Gestalts and balance.

[Clistenes]

I have been taking a look to 2nd edition-style multiclassing and the similar 3rd edition gestalt variant rules.

I have been wondering how overpowered would such a character be, compared to single-classed characters, if the gestalt character had to divide all xp earned between both classes.

I know there are like a thousand threads about gestalt characters, but I haven't seen this particular bit discussed...

For the sake of clarity, I will write how I think gestalt progression would be better handled (a gestalt of only two classes):

Hit Dice: Use the higher dice among both classes.
Armor proficiencies: All armor proficiencies from both classes.
Weapon proficiencies: All weapon proficiencies from both classes.
Tool proficiencies: All tool proficiencies from both classes.
Saving Throw proficiencies: Pick any two among the saving throws from both classes. If both classes share a saving throw, that must be picked.
Skill proficiencies: As many skill proficiencies as the class that has most among the two. These class skills can be picked among all the skill proficiencies available to either class.
Starting equipment: Pick any combination of items from the starting equipment from both classes, but its total value must be equal or lower than the value of the starting equipment of one of the classes.
Proficiency bonus: As a single classed character.
lvl 1 to 4: proficiency bonus +2
lvl 5 to 8: proficiency bonus +3
lvl 9 to 12: proficiency bonus +4
lvl 13 to 16: proficiency bonus +5
lvl 17 to 20: proficiency bonus +6
Ability score improvement: Choose one class. The character will obtain the ability score improvement from that class only.
Class features: All class features from both classes.
Subclass features: All features from both subclasses.
Cantrips: The character knows the cantrips from both classes.
Spells known: The character gets the known spells from both classes. Each spell's DC uses the spellcasting ability modifier from the class it comes from (so a Wizard/Cleric would cast Magic Missile using their Intelligence Modifier, but would cast Cure Wounds using their Wisdom Modifier).
Spell slots: Choose the spell slots per level table from one of the classes.

As for class progression, if the gestalt character divides the xp among both classes in order to advance, this is how it would compare to a single classed character.



Single classed character's level
Gestalt character's level
XP


1
1
0


2
1
300


2
2
600


3
2
900


3
3
1800


4
3
2700


4
4
5400


5
4
6500


5
5
13000


6
5
14000


7
5
23000


7
6
28000


8
6
34000


8
7
46000


9
7
48000


10
7
64000


10
8
68000


11
8
85000


11
9
96000


12
9
100000


13
9
120000


13
10
128000


14
10
140000


15
10
165000


15
11
170000


16
11
195000


16
12
200000


17
12
225000


17
13
240000


18
13
265000


18
14
280000


19
14
305000


19
15
330000


20
15
355000


20+1 Epic Boon
16
390000


20+3 Epic Boons
17
450000


20 + 5 Epic Boons
18
530000


20 + 8 Epic Boons
19
610000


20 + 11 Epic Boons
20
710000



So, looking at this... and taking into account that the gestalt will have 1 to 5 HD less than the single-classed character, and that their proficiency bonus will be 1 lower than the single-character most of the time, and that the gestalt character would most likely be MAD'der than the single classed one... How do you think do single-class characters and gestalt characters compare?

At first glance, and taking into account that most classes are front-loaded and that the gestalt keeps the highest High Dice, it seems to me the gestalt's advantages are worth the slower rate they get spells and class features...

What kind of xp penalty would you give the gestalt characters in order to keep the game balanced?.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If I remember correctly, in 3.5 the rule of thumb was that a gestalt character was comparable to a normal character of two levels higher-- much beyond that, and your wider breadth of abilities isn't enough to compensate for the higher level spell slots and extra attacks and suchlike that the normal character can bring to bear.

[Clistenes]

If I remember correctly, in 3.5 the rule of thumb was that a gestalt character was comparable to a normal character of two levels higher-- much beyond that, and your wider breadth of abilities isn't enough to compensate for the higher level spell slots and extra attacks and suchlike that the normal character can bring to bear.

True, but almost everything escalated faster in 3.5 than it does in 5e when characters leveled up... BAB, saves, skills, everything...

[Bobthewizard]

I wouldn't mix gestalt and non-gestalt characters in the same game. Either make everyone gestalt or leave it out. Then you don't have to worry about a separate XP system. The rest of your ideas seem fine.

You'll have to play it by ear balancing encounters just like you do with any party.

[Grod_The_Giant]

True, but almost everything escalated faster in 3.5 than it does in 5e when characters leveled up... BAB, saves, skills, everything...
But at the same time, the gestalt combinations in 5e will provide less benefit. In 3.5 being a Cleric//Wizard would get you twice as much spellcasting, for instance; in 5e it just means extra spells known. Everything in 5e progresses at the same rate; a 5e Wizard doubling up with Fighter would get bonuses around the margins (more hit points, weapon/armor proficiencies, more attacks than a non-Bladesinger, etc), but you're not going to get any sort of real numerical advantage. I don't think you'd notice more than a 2-3 level difference in capacity-- a Sorcerer 8/Warlock 2 isn't going to look that much different than a Sorcerer//Warlock 8.

(To be fair, it also depends somewhat on the combination; a Sorcerer//Warlock is going to exceptionally strong, while a Barbarian//Cleric is going to have a lot less synergy).

[Clistenes]

I wouldn't mix gestalt and non-gestalt characters in the same game. Either make everyone gestalt or leave it out. Then you don't have to worry about a separate XP system. The rest of your ideas seem fine.

You'll have to play it by ear balancing encounters just like you do with any party.

Actually, the xp system is very simple: you just need double the xp to level up. Couldn't be easier.

The problem is, is that enough to keep gestalt characters from being too OP?

[KOLE]

Actually, the xp system is very simple: you just need double the xp to level up. Couldn't be easier.

The problem is, is that enough to keep gestalt characters from being too OP?

I really don’t want this to come off as snippy, I’m honestly just curious, but why run Gestalt if you’re worried about OP builds?

[Lord Foul]

Actually, the xp system is very simple: you just need double the xp to level up. Couldn't be easier.

The problem is, is that enough to keep gestalt characters from being too OP?

If you need twice the XP to level, then why not just do the same class combo normal
Like a wizard 5/fighter 5 will have almost twice the HP as a wizard//fighter 5 gestalt

[DeTess]

If you need twice the XP to level, then why not just do the same class combo normal
Like a wizard 5/fighter 5 will have almost twice the HP as a wizard//fighter 5 gestalt

Because twice the xp =/= twice the level.

[Greywander]

What kind of xp penalty would you give the gestalt characters in order to keep the game balanced?.
Well, the first question is how you intend to handle gestalt characters. I've seen people trying to complicate the gestalt process when there's already a really simple method of handling a character with more than one class: the multiclass system. Now, this does have certain issues, like characters getting basically double HP and HD, but if you're going to design a gestalt system, the multiclass system seems like a good place to start.

Not sure how helpful it will be to you, but here's an older doc where I go over several different ways one could handle gestalt characters:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M1klFB07A7zeulumCZ6jqyd2XM8qkk2LaMVfC0sk_UY/edit?usp=sharing

But, that's not the question you ended your post on. You're wondering about an XP penalty, presumably so that players need to make a tactical choice of whether or not to gestalt. In that case, you might be interested in a different, though related homebrew I've made. The basic goal was to rework the multiclass system to work like a gestalt, allowing you to choose how many "extra" levels you wanted, but at an XP cost. Here's the skinny of how it works:

Your character level is always the same as your highest level in any single class.
"Multiclassing" does not raise your character level, therefore it doesn't increase the XP required to level up again.
"Multiclassing" is when you level up and gain a level in any class except your highest level class.
Your proficiency bonus still scales with your character level.
You have a number of hit dice equal to your character level, the best of those available to your collective class levels.
You get a slight HP bonus when you multiclass, dependent on that class's hit die (this is so the order in which you take levels doesn't matter).
Finally, you can only take on a number of classes equal to your proficiency bonus (unlimited at 20th level).

So let's say you start as a 1st level fighter. You get 300 XP and level up. You could level up fighter again and become a second level character. You would then need 600 XP to level up again*. Or you could level up as a wizard. You would still be a 1st level character, so you'd only need 300 XP to level up again. But now you're 300 XP "behind" everyone who decided to go up to 2nd level.
*XP totals are cumulative in the PHB. It takes 900 XP to reach 3rd level, but that includes the 300 XP you needed to reach 2nd level. Going from 2nd to 3rd only requires 600 XP.

A big thing to note here is that as you level up, it becomes more and more costly to multiclass. When you hit 5th level, your proficiency bonus increases, allowing you to take on a third class, but now you're paying 7500 XP to level up, instead of 300, and you have to raise your levels in the "new" class one at a time (paying 7500 XP each time, unless you go ahead and level up to 6th level where it becomes even more expensive). This gives players the choice of whether to build their character "tall" (i.e. focusing on a single class in order to raise your character level as quickly as possible) or "wide" (i.e. amassing levels in as many classes as possible at the expense of your character level).

I've also accounted for the frontloading of classes, as the same homebrew doc also deals with 0th and 1/2 level characters. These three homebrews are designed to be used either separately or together, which is why they're in the same doc. 0th level is for when you want to start e.g. as commoners with no class levels and earn 1st level. 1/2 level basically splits the features of each class's 1st level into two level, requiring you to level up twice to get the benefits of 1st level in that class. The multiclass rules I wrote up make you pay for 1/2 level in a new class before you get 1st level in that class, drawing out the frontloading of class features.

Anyway, here's the full doc for that:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XkpH63RskT5akra8IpHP2STak2LeeDi7lpc91fc0mXg/edit?usp=sharing

I'm not saying you should do it the way I've written it out here, but that you might hopefully find some inspiration there.

[MrStabby]

So when a single classed character gets their second ASI at level 8 you are looking at two sets of level 6 abilities?

I can still see this being pretty damn powerful, especially if you are not needing the stats to multiclass. Look at something like a vengeance paladin swashbuckler - your baseline damage is very high and you get a really broad range of utility and support abilities as well.

Or how about an arcane trickster and a primary caster? Ok, its higher level, but magical ambush with high level spells? Probably worth enduring the overlap on in casting spells.

Barbarian warlock using something like fiend pact for temp HP would more than offset the loss of hit dice and the ability to scale armour of agathys whilst progressing barbarian is powerful.

Whilst I think you would be enabling more powerful builds I dont think you are too far off a working system (although it will be very complicated). Choices are not easy.

[Clistenes]

I have checked how it would look if the gestalt needed thrice as much xp in order to level up. It looks quite weak...



Single-classed character

Gestalt (thrice as much xp to level up)

XP



1

1

0



2

1

300



3

2

900



4

3

2700



5

3

6500



5

4

8100



6

4

14000



6

5

19500



7

5

23000



8

5

34000



8

6

42000



9

6

48000



10

6

64000



10

7

69000



11

7

85000



12

7

100000



12

8

102000



13

8

120000



14

8

140000



14

9

144000



15

9

165000



15

10

192000



16

10

195000



17

10

225000



17

11

255000



18

11

265000



18

12

300000



19

12

305000



20

12

355000



20

13

360000



20+2 Epic Boons

14

420000



20+4 Epic Boons

15

495000



20+7 Epic Boons

16

585000



20+10 Epic Boons

17

675000



20+14 Epic Boons

18

795000



20+18 Epic Boons

19

915000



20+23 Epic Boons

20

1065000

[Cybren]

But at the same time, the gestalt combinations in 5e will provide less benefit. In 3.5 being a Cleric//Wizard would get you twice as much spellcasting, for instance; in 5e it just means extra spells known. Everything in 5e progresses at the same rate; a 5e Wizard doubling up with Fighter would get bonuses around the margins (more hit points, weapon/armor proficiencies, more attacks than a non-Bladesinger, etc), but you're not going to get any sort of real numerical advantage. I don't think you'd notice more than a 2-3 level difference in capacity-- a Sorcerer 8/Warlock 2 isn't going to look that much different than a Sorcerer//Warlock 8.

(To be fair, it also depends somewhat on the combination; a Sorcerer//Warlock is going to exceptionally strong, while a Barbarian//Cleric is going to have a lot less synergy).

Warlock//Another spellcaster seems to stand out in that it's the only combination that would effectively multiply your total number of spell slots- especially with mystic arcanum at higher levels, meaning eventually you will functionally have two 9th level slots compared to everyone else getting one.

[Mimersbrønd]

I am not gonna do a take on whether or not you should mix gestalt and non-gestalt, cause you are gonna do you and I respect that :)

But I would recommend, for balance purposes, that the saving throws has to be chosen by 1 of the 2 classes.

There is a reason why every class has a strong and a "weak" saving throw proficiency and given the opportunity to take 2 strongs instead is something I would say is a bit too advantages for the gestalt's

strong saving throws = Dex, Con, Wis
weak saving throws = Str, Int, Cha

ofcourse, there are very terrible things that could happen if you are hit by spells or effects that requires the weak saving throws, like feeblemind i think is int save and most if not all banishment spells are cha save based. But the strong saving throws are the most common ones used, that is why they are strong, in the sense that they are gonna be used more :)