Nothing else?)
Domain:Undeath, Sand, Envy
Alignment: CN until level 13 so no evil acts. At level 14 abandon Sertrous since you get to keep your SLAs as an ex-divine agent.
2 flaws
1 Fell Animate
1 DMM:Fell Animate
1 Corpsecrafter
1 Deadly Chill - anti swarm strategy
3 Necromantic Prescence
6 Necromantic Might
9 Practiced Spellcaster
12

Reminds me of the diablo 2 necromancer. Instead of clay golem it's sand "golem".
And at some point there's the UMD an Ice to Flesh scroll to turn ice sculptures into corpses, or Polymorph Any Object to turn even bigger ice sculptures into corpses.



Here's a barbarian ubercharger
Human Barbarian Cleric worshipping Sharess
ACF: Spiritual Totem: Lion
2 flaws
1 Power Attack
1 Leap Attack
1 Extend Spell
1 Persistent Spell
3 DMM:Persistent Spell
6 Shock Trooper
9
12

At 13th level his charge bonus damage is 12 x2 (two-handed) x2 (leap attack) x2 (lance) = (using d&d math) 12 x(2 + 2-1 + 2-1) = 12 x4 = +48 damage. BAB is +10 so two attacks for +96 damage on a target. Might be able to one shot CR12 creatures? Lance with 18 STR would be 1d8+4 = 8.5 on average. With two lance hits thats 17 + 96 = 113 damage.

Yeah no, Glabrezu survives. So still not good enough.

[Saintheart]

Additional slight nitpick: if your DM is the type to abide by RAI, they prpbably won't let Divine Agent get Wosh as an lA regardless. :p

So you're saying the DM probably wouldn't let that wosh? :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[Endarire]

6: Contingency or create undead.

[magicalmagicman]

6: Contingency or create undead.

Isn't create undead worthless?
What spell would you contingency on a half casting PrC? I can't think of any on the top of my head.

[Menzath]

Huh, the only way I've found to qualify as early as possible requires a dragon mag feat.

Alternative spell source from mag 325.

Taking that feat at third level as a cha stacked paladin, and your first level feats being magical training(sorcerer) and precocious apprentice at first(either by being a human, or taking a flaw).

That would allow you to take your first DA level at 5th. That would leave you 6 levels to... Finish with legacy champion? According to epic prestige class progression that would net you two more godly gifts at lvls 17 and 20.
Sadly you would have to rely on the single granted domain and heretic of faith feat for only two domains. Also sad that domains do not go higher than 9th level spells since you would have an effective DA level of 15.

[magicalmagicman]

So that's it? Subpar ubercharger or pure necromancer?

Ok, I guess that's it then. Feels a little anti-climactic.

[AvatarVecna]

So that's it? Subpar ubercharger or pure necromancer?

Ok, I guess that's it then. Feels a little anti-climactic.

It's a half-caster PrC. Up until you potentially get a 9th lvl SLA that reshapes what is possible, you're just a worse cleric.

EDIT: Like, I haven't checked, but my guess would be that you could make a not-entirely-useless hyper-focused healbot out of a Divine Agent too. It wouldn't be as good as a straight cleric doing the same thing, and arguably it's not a good thing to aim for, but because you have 10th lvl casting at 15th lvl, that's still ten more caster levels than the fighter has so you'll contribute just fine unless it's a T1 party.

[Bphill561]

A level is several months of play time irl. Also needing to survive upto CR12 monsters is easier than needing to survive up to CR13 monsters. Stuff like that.

Why do you need 9th level spellcasting when you have a Wish that makes epic magic items and scrolls for free?

There might be a conflict with Ur Priest. Do Ur Priests follow deities? They're supposed to be stealing divine power from gods like a parasite. I can't find anything prohibiting them from following a deity but... so legally I guess there isn't a conflict.

And you're right about all the current 5th level entry methods being iffy. One requires dragon magazine. One requires DMs to allow early entry with heighten spell. One requires heroes of horror which no DM I know allows since it ends up becoming a power gaming way to get bonus feats. I rarely see a DM not allow UA class variants and flaws so that's not really an issue imo.



Put it this way, if your DM is the least bit inclined towards RAI there's very little likelihood that you're going to be able to start worshipping a god or receive a domain after rejecting all of them in order to get into the class to start with. Let alone that the Ur-Priest is stealing divine power from gods, why would a god accept the worship of or grant a domain to a character who is just as likely to just steal the spells he wants off said god?

Still, it's legally RAW, and I suppose you could fluff your way around it by saying that your Ur-Priest only steals spells off gods who are opposed to his deity...



Hell you could even go with the Ur-Priest Variant of a dead God. Bard 2/Fighter 1/ Bard 2/Ur-Priest 1/Divine Agent 5/ Contemplative 1/ Divine Agent 5/ Ur-priest 1/ Something 3...

Wish does not come on line until level 16, but you end with 9th level spell casting. You can pull it in a level earlier if you dont want another domain. Sorry I had to add the Ur-Priest to throw in just one more variant rule set. Feel free to mix in domain wizard from UA, spell dancer from Forgotten realms, and Customize domain from Forgotten Realms (edit... err... Dragon magazine) :smallcool:

First off, the original post talked about taking animate dead as another spell-like ability. That is not in the Envy domain, so at some point there was the consideration of another domain which was not available in any following builds (unless the customize domain feat came in from Dragon mag, but even that requires the spell to be on one of your lists). So sure if the original poster changed his mind and wanted no other domains, than early entry is great. Otherwise that was why I listed Heretic of the faith to make your own domain combination if he still went cleric or wanted a Envy on a Lawful good Deity for Paladin sans UA.

Second you are not going to have months of play in real life if you are creating epic magic items to overcome every obstacle at level 13.... You better enjoy your even more months of playing the character before that point (Not implying this is the original posters intent).

Third, the Ur-Priest has a whole section under adaptation about worshipping a dead deity or one that has lost godhood due to the lack of worshipers. Hence the highlighted section and mentioning of more variant rules sets. Although this is not listed as an optional rules set in Complete Divine, but as another good uses of the PrC. This is one of the rare times I think you can say it is RAI and RAW since they stated it as an option right in the book. And seeing how you are a agent of the weaken/dead deity, there can be others about for you to met qualification for divine agent entry (which you are not really guaranteed under any build).

Fourth, you may want to be able to do something when you are not using your one wish SLA a day even if you expect to have every item in the game for free. Not saying there is anything wrong with the Paladin or Duskblade entry, but a full cleric casting spell-list can also have its appeal.

Lastly it seems a little strange you mention DM's are unlikely to allow free feats from Hero's of horror but free UA flaw feats (especially since most people take flaws that don't effect them heavily). I have played with 6 DM's, only one allowed UA class but not feats from flaws. 4 of them allowed dragon magazine content. 1 was PHB only and no multiclassing. There are no standard games which I believe is why the poster said throw in Dragon magazine even though it was not available to him. We are just trying to get as many options out there as possible.

[magicalmagicman]

First off, the original post talked about taking animate dead as another spell-like ability. That is not in the Envy domain, so at some point there was the consideration of another domain which was not available in any following builds (unless the customize domain feat came in from Dragon mag, but even that requires the spell to be on one of your lists). So sure if the original poster changed his mind and wanted no other domains, than early entry is great. Otherwise that was why I listed Heretic of the faith to make your own domain combination if he still went cleric or wanted a Envy on a Lawful good Deity for Paladin sans UA.

I will most likely go cleric if I do play this character because animate dead is a lot more fun than fail ubercharge.


Second you are not going to have months of play in real life if you are creating epic magic items to overcome every obstacle at level 13.... You better enjoy your even more months of playing the character before that point (Not implying this is the original posters intent).

I'll probably use it for free Simulacra of high hd creatures rather than epic magic items.


Third, the Ur-Priest has a whole section under adaptation about worshipping a dead deity or one that has lost godhood due to the lack of worshipers. Hence the highlighted section and mentioning of more variant rules sets. Although this is not listed as an optional rules set in Complete Divine, but as another good uses of the PrC. This is one of the rare times I think you can say it is RAI and RAW since they stated it as an option right in the book. And seeing how you are a agent of the weaken/dead deity, there can be others about for you to met qualification for divine agent entry (which you are not really guaranteed under any build).

Weakened/dead deities don't grant domains which defeats the purpose of having a deity.


Lastly it seems a little strange you mention DM's are unlikely to allow free feats from Hero's of horror but free UA flaw feats (especially since most people take flaws that don't effect them heavily). I have played with 6 DM's, only one allowed UA class but not feats from flaws. 4 of them allowed dragon magazine content. 1 was PHB only and no multiclassing. There are no standard games which I believe is why the poster said throw in Dragon magazine even though it was not available to him. We are just trying to get as many options out there as possible.

That was my experience. All the DMs I played with (the good ones anyways) will readily give flaws and traits as part of character creation. But if you ask a DM if you can intentionally and repeatedly taint/untaint yourself to get the specific nondebilitating and sometimes even beneficial changes (like lich eyes) for free feats, he usually responds with "No, I'm not adding taint to my game."

[Troacctid]

Weakened/dead deities don't grant domains which defeats the purpose of having a deity.
You can do it with the Servant of the Fallen feat, but that requires you to be a cleric anyway.

[Bphill561]

You can do it with the Servant of the Fallen feat, but that requires you to be a cleric anyway.

Ha, you beat me to it. Yeah, in that case the cleric class plus feat is granting the domain. And Heretic of the Faith lets you draw on a domain that your Deity does not have, so that is clearly not coming from the Deity (unless the deity is trying to upsurp a domain). The Ur-Priest variant says the normal Ur-Priest steals but the variant worships a forgotten god (although the class itself does not grant domains). Plus PHB core lets you worship ideals which you completely make up, gaining domains deity free. So depending on your campaign setting, some of the domain granting is partially mechanics instead of completely deities.

Although you got me on the Godly Gift part with Divine Agent, but maybe you were just successful and the God is returning.




That was my experience. All the DMs I played with (the good ones anyways) will readily give flaws and traits as part of character creation. But if you ask a DM if you can intentionally and repeatedly taint/untaint yourself to get the specific nondebilitating and sometimes even beneficial changes (like lich eyes) for free feats, he usually responds with "No, I'm not adding taint to my game."

Sorry, I lost track of the original poster who I turned out to get quoting. Maybe I should limit my late night posts.

Edit: I broke the quote script, fixed.

[Quentinas]

Using a dead deity is not possible for the special of the divine agent, or at least probably is not possible , because to gain the first level of the divine he needs to complete a quest assigned by the deity so if the deity is dead how can give a quest? Even the part about the peaceful contact is more difficult if the deity is dead

[Bphill561]

Using a dead deity is not possible for the special of the divine agent, or at least probably is not possible , because to gain the first level of the divine he needs to complete a quest assigned by the deity so if the deity is dead how can give a quest? Even the part about the peaceful contact is more difficult if the deity is dead

Unless of course it is a forgotten deity still alive, given to you before the deities death (maybe with the hopes of resurrection), a long lost quest not completed before the deities death, or maybe Midnight giving a quest to Mystra's former Choosen on her behalf. Maybe I am roleplaying too much.

So I guess if you are going animate dead for Level 3, create undead at level 6 follows the necromancy theme. Velsharoon has both the Undead and Envy domain. He also has pride which is quite handy if you are not taking Heretic of the Faith to pull in a custom domain choice. I don't think you can do better than the Time domain already mentioned by a previous poster.

Its a shame the Marshal is not full BAB, that would have been a great add on in place of Fighter.

[Quentinas]

If it is a forgotten deity still alive is not a problem (well one should ask how do you know that deity ), but in the other case ( i don't remember midnight and mystra) the problem would be having a peaceful encounter (except if the quest will resurrect the god but is quite difficult), and in one case i'm not sure that could work (basically the deity has to give you a quest it doesn't seem that you can take a suspended quest from long time ago) , but as is roleplaying probably could be done in some ways , if the DM is cooperating obviously