Skin graft Shenanigans

[Noxangelo]

Could you have yourself skinned, transmute it into something more durable like metal or riverine before grafting it back on?

[Necroticplague]

Yes, that seems like a pretty acceptable refluff for things like Chitin Plating, Bonemail, Scaly Skin, and Plated Skin grafts.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's something you could add to this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432).

Not sure how having a psionic skin of proteus made from riverine or whatever would work when metamorphosis'd into another creature, although you ARE still wearing it, so it should likely still apply.

[ShurikVch]

Dragon #359 have an article about the Craft (body modification) skill; it allows to make, among other things, "permanent armor" combat mod; the armor may be mastercrafted, made of special materials, magical, and even spiked
It allows AC up to +8, costs 300 gp/AC, weighs 5 lbs./AC, have max. Dex bonus of "9 minus AC", ACP=AC, and ASF of 5%/AC; count as Light Armor up to +3 AC, and as Medium Armor - up to +6, the rest are Heavy Armor
Characters who using "permanent armor" body mod are unable to wear any other armor (although still able to use shields)
("Permanent armor" still may be removed, but it would inflict 1d6 damage per character's HD, and ruin the armor)



It's something you could add to this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432).There is a problem with this idea: RAW says
Grafts are not magic items
A graft is not a magic item
Grafts are not magic items
A graft is not a magic item
A graft is not a magic item
So, shouldn't it mean a magic item couldn't be made into a graft (illithid's Weapon Graft being the specific exception)?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragon #359 have an article about the Craft (body modification) skill; it allows to make, among other things, "permanent armor" combat mod; the armor may be mastercrafted, made of special materials, magical, and even spiked
It allows AC up to +8, costs 300 gp/AC, weighs 5 lbs./AC, have max. Dex bonus of "9 minus AC", ACP=AC, and ASF of 5%/AC; count as Light Armor up to +3 AC, and as Medium Armor - up to +6, the rest are Heavy Armor
Characters who using "permanent armor" body mod are unable to wear any other armor (although still able to use shields)
("Permanent armor" still may be removed, but it would inflict 1d6 damage per character's HD, and ruin the armor)


There is a problem with this idea: RAW says
So, shouldn't it mean a magic item couldn't be made into a graft (illithid's Weapon Graft being the specific exception)?A graft is not a magic item.

But nothing says a graft cannot be made into a magic item.

After all, a sword is not a magic item.

But a sword can be made into a magic item.

[ShurikVch]

A graft is not a magic item.

But nothing says a graft cannot be made into a magic item.It's not how game works: RAW shouldn't say you can't do something - you can't do it by default; RAW should say you can...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's not how game works: RAW shouldn't say you can't do something - you can't do it by default; RAW should say you can...Illithid skin graft is a skin.

A psychoactive skin takes up the skin slot, as it covers the entire body (just like actual skin), and an illithid skin graft should be enhanceable as a psychoactive skin.

It should also be entirely possible to craft a psychoactive skin out of riverine, since you can make any item out of riverine, and the cost is based on the item's weight.

Note that the MIC has rules for adding enhancements from body slots to other body slots, and psychoactive skins have their own body slot. Adding the effects of an illithid skin graft to a psychoactive skin or the abilities of a psychoactive skin to a skin graft is perfectly within the rules.

[ShurikVch]

A psychoactive skin takes up the skin slot, as it covers the entire body (just like actual skin)Actually, by the RAW, Psychoactive Skin is slotless:
Body Slot: —



It should also be entirely possible to craft a psychoactive skin out of riverine, since you can make any item out of riverine, and the cost is based on the item's weight.Psychoactive Skin is made of ectoplasm - you can't made it of anything else



Adding the effects of an illithid skin graft to a psychoactive skin or the abilities of a psychoactive skin to a skin graft is perfectly within the rules.But illithid skin graft is not a magic item - ergo, beyond the rules of Magic Item Compendium...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually, by the RAW, Psychoactive Skin is slotless:Psychoactive skins have their own special body slots that aren't actually body slots (same as the skin graft, in fact). You can have three equipped at any time, but only one active.


Psychoactive Skin is made of ectoplasm - you can't made it of anything elseSwords are typically made of iron or steel. Ropes are typically made out of hemp or silk. Leather armor is typically made from leather. That doesn't mean you can't change them to riverine. There are actually rules for making things out of riverine, rather than what they're normally made of. It's in the description.


But illithid skin graft is not a magic item - ergo, beyond the rules of Magic Item Compendium...And swords are not magic items either. Nor are haversacks, or ruby slippers. That's what magic item creation is for.

Seriously. If you can't make nonmagical items into magic items, then where do magic items come from?

[ShurikVch]

Psychoactive skins have their own special body slots that aren't actually body slotsCheck the Body Slot Affinities (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#bodySlotAffinities): do you see suitable slot for a Psychoactive Skins?



(same as the skin graft, in fact).Grafts - even in the Eberron! - aren't using "body slots" system



Swords are typically made of iron or steel. Ropes are typically made out of hemp or silk. Leather armor is typically made from leather. That doesn't mean you can't change them to riverine. There are actually rules for making things out of riverine, rather than what they're normally made of. It's in the description. Nothing in the swords' description says they should be made out of steel - the earliest historical "longswords" were made of copper (not even bronze!). Heck, even wooden sword is still a sword (and can be deadly in able hands). But try to make a sword out of cork; or even better - wool; doesn't works so well? Suitable materials required... And Leather Armor is always made of leather - or it wouldn't be called Leather Armor. Description of Psychoactive Skins says: "Psychoactive skins (also sometimes called ectoshells) are fist-sized globs of psionically charged ectoplasm." Ectoplasm, not something else!..
No, there are (almost) no rules for making things out of riverine - it's mostly guidelines. Say, you want to make a ring out of riverine. How much is it will cost? 2000 gp per lb.? And how much our Ring weighs? Unknown? No weight - no price, no price - no crafting!..Also, skins for Humanoid Skin graft aren't crafted - they're harvested. I'm unaware of Humanoids which are made of riverine, but - presuming you would find some: good luck to harvest their skin!..



And swords are not magic items either. Nor are haversacks, or ruby slippers. That's what magic item creation is for.

Seriously. If you can't make nonmagical items into magic items, then where do magic items come from?Firstly, you said:
Note that the MIC has rules for adding enhancements from body slots to other body slots, and psychoactive skins have their own body slot. Adding the effects of an illithid skin graft to a psychoactive skin ... is perfectly within the rules.there are problems with it: Psychoactive Skins, as we established earlier, don't "have their own body slot"
Humanoid Skin isn't a magical item at all, thus - falls beyond the MIC rules for adding enhancements, because its properties aren't a result of enhancements. On the same reasoning, you as well may ask to add Greatsword enhancement to your Headband of Intellect (for surprise 2d6+Str headbutt)

[Noxangelo]

Check the Body Slot Affinities (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#bodySlotAffinities): do you see suitable slot for a Psychoactive Skins?

lol, that is the wrong list. since it lists bracers and bracelets separately despite them using the same slot, same for hat and helmet. you want this one:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?585673

though the body slot would have a convincing argument



Grafts - even in the Eberron! - aren't using "body slots" system

early grafts didn't though i believe later grafts did. starting in magic of eberron complete with skin slot.



Nothing in the swords' description says they should be made out of steel - the earliest historical "longswords" were made of copper (not even bronze!).

they were no where near long enough to be considered an arming sword (the 3.5 longsword)


Heck, even wooden sword is still a sword (and can be deadly in able hands). But try to make a sword out of cork; or even better - wool; doesn't works so well?Suitable materials required...

its work, not works. and there is nothing to stop you making a sword out of riverine, it just has no weapon specific rules.


And Leather Armor is always made of leather - or it wouldn't be called Leather Armor.

since at no point does the description say the it replaces metal armours, there is nothing to stop you having riverine leather armour except the +9000gp price tag. the given example is chainmail which would be hell to make and would actually be more flexible than leather armour since the PHB describes the leather armour as boiled.


Description of Psychoactive Skins says: "Psychoactive skins (also sometimes called ectoshells) are fist-sized globs of psionically charged ectoplasm." Ectoplasm, not something else!..

not knowing much about ectoplasm i looked it up, did you know wall of ectoplasm is the psionic equivalent of the magical wall of force, just without the invulnerability. also ectoplasm has no set state except as defined by the power that makes it and as we have established, riverine can make flexible items which makes sense since mage armor is a force effect too.


No, there are (almost) no rules for making things out of riverine - it's mostly guidelines. Say, you want to make a ring out of riverine. How much is it will cost? 2000 gp per lb.? And how much our Ring weighs? Unknown? No weight - no price, no price - no crafting!

actually the chainmail armour example from the book does set a precedent for rings of riverine.


Also, skins for Humanoid Skin graft aren't crafted - they're harvested. I'm unaware of Humanoids which are made of riverine, but - presuming you would find some: good luck to harvest their skin!..

and this is exactly why i started this thread. can you transmute the skin, can you disperse with the needless water sandwich and apply the force onto the skin, are there any other options.


Firstly, you said:there are problems with it: Psychoactive Skins, as we established earlier, don't "have their own body slot"
Humanoid Skin isn't a magical item at all, thus - falls beyond the MIC rules for adding enhancements, because its properties aren't a result of enhancements. On the same reasoning, you as well may ask to add Greatsword enhancement to your Headband of Intellect (for surprise 2d6+Str headbutt)

they are both slotless items, and grafts are referred to as an alternative form of magic item. and the humanoid skin is magic, as it requires the spell alter self in its construction and also many magic items are made from the parts of once living creatures. and your example is essentially a horned helm that provides an enhancement to intellect.

[ShurikVch]

lol, that is the wrong list. since it lists bracers and bracelets separately despite them using the same slot, same for hat and helmet. you want this one:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?585673

though the body slot would have a convincing argumentOK, my mistake
IMHO, it's pretty weird: wearing the Headband of Intellect - which is "light cord with a small gem" - prevents you from wearing a helmet; probably, it's something-something-magical-interference...



early grafts didn't though i believe later grafts did. starting in magic of eberron complete with skin slot.Eberron have Graft Locations; it's not body slots - grafting doesn't prevent usage of magic items, and you can't graft same-location grafts not because it's forbidden specifically, but because Eberron banned grafting from more than one type, and every type of grafts have just one (if at all) of grafts for any locations



they were no where near long enough to be considered an arming sword (the 3.5 longsword)2400-2000 BC (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Copper_sword_from_Beth_Dagan_near_Jaffa_2400-2000_BC.jpg) - thus, longer than some modern countries existed...




its work, not works.Sorry - English isn't my language

and there is nothing to stop you making a sword out of riverine, it just has no weapon specific rules.

since at no point does the description say the it replaces metal armours, there is nothing to stop you having riverine leather armour except the +9000gp price tag. the given example is chainmail which would be hell to make and would actually be more flexible than leather armour since the PHB describes the leather armour as boiled.Sword?
Certainly.
But armor?
There it gets interesting: there are no problems with single-piece armor (like Breastplate), or armor which made of movable but rigid parts (like various mails); but for Leather or Hide armor? Wall of Force isn't famous for being flexible, so it looks like a no-go



not knowing much about ectoplasm i looked it up, did you know wall of ectoplasm is the psionic equivalent of the magical wall of force, just without the invulnerability.
I. e. - like Wall of Force, except... not... :smallamused:

riverine can make flexible itemsWhich is unproven...

which makes sense since mage armor is a force effect too.Not all [force] effects are created equal



actually the chainmail armour example from the book does set a precedent for rings of riverine.For a "ring" I meant ring (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm), not just "a ring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring)"



and this is exactly why i started this thread. can you transmute the skin, can you disperse with the needless water sandwich and apply the force onto the skin, are there any other options.Wouldn't aforementioned Craft (body modification) good enough for your purposes?




they are both slotless items, and grafts are referred to as an alternative form of magic item.See my quotes at #4 - they said "grafts aren't magical items" multiple times (sometimes even twice in the very same article)


and the humanoid skin is magic, as it requires the spell alter self in its constructionNot everything which was created by magic is magical itself


and your example is essentially a horned helm that provides an enhancement to intellect.Horned Helm do damage because it's horned; but why a "light cord with a small gem" should do 2d6+Str? How, with what magic you made it?

[Noxangelo]

OK, my mistake
IMHO, it's pretty weird: wearing the Headband of Intellect - which is "light cord with a small gem" - prevents you from wearing a helmet; probably, it's something-something-magical-interference...

they fix it in pathfinder where you have an eye, head and headband slot. they also give you torso, body and armour slots so now you can wear a robe and armour



2400-2000 BC (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Copper_sword_from_Beth_Dagan_near_Jaffa_2400-2000_BC.jpg) - thus, longer than some modern countries existed...

I was talking physical length, copper isn't strong enough to make a sword longer than a short sword.




Sorry - English isn't my language

indeed, and i apologise it it sounded a bit harsh. it was 2 am and it irked me more than it otherwise would.




Sword?
Certainly.
But armor?
There it gets interesting: there are no problems with single-piece armor (like Breastplate), or armor which made of movable but rigid parts (like various mails); but for Leather or Hide armor? Wall of Force isn't famous for being flexible, so it looks like a no-go

and yet the RAW of riverine would disagree with you, it has a listed price for light armour and unlike adamantine, it has no restrictions for being metal only. by the RAW of riverine, i could have riverine padded armour, which with be worthless seeing as it would have no benefit but still RAW legal.



I. e. - like Wall of Force, except... not... :smallamused:

lol, was just an observation and of little bearing on this argument


Which is unproven...

my riverine padded armour would disagree with you. as


Not all [force] effects are created equal

yes it is a lesser force effect, i mention it because it is also a flexible force effect as are the bigby's hand spells a thus showing that force effects are not all ridged, and that riverine may not be limited to being ridged either.



For a "ring" I meant ring (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm), not just "a ring (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring)"

why not? you can have magical riverine armour, why not a magical riverine ring?



Wouldn't aforementioned Craft (body modification) good enough for your purposes?

it would work but would be an inferior option i want something that is not obvious by sight alone. also the answer to this question has very interesting implications. also, would allow you to have superman's unbreakable skin.




See my quotes at #4 - they said "grafts aren't magical items" multiple times (sometimes even twice in the very same article)

one of the grafts articles refers to them as an alternative option to magic items for adventureres. can't find it now though :smallannoyed:


Not everything which was created by magic is magical itself

yeah my bad, didn't read the article properly, that said, it doesn't stop them being made magical.


Horned Helm do damage because it's horned; but why a "light cord with a small gem" should do 2d6+Str? How, with what magic you made it?

it manifests horns made of force? wouldn't be the weirdest magic item in d&d.

[ShurikVch]

I was talking physical length, copper isn't strong enough to make a sword longer than a short sword.Did you even seen it?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Copper_sword_from_Beth_Dagan_near_Jaffa_2400-2000_BC.jpg/311px-Copper_sword_from_Beth_Dagan_near_Jaffa_2400-2000_BC.jpg
This thing is over 1 meter long, and made of almost pure copper (with a small addition of arsenic)



and yet the RAW of riverine would disagree with you, it has a listed price for light armour and unlike adamantine, it has no restrictions for being metal only. by the RAW of riverine, i could have riverine padded armour, which with be worthless seeing as it would have no benefit but still RAW legal.Such oversights are pretty common among the D&D sources
Say, Arms and Equipment Guide have:
Blended Quartz - it doesn't restrict which type of armor may be made of it. But - come on! Leather armor made of blend of iron and quartz? Really?!
Elukian Clay - super-tough (but strangely buoyant) dry clay. Doesn't restricts types of armor too. Leather armor made of dry clay?!! :smallconfused:
Bronzewood - table for its pricing have "Light armor" raw. But only breastplate, banded mail, splint mail, half-plate, and full plate may be fashioned of bronzewood. See any Light Armor in that list?Any DM could fix it in a moment, and many players wouldn't try it anyway



my riverine padded armour would disagree with you. asCan you show me the book(/booklet/magazine/online article) in which it was printed? No? Then it doesn't exists.



yes it is a lesser force effect, i mention it because it is also a flexible force effect as are the bigby's hand spells a thus showing that force effects are not all ridged, and that riverine may not be limited to being ridged either.Effect such as Mage Armor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm) or Shield (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) are different in a way: if somebody blast you with Disintegrate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm), Wall of Force (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) would disappear, but tank that one hit for you; Mage Armor or Shield wouldn't protect you in any way, but also wouldn't fizzle because of the blast
And we don't know the internal composition of "Hands", so to assume about it...



why not? you can have magical riverine armour, why not a magical riverine ring?Because there are no rules for making things out of riverine
Guideline is "+2,000 gp/lb."
But how much a ring weighs?
"Rings have no appreciable weight."
It was did because it's unknown who would wear the ring in question: the very same ring fit all sizes - from tiny Imp to huge Titan (sorta like Hulk's pants)
Also, even rings of the same size should have different weight depending on material
Thus, having no weight to calculate cost, we get the "Divide By Cucumber Error", and incapable to craft a ring out of riverine



it would work but would be an inferior option i want something that is not obvious by sight alone. also the answer to this question has very interesting implications. also, would allow you to have superman's unbreakable skin.Let me list all the problems with this idea:
Humanoid Skin graft says nothing about the graft's recipient inheriting any benefits from a donor (such as natural AC). So, one of the strictest possible rulings: "It's done... But you got no protection from it. :smalltongue:"
Riverine is covered by force from all sides rather than just outside. The very same layer of force which prevents pressured water from bursting out would also prevent the "skin" from being grafted.
Living skin is there not just for a show - it have important physiological functions. So, being grafted with "riverine skin" would grant you all "benefits" of being flayed alive... :smalleek:
"Riverine skin" wouldn't, actually, grant you any protection in combat: let alone all the supernatural stuff which laughs at all non-magical armor in the game, but even the "most natural" physical attacks do damage not by penetrating armor (or armor would take damage too!), but by exploiting gaps in it.
Presuming the protection would even grant you actual invincibility - do you want to be one more invulnerable character who was suffocated to death?
Even if it make "invulnerable as Superman", it wouldn't make you also "strong as Superman" - be prepared to RP a prisoner... :smallamused:
And, once again, Disintegrate: on top of losing your "riverine protection" you would be also flayed alive (which is - what? - 1d6/HD?)



one of the grafts articles refers to them as an alternative option to magic items for adventureres. can't find it now though :smallannoyed:Yes, one of articles, indeed, referred to them as "alternative to magic items", but - considering the ungodly prices - you would be better just regenerating your missing bits and buying conventional magic items.
(And in cases when conventional magic items are suppressed - it will affect grafts too, at least - partially)

[Noxangelo]

Did you even seen it?

This thing is over 1 meter long, and made of almost pure copper (with a small addition of arsenic)

5% is a lot in metallurgy, as in huge. very high carbon steel has at most 2.1% carbon. and i couldn't find any real articles on or related to it, probably due to a lack of surviving copper weapons. the article i did find said that it was probably unique and a status symbol. other than that i cannot comment on whether it is symbolic or a useable and effective weapon because ot would be pure s



Such oversights are pretty common among the D&D sources
Say, Arms and Equipment Guide have:
Blended Quartz - it doesn't restrict which type of armor may be made of it. But - come on! Leather armor made of blend of iron and quartz? Really?!
Elukian Clay - super-tough (but strangely buoyant) dry clay. Doesn't restricts types of armor too. Leather armor made of dry clay?!! :smallconfused:
Bronzewood - table for its pricing have "Light armor" raw. But only breastplate, banded mail, splint mail, half-plate, and full plate may be fashioned of bronzewood. See any Light Armor in that list?Any DM could fix it in a moment, and many players wouldn't try it anyway

blended quarts says "Possible Armour Types: Note that items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected." and bronzewood only lists medium and heavy armour with the with the same restrictions. it also does not say that only those armours can be made just that only armours primarily of metal can, those are examples.

the clay however seems to be kosher.



Can you show me the book(/booklet/magazine/online article) in which it was printed? No? Then it doesn't exists.

By RAW there is absolutely nothing to stop me. if you rule it cannot then that would be homebrew.



Effect such as Mage Armor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageArmor.htm) or Shield (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) are different in a way: if somebody blast you with Disintegrate (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm), Wall of Force (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) would disappear, but tank that one hit for you; Mage Armor or Shield wouldn't protect you in any way, but also wouldn't fizzle because of the blast
And we don't know the internal composition of "Hands", so to assume about it...

i brought them up to show that force effects can be flexible and thus support my argument that force armours can be too. as for the hand spells, they are force effects that create a magical construct, some of which are animated like the crushing hand, which i brought up once again to show that force effects don't have to be ridged.



Because there are no rules for making things out of riverine
Guideline is "+2,000 gp/lb."
But how much a ring weighs?
"Rings have no appreciable weight."
It was did because it's unknown who would wear the ring in question: the very same ring fit all sizes - from tiny Imp to huge Titan (sorta like Hulk's pants)
Also, even rings of the same size should have different weight depending on material
Thus, having no weight to calculate cost, we get the "Divide By Cucumber Error", and incapable to craft a ring out of riverine

no offence intended but this has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments I've heard. that would be true of any and all materials you could use. the cost is covered in the gp cost of creation and will always cost the same whether it is made of wood, bone, gold or solidified holy fire from mount celestia itself. for example. the ring of arcane supremacy is made of silver, where as the ring of enduring arcana is a lattice of gold and mithral covering most of the finger, the former costs 6000gp to create, that latter half that. material has no effect on the cost of magic rings.

as for making a physical ring to wear, yes you can make it out of riverine, i can say that because the example armour given is literally made of rings of riverine.



Let me list all the problems with this idea:
Humanoid Skin graft says nothing about the graft's recipient inheriting any benefits from a donor (such as natural AC). So, one of the strictest possible rulings: "It's done... But you got no protection from it. :smalltongue:"
Riverine is covered by force from all sides rather than just outside. The very same layer of force which prevents pressured water from bursting out would also prevent the "skin" from being grafted.
Living skin is there not just for a show - it have important physiological functions. So, being grafted with "riverine skin" would grant you all "benefits" of being flayed alive... :smalleek:
"Riverine skin" wouldn't, actually, grant you any protection in combat: let alone all the supernatural stuff which laughs at all non-magical armor in the game, but even the "most natural" physical attacks do damage not by penetrating armor (or armor would take damage too!), but by exploiting gaps in it.
Presuming the protection would even grant you actual invincibility - do you want to be one more invulnerable character who was suffocated to death?
Even if it make "invulnerable as Superman", it wouldn't make you also "strong as Superman" - be prepared to RP a prisoner... :smallamused:
And, once again, Disintegrate: on top of losing your "riverine protection" you would be also flayed alive (which is - what? - 1d6/HD?)

1.) it is indestructible, how would piercing and slashing damage work? bludgeoning damage will still be a thing though unless it is ridged but animate is in bigby's hand spells.
2.) that pressured water is the most ridiculous piece of fluff ever. realistically, you want your armour to be as light as possible so riverine should just be a thin sheet of near weightless force shaped into a desired form.
3.)probably not the worst thing this character has suffered. as for covering the physiological effects, there are a number of magical effects that could compensate for it. this is a multiverse where sleeping, eating and drinking can be optional.
4.) thats the point, there are very few gaps in your skin. even your eyes can be covered since it is transparent.
5.) see point 3
6.) lol, a warhulk with indestructible skin, scary thought. incidentally this thread is a result on me wanting to have his items be tattooed onto his skin as a way to give him protection even when naked, a factotum whose items can only be removed by flaying him alive and is built with open lock, disable device and mobility as focuses.
7.) better than 2d6/caster level.



final note, this has reached a point where we are just arguing without are productive result. i come here to have fun and this isn't fun anymore. if you do respond i will read it but if there are no new point that deserve a response then i won't be responding.
either way, thank you for all the though and effort you have put into all of your responses.

[ExLibrisMortis]

final note, this has reached a point where we are just arguing without are productive result. i come here to have fun and this isn't fun anymore. if you do respond i will read it but if there are no new point that deserve a response then i won't be responding.
either way, thank you for all the though and effort you have put into all of your responses.
Well, you didn't exactly need to argue about every single damn point... Shurik provides the RAW quotes, he provides examples, he's been nothing but precise and making complete sense, and you want to discuss the correct form of "work" and whether 5% arsenic is a "small amount"? You need to learn to separate the core argument from the examples, dude.

If it wasn't obvious, I'm in complete agreement with Shurik, and I'll be checking out Dragon #359 for that use of Craft.

[Sinner's Garden]

Because there are no rules for making things out of riverine
Guideline is "+2,000 gp/lb."
But how much a ring weighs?
"Rings have no appreciable weight."
It was did because it's unknown who would wear the ring in question: the very same ring fit all sizes - from tiny Imp to huge Titan (sorta like Hulk's pants)
Also, even rings of the same size should have different weight depending on material
Thus, having no weight to calculate cost, we get the "Divide By Cucumber Error", and incapable to craft a ring out of riverine

I don't really care about the bulk of your post, but this is nonsense. There's no division involved here; it's multiplication. 2000x0=0.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't really care about the bulk of your post, but this is nonsense. There's no division involved here; it's multiplication. 2000x0=0.
Strictly speaking, it's 2000 * "not appreciable" = ???.

[Sinner's Garden]

Strictly speaking, it's 2000 * "not appreciable" = ???.

By the same logic, nobody could ever carry a ring because it's weight value is undefined. Not appreciable is indistinguishable from nothing.

[ExLibrisMortis]

By the same logic, nobody could ever carry a ring because it's weight value is undefined. Not appreciable is indistinguishable from nothing.
The whole point of the comment was that you shouldn't take nitpicking too seriously, because there's always one greater level of precision :smalltongue:. Anyway, to get back to the original point: Shurik mentioned the riverine ring in the context of making a skin graft out of riverine, and (correctly) pointed out that even for something as simple as a ring, there's no fixed price, and you need DM approval for them to even exist--which you certainly aren't going to get if you're trying to make living skin out of riverine. The ring is just an example of the lack of rules surrounding riverine.

[ShurikVch]

By the same logic, nobody could ever carry a ring because it's weight value is undefined. Not appreciable is indistinguishable from nothing.Do you agree: items in the game can't be crafted without paying for materials? (Especially - expensive exotic materials!)
Do you agree: riverine items are priced only by their weight (Unless armor or shield)?
Do you agree: unknown weight of a ring make it impossible to price?
So, since we can't spend unknown amount of money, - riverine rings are completely uncraftable

Strangely, the similar thing could be said about a Slings: since they have no cost, nobody can, actually, craft them...
Unless they're magical...
So, Slings are magic? :smallamused:



5% is a lot in metallurgy, as in huge. very high carbon steel has at most 2.1% carbon.It's just for steel - bronze is much more permissive: 18% of admixtures is easily possible (presuming it's useful admixtures rather than mere impurities)


the article i did find said that it was probably unique and a status symbol.Unique?..
About 30 similar swords dated to around 1600 BC have also been found in a remarkable cave grave near St Iroxi on the island of Sardinia, and these have the same material composition as the Beth Dagan specimen.Not so unique...




blended quarts says "Possible Armour Types: Note that items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected."Where you getting it?
Blended Quartz: This rare, naturally occurring blend of iron and quartz is cumbersome and difficult to work. Armor and shields made from blended quartz weigh twice as much as normal and incur the normal armor check penalty. The DC of relevant Craft checks involving blended quartz increases by 5. But blended quartz is a surprisingly good conduit of magical energy. Spell failure chances for blended quartz armor and shields are reduced by 20%. Weapons made from blended quartz weigh twice as much as normal but gain no additional benefits.
Blended quartz has a hardness of 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness.


Item
Market Price Modifier


Light armor
+2,000 gp


Medium armor
+5,000 gp


Heavy armor
+10,000 gp


Shield
+2,000 gp/lb.

By the stupid literal RAW, you can have Padded Armor made of Blended Quarts


and bronzewood only lists medium and heavy armour with the with the same restrictions. it also does not say that only those armours can be made just that only armours primarily of metal can, those are examples.Actually, it says:
The following armors can be made from bronzewood: breastplate, banded mail, splint mail, half-plate,and full plate. Although bronzewood can replace metal in most weapons, chain weapons such as the spiked chain cannot be made from it.Nothing about "examples", and nothing about "primarily of metal"... :smallconfused:



i brought them up to show that force effects can be flexible and thus support my argument that force armours can be too. as for the hand spells, they are force effects that create a magical construct, some of which are animated like the crushing hand, which i brought up once again to show that force effects don't have to be ridged.And who, actually, said they are flexible?
Mage Armor may be much more like conventional armor, and armor always have some gaps
(Heck, even Wall of Force have some...)
But the main problem with the idea of bendable riverine: it would be useless vs blunt force trauma



that would be true of any and all materials you could use.Inability to craft a ring from other materials is tangential at best to inability to craft a ring from riverine

the cost is covered in the gp cost of creation and will always cost the same whether it is made of wood, bone, gold or solidified holy fire from mount celestia itself. for example. the ring of arcane supremacy is made of silver, where as the ring of enduring arcana is a lattice of gold and mithral covering most of the finger, the former costs 6000gp to create, that latter half that. material has no effect on the cost of magic rings.Actually, even DMG itself says:
Ring costs are difficult to formularize. Refer to Table 7–33 on page 285 and use the ring prices in this chapter as a guideline.


as for making a physical ring to wear, yes you can make it out of riverine, i can say that because the example armour given is literally made of rings of riverine.But how much it will cost?..





1.) it is indestructible, how would piercing and slashing damage work?Same way as +5 AC from the Lizardfolk (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lizardfolk.htm) skin is ignored.
Namely - somehow...


2.) that pressured water is the most ridiculous piece of fluff ever. realistically, you want your armour to be as light as possible so riverine should just be a thin sheet of near weightless force shaped into a desired form.Water have no matter there
The matter is: it's covered in force; why it should stick to living body?


4.) thats the point, there are very few gaps in your skin. even your eyes can be covered since it is transparent.Believe me - enemies would find and exploit those gaps anyway
Maybe, they would stab your PC in a nostril?
Or ear?
Or somewhere in the "trunks area"?
Or your PC would just goggle their eyes at some point - and promptly get a point to the eye...
Mechanically - it would be a usual combat, no extra protection (not even deflection bonus - AC bonus of your skin is "--")

[Sinner's Garden]

Do you agree: items in the game can't be crafted without paying for materials? (Especially - expensive exotic materials!)
Do you agree: riverine items are priced only by their weight (Unless armor or shield)?
Do you agree: unknown weight of a ring make it impossible to price?
So, since we can't spend unknown amount of money, - riverine rings are completely uncraftable


I'm actually arguing that as rings are of a negligible weight, you can make them with any material you like for no extra cost. That said, I don't really see the appeal of a riverine ring, myself. And riverine skin just sounds like you're asking to eat a disintegrate. Just use some magically hardened gold; nobody will disintegrate a man with golden skin, for fear they could not loot him later and wear his skin as a coat.

[Noxangelo]

The whole point of the comment was that you shouldn't take nitpicking too seriously, because there's always one greater level of precision :smalltongue:. Anyway, to get back to the original point: Shurik mentioned the riverine ring in the context of making a skin graft out of riverine, and (correctly) pointed out that even for something as simple as a ring, there's no fixed price, and you need DM approval for them to even exist--which you certainly aren't going to get if you're trying to make living skin out of riverine. The ring is just an example of the lack of rules surrounding riverine.

alrighty . . .

mathematically, no discernible weight=0.
2000x0=0 and totally irrelevant to this conversation.

the materials for a magical ring fall under it gp cost, non magical rings are art items and their cost is determined by a craft check.

short answer, rings are covered by the rules.

[Noxangelo]

Do you agree: items in the game can't be crafted without paying for materials? (Especially - expensive exotic materials!)
Do you agree: riverine items are priced only by their weight (Unless armor or shield)?
Do you agree: unknown weight of a ring make it impossible to price?
So, since we can't spend unknown amount of money, - riverine rings are completely uncraftable

Strangely, the similar thing could be said about a Slings: since they have no cost, nobody can, actually, craft them...
Unless they're magical...
So, Slings are magic? :smallamused:

as i said to ExLibrisMortis. materials for magical rings are in their gp cost. rings as art items are determined by craft DC. especially for riverine, if you go by fluff, its entire cost would be for the spellcasting service to create the force and make it permanent.

also by that logic all rings (and jewelry in general) are uncraftable and therefor don't exist in in the d&d world unless they are magical. makes me think of the fanfic, "harry potter and the natural 20" read it if you haven't. its hilarious. the whole 0gp cost item crafting shenanigans are very much used and abused only with quarterstaffs.



It's just for steel - bronze is much more permissive: 18% of admixtures is easily possible (presuming it's useful admixtures rather than mere impurities)

Unique?..Not so unique...

i don't have the article any more, and getting it was painful enough so i'm just going to go by memory. as far as i can remember 5% arsenic is about standard in arsenic copper and it fills a similar role to carbon and chrome in steel, where as things like brass, bronze and steel are very different kettles of fish.

as for its uniqueness the article i had mentioned it being unique in length if i recall.

as i mentioned before. i only found one article of limited information and usefulness, certainly not enough to make an assumptions with and certainly not enough to base an argument around. i was just saying what i found.

maybe you have access to more information i couldn't get my hands on.




Where you getting it?
Blended Quartz: This rare, naturally occurring blend of iron and quartz is cumbersome and difficult to work. Armor and shields made from blended quartz weigh twice as much as normal and incur the normal armor check penalty. The DC of relevant Craft checks involving blended quartz increases by 5. But blended quartz is a surprisingly good conduit of magical energy. Spell failure chances for blended quartz armor and shields are reduced by 20%. Weapons made from blended quartz weigh twice as much as normal but gain no additional benefits.
Blended quartz has a hardness of 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness.


Item
Market Price Modifier


Light armor
+2,000 gp


Medium armor
+5,000 gp


Heavy armor
+10,000 gp


Shield
+2,000 gp/lb.

By the stupid literal RAW, you can have Padded Armor made of Blended Quarts

Actually, it says:Nothing about "examples", and nothing about "primarily of metal"... :smallconfused:

website i looked at had it, couldn't find it in my A&EG, maybe they used ab errata or FAQ we don't know about *shrug* otherwise, seems legit, iron and quarts padded armour is a thing.



And who, actually, said they are flexible?
Mage Armor may be much more like conventional armor, and armor always have some gaps
(Heck, even Wall of Force have some...)
But the main problem with the idea of bendable riverine: it would be useless vs blunt force trauma

fluff says target is surrounded be tangible field of force seeming to indicate it is consistent.
but you are 100% correct about the bludgeoning dmg, looking for sources of immunity is on my list of things to do.



Water have no matter there
The matter is: it's covered in force; why it should stick to living body?

be fluff it would have to be like the mage armor, a tangible field covering the body.
by RAW it would be because no one thought to say you couldn't


Believe me - enemies would find and exploit those gaps anyway
Maybe, they would stab your PC in a nostril?
Or ear?
Or somewhere in the "trunks area"?
Or your PC would just goggle their eyes at some point - and promptly get a point to the eye...
Mechanically - it would be a usual combat, no extra protection (not even deflection bonus - AC bonus of your skin is "--")

hmm, to sacrifice junk for near total invulnerability . . .
and you could just have the skin go over the eyes, it is transparent, you could even do away with eyelids completely, though it would creep everyone else out.