How can one be nigh-invulnerable? ("We can be immortal")

[Quertus]

I'm trying to see what all the ways to be "nearly invincible" are. The most famous is doubtless "Regeneration + immunity to subdual damage", but what other options are there?

On the off chance it matters, this will be for the party's cohorts. Thus, the earlier it comes online, the better.

[Keltest]

Important question, what edition/game is this for? Im kind of assuming 3.5 or pathfinder, but its not immediately clear to me.

[Quertus]

Dagnabbit! Yes, 3.5. I posted in the wrong forum. Mod? (Uh, how do you ask mods to move threads? On my phone, in case that changes anything)

[Segev]

Dagnabbit! Yes, 3.5. I posted in the wrong forum. Mod? (Uh, how do you ask mods to move threads? On my phone, in case that changes anything)

Report your opening post with a request that it be moved.



So, if we can be immortal, is it important whether it is for long?



Getting them Starmantle Cloaks and Rings of Evasion would do it for a lot of purposes. Expensive, but the PCs might be able to afford it.

Having a high-level PC cast astral projection to take the cohorts with him and make them all be astral bodies would do it.

Clones of them would keep them coming back.

If you're willing to take the power hit, making simulacra of them that you take adventuring while they stay safe at home is an option.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, Pun-Pun can do it (Manipulate Form abuse).

Aleax-of-an-ice assassin will do it.

Mind switch with something invulnerable, or something that people don't want to destroy ("keystone to a kitten orphanage"-method).

Fusion + astral seed can combine abilities that provide invulnerability together.

Being a swarm (Brood Keeper's Heart) is a surprisingly good way to be outright immune to a lot of things.

[Quertus]

Report your opening post with a request that it be moved.

How do I do that? … is this something cannot be done from a phone?


So, if we can be immortal, is it important whether it is for long?

Length probably matters. Curious, though, about ideas that work, but not for very long.


Getting them Starmantle Cloaks and Rings of Evasion would do it for a lot of purposes. Expensive, but the PCs might be able to afford it.

Hmmm… that could work. Very much has the intended feel.


Having a high-level PC cast astral projection to take the cohorts with him and make them all be astral bodies would do it.

Definitely! Although the Cohort need merely be an Astral Projection - it need not be the PCs who made them thus.


Clones of them would keep them coming back.

Workable.


If you're willing to take the power hit, making simulacra of them that you take adventuring while they stay safe at home is an option.

Hmmm… alternately… "my 10th level Cohort is actually a 10th level Simulacrum of a 20th level character" wouldn't involve any power hit. Just… the Cohort wouldn't level that way.

Sounds like a hilarious way for players to play their old PCs, actually. :smallbiggrin:

[Quertus]

Well, Pun-Pun can do it (Manipulate Form abuse).

That was on my list, yes - I made this thread specifically to avoid going this route. :smalltongue:


Aleax-of-an-ice assassin will do it.

Seems likely.


Mind switch with something invulnerable, or something that people don't want to destroy ("keystone to a kitten orphanage"-method).

I've done (roughly) the former before; that could work.


Fusion + astral seed can combine abilities that provide invulnerability together.

Any examples?


Being a swarm (Brood Keeper's Heart) is a surprisingly good way to be outright immune to a lot of things.

I'll need to look this one up. But "dragon breath weapons" will still prove fatal, right?

[Rater202]

1: Lich Template(Use "Good Lich" variant from the back of Libris Mortis int he variant undead section, if party can't be traveling with evil people.)

2: Store all Lich-Cohort's Phylacteries in an Adamantine Box that has been enchanted with the "Greater Acid Resistance" armor enhancement. Optionally other armor enchantments can be added to further improve the defense, but being made of adamantine and absorbing 30 points of acid damage is the important ones(If a box doesn't count as armor, any sufficiently heavy suit of metal armor that can be sealed airtight will do.)

3: Also store an immovable rod in the box/armor.

4: Climb into the terrasque while t's sleeping, store the box in its stomach, activate the rod to anchor it to the beast so it doesn't pass, then seal the box and cut your way out.

Now, for practicle purposes it works best if the cohorts also have class levels or templates that will give them a means to cut their way out of the terrasque without weapons or a means of resisting being digested, but this basically renders them functionally impossible to permanently kill and as an added bones severely restrict.

A war-troll gheddon with either the half-dragon template(acid breathing dragon) or a lycanthropic template whose animal form has the horrid template will be immune to all forms of Hotpoint damage either all the time or when transformed.

[Segev]

How do I do that? … is this something cannot be done from a phone?In the lower left corner of the post itself is a brown triangle with an exclamation point in it. It appears on my phone in the post; on my computer, it's in the sidebar with your portrait. Click on that triangle, and you're sent to a "report" window. Just explain in there that you posted in the wrong forum and would like them to move it to the 3.5 D&D forum, and they should be able to help.


Length probably matters. Curious, though, about ideas that work, but not for very long.There's the 9th level Wu Jen spell that makes you invincible, but then kills you.

But I was mostly making a reference to Immortals, the song by Fall Out Boy (featured in Big Hero 6, which is where I first heard it). Its refrain includes the lines, "We could be immortals! Immortals! / But not for long (for long)!"

[Quertus]

1: Lich Template(Use "Good Lich" variant from the back of Libris Mortis int he variant undead section, if party can't be traveling with evil people.)

2: Store all Lich-Cohort's Phylacteries in an Adamantine Box that has been enchanted with the "Greater Acid Resistance" armor enhancement. Optionally other armor enchantments can be added to further improve the defense, but being made of adamantine and absorbing 30 points of acid damage is the important ones(If a box doesn't count as armor, any sufficiently heavy suit of metal armor that can be sealed airtight will do.)

3: Also store an immovable rod in the box/armor.

4: Climb into the terrasque while t's sleeping, store the box in its stomach, activate the rod to anchor it to the beast so it doesn't pass, then seal the box and cut your way out.

Now, for practicle purposes it works best if the cohorts also have class levels or templates that will give them a means to cut their way out of the terrasque without weapons or a means of resisting being digested, but this basically renders them functionally impossible to permanently kill and as an added bones severely restrict.

"Lich" (without all those qualifiers) was on my list. Hilariously, as "killing the Tarrasque" is potentially on the party's "To Do" list (long story), this may be either suboptimal, or quite interesting phylactery placement.


A war-troll gheddon with either the half-dragon template(acid breathing dragon) or a lycanthropic template whose animal form has the horrid template will be immune to all forms of Hotpoint damage either all the time or when transformed.

I know just enough of those words to be convinced that you didn't just make stuff up to post. :smallbiggrin: I'll have to investigate the rest.


In the lower left corner of the post itself is a brown triangle with an exclamation point in it. It appears on my phone in the post; on my computer, it's in the sidebar with your portrait. Click on that triangle, and you're sent to a "report" window. Just explain in there that you posted in the wrong forum and would like them to move it to the 3.5 D&D forum, and they should be able to help.

Ah, so it is, thanks! Reported.


There's the 9th level Wu Jen spell that makes you invincible, but then kills you.

That's… hilarious!


But I was mostly making a reference to Immortals, the song by Fall Out Boy (featured in Big Hero 6, which is where I first heard it). Its refrain includes the lines, "We could be immortals! Immortals! / But not for long (for long)!"

Lol, I know. Incidentally, that's where I first heard the song, as well. But, yeah, it started playing in my head while I was trying to pick the thread title, and, realizing that "temporary immortality" was actually very interesting to my scenario, I added in my parenthetical reference.

[Peelee]

Dagnabbit! Yes, 3.5. I posted in the wrong forum. Mod?

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: I don't know what you're talking about, this is the 3.5 forum.:smallwink:

[magicalmagicman]

hide life and then drown healing after combat.

[Analytica]

1: Lich Template(Use "Good Lich" variant from the back of Libris Mortis int he variant undead section, if party can't be traveling with evil people.)

2: Store all Lich-Cohort's Phylacteries in an Adamantine Box that has been enchanted with the "Greater Acid Resistance" armor enhancement. Optionally other armor enchantments can be added to further improve the defense, but being made of adamantine and absorbing 30 points of acid damage is the important ones(If a box doesn't count as armor, any sufficiently heavy suit of metal armor that can be sealed airtight will do.)

3: Also store an immovable rod in the box/armor.

4: Climb into the terrasque while t's sleeping, store the box in its stomach, activate the rod to anchor it to the beast so it doesn't pass, then seal the box and cut your way out.

Now, for practicle purposes it works best if the cohorts also have class levels or templates that will give them a means to cut their way out of the terrasque without weapons or a means of resisting being digested, but this basically renders them functionally impossible to permanently kill and as an added bones severely restrict.

It does create a vulnerability though - someone can plane shift the Tarrasque away, getting the phylactery outside range for returning to it?

[InvisibleBison]

You might be able to make use of a continuous item of timeless body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm). I'm pretty sure that psionic-magic transparency means that it makes you immune to spells as well as powers. The only downside is the price tag - 1.2 million gp.

[The Viscount]

For nesting abilities with fusion and astral seed, the classic is a Zodar (immune to all but bludgeoning) and an Ocean Giant (immunity to bludgeoning).


If you're using that Wu Jen spell (Transcend Mortality), combine it with Pact of Return, which resurrects you with no level loss if you die under the specified conditions. Say Transcend Mortality will be your cause of death, and you can repeat this trick as many times as you have the slots for both.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Length probably matters. Curious, though, about ideas that work, but not for very long.

Transcend mortality is a Wu Jen spell that makes you darn near invincible for a short duration, with the cost of an impossible to negate 'turn to dust and die' effect once that duration is up.

Side note, but there was a hilarious build showcased awhile back (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600206-Optimization-Showcase-in-the-Playground-The-White-Elephant&p=24195441) that could inflict that spell (among others) on enemies and then immediately end it.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[Troacctid]

The Epic Destiny feat makes you immortal.

[smasher0404]

Level 15+ Ghosts are effectively invulnerable due to Rejuvenation (being able to meet the DC 16 level check on a 1). Whenever they are destroyed, they just come back 2d4 days later. You run into the issue of being ECL 20 (ECL 18 if you allow the Ghost Template Class (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a))

[Him]

How twinky can you go with your class, but the leadership feat will get you a henchman cleric that you turn into a heal/buff boat for yourself. Just gear the henchman to do nothing but bassically survive, buff and heal you. That of course is assuming you are playing a generic class/race and you ain't playing some unique build that is inherently immortal. Closest class that gets to immortality would be monk followed by paladin.

Once the cleric can cast miracle on you, most probs should be solved. At lower level you may need things to raise CL so you can use the scrolls. Maybe expensive for your henchman.

Hey, i'm on my phone too buddy!

[Max Caysey]

...Store all Lich-Cohort's Phylacteries in an Adamantine Box that has been enchanted with the "Greater Acid Resistance" armor enhancement....

Make sure its a Oerthblooded Pureore Obdurium Box, with Arcane Seal, Dragoneye Rune, Glyph of Warding, Greater, Sepia Snake Sigil, Sign of Sealing, Greater, Symbol of Spell Loss, Hardening, Augment Object and Watchware cast on it!

[RSGA]

With a quick look around, the silliest way to become almost invincible requires these things: at least one level of Dread Necromancer, Tomb-Touched Soul, a way to persist Delay Death, and a way to act while you're supposed to be dying. For lazyness, I'm going to use Diehard in these examples. In this lazy example, that's at least five feats, so you have an example of

If Divine Metamagic is on the table, Cleric 7/Dread Necro 1 is the soonest this can happen if you use the Spell Compendium level for Delay Death. It's only Cleric 5/Dread Necro 1 in terms of casting if you used the other spell level for it, but then you really have to work to fit in all those feats or all that Charisma to have the Turns needed. Or buy the extra turning attempts.

If it's not, and you have the higher spell level there's still metamagic reducers. But even if they aren't on the table there's still a way around to Persisted Delay Death. It even gets the persistent spell to you faster than you were 'supposed' to be able to get it Persisted as of the revised spell level. With Practiced Caster shenanigans, Wiz 3/Dread Necro 2/Ultimate Magus 8/Dread Necro 2 will get Delay Death added to your Dread Necro spells, a sixth level slot, and you have it just before you 'should' be able to persist a third level spell or a fourth with metamagic reduction.

Is this at all optimized? No.

Is it funny. Hopefully.

[Noxangelo]

you could try illithid savant to nab the zodars invulnerability, if you can get your cohort to count as a mind flayer you can use an clockwork mind flayer mask for the brain noming.

Edit: a riverine humaniod skin graft and/or psycoactive skin. not sure how RAW legal it is but your skin is now a wall of force. also you can crystalise a prismatic wall as seen in elder evils: pandorym (if there or other sources please tell me) so you could go riverine skin graft and prismatic psycoactive skin.

[Rater202]

It does create a vulnerability though - someone can plane shift the Tarrasque away, getting the phylactery outside range for returning to it?This is little the only time I've ever heard of the phylactery not working if it's on a differant plane.

Also, I could have sworn that the idea behind a phylactery is that you soul is in it by default and your're remotely controlling your own animated corpse as a puppet.
Make sure its a Oerthblooded Pureore Obdurium Box, with Arcane Seal, Dragoneye Rune, Glyph of Warding, Greater, Sepia Snake Sigil, Sign of Sealing, Greater, Symbol of Spell Loss, Hardening, Augment Object and Watchware cast on it!

I don't know what that material is or what most of those things do.

I'm going to admit: This isn't originally my idea, I read it like, fifteen years ago on the od wizards forum. I might be missing a step.

The HArdness 20 and damage reduction of Adamantium means that, unless the tarrasque's stomach rolls really well, it won't inflict enough bludgeoning damage to harm the box while the greater acid-resistance makes it so that the acid doesn't do anything.

It might need some extra enchantments if you want to make it absolutely perfect, but mathematically the Adamantine box with greater acid resistance isn't going to be taking any damage inside big T.

[Noxangelo]

the hardening spell is permanent and with no real cost so you may as well.

[Rater202]

the hardening spell is permanent and with no real cost so you may as well.

Might be the missing step then, from what I'm reading a CL 8 casting of it on Adamantine would render it fully immune to the damage that the tarrasque's stomach can cause.

[Max Caysey]

This is little the only time I've ever heard of the phylactery not working if it's on a differant plane.

Also, I could have sworn that the idea behind a phylactery is that you soul is in it by default and your're remotely controlling your own animated corpse as a puppet.

I don't know what that material is or what most of those things do.

I'm going to admit: This isn't originally my idea, I read it like, fifteen years ago on the od wizards forum. I might be missing a step.

The HArdness 20 and damage reduction of Adamantium means that, unless the tarrasque's stomach rolls really well, it won't inflict enough bludgeoning damage to harm the box while the greater acid-resistance makes it so that the acid doesn't do anything.

It might need some extra enchantments if you want to make it absolutely perfect, but mathematically the Adamantine box with greater acid resistance isn't going to be taking any damage inside big T.

So, all the spell can easylly be found by a google search. It should be very easy! They are all just protections spells!

Obdurium os tougher than Adamantine, its from Stronghold Builders Guidebook.

Pureore is the purest form, found on the elemntal plane of earth

Oearthblooded is an alloy made on Oearth, which can be combined with any metal.

Pureore doubles hardness and hitpoints of the metal in questions

Oearhblood does the same, plus reduced the enchant cost and time by 25%.

Both pureore and oeathblood is from Dragon magazine, but cant remember which issue right now!

Ergo; Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium is the strongest metal in the entire D&D 3.5 game!

Add the other spells and you have something with well over 100 in hardness hp and break DC!

[Rater202]

So, all the spell can easylly be found by a google search. It should be very easy! They are all just protections spells!

Obdurium os tougher than Adamantine, its from Stronghold Builders Guidebook.

Pureore is the purest form, found on the elemntal plane of earth

Oearthblooded is an alloy made on Oearth, which can be combined with any metal.

Pureore doubles hardness and hitpoints of the metal in questions

Oearhblood does the same, plus reduced the enchant cost and time by 25%.

Both pureore and oeathblood is from Dragon magazine, but cant remember which issue right now!

Add the other spells and you have something with over 100 in hardness and hp!

You don't need it that durable, you only need it durable enough to not get digested by the Tarrasque. It being inside Big T protects it better than anything else you could do to it.

[Max Caysey]

You don't need it that durable, you only need it durable enough to not get digested by the Tarrasque. It being inside Big T protects it better than anything else you could do to it.

IIRC a level 6 party could take the Tarrasque... not the kind of security I want. I would wan't to be able to full nuke it, and not leave a scratch! Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium is the best start for that! But by all means, if you think the Tarrasque is powerful...

[Quentinas]

IIRC a level 6 party could take the Tarrasque... not the kind of security I want. I would wan't to be able to full nuke it, and not leave a scratch! Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium is the best start for that! But by all means, if you think the Tarrasque is powerful...

What ,how they could take the Tarrasque? At level 6?

[RSGA]

What ,how they could take the Tarrasque? At level 6?

I'm only half serious here, but lots of peasants with arrows and a flying platform to keep them on. So like one or two members of the party with Leadership.

[The Viscount]

What ,how they could take the Tarrasque? At level 6?

Dread Necromancer with Versatile Spellcaster to cast Summon Undead IV. The tarrasque is infamously still vulnerable to ability drain, and unable to affect incorporeal creatures.

If you don't like the interpretation of Versatile Spellcaster, a few scrolls of the same spell could do it if the party invested their WBL into it.

[Rater202]

IIRC a level 6 party could take the Tarrasque... not the kind of security I want. I would wan't to be able to full nuke it, and not leave a scratch! Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium is the best start for that! But by all means, if you think the Tarrasque is powerful...

Without a Wish, the Tarrasque can't be killed, only knocked out.

It doesn't matter if it's unconscious as long as it's still a mass of rapidly and infinitely regenerating, ray/line/cone/magic missile, magic resistant, nigh-invulnerable flesh between the box containing your immortal companions' souls and anyone who'd want to Perma kill them.

If it takes Total Optimization to even get to the box, it's probably safe. BEcuase if people were willing and able to do something like that the Tarrasque would already be dead. If the Tarrasque is around to put the box in, it's safe to assume that the people who put the box in it are the first people to have both the will, the knowledge, and the resources to op that much.

If Adamantine isn't good enough for you, then basic Obdurium makes it durable enough that you don't need anything extra to make it durable enough to survive being digested. As does Pure Ore applied directly to Adamantine (I can't find the rules for Oearthblood so I can't verify)

Applying them both to something that you either have to kill the terrasque or allow it to eat you and then survive being crushed and decided long enough to find and cut open the immobile box is overkill.

If we're doing that, then instead of using an Immovable Rod to keep the box in the Tarrasqu's stomach, you build it into a Warforged whose plating is made of the same materials...

But not just any warforged.

Assume that great care was made in it's crafting and that it has an Eleite Array specced as best for a Fighterbare with me.)

The half-dragon template can be applied to any living creature, which includes living contracts. The Warforged is then the Dragon-type, which means it can gain the half troll template changing it's type to Giant, which means that it can be a half Ogre. Type of Dragon doesn't matter, I'm partial to Red or Silver.

So, by default this means that we have a Large Warforged that counts as a Giant and that in addition to the Warforged base Chassis we have All Racial Hitdice being one size larger(important later,) wings that grant twice its land speed(which is +10) at average maneuverability, +10 natural armor, bite and two claws(with rend), a breath weapon, immunity to one energy type, Str +18, Con +8, Dex +2. Int -2, Cha -2, skill points for racial hit dice as a dragon(important later,) fast healing 5, and scent.

Apply 20 levels of Fighter, apply skill points and feats optimally using the Bite attack as the choice for weapon specialization and take Weapon Supremecy for all three damage types that a Bite can do(Bare with me.)

Since it's Giant Type, it is also capable of being lycanthrope and since it is Large Sized t can use a Huge Animal as the animal for the base template. So, let's create a suitable animal.

A dire BEar advanced to it's maximum hit dice will have 36 HD and be Huge Sized. Disregard feets and skill points from the base animal since this isn't a natural animal. Applying the Warbeast and Horrid Templates results in a Huge Sized BEar with 37 racial hit dice, Str 34, Dex 13, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10,+12 natural armor, +10 movement, immunity to acid, a primary natural weapon that deals 5d6 acid damage on top of the base damage, improved natural attack for every natural weapon it has as bonus feats, and some other stuff that isn't important.

Thus, if used as the base template for a lycanthrope, our Giant Warforged in it's hybrid form will be huge sized, have 37 Dragon-Type racial hit dice with appropriate skills and feats(chosen to be optimal for a huge sized half-dragon fighter, again bare with me,) immunity to acid, its claws will inflict acid damage, +14 natural armor, Dr Silver with an amount determined by whether we can make this count as natural or afflicted, and Str +12, Dex +1, Con +13, Wis +2 added on top of the Base chassis.

As it now possesses the Shapeshifter subtype, it can take the Warshaper class. Five levels of that give it, among other things:

The ability to produce an arbitrary number of natural weapons(all of which gain the benefit of improved natural attack and the weapon focus/specialization three) and the ability to make it's existing ones bigger. immunity to stunning and crits(and thus, sneak attack,) The ability to make natural weapon attacks with an additional five feet of reach. And additional +4 each to Str and Con, depending on how you interpret the rules 2 more fast healing and the ability to heal 10 damage as a FRA regardless, and the abilityto shift forms as part of a move action.

Bringing it on home, in addition to it's various feats, natural weapons, and special powers, our Giant Type Warforged in it's most optimal form will have 57d10+5d8 for Hit Dice, for a total of 62 HD, +14 natural armor, and Str +30, Con +21, Dex +3, Int -2, Cha -2, Wisdom +2 ontop of an elite array of stats set optimally for a fighter.

With the Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium box built into the Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium Warforged with all of those templates and class levels applied, instead of using an imovible rod, you just have the Warforged climb into the Tarrasque's gullet and live there.

Now not only does anyone who tries to kill the cohorts have to either kill the Big T or survive being eaten by it and then kill a horrific melee monster that can make an inifintly number of natural weapon attacks and then break open the box to get to the Phylacteries.

Is that durable enough for you?

[InvisibleBison]

About storing a phylactery in the tarrasque - the tarrasque's gullet can hold at most 2 Huge creatures, so if you make a pair of huge creatures capable of surviving indefinitely in the tarrasque's gullet, give one of them the phylactery, and stick them both in the tarrasque, no one else can go inside it to get the phylactery out.

[Max Caysey]

Without a Wish, the Tarrasque can't be killed, only knocked out.

It doesn't matter if it's unconscious as long as it's still a mass of rapidly and infinitely regenerating, ray/line/cone/magic missile, magic resistant, nigh-invulnerable flesh between the box containing your immortal companions' souls and anyone who'd want to Perma kill them.

If it takes Total Optimization to even get to the box, it's probably safe. BEcuase if people were willing and able to do something like that the Tarrasque would already be dead. If the Tarrasque is around to put the box in, it's safe to assume that the people who put the box in it are the first people to have both the will, the knowledge, and the resources to op that much.

If Adamantine isn't good enough for you, then basic Obdurium makes it durable enough that you don't need anything extra to make it durable enough to survive being digested. As does Pure Ore applied directly to Adamantine (I can't find the rules for Oearthblood so I can't verify)

Applying them both to something that you either have to kill the terrasque or allow it to eat you and then survive being crushed and decided long enough to find and cut open the immobile box is overkill.

If we're doing that, then instead of using an Immovable Rod to keep the box in the Tarrasqu's stomach, you build it into a Warforged whose plating is made of the same materials...

But not just any warforged.

Assume that great care was made in it's crafting and that it has an Eleite Array specced as best for a Fighterbare with me.)

The half-dragon template can be applied to any living creature, which includes living contracts. The Warforged is then the Dragon-type, which means it can gain the half troll template changing it's type to Giant, which means that it can be a half Ogre. Type of Dragon doesn't matter, I'm partial to Red or Silver.

So, by default this means that we have a Large Warforged that counts as a Giant and that in addition to the Warforged base Chassis we have All Racial Hitdice being one size larger(important later,) wings that grant twice its land speed(which is +10) at average maneuverability, +10 natural armor, bite and two claws(with rend), a breath weapon, immunity to one energy type, Str +18, Con +8, Dex +2. Int -2, Cha -2, skill points for racial hit dice as a dragon(important later,) fast healing 5, and scent.

Apply 20 levels of Fighter, apply skill points and feats optimally using the Bite attack as the choice for weapon specialization and take Weapon Supremecy for all three damage types that a Bite can do(Bare with me.)

Since it's Giant Type, it is also capable of being lycanthrope and since it is Large Sized t can use a Huge Animal as the animal for the base template. So, let's create a suitable animal.

A dire BEar advanced to it's maximum hit dice will have 36 HD and be Huge Sized. Disregard feets and skill points from the base animal since this isn't a natural animal. Applying the Warbeast and Horrid Templates results in a Huge Sized BEar with 37 racial hit dice, Str 34, Dex 13, Con 26, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 10,+12 natural armor, +10 movement, immunity to acid, a primary natural weapon that deals 5d6 acid damage on top of the base damage, improved natural attack for every natural weapon it has as bonus feats, and some other stuff that isn't important.

Thus, if used as the base template for a lycanthrope, our Giant Warforged in it's hybrid form will be huge sized, have 37 Dragon-Type racial hit dice with appropriate skills and feats(chosen to be optimal for a huge sized half-dragon fighter, again bare with me,) immunity to acid, its claws will inflict acid damage, +14 natural armor, Dr Silver with an amount determined by whether we can make this count as natural or afflicted, and Str +12, Dex +1, Con +13, Wis +2 added on top of the Base chassis.

As it now possesses the Shapeshifter subtype, it can take the Warshaper class. Five levels of that give it, among other things:

The ability to produce an arbitrary number of natural weapons(all of which gain the benefit of improved natural attack and the weapon focus/specialization three) and the ability to make it's existing ones bigger. immunity to stunning and crits(and thus, sneak attack,) The ability to make natural weapon attacks with an additional five feet of reach. And additional +4 each to Str and Con, depending on how you interpret the rules 2 more fast healing and the ability to heal 10 damage as a FRA regardless, and the abilityto shift forms as part of a move action.

Bringing it on home, in addition to it's various feats, natural weapons, and special powers, our Giant Type Warforged in it's most optimal form will have 57d10+5d8 for Hit Dice, for a total of 62 HD, +14 natural armor, and Str +30, Con +21, Dex +3, Int -2, Cha -2, Wisdom +2 ontop of an elite array of stats set optimally for a fighter.

With the Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium box built into the Oearthblooded Pureore Obdurium Warforged with all of those templates and class levels applied, instead of using an imovible rod, you just have the Warforged climb into the Tarrasque's gullet and live there.

Now not only does anyone who tries to kill the cohorts have to either kill the Big T or survive being eaten by it and then kill a horrific melee monster that can make an inifintly number of natural weapon attacks and then break open the box to get to the Phylacteries.

Is that durable enough for you?

Now THAT is some cool ****! 😳😁👌

[ExLibrisMortis]

Without a Wish, the Tarrasque can't be killed, only knocked out.
The rules aren't entirely clear what happens when you drain the tarrasque to zero Constitution (or drown it, for that matter), but it's pretty safe to say anything stored inside its stomach is accessible once you've done it, since ability drain is permanent--you literally have "however long you want" to slice open the stomach.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Vampire Lords (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) are noteworthy for being impossible to permanently kill; even if all the steps are taken to keep their ashes from reforming, if at any point those steps are reversed the vampire lord comes back in a week.

EDIT: And if you use Human Heritage, you can combine it with the Lich/Dry Lich methods above.

[Rater202]

The rules aren't entirely clear what happens when you drain the tarrasque to zero Constitution (or drown it, for that matter), but it's pretty safe to say anything stored inside its stomach is accessible once you've done it, since ability drain is permanent--you literally have "however long you want" to slice open the stomach.

Again, if the main flaw is that "something that has never happened in the millennia this monster has been alive might happen" then I don't think it's a problem.

Total OP solutions are often expensive, impractical, and ridiculously overkill.

Assuming that people actually knew about the Phylactery in the Tarrasque(Which has since been upgraded to being made of something that's between three and twelve times as durable as Adamantine I don't know I can't find rules for Oearthblooded alloys and built into a ridiculously OP Warforged made of the same metal) the odds of their being two people or groups of people who are willing to sink time and resources into arranging for an overpowered combination to take advantage of such a loophole are slim to none.

I mean, in-universe does anyone actually know the difference between ability damage and ability drain? And what deals con-drain other than blood-drain? Which usually requires a grapple.

Who the hell is gonna grapple the Tarrasque?

Are you going to find a Great Wyrm Vampiric Dragon? Or make one? Something big enough to have a fair chance of grappling it?

This raises the question of why one would give a damn about helping you kill the friends of some group of people. They can't go too far from their hoards and a hoard is harder to move than a coffin is, and mostly only care about luring in mortals to feat on and/or turn into its undead minions. You'd have to bring the Tarrasque to the Vampiric Dragon and hope that the Dragon grapples and drains it and if you didn't somehow manage to get it on it's side you' better stay the hell away becuase it's gonna be pissed at you for doing that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Again, if the main flaw is that "something that has never happened in the millennia this monster has been alive might happen" then I don't think it's a problem.
All monsters haven't died until the PCs meet them. Clearly, a lot of them die anyway. I don't think your argument holds up.

[Rater202]

All monsters haven't died until the PCs meet them. Clearly, a lot of them die anyway. I don't think your argument holds up.

Yeah, but the Tarrasque is defined as being a multi-millennia old monster that rampages once or twice a century and is considered a huge threat to everything.

If people would think to try con-draining it to death, they'd have thought of it before now.

Ignoring how horribly impractical that would be in practice: See how the only reliable source of con damage is vampires and you need something big enough to grapple the Tarrasque. And if people actually know the difference between damage and drain in-universe.

[Max Caysey]

Again, if the main flaw is that "something that has never happened in the millennia this monster has been alive might happen" then I don't think it's a problem.

Total OP solutions are often expensive, impractical, and ridiculously overkill.

Assuming that people actually knew about the Phylactery in the Tarrasque(Which has since been upgraded to being made of something that's between three and twelve times as durable as Adamantine I don't know I can't find rules for Oearthblooded alloys and built into a ridiculously OP Warforged made of the same metal) the odds of their being two people or groups of people who are willing to sink time and resources into arranging for an overpowered combination to take advantage of such a loophole are slim to none.

I mean, in-universe does anyone actually know the difference between ability damage and ability drain? And what deals con-drain other than blood-drain? Which usually requires a grapple.

Who the hell is gonna grapple the Tarrasque?

Are you going to find a Great Wyrm Vampiric Dragon? Or make one? Something big enough to have a fair chance of grappling it?

This raises the question of why one would give a damn about helping you kill the friends of some group of people. They can't go too far from their hoards and a hoard is harder to move than a coffin is, and mostly only care about luring in mortals to feat on and/or turn into its undead minions. You'd have to bring the Tarrasque to the Vampiric Dragon and hope that the Dragon grapples and drains it and if you didn't somehow manage to get it on it's side you' better stay the hell away becuase it's gonna be pissed at you for doing that.

Oerthblood: Oerthblooded iron, so-called "blood-iron," is
an exceedingly rare and precious material, created from an
amalgam of iron and oerthblood. Discovered as early as the
age of Queen Eshlissa, oerthblood is a highly magical
element found only on Oerth and thought by some to be the
residue of creation. Oerthblood is extremely rare even on
Oerth, and Irongate is one of the few locations where it can
be found and forged (see Dragon Magazine #351 – Greyhawk
Adventures – Irongate: City of Stairs for more information). By
reputation, it’s as strong as adamantine and just as effective.
Shimmering black flecks on their surface distinguishes
Oerthblooded items.
Items made from Oerthblooded metals are more easily
enhanced than other substances, requiring 25% less time and
XP. Due to the cost and rarity of Oerthblooded items, all are
considered to be masterwork. They have twice the hardness
of the base metal the Oerthblood is alloyed with
(oerthblooded iron, mithral, and steel have a
Hardness of 20). Oerthblooded metal items
have hit points equal to 1.5 times the hit
points for a normal item of the base metal's
type.
Weapons and armor must be made of a
specific alloy of Oerthblood, known mostly
to the artificers and smiths of Irongate, to
gain the following benefits. Only primarily
metallic objects gain these bonuses.
Weapons: Weapons made primarily from
Oerthblood grant a +1 luck bonus on attack and
damage rolls. A target that takes damage from an
oerthblooded weapon takes a -1 penalty on all
saves made against magical effects for 1 round.
Penalties from multiple hits stack.
Armor:
Light Armor: DR 1/–, +1 luck bonus on saves
vs. magic effects.
Medium Armor: DR 2/–, +2 luck bonus on saves vs. magic
effects.
Heavy Armor: DR 3/–, +3 luck bonus on saves vs. magical
effects.

From DR#347

[The Glyphstone]

That just opens up the new question though, of why in its multi-millennia existence no one has ever thought of Wisdom-draining it either. I like to imagine they have, and the whole reason the Tarrasque continues its rampages is an immortal cabal of super-liches who go out of their way to stop people from doing this to the Tarrasque. You take it down and try to hide your phylactery inside it, only to find its stomach is already chock-full of the phylacteries of the liches that beat you to it. Or maybe they let you in, at the cost of you swearing an oath to join their secret Tarrasque Preservation Society.

[Troacctid]

Probably because the Tarrasque is currently slumbering somewhere underground or in a glacier or something until it gets summoned by the plot.

[Noxangelo]

multi-headed from SS, take 1 extra head, make it learnean ( i know i spelt that wrong but CBF) get it immunity to fire (pyro is LA+1 and comes with a breath weapon) and immunity to acid and a means to deal with the insta-kill magic effects like disintegration.

[vasilidor]

That just opens up the new question though, of why in its multi-millennia existence no one has ever thought of Wisdom-draining it either. I like to imagine they have, and the whole reason the Tarrasque continues its rampages is an immortal cabal of super-liches who go out of their way to stop people from doing this to the Tarrasque. You take it down and try to hide your phylactery inside it, only to find its stomach is already chock-full of the phylacteries of the liches that beat you to it. Or maybe they let you in, at the cost of you swearing an oath to join their secret Tarrasque Preservation Society.

the thought of an all lich tarrasque preservation society is hilarious, i want to use it as a DM or start it as a player.

[mostlyharmful]

The issue being what happens when your lich gets killed and then wants to reform "next to" a box inside a tarraraque, there may be some issues.

[Crichton]

The issue being what happens when your lich gets killed and then wants to reform "next to" a box inside a tarraraque, there may be some issues.

I've heard similar things in various other discussions about safeguarding a lich's phylactery, but where does it actually say in the lich rules that they have to re-form anywhere near the phylactery? The Monster Manual entry just says they re-form in 1d10 days, unless the phylactery has been destroyed, but never, anywhere, describes where they re-form. I always assumed they re-formed at or near where they were 'killed' rather than anywhere near where they hid their phylactery.

But it's something that I've seen often enough in these discussions that perhaps I'm just missing some text from somewhere other than the MM entry?

[Troacctid]

I've heard similar things in various other discussions about safeguarding a lich's phylactery, but where does it actually say in the lich rules that they have to re-form anywhere near the phylactery? The Monster Manual entry just says they re-form in 1d10 days, unless the phylactery has been destroyed, but never, anywhere, describes where they re-form. I always assumed they re-formed at or near where they were 'killed' rather than anywhere near where they hid their phylactery.

But it's something that I've seen often enough in these discussions that perhaps I'm just missing some text from somewhere other than the MM entry?
The rules in this edition leave it up to the DM, but 4e and 5e both clarified that liches respawn within 5 feet of their phylactery.

[Segev]

While it's definitely a house rule, I like how dracoliches do it, so if given the option, I tend to have liches do it, too: the 1d10 days is how long it takes their will to find and animate a suitable corpse.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm ashamed, totally overlooking the two spells that in conjunction provide immortality.

Hide Life (Tome and Blood) says "Once the spell takes effect, you can no longer be killed by ordinary means: If damage or a spell effect would normally render you disabled, dying, or dead, you ignore the usual effects."

More importantly, ending it requires that the finger you chop off as a material component when casting it be destroyed.

A spell to power erudite can turn it into a power, which means no material component, and since chopping off your finger is part of the material component it is never chopped off. A Psionic Hide Life renders you totally immune to death, the only way around it is to cast Hide Life on yourself (newer casting overwrites older casting) as the spell (and thus creating the chopped off finger to destroy, ending the spell).

Arguably, Hide Life doesn't protect from natural death via old age, but Kissed By the Ages (Dragon #354) does so long as the focus component is still around. But again, turning it into a power lets you avoid that little issue and thus become unaging.

Pair the two and you are immune to death. For extra hiliarity, use a planar bubble with the Positive Energy Plane and carry it with you always. Since Hide Life says that you get to ignore anything that would kill you, that means you get to ignore the Fortitude save for exploding via too much temporary HP; so every round you gain five points of stacking temp HP. One day and you have 72,000 temp HP.

[Troacctid]

I'm ashamed, totally overlooking the two spells that in conjunction provide immortality.

Hide Life (Tome and Blood) says "Once the spell takes effect, you can no longer be killed by ordinary means: If damage or a spell effect would normally render you disabled, dying, or dead, you ignore the usual effects."

More importantly, ending it requires that the finger you chop off as a material component when casting it be destroyed.

A spell to power erudite can turn it into a power, which means no material component, and since chopping off your finger is part of the material component it is never chopped off. A Psionic Hide Life renders you totally immune to death, the only way around it is to cast Hide Life on yourself (newer casting overwrites older casting) as the spell (and thus creating the chopped off finger to destroy, ending the spell).
The material component isn't the finger, though, it's the sickle that you use to chop the finger off. Your life force will still be isolated in one part of your body; it'll just still be attached to you, which, theoretically, should make it even easier to destroy.


For extra hiliarity, use a planar bubble with the Positive Energy Plane and carry it with you always. Since Hide Life says that you get to ignore anything that would kill you, that means you get to ignore the Fortitude save for exploding via too much temporary HP; so every round you gain five points of stacking temp HP. One day and you have 72,000 temp HP.
Okay, that is admittedly pretty funny.

[Emperor Tippy]

The material component isn't the finger, though, it's the sickle that you use to chop the finger off. Your life force will still be isolated in one part of your body; it'll just still be attached to you, which, theoretically, should make it even easier to destroy.
One would think, but this is RAW!

The finger is listed in the material component line and thus gets voided by psionics. So something that doesn't exist needs to be destroyed for Hide Life to end. ;)

Even ignoring that though, Hide Life is strictly better Lichdom.

[Troacctid]

One would think, but this is RAW!

The finger is listed in the material component line and thus gets voided by psionics. So something that doesn't exist needs to be destroyed for Hide Life to end. ;)

Even ignoring that though, Hide Life is strictly better Lichdom.
The exact wording:

Material Component: A small sickle made of the purest silver, which you use to detach the body part to be stored.
This line also mentions "you." Would you say that you, the caster, are also part of the spell's material component, and therefore destroyed in the casting? I personally feel that would be somewhat counterproductive.

What you're describing isn't really how English grammar works. If we look at a few other spells as examples...

Material Component: The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created.
"The item to be created" is in the material component line. Casting the spell destroys the finished product as well as the raw materials.

Material Component: A drop of bitumen and a live spider, both of which must be eaten by the subject.
"The subject" is in the material component.

Material Component: Bone or scale of a fish that dwells in the deep, sunless parts of the ocean.
That there is the whole ocean in there. Hoo boy. How are you even fitting that in your component pouch?

That's not RAW, though. "A flower boiled under the light of the moon for a day" would all be one component, the flower, which has certain properties. You don't also need the moon, and the moonlight, and the day itself (how would that even work, using a unit of time as a material component?).

[Noxangelo]

The exact wording:That's not RAW, though. "A flower boiled under the light of the moon for a day" would all be one component, the flower, which has certain properties. You don't also need the moon, and the moonlight, and the day itself (how would that even work, using a unit of time as a material component?).

wow. those wizards do have everything in those pouches.

[RSGA]

That's not RAW, though. "A flower boiled under the light of the moon for a day" would all be one component, the flower, which has certain properties. You don't also need the moon, and the moonlight, and the day itself (how would that even work, using a unit of time as a material component?).

This is obviously a job for a two level dip in the Reifyier PRC so that you can make simple abstracts into something solid. But if your GM says it's not a simple abstract or simple immaterial it probably isn't worth it.

Also I'm convinced this isn't an actual PRC of that name because internet dictionaries weren't as big a thing back then.

[Rater202]

The issue being what happens when your lich gets killed and then wants to reform "next to" a box inside a tarraraque, there may be some issues.

That would be why I mentioned that the cohorts should have templates or class levels that give them resistance to acid+bludgeoning and some kind of slashing damage natural weapon... though I suppose that the Warforged could cut them out for them.

[Max Caysey]

I've heard similar things in various other discussions about safeguarding a lich's phylactery, but where does it actually say in the lich rules that they have to re-form anywhere near the phylactery? The Monster Manual entry just says they re-form in 1d10 days, unless the phylactery has been destroyed, but never, anywhere, describes where they re-form. I always assumed they re-formed at or near where they were 'killed' rather than anywhere near where they hid their phylactery.

But it's something that I've seen often enough in these discussions that perhaps I'm just missing some text from somewhere other than the MM entry?

I believe Demi liches respawn near it’s phylactory...

[Maat Mons]

A Spell-to-Power Erudite can't add Hide Life to their Repertoire though, because it's 9th level, they can only do that for spells up to one level lower than the highest level of power they can manifest, and there's no way to be able to manifest 10th-level powers.



A relatively cheap and easy way to be very hard to kill is to become a Necropolitan and have someone cast Haunt Shift. The result is that you only have two vulnerabilities, the destruction of the object you haunt, or a ritual requiring 10 full-round actions of uninterrupted concentration.

Objects can be made pretty hard to destroy. The Oerth-Blooded, Pure Ore Obdurium we've been talking about has hardness 90 before we start adding magic. Or maybe just go Riverine and find a good defense against Disintegrate. Best possible option, get ahold of a major atrifact and haunt that none of those can be destroyed outside of very specific circumstances.

If a dude walks up to you and begins chanting the ritual that can kill you, I recommend killing him before he finishes in 10 rounds. Or just breaking his concentration. Or leave. He has to be near you the whole time. If your enemies can do as they please for 10 consecutive rounds without you being able to do anything, you don't deserve immortality anyway.

And remember, if you have at least 10 HD and 17 Charisma, you can animate the item you haunt (as Animate Objects) and use it as if it were your own body. So you don't need to be a Psion to be able to do useful things.



If the ritual is a major hangup, you can Mindswitch yourself into an object instead. But then you can only attack with psionics, so your character options are more limited.

[Emperor Tippy]

A Spell-to-Power Erudite can't add Hide Life to their Repertoire though, because it's 9th level, they can only do that for spells up to one level lower than the highest level of power they can manifest, and there's no way to be able to manifest 10th-level powers.
Epic Manifestation, possible one of the most obscure feats around.

"Psionic characters take the Epic Manifestation feat, which works just like the Epic Spellcasting feat."
"Generally, all the epic spell rules work for epic powers as well, except as noted below for displays."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicPowers.htm


Epic Spell Levels
"Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells."
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellcasting

And once it ends up on an Erudites power list, it can get passed around via Psychic Chirurgery.

[Calthropstu]

How to be nigh invulnerable?
A simple name change will accomplish this.
Hope this helps!

Bill Nigh the Invulnerable Guy...

[Maat Mons]

Huh, I was certain there wasn't an equivalent of Epic Spellcasting for Psionics.



Instead of trying to avoid the cutting-part-of-yourself-off thing, why not use the Personal Space ACF for Psion to store it? I'm pretty sure there's no way for anyone else to ever get at anything stored in there.

Then, since you don't need to use Convert Spell to Power, you can just UMD a scroll of Hide life. ... Wait, how does a scroll of Hide Life work? Does the guy who scribes the scroll remove you appendix when he begins scribing it? Or do you remove your own appendix when you activate the scroll? Do you somehow use the same silver sickle that was consumed during the scribing process? Or can you operate on yourself with a different silver sickle?

[Troacctid]

I think if you don't have the silver sickle, you just cut off the body part some other way. Should still work—the spell will still concentrate your life force in the finger.

[Emperor Tippy]

Huh, I was certain there wasn't an equivalent of Epic Spellcasting for Psionics.
This is WotC in 3e/3.5; there is always a way buried somewhere. ;)


Instead of trying to avoid the cutting-part-of-yourself-off thing, why not use the Personal Space ACF for Psion to store it? I'm pretty sure there's no way for anyone else to ever get at anything stored in there.

Then, since you don't need to use Convert Spell to Power, you can just UMD a scroll of Hide life. ... Wait, how does a scroll of Hide Life work? Does the guy who scribes the scroll remove you appendix when he begins scribing it? Or do you remove your own appendix when you activate the scroll? Do you somehow use the same silver sickle that was consumed during the scribing process? Or can you operate on yourself with a different silver sickle?
All great questions, and RAW the scroll simply contains the material component so it need not be supplied when cast. The fact that you need it when crafting is where it gets interesting.

Strict RAW, Scrolls of Hide Life have to be personalized (i.e. Scroll of Hide Life of Maat Mons) and the one it is personalized for would have to supply the finger at the time of crafting. Where it gets fuzzy is when you use Wish to Wish up such a scroll, as that negates the need to actually craft it.

The real reason to make it Psionic though is so that you can have a Soul Crystal of it; which makes it a standard action cast that anyone can benefit from.

Incidentally, that is another one of those great tricks.

Spell to Power Erudite to make Fabricate (the spell) into a Power. Soul Crystal of Fabricate. You spend the extra 2 PP to remove the material component. You can now, as a standard action, create anything that you want. A big old block of Adamantium is fun. Of course, for the real fun you want to Wish up a scroll of Fabricate [Insert whatever you want, cities of Adamantium are fun] with Rapid Spell and Ocular Spell metamagics, shapechange into a Lilitu so that you can use said scroll (it has an absurdly high CL); that is RAW legal and lets you cause entire cities to appear out of thin air (cast from the scroll, it gets stored in your eyes for eight hours, you can pop it into existence as a full round action).

[Troacctid]

Spell to Power Erudite to make Fabricate (the spell) into a Power. Soul Crystal of Fabricate. You spend the extra 2 PP to remove the material component. You can now, as a standard action, create anything that you want. A big old block of Adamantium is fun. Of course, for the real fun you want to Wish up a scroll of Fabricate [Insert whatever you want, cities of Adamantium are fun] with Rapid Spell and Ocular Spell metamagics, shapechange into a Lilitu so that you can use said scroll (it has an absurdly high CL); that is RAW legal and lets you cause entire cities to appear out of thin air (cast from the scroll, it gets stored in your eyes for eight hours, you can pop it into existence as a full round action).
What's wrong with the existing psionic fabricate power? It already doesn't have a material component.

FWIW you can't create stuff out of thin air because even without the material component, fabricate still "converts material of one sort into a product made of the same material." It's not a creation spell. However, ignoring the material component is still overpowered, because the material component line is the part of the spell that sets the cost. So, without it, there's nothing stopping you from crafting a 20,000 gp item out of 10 gp's worth of raw materials.

[Emperor Tippy]

What's wrong with the existing psionic fabricate power? It already doesn't have a material component.

FWIW you can't create stuff out of thin air because even without the material component, fabricate still "converts material of one sort into a product made of the same material." It's not a creation spell. However, ignoring the material component is still overpowered, because the material component line is the part of the spell that sets the cost. So, without it, there's nothing stopping you from crafting a 20,000 gp item out of 10 gp's worth of raw materials.

Because the Psionic Fabricate doesn't have a Material Component so you have to target the appropriate substance.

Fabricate (the spell) has the Original material as a Material Component, and thanks to StP Erudite that gets ignored. So you just Fabricate ten cubic feet per level of air into whatever you want, transmuting it out of the ether.

It's absurdly stupid but that does tend to happen with pretty much anything involving spell to power erudite.

[Troacctid]

Because the Psionic Fabricate doesn't have a Material Component so you have to target the appropriate substance.

Fabricate (the spell) has the Original material as a Material Component, and thanks to StP Erudite that gets ignored. So you just Fabricate ten cubic feet per level of air into whatever you want, transmuting it out of the ether.

It's absurdly stupid but that does tend to happen with pretty much anything involving spell to power erudite.
The spell has the same targeting line.

[magicalmagicman]

The spell has the same targeting line.

Troacctid is right.

Ruled as written Fabricate requires you to have double the crafting cost. So if something costs 9gp, you need to target 3gp of the material, and completely annihilate 3 additional gp of the material as per material component rules.

[Crichton]

I believe Demi liches respawn near it’s phylactory...

Just re-read the whole Demilich entry in ELH. I don't see any text that says that, any moreso than the MM Lich entry does. They both only say that the lich/demilich re-forms 1d10 days after it is slain, with no reference at all as to where that would be.

It's not unreasonable to assume it would re-form near the phylactery that is storing its life essence, and it sounds like they even went so far as to change the rules entry in the later editions, but in 3.x, it doesn't have to be near the phylactery, unless I'm missing text somewhere else. It could be, or it could just as easily be in the vicinity of where it was slain. Possibly somewhere else, even.

[StevenC21]

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm

Alright, here's my take.

(1) Obviously Tippy is right when it comes to the material component becoming unnecessary.

(2) The target line is very vague. However, the text says:


You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material.

This clearly means that the material component is getting transmuted. We don't really know what would happen without a material component, because in that case, there's no actual material to reference for this line.

However the whole adamantine city thing still fails because:



Casting requires 1 round per 10 cubic feet (or 1 cubic foot) of material to be affected by the spell.

[Emperor Tippy]

However the whole adamantine city thing still fails because:
Fabricate has a casting time measured in rounds. Rapid Spell (CDiv) is a metamagic feat that makes any spell with a casting time measured in rounds take a full round action to cast. Ocular Spell (LoM) can be applied to something with a full round casting time or less.

Incidentally, you can also Rapid Spell and Quicken Fabricate (Rapid makes it a Full Round Action to cast, Quicken reduces that to a swift).

[magicalmagicman]

This clearly means that the material component is getting transmuted. We don't really know what would happen without a material component, because in that case, there's no actual material to reference for this line.

If we are taking a legal approach to the spell you are NOT targeting a material component.


A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process.

So this is what happens when we take a legal approach to the spell.

Your goal is a 100cft wooden oak statue of yourself worth 900gp.

Unless otherwise stated the law of preservation of mass and energy must be obeyed. So you target 100cft of oak. This 100cft of oak could cost anything. From 1gp to 10,000,000gp.
In addition, you need to annihilate 300gp of oak. The volume of the oak doesn't matter. It can be a tiny art figurine smaller than your hand or as big as a giant house as long as it costs 300gp.

End result: You turned 100cft of oak into a 100cft oak statue of yourself thats worth 900gp by annihilating 300gp of oak.

Removing the material component only removes the need to annihilate 300gp of oak. You still need to target 100cft of oak.

[Segev]

If we are taking a legal approach to the spell you are NOT targeting a material component.



So this is what happens when we take a legal approach to the spell.

Your goal is a 100cft wooden oak statue of yourself worth 900gp.

Unless otherwise stated the law of preservation of mass and energy must be obeyed. So you target 100cft of oak. This 100cft of oak could cost anything. From 1gp to 10,000,000gp.
In addition, you need to annihilate 300gp of oak. The volume of the oak doesn't matter. It can be a tiny art figurine smaller than your hand or as big as a giant house as long as it costs 300gp.

End result: You turned 100cft of oak into a 100cft oak statue of yourself thats worth 900gp by annihilating 300gp of oak.

Removing the material component only removes the need to annihilate 300gp of oak. You still need to target 100cft of oak.

Actually, the spell expressly lists the material component to be, "The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created." (Emphasis mine.)

Whether you read this as the spell saying that the process of transmuting the original material is first annihilating it (as per rules for material components) and then creating the new item (which is made of the same material), or you read it as "specific overrides general" (in which case the material component is, in this case, transmuted rather than annihilated), there is no way to read the spell 100% accurately and state that you are both annihilating one pile of materials worth a certain amount of money and transmuting another pile of materials of any quality at all into the final goods. The original material to be transmuted is explicitly the material component of the spell, and the spell results in the final product existing, perforce of the original material.

Given the desire to consider interaction with rules that remove expensive material components, I'm actually inclined to read it as annihilating the material component and then re-creating it ex nihilo in its final form. This leads to a cleaner resolution of the question of what happens if you use some feat or other chicanery to bypass or substitute the material component. But even if you bypass or substitute with the "specific overrides general" reading and say it's transmuting rather than annihilating, the substituted material component transmutes into the final product, or the bypassed material component means the items come from nowhere. Maybe transmuting air or something.

A personal favorite of mine - blood money (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money/) - winds up with the caster bleeding out a bit of blood that transmutes into the final item for fabricate.

[magicalmagicman]

Actually, the spell expressly lists the material component to be, "The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created." (Emphasis mine.)

Whether you read this as the spell saying that the process of transmuting the original material is first annihilating it (as per rules for material components) and then creating the new item (which is made of the same material), or you read it as "specific overrides general" (in which case the material component is, in this case, transmuted rather than annihilated), there is no way to read the spell 100% accurately and state that you are both annihilating one pile of materials worth a certain amount of money and transmuting another pile of materials of any quality at all into the final goods. The original material to be transmuted is explicitly the material component of the spell, and the spell results in the final product existing, perforce of the original material.

Given the desire to consider interaction with rules that remove expensive material components, I'm actually inclined to read it as annihilating the material component and then re-creating it ex nihilo in its final form. This leads to a cleaner resolution of the question of what happens if you use some feat or other chicanery to bypass or substitute the material component. But even if you bypass or substitute with the "specific overrides general" reading and say it's transmuting rather than annihilating, the substituted material component transmutes into the final product, or the bypassed material component means the items come from nowhere. Maybe transmuting air or something.

A personal favorite of mine - blood money (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money/) - winds up with the caster bleeding out a bit of blood that transmutes into the final item for fabricate.

You're right. Original Material means the material before it has been modified into its final form. If you don't need the original material, you don't need to target anything which makes the target component of the spell completely irrelevant. So I stand corrected. Tippy is right, Troacctid is wrong.

So Psionic Fabricate lets you create a Prismatic Great Wyrm corpse for Animate Dead. And the material components necessary.
It also lets you create 9999999999 gallons of Ambrosia for your magic item crafting needs.
Spellstitched Undead can only create one type of item with fabricate because the material component is consumed upon creating the stitch and never changed.
Rejkars can create an adamantine city in a day by spamming its Fabricate SLA.

Goddamn that is one poorly written spell!

[Segev]

You're right. Original Material means the material before it has been modified into its final form. If you don't need the original material, you don't need to target anything which makes the target component of the spell completely irrelevant. So I stand corrected. Tippy is right, Troacctid is wrong.

So Psionic Fabricate lets you create a Prismatic Great Wyrm corpse for Animate Dead. And the material components necessary.
It also lets you create 9999999999 gallons of Ambrosia for your magic item crafting needs.
Spellstitched Undead can only create one type of item with fabricate because the material component is consumed upon creating the stitch and never changed.
Rejkars can create an adamantine city in a day by spamming its Fabricate SLA.

Goddamn that is one poorly written spell!

Weirdly, no. Fabricate (the spell) having the materials to be transmuted also be the material component only creates weirdness when you can replace the material component. I was wrong earlier when I said you could obviate it...the spell still ALSO says you need the original material.

Blood money still works, because it expressly transmutes the blood into the required material component, so the blood turns into (for example) the huge 300 gp oaken log to be carved into your magnificent 900 gp statue of you. Then fabricate uses it as the material component and transmutes it into the statue.

Psionic fabricate still uses all the text of fabricate, including the first sentence: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." The fact that psionic fabricate doesn't use it as a material component doesn't change that you need the material to convert.

In fact, things that obviate the need for material components simply mean you cast the spell on the materials...and they're not material components. They're just targets. You still need the materials, unless you have something that is actively generating the material components for you (e.g. blood money).

[magicalmagicman]

Weirdly, no. Fabricate (the spell) having the materials to be transmuted also be the material component only creates weirdness when you can replace the material component. I was wrong earlier when I said you could obviate it...the spell still ALSO says you need the original material.

Blood money still works, because it expressly transmutes the blood into the required material component, so the blood turns into (for example) the huge 300 gp oaken log to be carved into your magnificent 900 gp statue of you. Then fabricate uses it as the material component and transmutes it into the statue.

Psionic fabricate still uses all the text of fabricate, including the first sentence: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." The fact that psionic fabricate doesn't use it as a material component doesn't change that you need the material to convert.

In fact, things that obviate the need for material components simply mean you cast the spell on the materials...and they're not material components. They're just targets. You still need the materials, unless you have something that is actively generating the material components for you (e.g. blood money).

So ruled as written....
You cast Fabricate on a 3gp piece of gold. And it turns into a 9gp piece of gold. And turn that 9gp piece of gold into 27gp piece of gold.
But you remove the material component... does that mean you can turn a 3gp piece of gold into a 3,000,000gp piece of gold? You're still targeting the original material.

[Segev]

So ruled as written....
You cast Fabricate on a 3gp piece of gold. And it turns into a 9gp piece of gold. And turn that 9gp piece of gold into 27gp piece of gold.Technically, you can turn a 3 gp hunk of gold into a 9 gp statue or other worked item of gold. By the RAW, which provides no distinction between raw materials and finished goods, you could argue that you could keep going, multiplying by 3 each time, but a DM saying you're not able to continuously improve on its value unless you can also continuously improve on your craft check result would be well within reason, let alone his rights.

Remember, at this point, you're not complaining about fabricate, but about the mundane crafing rules, which ALSO would let you theoretically keep transforming the gold into ever-more-valuable gold.


But you remove the material component... does that mean you can turn a 3gp piece of gold into a 3,000,000gp piece of gold? You're still targeting the original material.No. Because you still can't perform a single crafting to transform a 3 gp hunk of gold into a 3,000,000 gp worked good of gold. All fabricate does is make all the work happen in the casting time of the spell. It doesn't actually change the crafting rules; so you only need one craft check rather than a craft check with excess success over the DC shortening craft time.