Ectoplasmic Creation and Trapmaking

[Segev]

Ectoplasmic creation (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/ectoplasmic-creation) (and, I presume, minor creation, though I haven't checked) permits the creation of "complex items" with a Craft check. Pathfinder helpfully provides some relatively detailed rules for trapmaking (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps) but the actual Craft DC boils down to a CR table, with CR up to 5 having a Craft DC of 20. High, but not insurmountable for, say, a dedicated Psion (who have Craft as a class skill). 18 Int is certainly doable at level 1 with some effort, and 20 if you push it. +4 from a single rank in the skill, and you're looking at +8 or +9, which is 45% to 50% chance of success.

Provided you're careful about your choice of traps (to stay within the "organic matter" and cubic footage requirements), with one minute of effort per trap, a Shaper could theoretically lay a pretty decent trap. With several minutes of effort, he could lay a few. They'll only last an hour, but if you're planning an escape route or to lure a fight into a particular area, that could still be useful.

Especially for one who has it as a discipline talent; sure, his duration never improves (unless he also takes it as a normal power), but laying 5 traps in on average about 10 minutes, with the oldest having at most a 50 minute lifespan left, has got to be useful for a first level character!

[Psyren]

Level 1? I'd be hard-pressed to think of a trap that only occupies 1 cubic foot. I'd expect most to be one cube (5x5x5) at a minimum.

The bigger problem though is where you're putting them. Mechanical traps (the only kind you can make) usually involve components that are inside walls/floors/ceilings - places you can't manifest your metacreativity powers into. You can absolutely create those components so they appear on an empty space - but turning, say, a section of floor into a spike trap isn't possible unless you first dig the pit the spikes would go in somehow, and even then you couldn't manifest the trapdoor (hinges etc) into the solid floor. Same with trying to turn a section of wall into a dart trap - you can't put the darts or the firing mechanism into the solid wall, it needs to already be hollowed out.

If you overcome all that then sure, the CR gives you a starting point for the DC, but keep in mind that the GM doesn't have to adhere to that strictly - the rules only require an "appropriate" craft check for the power. The DC to craft it manually fits the bill, but that doesn't cover actually setting the trap - given that you're trying to do that with the same manifestation as creating it, they may very well ask for a markup.

[Segev]

The material you create has to fit in that space, but nothing says it can't be folded or shaped to be larger. The net trap, for instance, could easily be only one cubic foot of rope in terms of material volume (and may even wad up to that shape if you work at it). Laid out on the floor and concealed by whatever dust or other mechanisms normally used to hide such things (for the DC 20 perception check required by the stock version of this trap), and this should be doable. Certainly, a noose (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/ettercap-noose-cr-1) or snare (even with a couple wooden stakes added) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/spiked-snare-cr-1) falls within the volume limit even at level 1.

The javelin and spear traps likely are also feasible, provided "one cubic foot" is volume, not constraining shape. And the language of the power is, "The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per manifester level," not "...must fit into a 1-foot cube." A shortspear (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/ettercap-spear-trap-cr-2) or a javelin (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/javelin-trap-cr-2) is certainly less than one cubic foot of material, even if its length is more than 1.73 feet (the maximum length you can fit within a 1 foot cube, going far corner to far corner).

Given that several of the traps are noted as "used by ettercaps," and a few are said to be rigged up by woodsmen using materials found at hand in the wild, a careful choice of traps should work. Heck, a bear trap (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/bear-traps-cr-1) made out of bone or hardwood would be feasible even on a dungeon floor if you scatter enough concealing debris.

I mean, you're right: these are absolutely considerations you have to keep in mind. This is just a use of the power that seems somewhere between "make the deadliest organic poison possible" and "cute trinket." Some are even explicitly organic. Door spikes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/door-spikes-cr-3) are 4 separate damage sources made of bone. No indication of exactly how they're set up, but you could likely rig a dungeon door with them when you hole up in a room for an 8-hour rest. Heck, you MIGHT be able to get them and the door under 1 cubic foot of material, if you need to fashion a door. I wouldn't count on that, though: you may need to make the door separately. (Of course, with only an hour duration, unless the DM lets you count it as a viable long rest when you keep restoring it every hour, it's not helpful there.)

That said, several of the traps actually use explicitly animal-derived poisons. The headchomper (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/headchomper) could be dropped from behind the lintel of a door onto somebody, and explicitly uses centipede venom. The toxic stair spikes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/toxic-stair-spikes-cr-2) might take some creativity to conceal on steps, but a false step concealing them is probably doable, and the poison on them is huge scorpion venom, which gets nasty.

You're definitely not digging pits, or creating huge swinging logs, or large statues with swords that they can swing out to vivisect anybody who tries to walk between them, but there are still viable options.

Not really useful for "overnighting" until level 8 (level 4 if you're an elf), and even then that's only if you're using power points on it. But a level 1 Shaper using his Discipline Talent to do it "for free" still gets an hour duration out of them, so surely, there are ways to make the ability to quickly rig an area into a killzone useful.

[Psyren]

The material you create has to fit in that space, but nothing says it can't be folded or shaped to be larger. The net trap, for instance, could easily be only one cubic foot of rope in terms of material volume (and may even wad up to that shape if you work at it). Laid out on the floor and concealed by whatever dust or other mechanisms normally used to hide such things (for the DC 20 perception check required by the stock version of this trap), and this should be doable. Certainly, a noose (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/ettercap-noose-cr-1) or snare (even with a couple wooden stakes added) (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/spiked-snare-cr-1) falls within the volume limit even at level 1.

The javelin and spear traps likely are also feasible, provided "one cubic foot" is volume, not constraining shape. And the language of the power is, "The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per manifester level," not "...must fit into a 1-foot cube." A shortspear (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/ettercap-spear-trap-cr-2) or a javelin (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/javelin-trap-cr-2) is certainly less than one cubic foot of material, even if its length is more than 1.73 feet (the maximum length you can fit within a 1 foot cube, going far corner to far corner).

I don't disagree, though I then would wonder how many javelins (or spikes etc) you could actually get into that volume, and whether you could make enough of them to actually create the relevant trap at level 1. (The folded net and snare/lasso I don't have problems with though.)


Given that several of the traps are noted as "used by ettercaps," and a few are said to be rigged up by woodsmen using materials found at hand in the wild, a careful choice of traps should work. Heck, a bear trap (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/bear-traps-cr-1) made out of bone or hardwood would be feasible even on a dungeon floor if you scatter enough concealing debris.

I mean, you're right: these are absolutely considerations you have to keep in mind. This is just a use of the power that seems somewhere between "make the deadliest organic poison possible" and "cute trinket." Some are even explicitly organic. Door spikes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/door-spikes-cr-3) are 4 separate damage sources made of bone. No indication of exactly how they're set up, but you could likely rig a dungeon door with them when you hole up in a room for an 8-hour rest. Heck, you MIGHT be able to get them and the door under 1 cubic foot of material, if you need to fashion a door. I wouldn't count on that, though: you may need to make the door separately. (Of course, with only an hour duration, unless the DM lets you count it as a viable long rest when you keep restoring it every hour, it's not helpful there.)

That said, several of the traps actually use explicitly animal-derived poisons. The headchomper (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/headchomper) could be dropped from behind the lintel of a door onto somebody, and explicitly uses centipede venom. The toxic stair spikes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/toxic-stair-spikes-cr-2) might take some creativity to conceal on steps, but a false step concealing them is probably doable, and the poison on them is huge scorpion venom, which gets nasty.

Door Spikes are a good example of one that I'm not sure would work here. The spikes are inside the door until triggered - how are you conjuring anything in there? Or are you making the whole door, and then attaching it to... what? This is even worse for Stair Spikes. The Bear Trap should work as that is a standalone device, but it seems to me that creating and "scattering enough debris to conceal it" would be separate actions at a minimum.


I mean, you're right: these are absolutely considerations you have to keep in mind. This is just a use of the power that seems somewhere between "make the deadliest organic poison possible" and "cute trinket."
...
You're definitely not digging pits, or creating huge swinging logs, or large statues with swords that they can swing out to vivisect anybody who tries to walk between them, but there are still viable options.

Not really useful for "overnighting" until level 8 (level 4 if you're an elf), and even then that's only if you're using power points on it. But a level 1 Shaper using his Discipline Talent to do it "for free" still gets an hour duration out of them, so surely, there are ways to make the ability to quickly rig an area into a killzone useful.

I do understand what you're going for and take my naysaying in a spirit of trying to refine your idea. I think the essence of your strategy - that mechanical items/moving parts can be Created using the "complex" guideline - is quite doable. Mechanical traps just have the additional complication of, for the most part, being located inside of other things. This isn't an issue when you're building and setting them normally, but when the thing you're putting them in already exists (e.g. a feature of a dungeon) and you're trying to magically (or psionically) conjure them in the space of a few seconds - especially conjuring them as being "set" and ready to fire - those issues can become larger problems.

I do think there are simple traps this would work for, stuff that sits on a surface like a snare as mentioned above.

[Segev]

Rearranging the order of your post a bit so my response makes sense; I hope you don't mind.



I do understand what you're going for and take my naysaying in a spirit of trying to refine your idea. I think the essence of your strategy - that mechanical items/moving parts can be Created using the "complex" guideline - is quite doable. Mechanical traps just have the additional complication of, for the most part, being located inside of other things. This isn't an issue when you're building and setting them normally, but when the thing you're putting them in already exists (e.g. a feature of a dungeon) and you're trying to magically (or psionically) conjure them in the space of a few seconds - especially conjuring them as being "set" and ready to fire - those issues can become larger problems.

I do think there are simple traps this would work for, stuff that sits on a surface like a snare as mentioned above.I do take it in that spirit, and appreciate the help. I agree; the strongest uses (in terms of "strength of argument that they can work") are in things that you can just lie out on the surface. Snares, bear traps, etc.

Just for clarity: are you counting a full minute as "a handful of seconds?" Because (sadly, for some applications) ectoplasmic creation has a manifestation time of "1 minute," so you're actually taking a full minute to set these traps. Which is one reason why the trapmaking function is actually pretty cool: it's one thing that normally takes much longer, with a few exceptions. And requires sometimes expensive or hard-to-find-in-the-environment materials. But I do want to verify whether "a handful of seconds," as you use it here, meant you were picturing this as a one-round activity, or was taking into account the full minute manifestation. And how much difference that makes, if any, to your perception of it.

Going to address a couple more specifics before venturing into brainstorming territory:


I don't disagree, though I then would wonder how many javelins (or spikes etc) you could actually get into that volume, and whether you could make enough of them to actually create the relevant trap at level 1. (The folded net and snare/lasso I don't have problems with though.)Because it's one attack roll and one damage roll, and only one target, I was actually under the impression that the javelin and spear traps were a singular projectile/stabbing implement jabbing out into the space where the trigger would make you expect a target to be. Probably about thigh-high on a human, so it'd clip a gnome or halfling in the shoulder or head.

I can see the alternative, now that you allude to it, that it's actually several javelins or spears being jutted out, so now I'm not sure.

There are several traps that I don't know the details of, because they're in books I don't have and what's in the PFSRD is pure mechanics with little description. It's weirdly mixed, too: some do have descriptions while others do not.

I'm very curious what the bone box (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps/bone-box) actually is, for instance.


Door Spikes are a good example of one that I'm not sure would work here. The spikes are inside the door until triggered - how are you conjuring anything in there? Or are you making the whole door, and then attaching it to... what? This is even worse for Stair Spikes. The Bear Trap should work as that is a standalone device, but it seems to me that creating and "scattering enough debris to conceal it" would be separate actions at a minimum.Door spikes are an example of one I wasn't sure what it looked like. I could see it being bones inserted between the slats of the door such that ramming your shoulder into it shoves you into the spikes, for example. And yeah, one of the ways I thought of this would be on a hallway or non-sealed doorway, put the whole door in place with the spikes there. Using it to give your camp room in the dungeon a bit of privacy, if you will. Though again, "camping" with these only works when you get to at least 4th, probably 8th level, because your duration just won't cut it until then.


Now, for some deeper brainstorming, design, and speculation:

The stair spikes might work where this wouldn't work so well on level ground if you effectively make a false step over them. Perhaps easier to notice than the default perception DC, due to the step being shallower/higher than expected (depending on which way you're approaching it), but the unwary just step down onto the step and the false step acts the way a more built-in trapped step would, compressing and letting the bone spike caltrops through. Essentially, the false step cover serves as a concealment for the caltrops.

People can carefully navigate caltrop-laden areas, but a bear trap designed to look like a bunch of caltrops strewn about, with the trigger spot in the middle of the actual spring-loaded part disguised to look like flooring, might catch people stepping carfully as they carefully step into the "open" part that is the trigger.

I think the snare+stakes and the net trap are probably the best go-tos for most purposes, though: they capture the target and thus keep them from participating in any fights or chases for a round or two, and can certainly be rigged to make noise as well if you need them as protection while distracted rather than as something to which you're luring victims.


Other than, "Street urchin gang has a psion kid who rigs up the alleyway through which they make their escape," though, I'm having trouble thinking of ways to really solidly make use of it. Lots of rigging up retreat paths and then running through them after angering dungeon monsters, I guess?

[Psyren]

I was thinking of a 1 round manifestation, but the fact that it takes longer to manifest doesn't change my view. The mechanics of creating or manifesting the trap aren't the problem as I see it (and you could probably optimize that down to a round anyway if you really wanted to) - rather, the physical structure/location are.

Yes, you're correct that many trap entries are pure stats with no fluff. However, we can make inferences about their structure from two facts: (1) they're designed to be hidden until activated, so they must be at least somewhat seamless with the surface they're made for, and (2) they're most often designed to trigger from normal activities (e.g. just touching a door will trigger door spikes, including opening it normally, rather than only the less intuitive act of shoulder-checking that door - because its entry says that the trigger is "touch.") Combining those two facts, I can conclude that something like door spikes are built into the door, which makes manifesting them into an existing door seem unlikely if not impossible, as would manifesting a pre-trapped door into the middle of a hallway.

Whether you can envision other structures for certain traps (like the "false step" suggestion for stair spikes) is going to come down to convincing your GM so I won't spend a ton of time on those. I will say that manifesting something that is part of an existing object or attached to an existing object would, in general, be something I personally would question, but yours might feel differently.

[Segev]

Agreed, the things that will work most universally are ones that can just be laid out. The trick then is figuring out how to conceal them so their Perception DCs make sense. Which is, again, somewhat more about the description to justify it than it is about mechanics, though you don't want to carry that too far.

Hiding the rope-snare is one thing. The false step is more...involved, and less likely to pass muster with a DM. Not impossible, but I would be less surprised if it were rejected.

I haven't actually delved into custom trap design; I have just been eyeballing the CR 1-5 premades. It takes some care not to be overly cheesy while still making it useful.

[Psyren]

Agreed, the things that will work most universally are ones that can just be laid out. The trick then is figuring out how to conceal them so their Perception DCs make sense. Which is, again, somewhat more about the description to justify it than it is about mechanics, though you don't want to carry that too far.

I mean, mechanically it does make sense that you have to do something extra to hide them. After all, even if the power can create all the components you need for a trap, nothing in it says it can set one for you - any more than being able to craft a longbow means you're any good at archery.

That doesn't mean they're not useful even when out in the open however; seeing a bear trap doesn't mean you can just stroll through its square.

[Segev]

I mean, mechanically it does make sense that you have to do something extra to hide them. After all, even if the power can create all the components you need for a trap, nothing in it says it can set one for you - any more than being able to craft a longbow means you're any good at archery.

That doesn't mean they're not useful even when out in the open however; seeing a bear trap doesn't mean you can just stroll through its square.

True.

Kinda weird that "normally" the spot DC is just part of the trap, so part of the crafting thereof, but you'd need to "do something extra" to hide it, here. I guess it'd be a Stealth check? Or a separate Craft check (you are "crafting camouflage").