Is the famous dragon-slaying shivering touch-approach to dragon-slaying worthless?

[Aharon]

So, in the thread about dragon-slaying, Khedrac reminded us (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24461883&postcount=6) that dragons are immune to paralysis.

The SRD condition summary says (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)


Ability Damaged
The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. Lost points return at a rate of 1 per day unless noted otherwise by the condition dealing the damage. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious. Ability damage is different from penalties to ability scores, which go away when the conditions causing them go away.

Does that mean that a dragon with Dexterity 0 can happily fight on, and isn't paralyzed?

[DeTess]

The wording in the DMG is different, stating that a character at dex 0 simply can not move at all and is helpless.

[Aharon]

The wording in the DMG is different, stating that a character at dex 0 simply can not move at all and is helpless.

That's for strength. For dex, it says paralyzed.

[DeTess]

That's for strength. For dex, it says paralyzed.

I was referring to the DMG, not the SRD.

[Malphegor]

Eh if nothing else its ranged attacks (spells) are going to have garbage attackrolls now, so it’s going to focus on its breath and melee, which while dragons are often decent at and is kind of the key bits for Main things Dragons Do, isn’t as powerful.

[Aharon]

I was referring to the DMG, not the SRD.

Yes, I checked my DMG, it's the same there.


Eh if nothing else its ranged attacks (spells) are going to have garbage attackrolls now, so it’s going to focus on its breath and melee, which while dragons are often decent at and is kind of the key bits for Main things Dragons Do, isn’t as powerful.

That's a -5 to attack roles - almost doesn't matter given their high BAB.

[RSGA]

Yeah, the SRD is doing that as shorthand. The text in the DMG makes it clear that the difference between Str 0 and Dex 0 is if you're lying on the floor or standing motionless in rigid. In either case you're helpless with no reference to paralysis.

[DeTess]

Yes, I checked my DMG, it's the same there.

That's pretty odd, because my DMG doesn't refer to paralysis at all, nor do the errata mention a change.

[Aharon]

Yeah, the SRD is doing that as shorthand. The text in the DMG makes it clear that the difference between Str 0 and Dex 0 is if you're lying on the floor or standing motionless in rigid. In either case you're helpless with no reference to paralysis.

Could you please provide a page reference? My DMG explicitly refers to the effect of Dex 0 as "paralyzed" in the condition summary on Page 300.

[DeTess]

Ah, on page 289, under 'ability score loss' it's described without referring to paralysis.

[RSGA]

Yeah, I got beat to it by DeTess, so I'll just give this one from the next page as a probably less than practical way of getting around Blindsight if your theoretical dragon has upgraded its Blindsense to that. Vacuum. Probably on or around it, because if you're invisible and in vacuum, that's probably where the dragon's next AoE is going.

[Aharon]

Ah, on page 289, under 'ability score loss' it's described without referring to paralysis.

Hm... The Intro to the Chapter says


This chapter has three parts: Special Abilities, Condition Summary, and The Environment. Throughout the game, you'll find references to special abilities of all kinds - rays of energy, life-numbing touches, and the ability to become insubstantial, to name a few. This section identifies the most significant abilities and provides details on how to use them and what they look like.
Following this section you can find a comprehensive summary of character conditions, such as panicked, paralyzed, and helpless. If a character falls victim to any sort of debilitation or strange effect, refer to that condition's listing for how to handle the situation.
Finally, perils of the environment such as drowning, and the effects of heat and cold are covered in the closing section.

The bolded part implies that the description in the condition summary takes precedence.


Yeah, I got beat to it by DeTess, so I'll just give this one from the next page as a probably less than practical way of getting around Blindsight if your theoretical dragon has upgraded its Blindsense to that. Vacuum. Probably on or around it, because if you're invisible and in vacuum, that's probably where the dragon's next AoE is going.

Good one, haven't seen that used in any adventures, IIRC :biggrin:

[AvatarVecna]

Um. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)


Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

The condition summary says that creatures at Dex 0 are paralyzed. And let's say that's true. But it's not the only thing they are. They're also, separately from being paralyzed, incapable of moving, and helpless.

I mean also unrelated to any of that, dragons aren't immune to the paralyzed condition, they're immune to paralyzing effects...but that's things like Hold Monster, where the effect itself is paralyzing you. A dragon is still paralyzed at Dex 0 because that's not an effect, that's an inherent property of the Dexterity stat.

EDIT: I'd imagine that, maybe for this exact reason, a mechanic giving actual immunity to the paralyzed condition is basically nonexistent.

[Aharon]

Um. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)



The condition summary says that creatures at Dex 0 are paralyzed. And let's say that's true. But it's not the only thing they are. They're also, separately from being paralyzed, incapable of moving, and helpless.

I mean also unrelated to any of that, dragons aren't immune to the paralyzed condition, they're immune to paralyzing effects...but that's things like Hold Monster, where the effect itself is paralyzing you. A dragon is still paralyzed at Dex 0 because that's not an effect, that's an inherent property of the Dexterity stat.

EDIT: I'd imagine that, maybe for this exact reason, a mechanic giving actual immunity to the paralyzed condition is basically nonexistent.

Since the DMG wasn't written with linguistic accuracy in mind, "condition" and "effect" are used pretty much interchangeably:



This section describes the adverse conditions that weaken, slow or even kill characters. If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If certain effects can't combine, apply the most severe effect. For example, a character who is dazed and confused takes no actions whatsoever (dazed is more severe than confused). The confused character might want to attack a random charackter, but he can't because he's dazed.

[AvatarVecna]

Since the DMG wasn't written with linguistic accuracy in mind, "condition" and "effect" are used pretty much interchangeably:

I'm not sure you want to argue "designer intent" as part of your "Dex 0 isn't that bad" conclusion.

[Aharon]

I'm not sure you want to argue "designer intent" as part of your "Dex 0 isn't that bad" conclusion.

Uh.. I don't? It is generally bad, but not for monsters - or characters - immune to paralysis.
(By the way, constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead are immune against paralysis, not only paralysis effects).

Edited to Add:
I stand by my reading being the correct one before October 2007 :smalltongue:
I just looked into the rule compendium, and there, ability damage is described completely seperately, without reference to the "paralyzed" condition.

[DeTess]

Uh.. I don't? It is generally bad, but not for monsters - or characters - immune to paralysis.
(By the way, constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead are immune against paralysis, not only paralysis effects).

Can you show the text that says that the rules on DMG page 289 can be ignored then? You could definitely make the argument that the creatures is also paralyzed, but without something saying that that text is not actually rules text, it'll be hard to overrule it. Especially if you're trying to argue that the summary trumps the thing it summarizes.

[Psyren]

Since the DMG wasn't written with linguistic accuracy in mind, "condition" and "effect" are used pretty much interchangeably:

You can't really start a rules lawyer thread and then try to say the DMG doesn't have "linguistic accuracy." Of course it doesn't, that's the whole genesis of your attempt to go around the rules here :smalltongue:

What we do know though is that there is no contradiction between the condition "paralyzed" and the effect "unable to move and helpless." Since you can be both, trying to determine which section of the DMG takes precedence is irrelevant. Even if the dragon is immune to one, the other still applies.

[Necroticplague]

So, in the thread about dragon-slaying, Khedrac reminded us (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24461883&postcount=6) that dragons are immune to paralysis.

The SRD condition summary says (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm)



Does that mean that a dragon with Dexterity 0 can happily fight on, and isn't paralyzed?

1. Immune to paralysis effects, not paralysis. Big distinction. Heck, based on the entry and some syntactic ambiguity, you can argue they're only immune to magic paralysis effects, so nonmagical paralysis sources (like poisons) could still work on them.
2. Not in any useful way. They aren't just paralyzed: they're paralyzed, unable to move, and is helpless. These are each seperate conditions. The one we care most about is helpless for that lovely CdG vulnerability, but being unable to move limits them in their actions as well.

[Aharon]

Preface: As I said, the Rules Compendium makes clear Shivering Touch works the way it is regularly used.

The following answers are just because I like having the last word ;-P (Or rather, I would like to better explain how I arrived at my conclusion):


Can you show the text that says that the rules on DMG page 289 can be ignored then? You could definitely make the argument that the creatures is also paralyzed, but without something saying that that text is not actually rules text, it'll be hard to overrule it. Especially if you're trying to argue that the summary trumps the thing it summarizes.

I'm not trying to argue that - the DMG is saying that this is the way it should be done - it explicitly says that the relevant rules text is not in the abilites, but in the condition summary.


You can't really start a rules lawyer thread and then try to say the DMG doesn't have "linguistic accuracy." Of course it doesn't, that's the whole genesis of your attempt to go around the rules here

What we do know though is that there is no contradiction between the condition "paralyzed" and the effect "unable to move and helpless." Since you can be both, trying to determine which section of the DMG takes precedence is irrelevant. Even if the dragon is immune to one, the other still applies.

Well, no - if one section takes precedence, and says the result of having Dex 0 is being paralyzed, and the other section says it's being helpless and unable to move, the one that takes precedence should be taken as the relevant one.


1. Immune to paralysis effects, not paralysis. Big distinction. Heck, based on the entry and some syntactic ambiguity, you can argue they're only immune to magic paralysis effects, so nonmagical paralysis sources (like poisons) could still work on them.
2. Not in any useful way. They aren't just paralyzed: they're paralyzed, unable to move, and is helpless. These are each seperate conditions. The one we care most about is helpless for that lovely CdG vulnerability, but being unable to move limits them in their actions as well.

1. I don't think there was such a distinction. Dragons got the immunity to paralysis effects during the change from 2nd to 3rd edition. There were no non-magic effects that caused paralysis, and the 3.0 Dungeon Master's Guide has the following entries:



ABILITY SCORE LOSS
Various attacks cause ability score loss, either temporary ability damage or permanent ability drain. Points lost to temporary
damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets total rest) to each damaged ability, and the
spells lesser restoration and restoration offset temporary damage as well. Drains, however, are permanent, though restoration
can restore even those lost ability score points.
Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such
reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.
A full hit point score, however, can’t drop to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.
The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures
do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attacks or natural weapons



Ability Damaged: The character has temporarily lost 1 or more ability score points. These points return at a rate of 1 per day.
Ability damage is different from effective ability loss, which is an effect that goes away when the condition causing it goes
away. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character
with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is unconscious.
Ability Drained: The character has permanently lost 1 or more ability score points. The character cannot regain these points
through natural healing or the passage of time. A character with Strength 0 falls to the ground and is helpless. A character with
Dexterity 0 is paralyzed. A character with Constitution 0 is dead. A character with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma 0 is
unconscious.

So back then, a dragon was supposed to be immune to the paralysis resulting from ability damage/drain, in my opinion. The 3.5 DMG muddled that up, and the 3.5 Rules compendium created clarity in the other direction.

[Psyren]

Well, no - if one section takes precedence, and says the result of having Dex 0 is being paralyzed, and the other section says it's being helpless and unable to move, the one that takes precedence should be taken as the relevant one.

The problem is that "precedence" is only relevant when you're dealing with two mutually exclusive situations. Since you can be both paralyzed AND helpless, the concept of "precedence" is irrelevant in this situation.

[Thurbane]

So, in the thread about dragon-slaying, Khedrac reminded us (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24461883&postcount=6) that dragons are immune to paralysis.

Does that mean that a dragon with Dexterity 0 can happily fight on, and isn't paralyzed?

I've seen this point debated extensively, and TBH, the RAW could be read either way.

End of the day, each DM would need to make a ruling for their own table...

FWIW, though, if Rules Compendium is considered the most recent source of RAW, it says this (no mention of paralysis):


Dexterity 0 means that a creature can’t move at all. It stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.