If a vampire becomes a lich does (s)he lose any vampiric abilities/powers? 3.5 D&D

[eyebreaker7]

If a vampire becomes a lich what is he? Does he lose any vampiric stuff? I don't see any rules that say this can't happen.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Lich:

"Lich" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the base creature), provided it can create the required phylactery.

Vampire:

The creature’s type changes to undead (augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid).

A Vampire is no longer a Humanoid, and thus cannot become a Lich unless they're no longer a Vampire (i.e. they get resurrected or similar).

[eyebreaker7]

But what about the part saying "augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid"? It's still saying (s)he's humanoid. Or am I misinterpreting it?

[Afghanistan]

If a vampire becomes a lich what is he? Does he lose any vampiric stuff? I don't see any rules that say this can't happen.

Biff already answered your question, but now I have a question for you: Why? Why would you want to be both of these at the same time, when they, as templates, are largely non-complimentary and entirely redundant to one another if your goal is immortality?


But what about the part saying "augmented humanoid or monstrous humanoid"? It's still saying (s)he's humanoid. Or am I misinterpreting it?

The augmented subtype (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#augmentedSubtype) does not in anyway impact you mechanically, it is just a denotation for what you are now and what you were.


A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

You could actually arguably get both if, as your first level feat, you had taken Human Heritage, which would reset your type to Humanoid (human) after you got the first template, letting you qualify for the second template. This does require a DM that agrees you still qualify for the feat after becoming undead.

However, as others have said, there's little point in having both templates. Maybe if you're going for Vampire Lord/Dry Lich to be the most immortal immortal ever to immortal?

[eyebreaker7]

To answer the question of why, the character in question is currently a vampire sorcerer but wants MORE power which a lich has. Other added abilities and such.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I guess they could take the Human Heritage feat in Race of Destiny, but then they would lose most of the undead benefits, even after becoming a lich.

[Afghanistan]

To answer the question of why, the character in question is currently a vampire sorcerer but wants MORE power which a lich has. Other added abilities and such.

So, from a roleplay perspective? That is pretty cool. Have fun my guy. :smallsmile:

From a min/max perspective? I'd honestly just drop the 910 gold just to NOT be a Vampire. The +8 Level Adjustment is just unbearable. If your DM waved it off or is using the Inevitable's LA assignment thread as a guideline for the Vampire (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22477494&postcount=564) (the former more desirable than the latter), you're in for a hell of a time :smallbiggrin:

Personally, I'd just STAY a Vampire if it is hand waved, and research a spell to protect me from the Sun or take Endure Sunlight from Libra Mortis: The Book of Undead. Being a Lich is overrated if you ask me.

What does your build look like? What is your goal, and what do you want to be able to do by what level?

[Rater202]

IIRC, the only RAI way for a Vampire to become a Lich is by taking 20 levels of the Death Master Class: The Capstone ability grants you the Lich Template and explicitly says 1: That it applies even if you're Non-Humanoid and 2: That
Already undead death masters gain the lich's benefits listed under armor class, special attacks, turn resistance, damage reduction, abilities, and skills. These granted abilities stack with any the undead death master already possessed.Which I'm pretty sure is literally everything in the template.

Of course, by RAW that includes the Lich's LA so if this is a character advancing normally not only is twenty levels a hell of an investment(though it's a prepared full with several powers over the Undead and Animate Dead as a second level spell is nothing to sneeze at.) but that last one is going to severely impact the ability to gain more power in the future.

Though, RAW is that a Vampire who became a Lich this way isn' actually a Lich, they just have the powers of one, so it would have the added benefit of you still being able to pass as living.

[eyebreaker7]

Well upon re-reading I noticed the 1st line in the vampire entry which says "Vampires appear just as they did in life," and part of the entry of the lich says "A lich can cast any spells it could cast while alive." so I guess this will do to change his mind :)

[Jay R]

This will be decided by the DM, and not all DMs will rule the same way.

[Noxangelo]

dread necro 20 also comes with lichdom

[AlanBruce]

To answer the question of why, the character in question is currently a vampire sorcerer but wants MORE power which a lich has. Other added abilities and such.


A vampire, just like a lich, is an immortal being. Barring a bunch of nosey murderhobos actively wanting to destroy you, a vampire has as much time as a Lich to study in his or her lair for centuries.

This would translate into the vampire attaining more levels. Maybe even going into a prestige class. There are way too many to mention here for arcane casters, but again- when Time is not an issue, a vampire can devote a few decades (not even centuries) and still come out on top as an apex undead arcane predator.

And he'd have nothing to envy from a lich.

Also, many assume that lich = undead wizard. That's not true. A lich is an 11th level caster, with wizard and sorcerer being the more common examples, but not the only ones. In fact, if you look at the SRD for both vampire and lich, the former gets a lot more perks than the latter, starting with ability score increases.

From a RAW perspective, you can't have a vampire lich- the rules say you cannot. But if we're talking about a lich's iconic powers- spellcasting- these can be replicated easily by a vampire.

[Rater202]

dread necro 20 also comes with lichdom

Yeah, but it's not a viable option in this scenario.

For one, the class feature explicitly says that you don't get it if you're not a humanoid, so it wouldn't work if you're already undead.

For two, by Raw you don't actually get the Lich template, you merely have your type change to undead and gain a Phylactery(with a statement from one of the writers of HoH confirming that this was the intent) and since you don't gain the template your phylactery by rules as written doesn't do anything at all. You could start the game result sooner and more cheaply with the Necropolitian template.

Some of the DN's earlier class features have similar effects to a Lich's powers, but not to the same degree as the template and if you're already undead then some of those become dead levels.

Truth be told, while 4-8 levels of DN can be a great base chassis for a build focused on Necromancy spells, the class itself is kind of suboptimal for it's intended purpose of "Anti-hero or villain who leads a big army of the undead and slowly becomes a Lich," which kind of sucks becuase it was my favorite class up until I realized this.

[ShurikVch]

Well, if we look at the everything which was called "vampire" in the game, not all of it would be Undead:

Aberration:
Fire Vampire
Star Vampire
Vampiric Ixitxachitl

Animal:
Vampire Bat

Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid:
Sharjani (Pseudo-Vampires)
Half-Vampire
Katane

Plant:
Vampire Cactus
Vampire Rose Bush

Also, there are Savage Progressions for Lich (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) and Vampire (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a); Lich becomes Undead only at 4th level (of 4 total), and Vampire - at 7th (of 8); so, if one of progressions is incomplete...