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Stormcrow
2007-10-25, 12:22 AM
I've played a bit of shadowrun. I play 3rd ed. And in the upcoming game I'm the face of the group and also one of the "primary" combattants. I'm trying to steer clear of the essanceless cybermonster idea. So does anyone have any advice on how to build a decent face/fighter in Shadowrun?

Hasivel
2007-10-25, 12:40 AM
Hmm, Shadowrun is basically a dual powers system, magic on one side and cybernetics on the other. With the appearance of the social adepts even the field of the face is basically ruled by the magicians and cybered folk who have pheremones. If you try to play without dipping into either pool you will be at a disadvantage but here's what you can do:

First, buy a load of contacts. As in dozens. Don't try to get high level ones, just spam first level contacts. Then when your group needs something you'll be able to roll your reasonably high pool of etiquette dice over and over until the law of averages gives you the successes you need to get it. Cybered and magical folks can't usually afford to do this since they're spending money/points on magic or cyberware.

Second take advantage of those edges and flaws if your GM will let you. There's a lot of good ones, stacking "Friendly Face" and "Good Looking and Knows It" can give you a very nifty -3 to TNs on social tests with the opposite sex and -2 with the same sex. Make the majority of your contacts the opposite sex to take advantage of this. Buying that Great Dragon missile launcher is way easier if your TN is 5 instead of 8, and you get to reroll your etiquette skill eight times for eight contacts to try to hit that 5.

Combat's going to be a lot harder to pull off. You can't use a really tough race because they tend to have low charisma. I'd suggest finding a way to use your social skills to get really good equipment not normally available at Chargen as quickly as possible to make up for your relatively weak body (compared to the cybered troll I mean). Frankly if you're going to do any combat with a firearm at all a smartlink is probably required.

It's pricey on build points, but the connected edge will let you sell starting equipment at full price, then buy more equipment the same way. But the GM is likely to look askance at you selling all your stuff in the opening seconds of the game in order to buy stuff you couldn't have.

Winterwind
2007-10-25, 06:08 AM
Also, in order to avoid the essence-less part rendering your character cold and unfeeling, switch to bioware for everything where bioware can replace cyberware. You won't be able to do without a smartlink for a fighter, but you can do without Wired Reflexes if you use a Synaptic Accelerator instead. It's costly, yes, but that's the price of keeping your soul. :smallwink:
(Of course, it has the further disadvantage of not being allowed at character creation - but maybe you can talk your gamemaster into allowing it nevertheless)

Swordguy
2007-10-25, 06:12 AM
[placeholder for until I get to work and can give you a better answer]

What books are allowed? Do you have a race preference? Is your character built already or are you going from the ground up? What's the assumed power level in the campaign?


EDIT:

Okay, I've got some time now.

Doing a combat character/face isn't all THAT hard in low to medium-power games. It's tough in high-power campaigns, because the numbers of contacts you need to buy will eat into cyber/bioware money.

I'm assuming the following: mid-power campaign (runners are badass, but not cracked-out assault cannon-as-a-sidearm badass), you have access to Cannon Companion and the cyberware book (Man & Machine), and you are NOT using edges and flaws (in my experience, many GMs don't).

You're going to want lots of skills, decent attributes, and lots of cash. I suggest the following Priority breakdown:

A: Money (1 million NY)
B: Attributes (27)
C: Skills (30-ish)
D/E: Race and magic

Now, I'd suggest human as your race. It's tough to find races that give you good combat and social bonuses - elves are an obvious answer, but the Body loss and priority C makes them a non-factor. With human, you're not getting big bonuses, but you're not actively penalized either. The extra karma dice you'll get for being human will also help a LOT. Don't be afraid to use them - they're your primary bonus for being a normal.

You want 6's in Intelligence and Quickness (for extra skills, reaction and combat pool), and a 5 or so in Charisma, at a minimum. You can probably get away with 3's in Strength and Willpower, and a 4 in Body. Depending on how paranoid you are about magic, switch Body and Willpower around.

For skills, get pistols and two other weapons of choice: preferably 1 heavy weapon and 1 longarm (submachinegun, assault rifle, or shotgun). Get a moderate pistol rank (4ish) and specialize in 1 type (I can't recommend the Ares Predator enough here - and make sure to tell your GM that specialization in "Predator" includes all the Ares Predator variants - they're the same pistol with different "extras"). For your longarm (probably what you're going to be using most of the time) get 6 ranks, and specialize if you feel like it. Get your heavy weapon at 3 or so - you're looking for basic proficiency here, so you can do backup work if your dedicated heavy weapons guy (read: ork or troll) goes down. This take about 13-14 of your startng skill points.

Other skills you should take will include Stealth and Athletics - these are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to any Shadowrunner. Take each at 3 at a minimum. Next, go for your "face" skills. Negotiation and Etiquette are a must - and should start at a rank equal to your Charisma. That's almost certainly going to do you for character skills. About the only 3 things you're really missing are driving skills, thrown weapons (grenades) and first aid, but since you're a hybrid anyway you should have other group members who can pick up the slack in this area. Losing grenades hurts (stun grenades are AWESOME), but it's something for you to do with karma as you play.

Your extra skills granted by your Intelligence (you should have 30 points if your INT is a 6) are up to you. However, I recommend Small-unit Tactics at the very least, and then location or ethinic knowledges. Being able to relate to the people you're dealing with is very helpful.

Language skills should include English and Japanese - they're the lingua franca of Shadowrun. If you want something else, I suggest either German (there's a LOT of German-oriented stuff in SR, since the game is huge over there) or...Aztec? Whatever it is that the Aztechnology guys speak.

Spending your money. First, have a good excuse to why you have 1,000,000 nuyen. Your GM will love you for it.

Now, go out and grab a dozen contacts at a minimum - I'd recommend 15. That's 75 thousand NY right there. Maybe have 1 or 2 lvl 2 contacts in there - in my experience, contacts at character start should all be lvl 1, and players prefer them being upgraded as a consequence of game play. YMMV.

Cyber and bioware: Find out if your GM is using the Stress rules from Man & Machine. That will significantly mess with a lot of stuff - bioware is a lot less nice when it accumulates Stress - it's tough to get rid of, whereas a cyberlimb can always by tightened up with a screwdriver or some such.

I'd suggest for a mid-powered game getting Boosted Reflexes 2 and a Reaction Enhancer. You're looking to be in the area of getting 2-3 actions a round, so you want an ending init score of around 2d6+10 to 3d6+15. If your starting INT and QUI are both 6, you start with 1d6+6. IIRC, Boosted 2 gives you +1d6/+2, and a Reaction Enhancer gives you +2, so you're good on the low end if you just take those two. Take them as Alphaware and the essence hit is even less (they'll run you about 100k NY combined as Alphaware). As a side bonus, cyberware detectors won't go off on Boosted Reflexes, allowing you to go freely through more places.

Other Alphaware you NEED is a smartlink (I or II, your call) and a radio. That's about it - everything else can be bought as equipment (low-light thermographic IR goggles, gas mask, etc). I'd recommend getting light bone lacing - aluminum or kevlar (kevlar is in Cannon Companion, IIRC). It'll give you some extra Body. If you went with 3 Body during character creation, this is CRUCIAL.

Essence after adding up everything listed above (Boosted 2, RE, Smartlink, radio, kevlar bone lacing) as Alphaware should be around a 3.75ish - which is very high for cybered combat types. I tend to get some nice cosmetic stuff with bioware: the "dont' gain weight" one especially. Remember, your bio index doesn't initially count against your Essence, but it can eventually.

Finally, spending what's left of your money. Have at least 2 safehouses that you don't normally use. Don't let anyone else in the group know about 1 of them. Buy the weapons in which you're skilled and a decent supply of ammo once for each place of residence you own. Buy formfitting armor and clothing armor, as well as the standard combat vest with plates. Remember, the name of the game in Shadowrun is BE SUBTLE. Most of the time, formfitting armor, an armored longcoat and a pistol are all the combat gear you should be carrying. Have equipment for full-blown shootouts, but remember that yuo shouldn't be using them most of the time. In practically every game, the most successful Shadowrun is the one in which you never had to use your weapon.

Last, if you have a mage in the group, save some money and see about giving it to him/her in exchange for magical defense items. They can really be the difference between life and death...

Rasilak
2007-10-25, 07:35 AM
If you don't want to use cyberware at all, it's getting hard. If you're ok with some, i'd recommend Smartlink (II+rangefinder, if you can get your hands on it), datajack, chipjack (or knowsoft link) - it's always good to have fitting knowledge skills, maybe radio, transducer, headware memory and cybereyes (esp for the display link and some stuff to lower vision modifiers - maybe later even retinal duplicate). Tailored pheromons are a must if you don't want to use magic - get them sooner or later. You could use drugs to raise your initiative in the beginning (i'd recommend Jazz, as Kamikaze has some eeevil side effects), but should switch to synaptic accelerator as soon as you get the money. (If you're ok with a 3-4ish essence, you could also take boosted reflexes - not as expensive (essence-wise) as wired reflexes, and A LOT harder to detect.
And, as Hasviel already said: Take 1M and get a friggin lot of contacts - hordes of level 1, some level 2, no level 3 (if you feel like you must have one, let it at least be something REALLY useful, like Fixer or Decker).
For Skills:
Select one weapon (maximum 2) and stick with it. I'd recommend Pistol or Shotgun, maybe Submachine Gun or Rifle.
Stealth, Athletics and Etiquette should be pre-printed on every character-sheet anyway, so there's no way past them. However, Stealth 4, Athletics 2-3 should be enough, but you absolutely have to max Etiquette. Take an Aptitude, if you can get the points, and already have "Friendly Face", "Good Reputation" and "Good looking and knows it".
Negotiation and Interrogation are also a must have, but not as important as Etiquette. However, you should still max them if you can.
Intimidation is quite nice to have, but can usually be substituted by either Negotiation or Interrogation. If you still have points to spare, take it at 4(6) and specialize on the style you like (verbal or physical).
Leadership and Teaching usually are a total waste of time (your team should follow the plans without you rolling for it, and you don't have to teach your team members if you know someone who can).
A computer skill (and a cheap cyberdeck) is quite a nice thing to have, so you can save some money for a decker when making data searches - but leave the real stuff to the pros until you get really good.
And you should be able to use at least one type of vehicle (car or motorbike), but a skill of 2 is totally enough.
You should also take Unarmed Combat (or Cyberweapons, if you really like them), so you're not completely screwed when attacked in meelee.
As a race, i'd stick with Human (average at everything, and more Karma Pool). You might want to consider Dwarf (tougher, and does'nt cost more in the Priority System - unless you use magic), Elf (you'd want high Quickness and Charisma anyway) or Ogre (nearly as strong as an Ork, but without the Charisma penalty).

Winterwind
2007-10-25, 08:00 AM
Unless my Man and Machine has a translation error, Boosted Reflexes are, unlike Wired Reflexes, not incompatible with a Synaptic Accelerator, so you can use Boosted Reflexes (Boosted Reflexes 1 costs only 0.5 essence and gives you one valuable initiative die) until you can add that Synaptic Accelerator (Boosted Reflexes 3 and Synaptic Accelerator 2 is similarly effective as Wired Reflexes 3, yet much cheaper and less essence intensive than Wired Reflexes 3).

Wagadodo
2007-10-25, 09:26 AM
If you want to keep away from the Cybermonster. I would suggest going with adept. Instead of taking the Million Nuyen option you take adept. It will give you six magic points to spend in upgrades to yourself. I always think about getting the level 2 reflex enhancer. Then the rest is pretty much gravy. Do you want to be able to walk around always armed take some killing hands or concentrate on one melee weapon.

If you are going to be the face, make sure you take Ettiquete, Negotiations, and Knowledge skills to help you find out where to get information. If you are going to be playing in a gritty campaign, Knowledge: Drinking Holes, or corporate themed, Knowledge: Drinking holes. In other words know where people hang out so you can go get the information that you need if you don't have the right contacts.

Also figure out if you want to be a ranged fighter or a melee fighter. That will allow to use strength as a your dump stat. *Grins* Dump stat, if you are going to be a ranged fighter don't over do strength, just keep it around the 3's. I would keep your mental stats at four to fives, and your body as high as you can. Quickness I would keep at four to five. Play around with your stats to see what you are comfortable with.

I would just sit down on paper and see what you want to go for, write down the skills you need, then work on your stats, then when you comfortable with that I would look at the money you are able to take. If possible buy a couple contacts, get a decent lifestyle for a couple months, get the cheap car or bike, just don't like one of my players and actually get a scooter... They will never live that down.

Tekraen
2007-10-25, 09:42 AM
You don't necessarily have to go no essence loss, so Tailored Pheremones with the addition of a Smartlink and a bit of the reaction boost as Winterwind suggested would be a good idea. Invest in a good Armored Jacket as well as armored clothing for when you're on meets. To date, I haven't had a Shadowrun character that hasn't used more than a pistol for one run (and the one run he used something else, we were zombie hunting).

Pour all you can in contacts and skills, and just use your karma from runs to beef up the shorts you feel you might have. Keep a point or two in a close-combat skill, but I'd have a better skill with pistols and a heavy pistol+hold out to do my dirty work.

If you want to go whole hog on a close-combat deterrent, I'm reminded of my 4th ed Ork, nicknamed "Colonel Saunders" who was my Face, as well as a beefy Street Sam. Int of only 3, but he knew when to drop a bribe, had enough contacts to find what he needed, and he had a very decked out cyberarm with shock palm, cyberholster, recoil compensator, and a few other bits. That plus his Unarmed skill meant anyone he touched was going down, and his Warhawk was his bit of choice for reaching out and touching someone.

A steady rock in a sea of uncertainty. Good times.

Swordguy
2007-10-25, 09:50 AM
Unless my Man and Machine has a translation error, Boosted Reflexes are, unlike Wired Reflexes, not incompatible with a Synaptic Accelerator, so you can use Boosted Reflexes (Boosted Reflexes 1 costs only 0.5 essence and gives you one valuable initiative die) until you can add that Synaptic Accelerator (Boosted Reflexes 3 and Synaptic Accelerator 2 is similarly effective as Wired Reflexes 3, yet much cheaper and less essence intensive than Wired Reflexes 3).

Boosted 1 only gives you +2 Reaction. You have to take Boosted 2 to get the init die.

Winterwind
2007-10-25, 10:03 AM
Uhh... that's not what my book says.
It says, rather,
Boosted Reflexes 1: Initiative+1
Boosted Reflexes 2: Initiative+1, Reaction+1
Boosted Reflexes 3: Initiative +2, Reaction+2

Which leaves me wondering why anyone would ever consider BR2, but nevermind.

Tekraen
2007-10-25, 10:17 AM
Uhh... that's not what my book says.
It says, rather,
Boosted Reflexes 1: Initiative+1
Boosted Reflexes 2: Initiative+1, Reaction+1
Boosted Reflexes 3: Initiative +2, Reaction+2

Which leaves me wondering why anyone would ever consider BR2, but nevermind.

IIRC, nobody ever did. :smallwink:

Swordguy
2007-10-25, 10:22 AM
REALLY?

Wow...

Mine says:
BR1: +2 RE
BR2: +1d6 Init, +2 RE
BR3: +2d6 Init, +2 RE

Difference between German and American Printings I guess (didn't we find one of thse in MW3 a while back too? Maybe a FASA/FanPro problem). Which leads us to another question:

OP: Whose printing of the book are you using?

Rasilak
2007-10-25, 10:34 AM
Yeah, its probably the old American/German-problem. My books read just like Winterwinds.

Winterwind
2007-10-25, 10:43 AM
Mine says:
BR1: +2 RE
BR2: +1d6 Init, +2 RE
BR3: +2d6 Init, +2 RE

Difference between German and American Printings I guess (didn't we find one of thse in MW3 a while back too? Maybe a FASA/FanPro problem). Which leads us to another question:Yeah, this will be it. Frankly, I find the American version makes much more sense, since all three are much better balanced that way. But it wouldn't be the first time FanPro screwed up like this (in the German version of SR, for instance, firing a weapon in salvo-mode produces only 2, instead of 3 recoil points. Yes, salvoes are horribly overpowered that way.).


OP: Whose printing of the book are you using?Good question. That might be helpful to know.

Iku Rex
2007-10-25, 10:55 AM
You can make a pretty hardcore face with an adept using powers from State of the Art 2064. Kinesics = win.

As for boosted reflexes, I've got

Level 1 +1d6 Initiative
Level 2 +1 reaction/+1d6 Initiative
Level 3 +2 reaction/+2d6 Initiative.

That's Shadowrun 3rd edition (in English), FASA, "corrected 8th printing".

Swordguy
2007-10-25, 10:59 AM
You can make a pretty hardcore face with an adept using powers from State of the Art 2064. Kinesics = win.

As for boosted reflexes, I've got

Level 1 +1d6 Initiative
Level 2 +1 reaction/+1d6 Initiative
Level 3 +2 reaction/+2d6 Initiative.

That's Shadowrun 3rd edition (in English), FASA, "corrected 8th printing".

Hmmmmm..interesting. I've got 2 3rd Edition books. One is the 5th Printing for FASA, and one is the last printing that FanPro did. Both of them have what I listed.

Interesting. I think I'm going to take this over to an email with some of the FanPro guys. It's entirely possible they'll say "who cares, there's a 4th ed now", but who knows?

Stormcrow
2007-10-25, 06:56 PM
Didn't know there were so many Shadowrunner's on these boards...

I'd prefer to keep him human, the tons of contacts makes sense because he has Yakuza connections. I'm not against cyber/bioware I just want him to still look like he's alive so it doesn't ruin his faceness.

I've got printed copies of;
Shadowrun 3
Shadowrun Companion
Man & Machine
Canon Companion
Magic in the Shadows

That I can draw from. Including the alternate character generation systems (points etc.) and my GM does allow/use Edges and Flaws.

With these things in mind would anyone like to re-advise?
I'm the nominal group leader and the other players have asked me to asign them roles within our running crew so I can make sure that there aren't any big gaps.

Also are there any books I don't own for Shadowrun 3 that people think would be good for me to get?

Swordguy
2007-10-25, 07:14 PM
Didn't know there were so many Shadowrunner's on these boards...

I'd prefer to keep him human, the tons of contacts makes sense because he has Yakuza connections. I'm not against cyber/bioware I just want him to still look like he's alive so it doesn't ruin his faceness.

I've got printed copies of;
Shadowrun 3
Shadowrun Companion
Man & Machine
Canon Companion
Magic in the Shadows

That I can draw from. Including the alternate character generation systems (points etc.) and my GM does allow/use Edges and Flaws.

With these things in mind would anyone like to re-advise?
I'm the nominal group leader and the other players have asked me to asign them roles within our running crew so I can make sure that there aren't any big gaps.

Also are there any books I don't own for Shadowrun 3 that people think would be good for me to get?

Grab Good Looking and Knows It and Friendly Face, as previously advised. Other than that, not so much.

Interesting note: when I asked Bob Boyle about what was going on with the Boosted Reflexes, I got the answer. Evidently, Winterwind's version is the correct one - the one I've got was originally included the playtest version of 3rd ed. It was corrected JUST as it went to the printers, but wasn't included in the print run, but was in the next, then not in the next, and so on. Basically, versions with both were printed for a long time, because of the lead delay in the printing process. They didn't quite alternate, but came close. FanPro started printing the incorrect copy first, then corrected it, and so on. However, he also noted that the INCORRECT version is the better balanced for its cost, and follows a more logical progression, insofar as reaction bonuses are considered less than extra init dice. As far as he was concerned, both are valid. *shrug*

As for your group dynamic:

You need, at a minimum, the following roles in a party:
2 Shooters (of which you are one)
1 face
1 combat mage
1 utility mage (buffs, recon, anti-mage work)
1 decker (You should probably make this an NPC if you can help it - decking slows the game down for all non-deckers)
1 driver (can be a rigger, but isn't necessary and I don't recommend the SR3 vehicle rules. This can be as simple as someone with a Drive of 4+ and a minivan - do NOT use a bunch of motorbikes as your primary means of group transport)

Extra Stuff that it's nice to have:
Heavy Weapons Guy
Actual Rigger, drone or otherwise
Combat Decker (can act as a backup to either a shooter or a decker)
Dedicated Medic (shamans can be really good at this)

Winterwind
2007-10-25, 07:16 PM
Didn't know there were so many Shadowrunner's on these boards...This shows our professionalism. It's safer to keep a low profile in order to avoid detection by the corps. :smallwink:


I'd prefer to keep him human, the tons of contacts makes sense because he has Yakuza connections. I'm not against cyber/bioware I just want him to still look like he's alive so it doesn't ruin his faceness.

I've got printed copies of;
Shadowrun 3
Shadowrun Companion
Man & Machine
Canon Companion
Magic in the Shadows

That I can draw from. Including the alternate character generation systems (points etc.) and my GM does allow/use Edges and Flaws.Edges and Flaws, huh? Well, in that case, there is a number of Edges that would be quite benefitial for a face. Just going over the list, Good Reputation and Friendly Face come to mind, and of course that "Good Looking and Knows It" Edge described in the example. Anything boosting your Charisma might also come in handy. (I admit I have little experience with Edges/Flaws, though, since we deemed they had too much potential for abuse/unbalance and banned them)


Also are there any books I don't own for Shadowrun 3 that people think would be good for me to get?As long as noone wants to play a Rigger or a Decker, these should be enough for most purposes. More books expand on your options and provide more background, but those are the fundamental ones.

comicshorse
2007-10-25, 08:01 PM
Why not go for a Shaman ?
It gives you dual use out of your cha. ( summoning and social skills).
Cha spell-lock will make you the most charming around, spirits are great for information gathering and social skills will go better if you massively cheat by using spells.
Last game I ran the groups Face was a Cat shaman.
Also reflex spell lock will keep you moving fast and mana speels will take down that cybered up troll better than any street-Sam's submachinegun

HidaTsuzua
2007-10-25, 08:24 PM
I only have the main rulebook and Man and Machine on me. I own the others but don't have access to them so I'll do it by memory (so I might be off).

What sort of fights are you planning on getting into? Are we talking about random guards like the security guard contact, shadowrunners like the sample PCs, or stuff like the Terminator style cyberzombies? I'm assuming the former two for now.

I'm doing combat and then social and then a note on cyberware.

To be effective in combat as a cybered character, you need three things, a decent weapon skill, a smartlink, and some sort of initiative booster. You can do without these things, but you're hurting yourself.

Weapons skills were easier in Shadowrun 1st and 2nd edition. Nearly everyone would write Firearms 6 on their character sheet and called it a day. There would be some people with Heavy Weapons as well. In 3rd, they split up Firearms into Pistols, Assault Rifles, Rifles, Shotguns, and SMGs. So to have a standard compliment of heavy weapon and concealable backup, you'll have to have two skills! Well, don't really have to....

To save on skill points, you can just use shotguns. It's hidden in the weapon descriptions, but there is effectively a legal sawed-off shotgun. Under the Defiance T-250 shotgun description, there is a short barreled version that have concealability 6, has heavy pistol range, and 9M base damage. Use that instead of a heavy pistol, and pick up a handy burst fire shotgun and you're set for most combats! Shotguns also have a wide variety of ammo to choose from as well. Your range is limited with this option but you can always buy Rifles 3 with karma or something for snipering. But saving 6 skill points at creation is handy. Please don't shotgun snipe though or use the Cannon Compandium Gun Creation Rules. They'll make the GM mad.

In my experiences, Etiquette and Negotiations are the two most useful social skills. Etiquette is a popular catch-all social skill choice for GMs and help you find and sell stuff. Negotiations are useful for interactions and helps you get more money when talking to Mr. Johnson. Interrogation and Intimidation are both useful, but one or the other will likely be good picks.

Try to get modifiers from the GM for social tests when they can help you. Shaving off even a -1 to TN can mean a noticeable differences in successes.

Smartlinks are great. Smartlinks 2 are smartlinks with gravy. Using the split smartlink part rules might save you an point of Essence or two if you're lucky.

Initiative boosters are expensive in terms of cash and Essence. I'm of the opinion that you want to have at least two actions for every turn. Wired Reflexes 1 w/ trigger is cheap but costs 2 Essence. It's removable though so you can always upgrade. An alphaware version can be had for 1.6 Essence though. Boosted Reflexes + Synaptic Accelerator is the standard high end initiative booster. Expensive as all heck though. Grabbing Boosted Reflexes at creation and buying the Accelerators in game is an option as well. Or use the money now. Really depends on how many contacts and other stuff you want.

Tailored Pheromones are also extremely nice. More dice are always good. Enhanced Articulation is awesome. Grab it. Don't use Mnemonic Enhancers, they're just injecting pure cheese into your brain.

Now for building your character, you have 18 points in skills spoken for (shotguns, etiquette and negotiations) and you'll likely want lots of cash. I forget the contact costs rates with point buy so I don't know what to recommend for you there. Having a good Quickness and Intelligence helps with spotting stuff and combat pool. Willpower is good as well. Charisma is more iffy. It does affect karma costs for skill leveling, but you'll have most skills you'll want at 6 so you're going to just rounding out with skills so you don't have to take hideous default penalties instead. You could go low unless Charisma factors in more social test TNs than I recall (just the Intimidation/Interrogation Opposed roll IIRC). Body is good if you don't want to burn combat pool keeping yourself alive. Strength is really meh. Grab a 2 so the GM doesn't decide to enforce encumbrance rules to spite you. If he does, you're boned anyways since you can carry so little.

Make a bare bones for your character and then see what you have left. If you're getting more body enhancers, go bioware. I don't think very many people use it, but there is a +1 to most social rolls for every 2 points of Essense Lost. Now it recommends to wave this for some cyberware, but initiative boosters are singled out for causing this. So decide how bad you'll want to risk that +1 when choosing stuff. Assuming you go synaptic + boosted 1, you might get under the 2 point cut off easily.

Stormcrow
2007-10-25, 08:37 PM
As for your group dynamic:

You need, at a minimum, the following roles in a party:
2 Shooters (of which you are one)
1 face
1 combat mage
1 utility mage (buffs, recon, anti-mage work)
1 decker (You should probably make this an NPC if you can help it - decking slows the game down for all non-deckers)
1 driver (can be a rigger, but isn't necessary and I don't recommend the SR3 vehicle rules. This can be as simple as someone with a Drive of 4+ and a minivan - do NOT use a bunch of motorbikes as your primary means of group transport)

Extra Stuff that it's nice to have:
Heavy Weapons Guy
Actual Rigger, drone or otherwise
Combat Decker (can act as a backup to either a shooter or a decker)
Dedicated Medic (shamans can be really good at this)

We pretty much never have any mages which is an issue.

Currently got...

Two Shooters
A Face
A Driver
A Heavy Weapons
Maybe a PhysAd

Spread over three characters.

and _maybe_ a mage but the chances of that player listening to me a minimal. :P

Swordguy
2007-10-26, 05:44 AM
We pretty much never have any mages which is an issue.

Currently got...

Two Shooters
A Face
A Driver
A Heavy Weapons
Maybe a PhysAd

Spread over three characters.

and _maybe_ a mage but the chances of that player listening to me a minimal. :P

That's a reasonable group. Just make sure your GM knows that you aren't equipped to deal with magical threats. Kind of like going through a trap-heavy dungeon with no rogue - it's not really fair.

Honestly, your group looks like a good wetwork team. You're good at causing destruction and getting out. What you won't be good at in general will be non-visual recon (no decker or astral mage), deception (no illusions), protection (an enemy mage will eat you alive). Extraction is a maybe.

As for the cyberware social modifier: It's an optional rule:



Gamemasters may wish to reflect this in game play by using the following modifier to Charisma or Charisma-linked Skill Tests: +1 to all Target numbers of every 2 points of Essense (or portion therof above .5) below the normal Essence Attribute of 6
...
The +1 modifier should apply to any cyberware the gamemaster deems flagrant in appearance (luridly colored cybereyes, steely cyberarms...).

So, not only is it optional, but if you go with the Boosted Reflexes/Radio/Kevalar Bone Lacing bit, none of it should really apply. Wired Reflexes is flagrant (because you move all twitchy-like) unless you buy...can't recall the name...it's a switch from Man & Machine that allows you to turn Wired Reflexes off. Boosted doesn't have that, and none of the other cyber I suggested is visually flagrant.

Winterwind
2007-10-26, 06:00 AM
In my opinion, absolutely any team can work, provided contacts (especially to deckers), appropriate mission design (that's the GM's job, of course, but it might be reflected in your mission selection options - always go for the one where less magical protection is to be expected) and precautions.

I would suggest you get hold of some kind of ultrasound perception - that might well be your only practical way to deal with invisibles. And remember that you can ignore a spirit's/elemental's immunities when using Willpower and Charisma in melee combat. But generally, try to avoid magical threats.

Swordguy
2007-10-26, 06:48 AM
In my opinion, absolutely any team can work, provided contacts (especially to deckers), appropriate mission design (that's the GM's job, of course, but it might be reflected in your mission selection options - always go for the one where less magical protection is to be expected) and precautions.


Agreed. A lvl 2 decker contact is very appropriate (and needed) for your group, and see if your GM will let everybody pitch in money to make him a lvl 3 contact.

Tekraen
2007-10-26, 08:04 AM
I get the feeling this team will be seeing a lot of street-level violence, not so much the corp jobs unless the Corporate Court inspectors are coming in and a lab needs to get trashed. Lots of jobs abroad.

Maybe even a bank heist. Ooh, heist.

Winterwind
2007-10-26, 08:40 AM
Indeed, the streets might make for a better run environment for your team than massive corporate high security installations. Allow any desired mix of social interactions and violence, while generally having a lower security level - chances are that this will be apparent in the magic department first.

Although I should admit that I'm likely biased, looking back at my campaigns so far - I seem to have a strong preference for street level settings in general.

Tekraen
2007-10-26, 09:13 AM
Indeed, the streets might make for a better run environment for your team than massive corporate high security installations. Allow any desired mix of social interactions and violence, while generally having a lower security level - chances are that this will be apparent in the magic department first.

Although I should admit that I'm likely biased, looking back at my campaigns so far - I seem to have a strong preference for street level settings in general.

Truthfully, I believe the street level is more in line with what we as SR players want: some sneaking, some intrigue, lots of guns. Corp facilities are a conman's and a b&e spec's game: Do your homework, slide in, make minimal waves, get the goods, and go. Street level is everything we as real people can't do. :smallbiggrin:

Especially Urban Brawl. Be a criminal, get televised, and become popular based on your flavor of psychopathy. <3 UB ringer runs.

HidaTsuzua
2007-10-26, 10:21 AM
As for the cyberware social modifier: It's an optional rule:



So, not only is it optional, but if you go with the Boosted Reflexes/Radio/Kevalar Bone Lacing bit, none of it should really apply. Wired Reflexes is flagrant (because you move all twitchy-like) unless you buy...can't recall the name...it's a switch from Man & Machine that allows you to turn Wired Reflexes off. Boosted doesn't have that, and none of the other cyber I suggested is visually flagrant.

It is an optional rule, but you never know when the GM will use it. If you're not sure of the GM's intention, it's a possibility. You should discuss all sorts of stuff with GM when making a character so you know if you're planning yourself into a trap and so he knows what's up. I'll also help explain why the OP wanted to be cyber-lite. Anyways, it does say that even if non-obvious cyberware, +1 per 2.5 is the way to go. But honestly, that rule sucks and you should get the GM to not use it. Though otherwise, at long as you're positive, Essence matters very little for mundanes (some magical TNs, I think a biotech roll somewhere, and bio index).

The visually flagrantness of reflex cyberware such as boosted reflexes are open to debate. Most cases where they come into question (such as the "automatic reflexes can sometimes screw you" rule), it's based of all die boosts of cyberware. I guess you can make fluff argument about it not working, but I can counter with an equal fluff argument as well so that's moot.

Winterwind
2007-10-26, 12:15 PM
On the other hand, the dehumanisation by technology and the drive to self-improvement at the cost of self are major themes in both cyberpunk in general and ShadowRun in particular. So I would argue that there are excellent metagaming reasons why these rules screwing over-cybered characters should be included.

Xeon
2007-10-26, 12:52 PM
Man I really want to play shadowrun now. I just have to find all my books again, and a group to play with.

John Campbell
2007-10-26, 01:25 PM
The problem is that Shadowrun, unlike most cyberpunk, has the: "or.... you can be Awakened and self-improve for free!" option, which makes screwing over the cyber types less "How much of your humanity are you willing to sacrifice to be more efficient at your job?" and more "Ha ha tech sux magic roolz!"

Swordguy
2007-10-26, 04:37 PM
On the other hand, the dehumanisation by technology and the drive to self-improvement at the cost of self are major themes in both cyberpunk in general and ShadowRun in particular. So I would argue that there are excellent metagaming reasons why these rules screwing over-cybered characters should be included.

Agreed. I'd say that dehumanization to keep pace is one of the biggest three themes in cyberpunk generally, and the biggest one of two in Shadowrun specifically (the other being corporate interference in all aspects of life, including the government).

While it's is an optional rule, I use it because of that theme. It's otherwise very easy to get caught up in the race to be a cyberzombie for better killing power on the SR streets. As a shooty character, you're basically mechanically required to have some sort of reflex enhancer to be effective at all - otherwise you'll feel like a rogue in an all-undead campaign. Therefore, I'm very generous when someone takes performance penalties (like taking Boosted instead of Wired Reflexes) to keep their humanity. It should go both ways - players should be rewarded for trying to maintain their humanity even in the face of technological obsolescence.

It's arguable that the attraction of Boosted Reflexes (since they are clearly inferior to Wired, to say nothing of a Move-by-Wire system) is that they give you SOME edge without easy detection. Look at their fluff. Really, Boosted Reflexes should be under bioware (they didn't put it there because BR predates the idea of Bioware in Shadowrun). There's no metal, no wires - just a one-time electrochemical treatment.

Wired Reflexes MUST be obvious because there's a piece of kit specifically made to shut them down so as not to be detected. Move-by-Wire is similar. They give better performance at the cost of extra essence and the social penalty for flagrant cyber. If this wasn't a problem, the Reflex Trigger wouldn't exist, would it?

(I trust, there is no debate about folks with lvl 3 dermal armor and cybertails and such, right?)

Swordguy
2007-10-26, 04:43 PM
The problem is that Shadowrun, unlike most cyberpunk, has the: "or.... you can be Awakened and self-improve for free!" option, which makes screwing over the cyber types less "How much of your humanity are you willing to sacrifice to be more efficient at your job?" and more "Ha ha tech sux magic roolz!"

On the other hand, cyber-types don't tend to explode from running afoul of the Rule of One while casting.

And there's a LOT of ways to lose Magic Rating...whereas a mangled cyber-limb can relatively easily be replaced.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses (I agree that magic is slightly overpowered, but not by very much until you get into magical initiation and the stuff from Magic in the Shadows).

Winterwind
2007-10-26, 08:56 PM
(I agree that magic is slightly overpowered, but not by very much until you get into magical initiation and the stuff from Magic in the Shadows).And even that remains roughly balanced as long as initiate levels remain low (1-2), which - since I consider initiation to be pretty much a turning point in a magician's life - is exactly what they should be in my opinion.

Also, magicians are, if they want to do the most effective thing and keep their full Magic attribute, in some way ostracised from society. They can't use all the minor cybernetic enhancements like Head Memory or Datajacks (stuff just about every cubicle drone has in my version of SR). They can't enjoy the Matrix or Simsense to the full extent due to the lack of datajacks. Where others enjoy all the conveniences of being able to load matrix data straight into their head memory and viewing it on internal screens, they can't. And so on.
Heck, my Shaman considers installing a datajack in order to be better at Matrix games, 'cause it sucks to lose due to a weaker connection. But he's well aware that would impact his magic negatively, so he hesitates.

So, while on runs it might make sense to keep the full Magic attribute, in life many a magician will lower his Magic attribute to take part in all the conveniences of the Matrix Age.

Hawriel
2007-10-27, 01:28 AM
I read the post yesterday so Im sorry if my reply no longer needed.

The type of character your wanting is really reminding me of my first and still alive to this day character. He ended up being through skill character growth and atrition the leader of most groups he has been in. The only peace of crome he has is a smartlink I got at character creation. Its true if you have to much crome your not sure if you need a doctor or a mechanic. I think this is what helps level the playing field with cyber bunnies. When the shaman in the party needs to deal out the healing mojo the cyber bunny is in a world of hurt. It think the target number is 10 - essence for the heal spell, might be 8. The mage in my group loved healing my character he was the easiest to heal and never caused the mage to pass out. Trying to keep a high essance is not just a good RP thing but it really does hit you in the crunch.

This is my recomendation. I'll give it even though Its rather similar to others. I guess Im the six of one.

First Take a look at the weapons specialist in the main book. I think its really close to what your looking for. IT has 4 essence and alot of skills. Just take a look and trade in some of the combat skills for social ones. I recomend this because when third ed came out this templat was almost the spitting image of my character. Exept the cyberware and the being a women part. Here is a character I put together at work.

Atributes (B) B:4 S:3 Q:6 I:6 W:4 C:4

Active skills (A) Pistoles/aries pred. 4/6 SMG or shotgun 5 Rifle 4 Clubs or Staff 4 Unarmed 4 Athletics 4 Stealth 5 Throwing 4 Negotiation 5 Etiquette 5 Drive 3 Computer 2.

Knowledge skills
I recomend having a 4 in small unit tactics. other skills knowledge in police/secutiy procedures, laws, smuggling (going from the target to your safe house is an act of smuggling) psycology parazoalogy background magic you dont need to be a caster just how they can Frag you up and how to spot them.

Notes on skills. This is just a loose list. I give an choice for SMG and Shotgun because they are both good close in weapons. The SMG can be consealed better and sound supressed and have a better range than the shotgun. The shotgun ends the fight faster and has more options for ammo.If you want a shotgun keep the skill hight to compinsate for recoil. take your pick. you dont need to use every thing so the rifle is an after thought. I recomend gaving one your best at (pistol) and a second and third your good enough with. you really dont need 4 firearm skills. Etiquitte is a good cach all but you may want to focus in corp, secutiy compaby of your choice and more important streat etiquette. Negotiations is really all you need for the other social skill. Athletics and stealth self explanitory. Melee skills. Club or Staff, A club can be any thing a night stick, lead pipe table leg baseball bat or stun batton. Its not inharintly leathal. Same with a staff but you get reach.

Mony (C) 90,000. Im not going to brake down equipment by price but give recomendations fore having at the start and or obtaining in game.

Cyber: Cyber eyes. .2 E and can hold .5 E of extra for free. Flare comp. magnifacation, camara, lowlight or thermal recomended. If you upgrade get alpha or beta to cram more in there. Boosted reflex 2 1.25 E. Data jack. Smartlink 2. This will leave you just above 4 E but seing as 4 rounds down to the lowest number I say fill up the whole 2 points lost. I assume 4 is as low as you want to go. If you want to stay at 5 hold out on the boosted untill you can aford alfa or beta.
Guns: my favorite and you dont really need much.
Aries Preditor 3 with internal smartlink 2 personalised grip (+1D skill) its a little cheese but what the hell. SMG: HK 227 S. its sa/bf and integrated sound supresor. Enfield AS 7 sa/bf can use a 50 round drumb :smallwink: for both I recomend smlink(smg) folding stock (consealability) forgrip and shockpad. heavy barrel for the shotgun. get that recoil down. of corse the remington 990 is a damn nice gun. Long gun I recomend the remington 950 sporting rifle 9S damage $800, only 5 round mag but thats all you need. I do recomend a light pistol the cesca or the walther 120. conseal of 7/8 respectivly. silencer with a conleal holster (+2) not just because there small but dont let 6L fool you....Ammo
Ammo:
always have at least 2 extra mags for you pistols 3 for the smg. on your person. stock up on ammo. now back to the 6L pistol APDS is your friend. it drops armor values in half. marry xmas. oh and aim for the head. that said.
use gel rounds when you can. especialy in a shotgun. You dont need to kill honest secuity guards thats not the goal of a shadowrun. If the corp hates you at least the guards know whare you stand. That brings me back to melee weapons. You can get a colapsing baton high conseal or a telascoling staff. for unarmed comabat get shock gloves. 7S stun damage. if you dont want gel rounds get a taser. if you really want a knifej couger fine blade long knife. get it in game its 1500. str +1 M
Armor
formfit best you can get pluss a long coat or armored jacket its all you really need.

I hope Ive helped sorry this is long

Hawriel
2007-10-27, 01:40 AM
oh I forgot to mention.

contacts

if you can get it I recomend the gang conection, nothing like calling in a favor hand having 2d6 of friendly canon fa....er friends watching out for you.

Decker, fixer and a mage contact are very good to have.

Thrall_Of_Ao
2007-10-27, 11:49 AM
Some advice apart from all the crunch.

1. Remember that SR is a lot about RP, and it rewards forward thinking, proactive players. A good player can make an average character go very far in SR.

2. Know your fellow players. It can be a matter of life and death in a game where "shoot your friend" is an entirely viable play option.

3. Know your GM. Figure out his game strategy and counter it. Exploit the loopholes he leaves, out think him and savor the mingled look of surprise, frustration and respect on his face.
If he's not a petty jack arse, he'll even reward you for it.

Remember, it's not cheating, because every single game session he's doing his best to outsmart you and your fellow players (notice I didn't say friends).

Hope this helps, have fun and good luck.

-TOA

PS This is a great link if your interested in any edition of SR.
http://ingomonk.bullhonkie.com/forums/index.php

Crow
2007-10-27, 11:51 AM
I don't know if you would consider this a side note, or off-topic, but I think it relates to the theme of magic vs. cyberware and humanity discussion going on behind the scenes here.

We all know that combat in Shadowrun is quite deadly. Sometimes you can stabilize with the help of a DocWagon team, and sometimes you're just too far gone. This is pretty much the same when dealing with magical or cybered characters. Cybered characters take a penalty to social interaction when they push the limit a bit too far, which magical characters don't have to worry about (unless you apply penalties for being arrogant pricks). The magical characters get screwed on the royal when they get incapacitated though, facing magic loss...possibly twice if the person treating them doesn't know they are awakened.

That said, in our SR group we had a small player issue. Nobody had a problem with the cybered characters getting penalties for social interaction (even the cybered character players themselves), and didn't complain all that much when a cybered character lost a limb, even when it had expensive gadgets in it (esp. the case with eyes). Only when a character really got the shaft and lost a point of an attribute was there a little complaining. Even then it was considered "part of the risk he took".

However, if a magical character lost a point of their magic attribute, it was a catastrophe akin to the end of the world. All of the sudden, the magical character was "useless", and the player would stew about how the GM was "screwing them over" with a "gimped" character. Sometimes, they would lose interest in a perfectly viable character as a result.

Has anybody else experienced this? Why is it that in my group at least, people are so open to cybered characters getting screwed, but when a magical character gets screwed it's "crossing the line"?

Crow
2007-10-27, 11:54 AM
Decker, fixer and a mage contact are very good to have.

Do't forget Bail Agent, Rigger, and Corrupt City Councilman (or cop).

Winterwind
2007-10-27, 12:12 PM
Has anybody else experienced this? Why is it that in my group at least, people are so open to cybered characters getting screwed, but when a magical character gets screwed it's "crossing the line"?Haven't experienced this yet. In our group, we take the rules for Magic loss as a matter of fact and noone has ever complained about them or deemed them unfair. Besides, we all believe that if there is any unbalance in the system, it works in favour of the magic users, so they really should not complain.

Of course, it hasn't come up yet, either, because no character has ever come so close to death yet. In fact, a character death has yet to occur in any one of our games, and that's in spite of ShadowRun being rather on the low-lethality end of the scale amongst the RPGs we play.

Swordguy
2007-10-27, 12:21 PM
Has anybody else experienced this? Why is it that in my group at least, people are so open to cybered characters getting screwed, but when a magical character gets screwed it's "crossing the line"?

Yes, yes I have. I think part of the reason is that the cybered PCs chose to have stuff done to them that will give them those penalties. Awakened PCs must have stuff done to them for them to lose their Magic Attribute.

Encourage them to take Geas to get the Magic point back, and remind them gently that the potential to lose Magic is part and parcel of running the shadows. If they can't take a joke, they shouldn't have joined.

@ Winterwind: you mean the "high-lethality" end of the scale, right? SR is pretty damn deadly (though not as bad as early editions, true). If not, what the heck else are you playing? CoC? Paranoia?

Winterwind
2007-10-27, 12:44 PM
@ Winterwind: you mean the "high-lethality" end of the scale, right? SR is pretty damn deadly (though not as bad as early editions, true). If not, what the heck else are you playing? CoC? Paranoia?No, I meant indeed the low-lethality end of the scale. SR characters still often can take a couple of hits, can enforce TN modifiers on their enemies, may have cyberware that keeps them fighting, and possess their Combat Pool to avoid getting hit.

Systems I play most often, aside of SR, are a self-written fantasy RPG (which does indeed have lower lethality than SR), Call of Cthulhu (which is more lethal even before one begins to consider the insanity and the superiority of many potential foes), and DeGenesis (my favourite, a German post-apocalyptic RPG currently being translated into English, which is more lethal as well (my avatar comes from that one, by the way)).
Recently I also added MechWarrior (3rd edition) to that list - you can judge that better than me, but so far I have the impression it might be (very slightly) more lethal than SR as well. I might be mistaken here, though.
(I actually play more systems than that, but the others in a different group where we play freeform only, so I don't know about the lethality of the rules there... except for Paranoia, of course. :smallwink: )

So, amongst the systems I play with gameplay mechanics and have enough experience with to make a definite statement, that would make one less lethal than SR, and two more lethal than SR.

Hawriel
2007-10-27, 01:52 PM
Ive only made two characters with magic, a shaman and an adept. I have to admit I am very aware of the chance of losing their magic atribute. I think some of the frustration is that it can be so damn easy. The shaman goes down in a fight thinking quickly a team mate slaps on a trama pach....yeah. I think the over frustration comes in two parts. Its so damned expencive to get proper medical care for a mage, and its hard to find it. Makes me wonder is it more expencive to be a smoker with family history of cancer or a mage in the SR health care system?

Second reason is karma. With cyber your really just investing cash and dumbing your dumb stat, magic wich your never going to use any way. the only draw backs are some social problems and the big one hight target numbers for healing magic. A mage character invests alot karma into their magic. Big spells and initiation are expencive karma wise. you cant buy back one or two points of MR but you can buy back cyber arm fairly easy. Unless you fry boosted or wired reflexes the cyber bunny can get back to his previos power level rather quickly.

The mage can get a power forcus. Most likly they already have one. However with a lower MR their even more likly going to turn into a junky. THe characters that run together in my party are pretty good at the team consept. they look out for each other and all. Some of them are real friends. So they know as a whole that the mage needs to be looked out for in medical emergencies. We go to the hippy magic store to by are holistic medicen just for the awakened teamates needs.

That all said. If my character lost a point I would be kinda moody but only because the character would be distraut at some level. Then again if its just a point in can be recovered in time. I see no problem with mages getting some crome. If a datajack is all you want why not spend mony on filling up the whole lost point? Might as well essence loss is infor a penny in for a pound any way.

John Campbell
2007-10-27, 02:03 PM
However, if a magical character lost a point of their magic attribute, it was a catastrophe akin to the end of the world. All of the sudden, the magical character was "useless", and the player would stew about how the GM was "screwing them over" with a "gimped" character. Sometimes, they would lose interest in a perfectly viable character as a result.

Has anybody else experienced this? Why is it that in my group at least, people are so open to cybered characters getting screwed, but when a magical character gets screwed it's "crossing the line"?

Haven't seen it. Of course, I'm usually the one that ends up playing the mage (I'm often the only one at the table not scared of the magic rules... I'm not sure why; they're nowhere near as bad as the rigging rules or the decking rules or even the more esoteric parts of the cyberware rules), and I'm not a whiny little bitch, so there you go.

If initiation is allowed, Magic points are easy enough to replace, anyway, and once you get Magic up to 8 or so, raising it more doesn't really help much. Initiation, at that point, is all about the metamagics anyway, so if you've gotta replace a point or two of Magic along the way, well, them's the breaks.

I don't really consider staying pure of Essence the effective way to play a mage, either. I frequently do play the 6.0 Essence mage, for RP reasons, but from a purely mechanical standpoint,. it's well worth trading in a point of Essence for some carefully selected 'ware. Smartlink and some vision mods (my 6.0 Essence mages, coincidentally, have all had therm naturally...), if nothing else, and there are other toys that don't cost much Essence and can seriously help out a mage.

Citizen Joe
2007-10-27, 02:07 PM
I have found that the heads of megacorps have offices that are screened against magic and cybernetics. They do their business there, where they can be reasonably sure they aren't being unduly influenced.

In the similar vein, you might go decker and conduct all deals in cyberspace. That way it is purely your own negotiating skills. It also has the advantage of being relatively anonymous.

Swordguy
2007-10-27, 03:19 PM
So, amongst the systems I play with gameplay mechanics and have enough experience with to make a definite statement, that would make one less lethal than SR, and two more lethal than SR.

Ah. Okay, yeah, with that lineup as a comparison, I can see your point. I was comparing SR to stuff like D&D (HP or WP/VP - it doesn't matter) or more popular games like WoD or Exalted. But, yes, compared against MW3 (all the gun power, none of the cyber that lets you deal with it) or CoC, then yes, it's certainly a less lethal system.

@ Citizen Joe: while the heads of AAA-corps have screening such as you describe, the issue comes when the runner start mind-scanning the Johnsons that come to the seedy bars to give them jobs. Your choices are to let them screen him (bad), or block them from screening him with either magic (bad - because it starts stretching the bounds of credulity after the 13th Johnson with magic-blockers) or tech (bad - because the PCs will kill him and take the toy).

You should never put a piece of kit into the campaign in an NPCs hand that you aren't willing to let the PCs get their hands on.

comicshorse
2007-10-27, 10:18 PM
My Phys. Adept lost a point of magic after taking a deadly wound and while it was annoying its silly to complain tot he G.M. that's part iof the chances your P.C.s take for Shadowrunning.
Also being a mage can be social disadvantage. Some of the Shadowrun novels make it quite clear that some of the more extreme relgious sects still regard magic as being akin to devil worship and even the more moderate sects which will tolerate mages are going to find it hard to get along with a Shaman's, who effectively worship an animal spirit.