Predictions for book 7 [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Bedinsis

2020-04-24, 12:36 PM

Given that we are just a few pages into what will be book 7 I thought it could be fun to have a thread with all the predictions we have regarding what will happen in this book. That way we can all look back on this thread once it is finished to get a snapshot of what we thought at the time, and what we thought was important at the time.

* This book will conclude the webcomic.

* Belkar will die.

* Monster in the Darkness will leave the darkness.

* The nature of the planet within the Rift will be explained.

* The IFCC will use their remaining control of Vaarsuvius, and unlike the previous time they will actually make them an active participant in the plot.

* There will be a confrontation between some entity angry with Vaarsuvius' familicide spell and Vaarsuvius.

* The one-page-appearance character that turns out to be an ally is one of the voices that we heard at the last page of book 6.

* The final confrontation with Xykon will be in his astral fortress.

* Xykon will find out about Redcloak's duplicitous nature, killing him.

* Xykon will ultimately be defeated.

* The circle of the planet dying and being recreated by the gods will be broken.

* Eugene will get to enter the LG afterlife, only to discover that he honestly isn't happy there.

Also, one far out there theory:

* The order will end up on the planet in the Rift, where they will discover that various characters that have died during the course of the comic have ended up.

The Pilgrim

2020-04-24, 12:58 PM

* The Last gate will be destroyed.

understatement

2020-04-24, 02:48 PM

Prediction:

*The book/webcomic will either end with Elan and Haley marrying (and all the protags in attendance), Roy and Celia marrying and visiting Celestia, or the Stick grouped around one of Sigdi's family dinners.

*O-Chul will die.

littlebum2002

2020-04-24, 03:11 PM

We will find out Haley's secret
Tarquin's empire is overthrown
We find out what Roy's Archon's quest is
We find out why the Order of the Scribble broke up
Belkar will save Hinjo's life a second time

Oh, and
Will the MitD eat Redcloak when he inevitably turns against Xykon?

Ron Miel

2020-04-24, 06:31 PM

I predict that not all the plot threads will be completely resolved. Xykon will be defeated, and the Snarl contained, but not all of the sub-plots. At the end the Stick will split up, with various members following their own quests.
Elan and Haley will set off on a quest to defeat Tarquin. Possibly with Thog as party fighter.
V and Belkar will set off on a quest for redemption. Possibly with Minrah.
Durkon will go back home.
Roy, I don't know, maybe he'll go back to the Azurites.

Soup du Jour

2020-04-24, 07:54 PM

-There will be two fights between the Order and Team Evil, one outside the Tomb (second IFCC intervention happens here) and one at the Gate

-The Tomb battle is won thanks to the aid of Hinjo, some Azurites, and one of the four nations they sought aid from (the one-page important ally)

-The breakup of the Order of the Scribble is revealed to be connected to the Snarl Cycle (a Doylist explanation for why we never learned what broke them up until now)

-The battle at the Gate is a free-for-all between the Order, Team Evil, and the IFCC and whatever their artifact is. The IFCC is defeated, but not before weakening everyone, including the Gate, and destroying Xykon's body. Redcloak destroys his holy symbol, killing Xykon.

-The IFCC breaks their own rules and actually possesses V, but before they can either tempt Redcloak or just destroy the Gate themselves, Belkar kills possessed V, probably at the cost of his life

-Durkon explains to Redcloak the Quiddity resolution to the Snarl. Redcloak communes with The Dark One, who tells him to do this. Redcloak can't handle abandoning The Plan after his whole life and all that he's done in the service of It, snaps, and destroys the last gate

-I honestly don't know how things get resolved from here, maybe the Snarl has been attacking assuming the the gods want to kill it and its planet?

-Roy defies Fate itself as the Order (and the MitD) flee the collapsing tomb, saving Belkar's corpse to resurrect him afterwards. The Oracle is shown to have quit during the denouement, unable to handle even a single blemish on their previously 1.000 batting average

-Tarquin is defeated off-screen and without explanation, even in bonus strips. What better way to defeat a story-obsessed villain?

If even half of this is correct I will be stunned.

NerdyKris

2020-04-24, 07:56 PM

-Tarquin is defeated off-screen and without explanation, even in bonus strips. What better way to defeat a story-obsessed villain?

That's what I've been assuming is going to happen.

RedScholarGypsy

2020-04-25, 07:29 AM

I predict the IFCC will attempt a ritual on the material plane, which will be warded from any good characters (Xykon will be destroyed but in his phylactery, and Redcloak dead). Belkar will get his ring of jumping back from Roy, and leap at them, throwing a rock(after a few panels of "no, don't do it!" and maybe Belkar cutting off a finger for Durkon to raise with). Belkar dies, one of the IFCC reads the rock which has a version of "I can/did not fail" written on it in Explosive Runes. Explosion disrupts the ritual, killing the IFCC. Belkar gets to go to a Good afterlife(Valhalla?) for his sacrifice, but may not be welcomed back if he accepts a raise. Oots raises RC, Durkon and Elan talk RC into plan, and RC gives up Xykon to Roy.

I love going with the long shot predictions. Lots of final callbacks and a good reason to leave Belkar dead now that he's trending towards repentance.

woweedd

2020-04-26, 07:34 AM

That's what I've been assuming is going to happen.
Yep. personally, i'm picturing, in the epilogue, a random newspaper in the background reading "EMPIRES OF BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS OVERTHROWN: UNKNOWN GENERAL KILLED IN CROSSFIRE."

Vrock Bait

2020-04-26, 04:05 PM

Yep. personally, i'm picturing, in the epilogue, a random newspaper in the background reading "EMPIRES OF BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS OVERTHROWN: UNKNOWN GENERAL KILLED IN CROSSFIRE."

I mean, that could easily be Tarquin getting a Spartacus to change things up, and that’s not necessarily the Blood General.

Angrith

2020-04-26, 04:10 PM

My predictions are:

Redcloak agrees to help the Order, seals the Gate, and is killed by Xykon, in that order.

V will attempt to save the planet in the rift as atonement for his earlier genocide. This may or may not be fatal.

SlashDash

2020-04-26, 04:21 PM

Other than stuff already mentioned:

Hel obviously loses the vote
Redcloak turns on Xykon. Monster in the dark swallows Redcloak, but spits him out because Ochul asks him.
Curly will show up at the north pole trying to take Redcloak's place as a divine caster for the ritual. Probably going with Xykon to his astral fortress to do their thing.
The 1 appearance character will be a hobgoblin from Oona's tribe (seen in Thor's explanation on how the gods depend on mortals)
Bloodfest will be restored to his true form. Most likely in a battle of Belkar vs Oona.
We find out what happened to cause the Scribbles to fight with each other
Tarquin or at least Miron make an appearance. No way is that cliffhanger in the desert remains unmentioned.
The Oracle will appear in some form or another at least 1 more time.
We've definitely not seen the last of Julia either as the whole piggybacking on the oath thing has to lead somewhere.
Hinjo will also join the action due to the Belkar issue.
Haley's adamantite dagger will come into play.
Lirian and Dorukon will be released from Xykon's soul gem. Possibly maybe the two of them do something with the gate? They are a pair of divine and arcane casters.

As far as epilogue goes, the big question is if the OotS as a party stays together or not. For individual stories the answer is most likely they go their separate ways. But... It could go the other way around as well.

Roy - Destroys Xykon and finally gets respect from his father. If he doesn't keep adventuring, he's likely to become a teacher for a new generation.

Elan and Haley get married. Unlikely to continue to adventure (assuming the party splits up). Most likely running some B&B where Elan entertains people with stories while Haley swindles them somehow.

Belkar dies. What about Bloodfeast and Scruffy is a good question. Maybe Hinjo adopts them? Scruffy was his uncle's cat after all.

Durkon goes home and we see him co-raising Kudzo while arguing with his mom about regenerating her arm.

V is a tough one. We know they still care about their mate so I would guess that they'd go back and try to patch things with them. However, they can't possibly not atone (or at least try to atone) for the familicide. So V might actually do that during the story. Maybe get access to some godlike power (the IFCC artifact?) and restores dragons back to life?
If they do, then they are most likely be the one to retire from adventure and stop completely their pursuit of power.

Jirix and Hinjo sign a peace treaty. Gobotppia is recognized as a nation and goblins start getting their proper respect. Redcloak's fate is a tough one. I'd wager him to die, but Thor hinted that he might be needed for future welding

Bandana will show up as a captain by her own right. Maybe her and Julio show up with different crew in Haley and Elan's wedding?

SlashDash

2020-04-26, 04:52 PM

P.S

Monster in the Dark goes with O-Chul of course.
If he is something... shall we say not really celestial in nature, it would be part of the Saphire Guard changing their ways and accepting other species.

On second thought, maybe Redcloak survives and decides to retire and stay in the North Pole?
The talk with Oona made it seem like the Dark One isn't a big deal in the north and Redcloak could go preach there.

I just don't see it likely that Redcloak stays in Gobtoppia as that would lower Jirix's standing and I'm guessing they are going to make a point of the two NPCs (Jirix and Hinjo) working things out.

nespunkt

2020-04-27, 02:02 AM

We'll see more of the Vector Legion.

No one goes to Xykon's fortress.

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-27, 08:21 AM

* There will be a confrontation between some entity angry with Vaarsuvius' familicide spell and Vaarsuvius. Tiamat already vented her spleen to the IFCC. This I don't see being in book 7. V beginning a "rest of my life long" quest for atonement will be in a closing panel. The divorce papers were already signed back in book 6; (or was it book 5? need to go back and check) not seeing V and Inky getting back together. (which saddens me)

* The circle of the planet dying and being recreated by the gods will be broken.
That would be cool.

* Eugene will get to enter the LG afterlife, only to discover that he honestly isn't happy there.
Eugene isn't happy anywhere.

*O-Chul will die. I'd not like to see that, but if fits who he is and what he is to a T; his death will be part of something epic happening.

[LIST]
We find out why the Order of the Scribble broke up Yes, that seems to be a necessary puzzle piece to finally have on the table.

Schroeswald

2020-04-27, 08:57 AM

I'd not like to see that, but if fits who he is and what he is to a T; his death will be part of something epic happening.

I actually think its more likely for Lien to die, or at least to some big heroic paladin thing that should kill her but miraculously she is able to survive. There was a thing last book about O-Chul out paladining her by being perfect, and while I'm not gonna call it an arc unless its fulfilled, her managing to out paladin O-Chul (presumably by saving his life) would fit that.

SlashDash

2020-04-27, 09:31 AM

Tiamat already vented her spleen to the IFCC. This I don't see being in book 7. V beginning a "rest of my life long" quest for atonement will be in a closing panel. The divorce papers were already signed back in book 6; (or was it book 5? need to go back and check) not seeing V and Inky getting back together. (which saddens me)

But we saw V looking and Inky's image at the start of book 6. I don't see much point in that unless it's a clear way of showing us V still cares.
More than just "everyone care about their exes"

I actually think its more likely for Lien to die, or at least to some big heroic paladin thing that should kill her but miraculously she is able to survive. There was a thing last book about O-Chul out paladining her by being perfect, and while I'm not gonna call it an arc unless its fulfilled, her managing to out paladin O-Chul (presumably by saving his life) would fit that.

Didn't think of that... It's actually a pretty good one.

Schroeswald

2020-04-27, 09:35 AM

Didn't think of that... It's actually a pretty good one.

To be I didn’t think of it until sometime between KorvinStarmast’s post and my post so you aren’t much behind

Bedinsis

2020-04-27, 10:54 AM

EDIT: I no longer stand by what I said in this post. It will only be preserved for the sake of keeping the resulting discussion understandable.

Tiamat already vented her spleen to the IFCC. This I don't see being in book 7. V beginning a "rest of my life long" quest for atonement will be in a closing panel. The divorce papers were already signed back in book 6; (or was it book 5? need to go back and check) not seeing V and Inky getting back together. (which saddens me)

My prediction was mostly based on the fact that I've found the fallout from the familicide disappointing. They murdered a quarter of an entire subspecies of sapient creatures whose only "crime" was being related to one another. Even if the monster manual says that they are Evil that should only work on a societal level, not an individual level, and that is something the comic has yet to address.

Or no, wait, I am partly lying. There has been an address. With the death of the Draketooth family, Vaarsuvius got to confront what they had done. My problem with that address is that it can be read as the problem being that the black dragons could be related to creatures that are not Evil, and therefore using the familicide spell was Evil. Thinking that way would however mean that had only black dragons died it would've not been Evil. What about the black dragons that had never done anything wrong? Therefore I find it disappointing, in particular since I believe that this is Redcloak's motivation: even if his kind is listed as Evil they still deserve the sanctity of life all sapient creatures deserve.

I don't know why you brought up Vaarsuvius' divorce; that had nothing with my prediction to do. Unless you wanted to make a prediction on your own and the answer sufficed as a segway.

Peelee

2020-04-27, 11:38 AM

My prediction was mostly based on the fact that I've found the fallout from the familicide disappointing. They murdered a quarter of an entire subspecies of sapient creatures whose only "crime" was being related to one another. Even if the monster manual says that they are Evil that should only work on a societal level, not an individual level, and that is something the comic has yet to address.

Or no, wait, I am partly lying. There has been an address. With the death of the Draketooth family, Vaarsuvius got to confront what they had done. My problem with that address is that it can be read as the problem being that the black dragons could be related to creatures that are not Evil, and therefore using the familicide spell was Evil. Thinking that way would however mean that had only black dragons died it would've not been Evil. What about the black dragons that had never done anything wrong?

You mean what V specifically addressed in panels 7 through 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html)?

Bedinsis

2020-04-27, 12:03 PM

You mean what V specifically addressed in panels 7 through 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html)?

Yes, something like that. Only actually reinforced in the plot of the comic, not just V having a conversation with their familiar. Actions speak louder than words.

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-27, 12:11 PM

I actually think its more likely for Lien to die, or at least to some big heroic paladin thing that should kill her but miraculously she is able to survive. There was a thing last book about O-Chul out paladining her by being perfect, and while I'm not gonna call it an arc unless its fulfilled, her managing to out paladin O-Chul (presumably by saving his life) would fit that. Ooh, yeah, Rich setting it up like that way in advance fits any number of things he's done. Betting the over. (Grr, I don't want Lien to die. :smallfrown: But that would be epic)

Peelee

2020-04-27, 12:20 PM

Yes, something like that. Only actually reinforced in the plot of the comic, not just V having a conversation with their familiar. Actions speak louder than words.

V's words on realizing that led to V's actions of completely changing how V's attitude and how V acts. Like, I'm not sure what else would satisfy what you're looking for, other than maybe V dying?

Bedinsis

2020-04-27, 12:28 PM

V's words on realizing that led to V's actions of completely changing how V's attitude and how V acts. Like, I'm not sure what else would satisfy what you're looking for, other than maybe V dying?

An external entity reinforcing the message. Someone who has actually had to suffer due to V's actions.

Peelee

2020-04-27, 01:00 PM

An external entity reinforcing the message. Someone who has actually had to suffer due to V's actions.

...the Draketooths were an external entity that enforced the message, though. They suffered due to V's actions. V being confronted with this caused V to completely re-evaluate their actions and make major changes going forward.

Bedinsis

2020-04-27, 01:24 PM

...the Draketooths were an external entity that enforced the message, though. They suffered due to V's actions. V being confronted with this caused V to completely re-evaluate their actions and make major changes going forward.

They were dead. Their perspective were not heard. They did not perform any actions. And once again one can read their suffering as "familicide against Evil creatures is Evil because they could be related to not-Evil creatures". The fact that V does not take it as that is commendable, but I still find the result of a protagonist doing something capital E Evil being that they "learn a lesson" too weak when they have done something capital E Evil.

littlebum2002

2020-04-27, 01:34 PM

Peelee

2020-04-27, 02:47 PM

They were dead. Their perspective were not heard. They did not perform any actions. And once again one can read their suffering as "familicide against Evil creatures is Evil because they could be related to not-Evil creatures". The fact that V does not take it as that is commendable, but I still find the result of a protagonist doing something capital E Evil being that they "learn a lesson" too weak when they have done something capital E Evil.

Then again, I'm not quite sure what you want. V was faced with repercussions of their actions - one of which was that they fundamentally removed the defenses against one of the pillars holding creation from tearing itself apart. The perspective of the Draketooths was heard, in the form of "we are all dead at your hand because of your hubris and your assumptions and your "hulk smash" cavalier attitude towards problems." They did not need to perform any actions, because by just showing themselves to all have died en masse, suddenly, in the middle of normal life, with a family tree on the wall connecting all the dots, was action enough. V was confronted with the enormity of their crime, with consequences far more dire than they would have ever thought, which put the very fabric of the world at risk. This was further reinforced when V was able to hear Roy et al talk about the necessity of destroying the Gate due to the defenses being completely stripped and the Order being woefully unprepared to take on Team Evil in their circumstances, entirely due to V's action (though unknown to the Order). V's crime was then even further reinforced when their only hope to stop it was immediately aborted by V's faustian payment being remanded, with the reminder that there are two more payments which will be garnished whenever the creditors decide.

If you want a dragon to show up and say, "Vaarsuvius, I am the great dragon Nomenignobilis. You have slain my mate and child. Behold my anguish!" [dragon anguishes], then I can't say with absolute certainty, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen. V has been confronted with the enormity of their crime. V has taken that message to heart. V has changed. I really don't know what would be accomplished by whatever you want to happen. How would it change V in any way? If it wouldn't, what's the purpose of it?

KorvinStarmast

2020-04-27, 04:04 PM

If you want a dragon to show up and say, "Vaarsuvius, I am the great dragon Nomenignobilis. You have slain my mate and child. Behold my anguish!" [dragon anguishes], A dragon already did that. It initially unloaded their anguish on V, and then, being an evil black dragon, upped the ante by heading to V's home and beginning to torture two children. Revenge, but the dragon forgot to dig two graves before heading out in her revenge mission.

V killed that dragon, and with V heading toward some pretty deep evil, upped the ante by doing that familicide thing. The rest you have covered nicely, as have others.

For a subsequent dragon to show up, and to furthr up the ante, would require that this ancient dragon kill all elves. Or try to.

I don't think Rich is going there. He's already covered the "I'll kill you and everyone who looks like you" theme sufficiently that he has other topics to explore.

Peelee

2020-04-27, 04:13 PM

A dragon already did that.

Ya know, I was thinking entirely post-familicide, so it didn't even occur to me that I was practically describing that exact scene already!

Mariele

2020-04-27, 07:18 PM

This is a fun thread idea. :) It'll be fun to come back to in a couple of years!

*O-Chul will die.
:smallfrown::smallfrown::smallfrown: Nooo, O-Chul and the MitD need to have a happy ending together!

Lirian and Dorukon will be released from Xykon's soul gem. Possibly maybe the two of them do something with the gate? They are a pair of divine and arcane casters.

I hadn't thought of this before and I really like it.

Spoilering my $0.02 because it ended up longer than I thought.
Most of the big things have already been mentioned, but I wanted to throw these in:

Oona and the hobgoblins side against Team Evil or are somehow important in the whole "TDO's interests and goblinkind's interests" potential conflict.
Maybe the Order spills the beans on the Plan to Oona and the hobgoblins?
Similar to above, we learn that TDO doesn't have goblinkind's best interests at heart. Does Redcloak? Expect to see a lot more of this.
Redcloak talks to Durkon before the big fight
Redcloak... umm... debuffs? (can you do that in DnD? I'm thinking of some way to remove blessings/enchantments like you can in World of Warcraft, not sure if there's an equivalent) Xykon's phylactery before the big fight as a result of reflecting on the conversation, which we'll see on screen. He Mass Heals at an important point during the fight and destroys the phylactery.
Alternatively, Redcloak can't be persuaded in any way and we see him sticking to the Plan to the bitter end.
Redcloak's niece.
What is Sabine up to?
Fyron's son.
The Oracle will be important in some way.

And just to quickly reiterate things that I think are especially important and jumping out at me right now:

Xykon will be completely destroyed.
The planet inside the rift will be important and maybe even change the god's plans.
We'll learn about Roy's plan with his archon and Elan's plan with Ian.
Belkar will die.
V will be redeemed.
We'll have a showdown with the three fiends and learn what they're really about.
We'll learn what happened to the paladins and who the invisible figures are.
We'll learn about Serini, if she's alive, how her gate is really protected.
We'll learn what split the order of the scribble.
Something will go terribly wrong in this upcoming confrontation with Team Evil and they'll be forced to pursue them, maybe into the tunnels.
We'll learn TDO's real motives.
The MitD turns on Team Evil.
Anything and everything to do with how persuading Redcloak goes.

CriticalFailure

2020-04-27, 10:32 PM

I don’t know how much more the story could handbhold us through the “alignment based mass murder is wrong” message.

littlebum2002

2020-04-28, 07:41 AM

I don’t know how much more the story could handbhold us through the “alignment based mass murder is wrong” message.

Right? Can you imagine how tedious that would be?

"We've already heard from a character who was affected by V murdering their loved one. We've already seen an entire family wiped out by Familicide whose only crime was being distantly related to someone who fell in love with a dragon. We've already seen V literally state out loud that the spell may have killed some Good dragons as well. But now we need to repeat all of those things, just slightly differently".

b_jonas

2020-04-28, 08:51 AM

Very well, since you ask.

The Giant will continue to deliver the excellent quality that we're used to from the previous books.
Roy will defeat Xykon, but this won't happen just yet. Roy is overconfident about the schedule. Something will come up that will delay that confrontation much later in book 7.
Book 7 is Roy's story. We already have book 6 for Durkon, book 5 for Elan and Haley, and book 4 for Vaarsuvius. Everyone in the order will take some part, but the story is eventually centered around Roy, and he's the one who has to defeat Xykon and fulfill the Blood Oath.
We already know that Roy has much higher than average attributes. We will find out that this is because he gained superpowers from the same magical explosion that killed his brother Eric, during Eugene's magical research. This explosion did not also create or give superpowers to the MitD, because the timing doesn't work out for that: Start of Darkness shows that Redcloak and Xykon recruited the MitD years before that accident.
The Oracle's predictions are true. Belkar will die soon and will never get resurrected. Elan will get a happy end.
Haley is not half-Celestial, her interrupted sentence in #309 has no significance for the story, and we'll never explicitly find out from the online strips what it meant.

littlebum2002

2020-04-28, 09:08 AM

Oh, wait, I have another prediction. The strip in which they finally kill Xykon will be called "Roy has 99 problems but a Lich ain't one"

hungrycrow

2020-04-28, 09:48 AM

Loki is lying to Thor about how his dealings with TDO went and is secretly trying to overthrow the other gods.

I've been less sure since https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html but I'll still bet my imaginary chips on it.

CriticalFailure

2020-04-28, 10:41 AM

Right? Can you imagine how tedious that would be?

"We've already heard from a character who was affected by V murdering their loved one. We've already seen an entire family wiped out by Familicide whose only crime was being distantly related to someone who fell in love with a dragon. We've already seen V literally state out loud that the spell may have killed some Good dragons as well. But now we need to repeat all of those things, just slightly differently".

Clearly OOTS needs to add a whole lot of tedious moralizing if ever wants to compete with the best D&D comic of all time, Dark Dungeons.

jwhouk

2020-04-28, 11:04 AM

Did anyone guess, "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies"? Because a TPK would be a rage-quit inducing ending.

Bedinsis

2020-04-28, 11:25 AM

Having slept and thought on it, I realize that I've been unreasonable. My prediction on an entity angry with Vaarsuvius' familicide appearing remains but my thoughts on the current depiction as unfulfilling is no longer here.

littlebum2002

2020-04-28, 01:41 PM

Clearly OOTS needs to add a whole lot of tedious moralizing if ever wants to compete with the best D&D comic of all time, Dark Dungeons.

Have you seen the movie? It's glorious. Also, I wonder if it will ever get spoofed in-comic.

CriticalFailure

2020-04-28, 04:14 PM

Have you seen the movie? It's glorious. Also, I wonder if it will ever get spoofed in-comic.

Yeah the movie was amazing! I heard that in order to make it they had to promise to be true to the source material and they basically agreed because it was so funny it was impossible to improve with satire and stuff.

LadyEowyn

2020-04-28, 06:04 PM

understatement

2020-04-29, 02:04 AM

Also, I'm throwing in that

*the Order will do one final dungeon crawl for the sake of book ends. Either they'll reach the end depleted to find X and RC already setting up the ritual, or they'll follow a trail of monster corpses. The art will be amazing and the spells will be absolutely crazy-awesome.

*Redcloak will die more Miko than Kubota-style (those were the antagonist deaths I thought contrasted each other the most). No one's going to mourn, but it will be disquieting. Maybe the panel will even zoom out like

Breaking Bad spoilers:
how Hank died in Breaking Bad or something, with just a shot of Roy raising his sword and then bringing it down.

*Serini, if she was ever alive, will get killed by the Snarl.

Now for even crazier ones:

*The Order will go into the planet-inside-the-rift. They'll probably wander upon an Azurite woman, a goblin cleric, and a chicken for absolutely no reason.

*Redcloak's niece will be shown living among some of the bugbears. There'll be more references to her mysterious dad than you can shake a stick at, essentially a loving tribute to those who read SOD, but her character can stand on its own in the comic.

*Elan will play heavy death metal songs.

*O-Chul will be killed by Redcloak. The goblin himself will be killed courtesy of Xykon's meteor swarms. Like, two of them.

JonahFalcon

2020-04-29, 09:09 AM

Elan will have a happy ending, meaning it'll be thematically perfect. It doesn't mean he won't die -- it just means it'll be so dramatic he'll shed a tear in happiness.

CriticalFailure

2020-04-29, 10:07 AM

- Redcloak will not die, but will face something devastating that forces him to confront the realization that his pursuit of the Plan has done great harm to his people and is not “worth it”. (Possibly the destruction of Gobbotopia by the Snarl, though I really hope not.) This may be what leads him to work with the Order. This prediction is based on the indication, from characters like Miko, that the Giant considers “redemption equals death” to be an easy way out. Redcloak’s always been willing to die for his cause; having to live with the knowledge of how much harm his choices have done his people would be far more difficult.

I’m confused how so many people are absolutely insistent that Redcloak must die, especially those who claim that he will be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the right side in the end. Like you said, he’s always been willing to die or even sacrifice his own soul for his cause.... I don’t see how him dying or sacrificing himself could be that dramatic given that he’s always considered it fairly likely and taken it in stride. It seems like a trope people really like but which doesn’t make much sense for the character. I agree that having to accept that he was wrong and accept the consequences of his actions would be a much bigger deal for Redcloak.

Bedinsis

2020-04-29, 10:45 AM

[Eugene] approves V’s use of genocide

Point of order: his approval of V's actions probably had nothing to do with the familicide and everything to do with them trying to take out Xykon.

Schroeswald

2020-04-29, 10:57 AM

Point of order: his approval of V's actions probably had nothing to do with the familicide and everything to do with them trying to take out Xykon.

He still approved of them, that he doesn't always approve of genocide doesn't change the fact that he did that time.

hamishspence

2020-04-29, 10:57 AM

"Alarming dealings with the forces of evil" was what Eugene had been told. Assuming he read the document before burning it:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html

he should have just found out about both the Soul Splice and Familicide.

Bedinsis

2020-04-29, 11:00 AM

He still approved of them, that he doesn't always approve of genocide doesn't change the fact that he did that time.
You think he did? My read was that he didn't care either way.

understatement

2020-04-29, 11:14 AM

I’m confused how so many people are absolutely insistent that Redcloak must die, especially those who claim that he will be redeemed by sacrificing himself for the right side in the end. Like you said, he’s always been willing to die or even sacrifice his own soul for his cause.... I don’t see how him dying or sacrificing himself could be that dramatic given that he’s always considered it fairly likely and taken it in stride. It seems like a trope people really like but which doesn’t make much sense for the character. I agree that having to accept that he was wrong and accept the consequences of his actions would be a much bigger deal for Redcloak.

I think he'd be willing to go down that path (I can't imagine him blowing up the gate just because he lost, although I totally can imagine Xykon doing that), but I'm just thinking that...why would the heroes let him walk away? O-Chul and Haley definitely wouldn't, especially after what he did to Azure City. But killing him despite not knowing the full extent of his development (and how much he had to go through to become so straight-edged Evil) also feels off-putting, sort of like how Nale died. The only character who knows the absolute lows and sufferings of Redcloak's character? Xykon.

So voila, he's going to be eating spells from Xykon.

these are all my opinions

LadyEowyn

2020-04-29, 12:23 PM

If the choice is between “world is destroyed” and “world survives, with goblinoid equality, Redcloak goes back and lives in Gobbotopia, any Azurites in Gobbotopia are released”, I’m confident O-Chul would go for it.

Fighting for vengeance when peace is possible isn’t characteristic of him, based on How The Paladin Got His Scar.

And in order to achieve peace, the protagonists are going to need to make some concessions because Redcloak and TDO are the only people capable of saving the world.

That’s why the new information provided by Thor was so pivotal, and is so exciting to me.

Peelee

2020-04-29, 12:31 PM

LadyEowyn

2020-04-29, 01:13 PM

That’s the challenge, because somehow they have to get the gods to make the concessions - namely, the major concession of agreeing that goblinoids should have (on a metaphysical/gameplay level, and possibly on a sociopolitical level, though Gobbotopia seems to be handling the latter) equality with the other species. How they do that, I have no idea.

That concession is what Redcloak and TDO want, and the need for that change is in line with the author’s stated principles.

And that’s also why I expect Redcloak to live, because if he gains that concession, he wins. He’s always been willing to die for that. So for it to not just be a simple win for him, he also needs to realize that he was wrong in his methods and got a lot of his people killed unnecessarily, and he has to live with that.

CriticalFailure

2020-04-29, 01:38 PM

I think he'd be willing to go down that path (I can't imagine him blowing up the gate just because he lost, although I totally can imagine Xykon doing that), but I'm just thinking that...why would the heroes let him walk away? O-Chul and Haley definitely wouldn't, especially after what he did to Azure City. But killing him despite not knowing the full extent of his development (and how much he had to go through to become so straight-edged Evil) also feels off-putting, sort of like how Nale died. The only character who knows the absolute lows and sufferings of Redcloak's character? Xykon.

So voila, he's going to be eating spells from Xykon.

these are all my opinions

I mean, I don’t think being forced to not take vengeance on someone who deserves it in order to breakthrough cycle and get everyone cooperating is that out of the question. Sure the Order would like to see Redcloak dead for his crimes but it might be more productive to do something else.

Emanick

2020-04-29, 03:20 PM

Maybe the panel will even zoom out like

how Hank died in Breaking Bad

If you're going to put something in spoilers, you might want to mention what it's spoiling, so that people know whether or not to click on it (for instance, I've read Start of Darkness but haven't watched Breaking Bad yet, so I'll generally click on spoilers concerning the former but not the latter). Just a thought.

Anyway, here are my predictions (mostly unambitious, and mostly negative ones, since I'm much better at predicting what won't happen than what will):

* The Astral Plane fortress-tomb thing will never be visited, at least not to any significant degree. It's a red herring, nothing more.

* The planet inside The Snarl also won't be visited. If it is, it'll be brief. Exploring it will not become part of the plot, although its existence will be crucial to the story's resolution.

* Gobbotopia will not be destroyed. It will remain as a permanent part of the post-narrative world.

* Belkar will die for real, permanently.

* Serini is alive, and will tell the Order the full story behind the Scribblers' dissolution.

* The Scribblers found out about the planet inside The Snarl, or at the very least Kraagor did. That's how the Order will also find out.

* Redcloak will go against The Dark One's wishes to seal the rift with TDO's quiddity.

* O-Chul will survive the story. So will everyone else in the Order besides Belkar.

* V will either embark upon a quest to make what reparations s/he can at the story's conclusion, or will lose hir spellcasting powers and reunite with Inkyrius.

* Tarquin won't be killed. After being defeated off-panel, he'll wind up in prison for the rest of his days. Amun-Zora will be the new head of state over whatever political arrangement replaces the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears.

* Elan and Haley will get married, because that's a happy ending and Elan is guaranteed one.

"Alarming dealings with the forces of evil" was what Eugene had been told. Assuming he read the document before burning it:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html

he should have just found out about both the Soul Splice and Familicide.

It looks like he burned the document immediately, without reading it.

He actually probably doesn't know about Familicide. Odds are that he wasn't scrying on V until V rejoined the rest of the party. He absolutely could have been, of course, but I'm having trouble thinking of why he would have been watching V sit on a desert island, or why he would have switched to watching V in the short period between when the ABD arrived and when V rejoined the party.

Peelee

2020-04-29, 03:26 PM

for instance, I've read Start of Darkness but haven't watched Breaking Bad yet

For what it's worth, I'm enjoying Better Call Saul far more. I did start watching that before BB (frankly, it being so good is the only reason I watched BB to begin with), so I can also attest that you don't need to watch BB before BCS to enjoy BCS. That all being said, you do you, however you decide to watch or not is the right choice for you.

Oh, also, yeah. Labelling what is being spoiled is helpful.

understatement

2020-04-29, 03:47 PM

If you're going to put something in spoilers, you might want to mention what it's spoiling, so that people know whether or not to click on it (for instance, I've read Start of Darkness but haven't watched Breaking Bad yet, so I'll generally click on spoilers concerning the former but not the latter). Just a thought.

Oh. Uh, whoops. Sorry about that. It's still a really good show? and if you planned to watch it hopefully don't be deterred by that because there's plenty of great things still going on in it.

BB spoilers:

In my very weak not-defense, I knew how Walt, Gus, and Hank were going to die before I watched it, but I still found the show very enjoyable. So, uh, yeah. Sorry again.

For what it's worth, I'm enjoying Better Call Saul far more. I did start watching that before BB (frankly, it being so good is the only reason I watched BB to begin with), so I can also attest that you don't need to watch BB before BCS to enjoy BCS. That all being said, you do you, however you decide to watch or not is the right choice for you.

Or that, yeah. I second this.

I mean, I don’t think being forced to not take vengeance on someone who deserves it in order to breakthrough cycle and get everyone cooperating is that out of the question. Sure the Order would like to see Redcloak dead for his crimes but it might be more productive to do something else.

I definitely think that the Order will set aside whatever vengeance they have to work with Redcloak. I don't know about the aftermath, though (assuming RC isn't going to get shishmeteroswarmedenergydrainedsnarledkebabed in the upcoming battle). I don't know if they would kill someone that was a really important temporary ally, but also really deserves some justice.

Clearly the answer is to call Celia again!

Emanick

2020-04-29, 06:56 PM

Oh. Uh, whoops. Sorry about that. It's still a really good show? and if you planned to watch it hopefully don't be deterred by that because there's plenty of great things still going on in it.

No worries. I definitely plan to watch it anyway; I've been sold on it ever since my fellow English majors in college gushed about it being structured like a five-act Shakespearean tragedy, with each act roughly corresponding to a season. (Also lots of other stuff, of course - it's not that I care more about Shakespearean structure than great drama or storytelling or compelling characters, but that was the kicker that tipped the show into the "okay, gotta see this" category.)

For what it's worth, I'm enjoying Better Call Saul far more. I did start watching that before BB (frankly, it being so good is the only reason I watched BB to begin with), so I can also attest that you don't need to watch BB before BCS to enjoy BCS. That all being said, you do you, however you decide to watch or not is the right choice for you.

Oh, also, yeah. Labelling what is being spoiled is helpful.

Good to know! I've generally heard people say more positive things about Breaking Bad than Better Call Saul, so I'm pleased to hear it praised in its own right.

That said, I was definitely going to watch it anyway, if only for Mark Proksch, whom I've been a huge fan of for ages. I got to have lunch with him once; one of the nicest guys ever.

I definitely think that the Order will set aside whatever vengeance they have to work with Redcloak. I don't know about the aftermath, though (assuming RC isn't going to get shishmeteroswarmedenergydrainedsnarledkebabed in the upcoming battle). I don't know if they would kill someone that was a really important temporary ally, but also really deserves some justice.

Clearly the answer is to call Celia again!

For what it's worth, in Girard's uber-illusion the Order was fine with just taking Redcloak prisoner, and since then the only thing that's really changed is that they now have a very compelling reason to keep him alive. I think they'll be okay with letting him live - they won't be happy if he ends up walking free entirely, but at their core the Order is basically a group of pragmatists, so I imagine they'll allow it if they have to. Haley might have a hard time with it, but she'll likely be able to live with it.

b_jonas

2020-04-30, 08:08 AM

* The planet inside The Snarl also won't be visited. If it is, it'll be brief. Exploring it will not become part of the plot, although its existence will be crucial to the story's resolution. You mean the goblinoids get their very own planet where the humans won't hunt them? That would be a weird anime-like ending.

Bedinsis

2020-04-30, 12:12 PM

* We won't find out Vaarsuvius gender.

understatement

2020-05-01, 05:12 PM

No worries. I definitely plan to watch it anyway; I've been sold on it ever since my fellow English majors in college gushed about it being structured like a five-act Shakespearean tragedy, with each act roughly corresponding to a season. (Also lots of other stuff, of course - it's not that I care more about Shakespearean structure than great drama or storytelling or compelling characters, but that was the kicker that tipped the show into the "okay, gotta see this" category.)

That's really good to hear! Still sorry about spoiling.

For what it's worth, in Girard's uber-illusion the Order was fine with just taking Redcloak prisoner, and since then the only thing that's really changed is that they now have a very compelling reason to keep him alive. I think they'll be okay with letting him live - they won't be happy if he ends up walking free entirely, but at their core the Order is basically a group of pragmatists, so I imagine they'll allow it if they have to. Haley might have a hard time with it, but she'll likely be able to live with it.

That was before a) the Order knows that Redcloak has wiped out the Resistance, and Haley did not take that well, and b) they realize(?) Redcloak is actively and knowingly threatening the entire multiverse or something. Two strikes.

Also, trying to Disintegrate Roy and dropping an Elemental on them. That probably didn't earn him any points.

Peelee

2020-05-01, 05:48 PM

That said, I was definitely going to watch it anyway, if only for Mark Proksch, whom I've been a huge fan of for ages. I got to have lunch with him once; one of the nicest guys ever.

Oh, you mean Pryce? Well, his name's not really Pryce. Pryce is his nephews name. But it's a really cool name, he always wanted a cool name, so, uh, I guess we're doing this, then, watching the show? I-I've heard good things, I just want to make sure that the agreed upon show we're going to watch is, uh, agreed upon, if we're all ready to watch, the show is loaded up
But no, he's amazing. Let me know when you get to the hanging chad, there's a short video on YouTube you may be interested to know the existence of.

TheNecrocomicon

2020-05-02, 06:19 PM

Predictions? Okay, but this had better not be the kind of thread where I have to spend pages defending them from being dismissed as implausible by some wolf.

The Order rush in to confront Team Evil, but something goes horribly awry, either the IFCC springing their artifact-powered ritual alluded to at the end of the last book, or the invisible coloured-voice beings intervene to break it up. Or maybe both; the invisible beings might break it up so that the threat of the IFCC can be countered.
One of the IFCC's remaining V-possessions will go off without a hitch, but by the time they use the third and final one, the Order and anyone else who's with them at that point will exploit it to turn it against the IFCC or at least make the effect harmless.
Tarquin gets defeated offscreen to make his ruin as a meta-story dictator complete ... but then he turns out to be the IFCC's promised "vessel", presumably so that they can intervene on the Material Plane directly in a body of sufficient power for their purposes.
The Order tries to get Redcloak to cooperate with saving the world from the Snarl, but he can't get over his anti-humanoid prejudices and ultimately refuses.
Redcloak will betray Xykon somehow, get slain by the Monster under some magical compulsion, then the cloak will pass to a more reasonable prominent follower of the Dark One, possibly Jirix, who is a reasonably capable cleric in his own right, but needs some time to work up to a 9th level spell slot to help. It's possible that the Crimson Mantle, being a very powerful artifact, might grant the temporary capability to provide that divine magic, possibly at the cost of the life of the user.
Serini is alive but in suspended animation somewhere (possibly a demiplane), but is so advanced in mortal age that she is limited to offering tactical and cautionary advice. After the story, she goes to quietly enjoy her remaining years somewhere, possibly along with the remaining souls (trapped or otherwise) of her former party.
The true final climactic battle will be against the IFCC and their forces, after they render themselves ever-so-slightly vulnerable by overreaching to use a vessel(s) to manifest on the Material Plane, as the culmination of the running theme of enemies setting aside differences to take on the true threat to life.
Belkar will not "die" in the conventional sense, but will "take his last breath ever", in the sense of being permanently converted to some other form of life (spirit, deity, whatever). And his transformation will be voluntary to spare anyone else in the party from having to do it.
The Monster gets revealed (as what, I have no idea) and at the end of the story goes off to travel the universe and its planes in freedom.
O-Chul and Lien eventually survive to be the seed of a new and reformed Sapphire Guard under Lord Hinjo.
Xykon gets rendered mortal by the destruction of his genuine phylactery and flees to his Astral Plane fortress to regroup and plot revenge. Then he and it get utterly unmade by a Rift getting plane-shifted into it after the successful completion of the control ritual.
The invisible coloured-voice beings turn out to be powerful outsiders in service of forces that possess orange and green quiddities, so in addition to the red, yellow and blue gods and the purple Dark One, the Snarl gets sealed away by divine power bearing all six popularly-identified colours of the rainbow.

There's got to be reams more plot points to resolve, but at that point that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Oddstar

2020-05-03, 09:32 PM

*O-Chul will die.

I really hope not. He's been through so much already; I would really like to see him get a happy ending. Considering how hard he (and Hinjo) worked to prevent war between Azure City and the hobgoblins, only for the war to happen anyway, I'm hoping that he will live to see peace negotiated between the Azurites and Gobbotopia.

Here's my prediction, and I am going to go a bit out on a limb here: Belkar is not going to die. The oracle said that Belkar "shouldn't bother funding his IRA"; "should savor his next birthday cake"; and, later on, "isn't long for this world"; and "will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year." All of that certainly sounds as though it means Belkar will die, but, if all the stories I've read involving prophecies and oracles has taught me anything, it's that they have a tendency to come true, but not in the ways people might expect, and often turn to have meant something other than what they appeared. Well, consider this hypothesis: when they made the first world, the world in the rift, the gods made Halflings underwater creatures with gills, sort of like the Shoal Halflings in Stormwrack, but even moreso; they only breathe underwater. When the Order goes to the rift-world, Belkar decides he wants to stay, so V polymorphs him so that he would fit in with the Halflings there. Then, all the oracles come true, without Belkar dying. Creatures with gills do breathe, but they don't technically draw breath, so that oracle would come true. His IRA on the stick-world would be useless on the rift-world, so there is no reason for him to fund it. You can't bake a cake underwater, so he should savor his next one, as he won't have any more, no matter how many birthdays he has. And, of course, he'll be on another world, so he won't have been long for the stick-world. Hence, all the oracles will have come true, even though Belkar will not have died.

Squire Doodad

2020-05-03, 09:42 PM

The Order rush in to confront Team Evil, but something goes horribly awry, either the IFCC springing their artifact-powered ritual alluded to at the end of the last book, or the invisible coloured-voice beings intervene to break it up. Or maybe both; the invisible beings might break it up so that the threat of the IFCC can be countered.

Are you assuming the voices are on Team Good or Team Evil in this situation?

Peelee

2020-05-03, 09:55 PM

I really hope not. He's been through so much already; I would really like to see him get a happy ending. Considering how hard he (and Hinjo) worked to prevent war between Azure City and the hobgoblins, only for the war to happen anyway, I'm hoping that he will live to see peace negotiated between the Azurites and Gobbotopia.

Here's my prediction, and I am going to go a bit out on a limb here: Belkar is not going to die. The oracle said that Belkar "shouldn't bother funding his IRA"; "should savor his next birthday cake"; and, later on, "isn't long for this world"; and "will draw his last breath--ever--before the end of the year." All of that certainly sounds as though it means Belkar will die, but, if all the stories I've read involving prophecies and oracles has taught me anything, it's that they have a tendency to come true, but not in the ways people might expect, and often turn to have meant something other than what they appeared. Well, consider this hypothesis: when they made the first world, the world in the rift, the gods made Halflings underwater creatures with gills, sort of like the Shoal Halflings in Stormwrack, but even moreso; they only breathe underwater. When the Order goes to the rift-world, Belkar decides he wants to stay, so V polymorphs him so that he would fit in with the Halflings there. Then, all the oracles come true, without Belkar dying. Creatures with gills do breathe, but they don't technically draw breath, so that oracle would come true. His IRA on the stick-world would be useless on the rift-world, so there is no reason for him to fund it. You can't bake a cake underwater, so he should savor his next one, as he won't have any more, no matter how many birthdays he has. And, of course, he'll be on another world, so he won't have been long for the stick-world. Hence, all the oracles will have come true, even though Belkar will not have died.

The Oracle does not like Belkar and seems pleased he will be gone soon. Why would he be pleased for Belkar being underwater?

Squire Doodad

2020-05-03, 10:03 PM

The Oracle does not like Belkar and seems pleased he will be gone soon. Why would he be pleased for Belkar being underwater?

Belkar is in the riftworld, and underwater at that. The Oracle never has to talk to him ever again, and no one will ever be able to bring Belkar back to the OOtS world, even with True Resurrection.

Prophecy fulfilled

jwhouk

2020-05-04, 11:33 AM

Oddstar

2020-05-04, 10:43 PM

An odd one, but one that I think may happen: One of the Eastern Gods (to us, the Olympians) did manage to survive the Snarl's initial wrath, but has become so weak that they are unrecognizable. Until something happens that releases their true nature.
Even if one of them had survived somehow, he would have had no worshipers for many thousands of years now, meaning that he would have starved eons ago. Unless he has worshipers on the world within the rift.

Oddstar

2020-05-04, 11:22 PM

My predictions:

- Redcloak will end up working with the protagonists to save the world. I think this because the new information provided by Thor definitively switched to plot direction from “kill bad guys, restore status quo” to “find common ground with enemies, address longstanding social injustices that endanger the fabric of the world, create a better status quo”. There were elements pointing in that direction before, but making The Dark One and/or Redcloak indispensable to the Order’s victory confirmed that plot direction in my mind. And if one of them has to help the Order, it’s more dramatic for it to be Redcloak, a major character, than The Dark One, who’s been offscreen the whole time.

- Redcloak will not die, but will face something devastating that forces him to confront the realization that his pursuit of the Plan has done great harm to his people and is not “worth it”. (Possibly the destruction of Gobbotopia by the Snarl, though I really hope not.) This may be what leads him to work with the Order. This prediction is based on the indication, from characters like Miko, that the Giant considers “redemption equals death” to be an easy way out. Redcloak’s always been willing to die for his cause; having to live with the knowledge of how much harm his choices have done his people would be far more difficult.

I think we may already know the answer to this one, don't we? The thing that I think would simultaneously devastate Redcloak while also going a long way to bringing him around to working with the Order would be the final destruction of Xykon. Consider the ramifications of that: first, the plan would be stalled indefinitely, because he needs an arcane caster to make it work. If he loses his arcane caster, he cannot carry out the plan--at least not unless and until he finds another arcane caster willing to cooperate with him, which could take many years if it could be done at all--so he has a strong incentive to listen to and consider alternatives. Psychologically speaking, consider everything Redcloak has sacrificed to preserve his alliance with Xykon. If Right-Eye was to be believed, it was the ultimate success of the plan, and Xykon's role in that, that justified all those sacrifices in Redcloak's mind, and if Xykon was to be believed, it was Redcloak's continued loyalty to Xykon that allowed him to continue pretending that he had had no choice in the crimes he committed. If Xykon is destroyed, especially if he is destroyed right in front of Kraagor's gate, then all that comes crashing down. Redcloak has to face that it was all for nothing. That could destroy him, but I think he is too resilient for that. If Roy had succeeded in destroying Xykon in the dungeon of Dorukan, when Redcloak was at his lowest, then it might have, but he has recovered since then, and he seems much more resilient now. So I think that, psychologically speaking, Xykon's destruction will also be the thing that gets Redcloak willing to listen to alternatives. This, incidentally, was why I think Roy was right to reject Durkon's proposal to open negotiations with Redcloak now: Redcloak will not be willing to listen until Xykon has been destroyed.

- Thor’s plan will be heavily modified. Right now it’s not offering any incentives to Redcloak or TDO; it will have to be changed to offer the goblinoids equality, i.e. a major change in the metaphysical status quo. This change will make TDO a fellow “creator” of the current world, causing it to be made of 4 colours.

I don't think that would be a modification, heavy or otherwise. My interpretation of Thor's instructions to Durkon was that he was giving him pretty much carte blanche to offer Redcloak whatever it would take to close the deal. If you are told that the fate of the entire universe, now and for all time, depends on your making a deal with someone, and you are not given any limits on what you can offer that person to secure his cooperation in saving the universe, then the logical conclusion is that you can offer whatever it takes.

-Durkon, Minrah, Belkar, amd V may all be crucial to convincing Redcloak to work with the Order. Belkar’s conversations with Minrah and Durkon have dwelt heavily on the idea that making evil choices in the past doesn’t mean you have to continue yo make them, which is at the core of Redcloak’s character arc.
I like that one, but I notice that you did not explain Vaarsuvius' inclusion on your list. But I do think that Vaarsuvius belongs there, because he, more than any other member of the Order, has faced the consequences of treating sentient beings as bundles of XP. Vaarsuvius murdered that young black dragon because he saw him as nothing more than a bundle of XP guarding treasure, not as a person with feelings or hopes, much less a mother who loved him, and that came back to bite Vaarsuvius in a big way. And since Vaarsuvius is in desperate need of redemption for the familicide, then perhaps the way for him to find it is in confronting the monstrous crime committed against the goblins by endless generations of adventurers who slaughtered them for XP.

LadyEowyn

2020-05-05, 04:25 PM

Oddstar

2020-05-05, 07:01 PM

@Oddstar: All good points! I wasn’t thinking along the lines of the Order killing Xykon being the thing that prompted Redcloak to switch sides, because it didn’t seem like the Order would have a decent shot at killing Xykon while he and Redcloak were still allied, due to differences in power. However, intervention from the MITD could have a major impact in that regard. So I agree that’s a good possibility.

I hadn’t read Thor’s mission that way but it does make sense. I’m still expecting some conflict in goals between the Order and the deities before this ends.

I agree on the role of V.

Thank you. That's very kind of you to say. I think you are almost certainly right about conflict between the deities' goals and Roy's before it is all over. I do think that the Order has a chance against Redcloak and Xykon together, though, because, for all their power, they are both primary spellcasters and rely heavily on their magic and supernatural powers. So while I'm not saying that this is something that I predict will happen, it is something that I would like to see happen, because I think it would be fitting: in the final battle, Vaarsuvius casts (and maybe Durkon too, but it's an eighth-level spell for clerics and I'm not sure whether Durkon can cast eight-level spells, whereas it's only sixth-level for wizards) Anti-Magic Field. Maybe while saying something like 'Someone once told me that spells don't equal power, but that power equals power. But it occurs to me that if we turn the magic off, you become a fragile bag of bones, while Roy is still a highly trained warrior.' And then Roy proceeds to beat Xykon to powder while the rest of the Order takes Redcloak prisoner (I am assuming that Monster-san won't fight them if O-Chul is with them, and it also seems that Oona is not particularly dedicated to Redcloak and Xykon's cause, so she will probably surrender or run away if given the opportunity, at least once the fight is going against them). I would like that not just because it would be some nice callbacks to previous events, but because it would show how Vaarsuvius had learned from his past mistakes. In the past, V was obsessed with achieving supreme arcane power; it would be fitting, I think, if the most useful thing for V to do in the final battle would be to cast one spell to shut down all the arcane power, and then for the rest of the fight to be a non-magical melee. It would also show everyone the great vulnerability of spellcasters and the importance of melee capability, which has been an important goal for Roy. It is also the case that Team Evil's big potential vulnerability to the Order is that the Order has much more melee power than Team Evil does (at least if you subtract Monster-chan, which I think has been O-Chul's whole plot arc).

I would also like to say something that is maybe more of a meta-prediction, in that it is more about how this whole story will come to be understood when it is all over. For most of the story, we have thought that Redcloak was one of the chief villains, but ever since Thor's revelation (pardon the pun) to Durkon and Minrah, it has become clear that Redcloak is the hero of the story. Redcloak is going to save the universe by stopping the Snarl and ending the cycle of destruction forever. The Order is just guiding him to his destiny. What that means is that, when we look back at the whole tale, all the things that we thought were catastrophic defeats for the Order will actually be revealed to be necessary steps in the process of salvation. At the time, it seemed like a disaster that the Order failed to prevent Redcloak from escaping from the Dungeon of Dorukan. If they had, they could have destroyed Xykon's phylactery then and there, but if that had happened, it would have been too soon for Redcloak to bear the psychological burden, and he would not have been able to save the world. At the time, it seemed like a disaster that Miko prevented Soon from killing Redcloak in Hinjo's throne-room: if only he had, the threat would have been ended and Azure City would have been saved, but, again, with Redcloak dead, there would have been no one to save the world. Even Durkon's death at the fangs of Malack and everything that followed had to happen, because Durkon needed to go before Thor in the afterlife knowing about the Snarl. None of those events were defeats; they were all victories, because they were key steps in getting the hero of the story where he needed to go. That, I predict, is how it will all be seen when it's all over.

understatement

2020-05-05, 08:03 PM

[...] At the time, it seemed like a disaster that the Order failed to prevent Redcloak from escaping from the Dungeon of Dorukan. If they had, they could have destroyed Xykon's phylactery then and there, but if that had happened, it would have been too soon for Redcloak to bear the psychological burden, and he would not have been able to save the world. At the time, it seemed like a disaster that Miko prevented Soon from killing Redcloak in Hinjo's throne-room: if only he had, the threat would have been ended and Azure City would have been saved, but, again, with Redcloak dead, there would have been no one to save the world. Even Durkon's death at the fangs of Malack and everything that followed had to happen, because Durkon needed to go before Thor in the afterlife knowing about the Snarl. None of those events were defeats; they were all victories, because they were key steps in getting the hero of the story where he needed to go. That, I predict, is how it will all be seen when it's all over.

Wow, I was rereading Miko's death-arc yesterday and those are exactly my thoughts. I'll even throw in a guess that Redcloak will serve as some sort of living capture-the-flag (or king of the hill? I dunno) , where the Order tries to keep him alive even though he wouldn't know why.

I do think Roy will be the one to land the final blow on Xykon, but the antimagic field also hugely cancels some of the Order's advantages (and in any case V would become really, really vulnerable). Who knows.

hungrycrow

2020-05-06, 02:57 PM

I would also like to say something that is maybe more of a meta-prediction, in that it is more about how this whole story will come to be understood when it is all over. For most of the story, we have thought that Redcloak was one of the chief villains, but ever since Thor's revelation (pardon the pun) to Durkon and Minrah, it has become clear that Redcloak is the hero of the story. Redcloak is going to save the universe by stopping the Snarl and ending the cycle of destruction forever. The Order is just guiding him to his destiny. What that means is that, when we look back at the whole tale, all the things that we thought were catastrophic defeats for the Order will actually be revealed to be necessary steps in the process of salvation. At the time, it seemed like a disaster that the Order failed to prevent Redcloak from escaping from the Dungeon of Dorukan. If they had, they could have destroyed Xykon's phylactery then and there, but if that had happened, it would have been too soon for Redcloak to bear the psychological burden, and he would not have been able to save the world. At the time, it seemed like a disaster that Miko prevented Soon from killing Redcloak in Hinjo's throne-room: if only he had, the threat would have been ended and Azure City would have been saved, but, again, with Redcloak dead, there would have been no one to save the world. Even Durkon's death at the fangs of Malack and everything that followed had to happen, because Durkon needed to go before Thor in the afterlife knowing about the Snarl. None of those events were defeats; they were all victories, because they were key steps in getting the hero of the story where he needed to go. That, I predict, is how it will all be seen when it's all over.

Ultimately it's up to the Dark One, not Redcloak, whether this all works out. If Redcloak had died earlier, Thor would have had even more time to try and reach out to TDO and make a deal.

Oddstar

2020-05-06, 05:37 PM

Wow, I was rereading Miko's death-arc yesterday and those are exactly my thoughts. I'll even throw in a guess that Redcloak will serve as some sort of living capture-the-flag (or king of the hill? I dunno) , where the Order tries to keep him alive even though he wouldn't know why.

Yeah, I took a few levels of Psion a few years back.

Ultimately it's up to the Dark One, not Redcloak, whether this all works out. If Redcloak had died earlier, Thor would have had even more time to try and reach out to TDO and make a deal.

Thor can't reach out to the Dark One at all. That was the whole point of why he needs Durkon to convince Redcloak. And he couldn't give Durkon that mission until Durkon already knew about the Snarl and then went to the afterlife, which required first that Durkon be taken with the rest of the Order before Shojo, and then for Durkon to die.

Squire Doodad

2020-05-06, 09:53 PM

An odd one, but one that I think may happen: One of the Eastern Gods (to us, the Olympians) did manage to survive the Snarl's initial wrath, but has become so weak that they are unrecognizable. Until something happens that releases their true nature.

That has been discussed, but given the...dietary requirements of gods, as well as Thor particularly stating that their "light passed from the multiverse long ago" indicates that they are, indeed, very long gone. It would also be pretty much a Deus Ex Machina in comparison to Redcloak having a new perspective on life.

It's an interesting prospect, but I don't really see it happening.

Adun

2020-05-08, 10:40 AM

We will get to know V's gender.

Peelee

2020-05-08, 11:01 AM

We will get to know V's gender.

Given the author's commentary in the last book, that is one bold guess.

Schroeswald

2020-05-08, 11:23 AM

Given the author's commentary in the last book, that is one bold guess.

It’s very bold, because the commentaries have already told us V’s gender, they’re genderqueer, as is typical in elven society (I personally would say that based on their opinions and caring of gender the variety of genderqueer is agender but that’s not explicit at all).

Peelee

2020-05-08, 11:27 AM

It’s very bold, because the commentaries have already told us V’s gender, they’re genderqueer, as is typical in elven society (I personally would say that based on their opinions and caring of gender the variety of genderqueer is agender but that’s not explicit at all).

I was kind of riffing on my favorite line in Better Call Saul there.

[note: In a previous meeting, Jimmy intentionally spilled coffee on Detective Abbasi so Ehrmantraut could furtively steal Abassi's notepad out of his pocket.]

DETECTIVE ABBASI: Hand it over.

JIMMY: Now, before that happens-

DETECTIVE ABBASI: Hand it over.

JIMMY: No. Hey. I've got it right here.

Jimmy reaches into his jacket pocket and pulls out a notepad.

JIMMY: Is this it?

Detective Abbasi quickly snatches the notepad from Jimmy.

JIMMY: I'll take that as a yes. Very well. Mystery solved.

DETECTIVE ABBASI: You know, I could take you into custody right now, you son of a bitch. Both of you.

JIMMY: Whoa, whoa. Where's this coming from?

DETECTIVE ABBASI: You're the one who spilled the coffee, you ambulance-chasing piece of ****!

JIMMY: Can we dial it down, you know, just a notch? Look, 45 minutes ago, I'm sound asleep. I get a call from Mr. Ehrmantraut. He's concerned. He's getting threatening voicemails from you accusing him of petty theft. I tell him, "hey, we're gonna nip this in the bud. I don't care what the hell time it is. We're gonna go talk this thing out." And walking across the parking lot, just now boom there's a notepad, plain as day, lying on the asphalt, where I can only surmise you accidentally dropped it, Detective. Now, guys, that's that's all we know.

DETECTIVE ABBASI: Let me tell you something, Slick... wait till I get you back to Philadelphia.

JIMMY: I'm confused. The state of Pennsylvania can extradite people for returning lost property? Wow, that is one bold legislature.

Emanick

2020-05-08, 01:16 PM

The Oracle does not like Belkar and seems pleased he will be gone soon. Why would he be pleased for Belkar being underwater?

Well, for starters, he could be glad that the world is rid of Belkar. Also, Belkar might grow to hate RiftWorld soon after the Order leaves but be unable to return to his home planet at that point, meaning that he spends the rest of his life trapped in a place where he's miserable.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't buy the theory, just trying to figure out a way it could conceivably make any sense at all.

Oh, you mean Pryce? Well, his name's not really Pryce. Pryce is his nephews name. But it's a really cool name, he always wanted a cool name, so, uh, I guess we're doing this, then, watching the show? I-I've heard good things, I just want to make sure that the agreed upon show we're going to watch is, uh, agreed upon, if we're all ready to watch, the show is loaded up
But no, he's amazing. Let me know when you get to the hanging chad, there's a short video on YouTube you may be interested to know the existence of.

Oh, I definitely will! Depending on which show I decide to watch next, I'll hopefully get to it by this fall. Looking forward to it!

CriticalFailure

2020-05-08, 11:24 PM

I’m pretty sure he’s sAid it won’t be revealed.

littlebum2002

2020-05-12, 07:34 AM

I really hope not. He's been through so much already; I would really like to see him get a happy ending.

He's a Paladin, it is very possible he dies and still gets a happy ending.

Mox

2020-05-12, 12:25 PM

He's a Paladin, it is very possible he dies and still gets a happy ending.

*O'chul dies and the MITD becomes a paladin to follow his example

CriticalFailure

2020-05-13, 01:38 AM

*O'chul dies and the MITD becomes a paladin to follow his example

That would be adorable and MiTD would be one badass paladin.

Darth Paul

2020-05-13, 11:35 AM

My sole (subject to updates) prediction:

The MitD will be instrumental in defeating Xykon, and it will come about in something like this wise;

During their confrontation, Team Evil and the OOTS will be evenly matched. Suddenly, Oona and her bugbears intervene, threatening disaster. But the cavalry arrive, in the form of the Azurites, specifically including Hinjo (so Belkar can fulfill his bonus-strip prophecy and save his life one more time) and O-Chul.

Xykon, who holds a grudge against O-Chul for escaping him before, will go all-out to kill him this time, triggering the MitD to come out of the shadows to the rescue, not only revealing himself but also delivering an epic beat-down to Xykon, not only physically but verbally, culminating with:

:mitd: YOU!! smash ARE!! smash NOT! smash MY! smash FRIEND!!!

Leaving it to a stunned Roy to deliver a coup de grace and then destroy the phylactery, when MitD rushes to succour O-Chul.

Anyway, I think this would be a fitting wrap-up to MitD and O-Chul's friendship arc.

KorvinStarmast

2020-05-13, 11:42 AM

Unless he has worshipers on the world within the rift. Cha Ching; fun speculations of the world in the rift are fun. I like this one.

Anyway, I think this would be a fitting wrap-up to MitD and O-Chul's friendship arc. That would be cool.

Vrock Bait

2020-05-13, 01:49 PM

No way this is the final battle. If the entirely of Book 7 is just War and XPs with only like 12 people, I’m ragequitting the Internet.

EyethatBinds

2020-05-14, 07:14 AM

The comic will go unfinished and abandoned, rendering all speculation pointless.

Edreyn

2020-05-15, 07:30 AM

My thoughts:

Belkar will survive. Prophecy will unfold in some unexpected way, without him actually dying. Neither he will become a deity, vampire or another creature. Oracle will be upset or angry, but won't be able to do anything.

MitD will be revealed as a specific known creature, but it won't be anything people tried to guess so far. He will survive and possibly join one of good teams

Xykon will obviously be defeated, but Redcloak might survive and become the leader of goblin community, that will be accepted as equal by other nations

Snarl will be permanently "shut down" or maybe pacified and stop being a threat, but forever, in any case

O-Chul, Lien and other named paladins will survive

Tarquin will live and stay on the throne. He isn't one of critical antagonists

The lizard vampire that turned Durkon will be punished and killed, but not necessary by Order

Dark One will be accepted by other deities

Banjo will also join pantheon as new deity

Evil trio of demons won't be shown again, and even if they will, they won't have any impact. They will survive and continue to plot, but without consequences. Same about Hel and other supernatural evil entities I forgot about.

The epilogue will be with everyone being old, married with relevant pairs from story , and having children and grandchildren, heroes telling stories about the past, and children not believing them.
This includes Belkar and MitD.

Vrock Bait

2020-05-15, 08:25 AM

The lizard vampire that turned Durkon will be punished and killed, but not necessary by Order

About that.... Nale killed Malack a while ago already.

Edreyn

2020-05-15, 09:22 AM

About that.... Nale killed Malack a while ago already.

I have a bad memory then. :smallfrown:
Thanks for telling me.

Vrock Bait

2020-05-15, 11:01 PM

I have a bad memory then. :smallfrown:
Thanks for telling me.

Don’t worry about it, I hadn’t realized that the Frontarch of Hel was a different character from Poncho Lady until I re-read the arc for the third time.

TheNecrocomicon

2020-05-20, 11:53 PM

Are you assuming the voices are on Team Good or Team Evil in this situation?

Neither. To paraphrase Treebeard, they are on no one's side, because no one is on their side. At least, not yet.

Belkar will survive. Prophecy will unfold in some unexpected way, without him actually dying. Neither he will become a deity, vampire or another creature. Oracle will be upset or angry, but won't be able to do anything.

I just had a bizarre thought. What if "take his last breath -- ever" (the only phrase that was officially "on the record" by the Oracle) means commit his last murder, ever? That Belkar, originally the unrepentant murderer, cements his character arc and alignment shift by giving up killing forever?

I know it's improbable, but it isn't out of the question. And it would be awesome.

Peelee

2020-05-20, 11:59 PM

I just had a bizarre thought. What if "take his last breath -- ever" (the only phrase that was officially "on the record" by the Oracle) means commit his last murder, ever? That Belkar, originally the unrepentant murderer, cements his character arc and alignment shift by giving up killing forever?

I know it's improbable, but it isn't out of the question. And it would be awesome.

The rest of the comments wouldn't be addressed by that.

TheNecrocomicon

2020-05-21, 12:04 AM

The rest of the comments wouldn't be addressed by that.

Receiving or undertaking exile to somewhere (perhaps said Snarlworld) where there are no IRAs, birthday cakes or "this world" would take care of the rest, underwater or terrestrial then being of no consequence.

Peelee

2020-05-21, 07:55 AM

Receiving or undertaking exile to somewhere (perhaps said Snarlworld) where there are no IRAs, birthday cakes or "this world" would take care of the rest, underwater or terrestrial then being of no consequence.

True, but fairly tortuous.

Edreyn

2020-05-21, 08:51 AM

That's how it will be. The Order will make a surprise party to Belkar's birthday, which will be just one day before the end of the year. To make him really happy, they will prepare a unique present, buy for him one of a kind blade named "His Last Breath Ever". They won't bother checking what it is exactly, just wrap it as a present.

Belkar will enter the room, everyone will shout "Surprise!" then Roy will give him the present. Belkar will happily draw the "His Last Breath Ever" from it's scabbard... just to find out it's generic kitchen knife. He'll be angry, but before he actually says something, Haley will bring in the cake- a true masterpece made by greatest confectioner in stick-world. Since Belkar is already holding kitchen knife, he'll decide to cut the cake with it. As the "His Last Breath Ever" touches the cake, the cake will turn into a diamond! Belkar will try the knife on other food, and everything will turn to diamonds! But when Belkar touches food with another item, or with his hands, it will remain edible. Only the magic knife "His Last Breath Ever"turns things to diamonds. Belkar will be very happy, possessing such an item, he will never have to worry about saving money for old age! No need to worry about IRA, ever! Who cares that he won't savior his birthday cake. And also, no one will ever mock him that he isn't as long as other characters in same world.

Turin_19

2020-05-21, 03:03 PM

DavidBV

2020-05-22, 06:43 AM

Let's play Elan for a minute here.

Happy ending (for Elan at least) implies:

-World won't be destroyed. He would never consider that a happy ending. this is also narratively reinforced by loose ends, like the "plan" to end Tarquin's rule that would become pointless.

-Haley survives. D'uh.

-Most of the order survives. Belkar is obviously gonna die, but there's still the possibility of another member dying and Elan still consider it a "mostly happy" ending. For instance if Roy dies but is considered the greatest hero ever.

Now, unrelated to the above: there will be a new cosmic balance, in which the Gods have a different role. Maybe the world inside the rift is a world no longer ruled by gods and magic, but by the laws of physics, much like ours. Maybe a world where someone like Roy, always rational and non-religious, would be happy. I see it as a possibility that some order members like Roy could move there permanently while others remain, becoming separated at the ending, forever. This would kind of mirror the emotional impact of the end of The Lord of the Rings, when Frodo leaves the Middle-Earth.

Also there's the matter of goblinoid races, gobbotopia and Redcloak. Redcloak won't live to see his plan fulfilled. He's too far gone, has made too many mistakes, from a story point of view there can't be a happy ending for him, I think. But Rich may yet redeem him... I was very surprised by Thor's request to Durkon and I'm very curious to see how it unfolds.

Schroeswald

2020-05-22, 07:59 AM

I'd say that there are two things I think I know about Redcloak's ending:

1. Redcloak was wrong. Almost everything he's done since he got the Crimson Mantle will have been for nothing, most of it counterproductive in fact, especially that thing he did at the end of SOD that I'm too lazy to spoil.

2. Redcloak will win. Not necessarily the man, I think its immensely plausible for him to die, perhaps even without helping the goblins, but the gods will go to the negotiation table and the goblins will improve their situation.

Now, I know this doesn't actually say where he is and his status as alive or dead, thats a lot less guessable, but I think that this, despite it being pretty hard for both to happen, is what Rich is going for with his story.

Edreyn

2020-05-22, 03:39 PM

Happy ending (for Elan at least) implies:

-World won't be destroyed. He would never consider that a happy ending.

Remember Narnia series ending? World was absolutely and fully destroyed, and all protagonists died, but the author still says that everyone got a happy ending. I won't even try to guess why.

F.Harr

2020-05-22, 04:12 PM

* The fiends weren't trying to hold Vaaruvius, but Blackwing. It's just that V was the only way they could hold the bird back.

* We meet the people Durkon almost recruited way back in Origin.

* We learn Redcloak's name.

* We see Nale's afterlife.

* Belkar dies saving V.

* V begins to make amends with their mate.

* Bloodfeast brings the extreme.

* Redcloak's hard to convince, but Durkon does it.

* In a surprise turnaround, Dorunkan and Lirien have a role.

* Team Evil is not defeated in open battle, but something more subtle.

* Hinjo finds an agreement with Jirix.

* When Xykon dies, he's happy it's finally over. Maybe he can finally get coffee.

Peelee

2020-05-22, 04:18 PM

* We meet the people Durkon almost recruited way back in Origin.

* We learn Redcloak's name.

* We see Nale's afterlife.
I'll take those bets.

F.Harr

2020-05-22, 04:20 PM

Any part of a nickle.

Don’t worry about it, I hadn’t realized that the Frontarch of Hel was a different character from Poncho Lady until I re-read the arc for the third time.

It's hard to know.

I like the title "Frontarch".

* Sara welcomes Eugene into the afterlife. Not that they stay together, she just still cares.

LadyEowyn

2020-05-24, 05:31 AM

Oddstar

2020-05-25, 01:42 PM

The Oracle does not like Belkar and seems pleased he will be gone soon. Why would he be pleased for Belkar being underwater? The Oracle is a jerk. He likes messing with people, either by giving them answers that are true but useless or true but misleading. Tricking Roy into thinking that Belkar would die soon would be right up his alley.

I have another prediction. I don't really believe this one, but I'm going with it anyway. At some point, someone, maybe Durkon, maybe someone else, is going to cast Regenerate on Elan. As far as I can remember, Elan has never had Regenerate cast on him. Why does this matter? Because it was strongly implied that Elan's low intelligence is the result of a traumatic brain injury inflicted by his brother when they were infants (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html). A Regenerate spell, which causes "ruined organs [to] grow back", would presumably repair Elan's traumatic brain injury, leading to a considerable increase in intelligence. Again, I don't really think this will happen, but I think it's funny to speculate about.

Peelee

2020-05-25, 03:03 PM

The Oracle is a jerk. He likes messing with people, either by giving them answers that are true but useless or true but misleading. Tricking Roy into thinking that Belkar would die soon would be right up his alley.

The Oracle took pleasure in gloating about Belkar's future constantly aside from the on-the-record prophecy to Roy. Your theory does not account for any of those comments

Oddstar

2020-05-25, 05:26 PM

The Oracle took pleasure in gloating about Belkar's future constantly aside from the on-the-record prophecy to Roy. Your theory does not account for any of those comments Ah, but the Oracle knows he's in a comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html). He probably enjoys messing with us, too.

Peelee

2020-05-25, 06:48 PM

Ah, but the Oracle knows he's in a comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html). He probably enjoys messing with us, too.

Except he explicitly says that the entire purpose of the memory charm is because he rambles and doesn't want his off-the-cuff soothsayings to affect anything (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html).

Not to mention "the prophecy was just a joke, at Roy's and the readers' expense" would be one heck of an unsatisfying conclusion.

hungrycrow

2020-05-25, 07:52 PM

Not to mention "the prophecy was just a joke, at Roy's and the readers' expense" would be one heck of an unsatisfying conclusion.

I'm not sure Roy would care all that much if he realized the prophecy was false. He wasn't super invested in Belkar's death, and their relationship seems to be getting better.

The audience are the only people who would care if the prophecy was a trick.

Peelee

2020-05-25, 07:58 PM

I'm not sure Roy would care all that much if he realized the prophecy was false. He wasn't super invested in Belkar's death, and their relationship seems to be getting better.

The audience are the only people who would care if the prophecy was a trick.

I'm not saying it would be unsatisfactory for Roy. I'm saying the Oracle lying to Roy for seemingly no reason other than to manufacture drama in the readership's minds would be unsatisfactory, in addition to lying directly to the audience for the same reason would also be unsatisfactory. Roy's thoughts on it would be neither here nor there.

Hence, I find any theory relying on "the Oracle lied" to not hold very much water.

Oddstar

2020-05-25, 11:39 PM

I'm not saying it would be unsatisfactory for Roy. I'm saying the Oracle lying to Roy for seemingly no reason other than to manufacture drama in the readership's minds would be unsatisfactory, in addition to lying directly to the audience for the same reason would also be unsatisfactory. Roy's thoughts on it would be neither here nor there.

Hence, I find any theory relying on "the Oracle lied" to not hold very much water. Except it wouldn't be a lie. It would be true, just in an unexpected way. And I don't think that would be unsatisfying for the audience. There is a reason why so many stories that feature prophecies have them come true in unexpected ways. People like it. I think what would be unsatisfying would be for Belkar to get killed off permanently now that he is finally having real character growth and becoming a better person.

As for the oracle not wanting his rambling to affect anything, messing with the audience would not affect anything. We exist outside the story, and we are not the author. Moreover, the Oracle knows that, because he knows we are unaffected by the memory charm, so he knows that we will remember whatever he rambles, and he is obviously not concerned about that.

Peelee

2020-05-25, 11:52 PM

Except it wouldn't be a lie. It would be true, just in an unexpected way. And I don't think that would be unsatisfying for the audience. There is a reason why so many stories that feature prophecies have them come true in unexpected ways. People like it. I think what would be unsatisfying would be for Belkar to get killed off permanently now that he is finally having real character growth and becoming a better person.

As for the oracle not wanting his rambling to affect anything, messing with the audience would not affect anything. We exist outside the story, and we are not the author. Moreover, the Oracle knows that, because he knows we are unaffected by the memory charm, so he knows that we will remember whatever he rambles, and he is obviously not concerned about that.

A race of beings that have not in any way been foreshadowed, which Belkar would like to join for no reason, abandoning this world into a life where one of his greatest joys outside of killing (namely, cooking/eating) would no longer be enjoyed, all solely for the purpose of having a twist in a prophecy which adds nothing whatsoever except the twist itself, would be profoundly unsatisfactory.

As for stories where prophecies come true in unexpected ways, it's typically not "the literal meaning of the words were different than you expected" but rather "trying to evade the prophecy did not help." Oedipus, for example, still killed his father and we'd his mother. And, more to the point, in this story the prophecies the Oracle gave have all been fairly straightforward, so it out be a radical outlier - and, at that, a radical outlier for no reason whatsoever other than for the sake of a twist.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Oddstar

2020-05-26, 01:11 AM

A race of beings that have not in any way been foreshadowed, which Belkar would like to join for no reason, abandoning this world into a life where one of his greatest joys outside of killing (namely, cooking/eating) would no longer be enjoyed, all solely for the purpose of having a twist in a prophecy which adds nothing whatsoever except the twist itself, would be profoundly unsatisfactory.

As for stories where prophecies come true in unexpected ways, it's typically not "the literal meaning of the words were different than you expected" but rather "trying to evade the prophecy did not help." Oedipus, for example, still killed his father and we'd his mother. And, more to the point, in this story the prophecies the Oracle gave have all been fairly straightforward, so it out be a radical outlier - and, at that, a radical outlier for no reason whatsoever other than for the sake of a twist.

Sorry, I just don't buy it.

The prophecies from the Oracle have been anything but straightforward. Telling Durkon that he would return to the dwarven lands "posthumously", (which would literally mean after being buried, which he never was) which implies that he would return as a corpse, when in fact he returned as an undead abomination, is anything but straightforward. Telling Vaarsuvius that he would achieve ultimate arcane power "[b]y saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons" implies that Vaarsuvius would say those words to someone else, not to himself. Telling Haley that, to be cured of her speech impediment, she should not look the gift horse in the mouth when he comes calling, is, frankly, so generic as to be all but meaningless.

And the possibility of a prophecy twist with Belkar has been foreshadowed, at least a little. First, it has been foreshadowed that, at some point, the Order will travel to the Riftworld, and we have been told pretty expressly that the Riftworld--if it is the first world, or, indeed, any of the previous worlds--is filled with beings very different from the ones in the Stickworld. And consider as well what Minrah told Belkar: "When you make a change, everyone who meets you from that point on? Only knows the new version of you. And that's nice." That sounds to me like foreshadowing that Belkar might end up in a completely new social milieu where no one knows the old Belkar. They would only ever know the new, changed Belkar.

And that brings me to another point: it would not be for no reason. Far from it. It would be to give a satisfying conclusion to Belkar's character arc. He is a changed man. He is a very different person than he was before Durkon died. He is not faking character growth now. He has become a much better person. If character is destiny, then a change in his character should indeed change his fate.

Finally, you have given the example of Oedipus where the oracle came true exactly how it was said, but I think there are some more relevant examples where oracles came true in unexpected ways. Consider the prophecy that Durkon would bring "death and destruction" when he returned home. Well, the death was what everyone thought it would be, but the destruction, it turns out, was not a bad thing at all. It was his destruction of the ceiling to the meeting hall and of the meeting table that foiled Hel's plot and saved the dwarves and the whole world. Or consider all the predictions from the Oracle I mentioned above. Vaarsuvius had ultimate arcane power, but then he lost it. The "gift horse" Haley was not supposed to question was Nale, and he was plotting to kill her. And again, Durkon did return home no longer alive, but there was clearly a twist there as well. Even "When the goat turns red strikes true" had a twist; the Order thought it was a reference to the chimera, but it turned out to mean that Haley would roll a natural 20 shooting at Nale. I think it's fair to say that Rich Burlew has a pattern of liking prophecy twists. Does that necessarily mean that there will be a twist in this one? Of course not. If there is, will it even resemble my prediction? That's even less likely. But there are good reasons to think that there might be. If you don't buy it, you could turn out to be completely right, and I could turn out to be completely wrong.

woweedd

2020-05-26, 03:16 AM

The prophecies from the Oracle have been anything but straightforward. Telling Durkon that he would return to the dwarven lands "posthumously", (which would literally mean after being buried, which he never was) which implies that he would return as a corpse, when in fact he returned as an undead abomination, is anything but straightforward. Telling Vaarsuvius that he would achieve ultimate arcane power "[b]y saying the right four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons" implies that Vaarsuvius would say those words to someone else, not to himself. Telling Haley that, to be cured of her speech impediment, she should not look the gift horse in the mouth when he comes calling, is, frankly, so generic as to be all but meaningless.

And the possibility of a prophecy twist with Belkar has been foreshadowed, at least a little. First, it has been foreshadowed that, at some point, the Order will travel to the Riftworld, and we have been told pretty expressly that the Riftworld--if it is the first world, or, indeed, any of the previous worlds--is filled with beings very different from the ones in the Stickworld. And consider as well what Minrah told Belkar: "When you make a change, everyone who meets you from that point on? Only knows the new version of you. And that's nice." That sounds to me like foreshadowing that Belkar might end up in a completely new social milieu where no one knows the old Belkar. They would only ever know the new, changed Belkar.

And that brings me to another point: it would not be for no reason. Far from it. It would be to give a satisfying conclusion to Belkar's character arc. He is a changed man. He is a very different person than he was before Durkon died. He is not faking character growth now. He has become a much better person. If character is destiny, then a change in his character should indeed change his fate.

Finally, you have given the example of Oedipus where the oracle came true exactly how it was said, but I think there are some more relevant examples where oracles came true in unexpected ways. Consider the prophecy that Durkon would bring "death and destruction" when he returned home. Well, the death was what everyone thought it would be, but the destruction, it turns out, was not a bad thing at all. It was his destruction of the ceiling to the meeting hall and of the meeting table that foiled Hel's plot and saved the dwarves and the whole world. Or consider all the predictions from the Oracle I mentioned above. Vaarsuvius had ultimate arcane power, but then he lost it. The "gift horse" Haley was not supposed to question was Nale, and he was plotting to kill her. And again, Durkon did return home no longer alive, but there was clearly a twist there as well. Even "When the goat turns red strikes true" had a twist; the Order thought it was a reference to the chimera, but it turned out to mean that Haley would roll a natural 20 shooting at Nale. I think it's fair to say that Rich Burlew has a pattern of liking prophecy twists. Does that necessarily mean that there will be a twist in this one? Of course not. If there is, will it even resemble my prediction? That's even less likely. But there are good reasons to think that there might be. If you don't buy it, you could turn out to be completely right, and I could turn out to be completely wrong.
Posthumously does actually just mean "after you die", V would count as a being, and "don't a look a gift horse in the mouth is a stock phrase meaning to not examine a gift or kindness too closely, which is what solved it.

hungrycrow

2020-05-26, 06:30 AM

Linneris

2020-05-26, 08:18 AM

Finally, you have given the example of Oedipus where the oracle came true exactly how it was said, but I think there are some more relevant examples where oracles came true in unexpected ways. Consider the prophecy that Durkon would bring "death and destruction" when he returned home. Well, the death was what everyone thought it would be, but the destruction, it turns out, was not a bad thing at all. It was his destruction of the ceiling to the meeting hall and of the meeting table that foiled Hel's plot and saved the dwarves and the whole world. Or consider all the predictions from the Oracle I mentioned above. Vaarsuvius had ultimate arcane power, but then he lost it. The "gift horse" Haley was not supposed to question was Nale, and he was plotting to kill her. And again, Durkon did return home no longer alive, but there was clearly a twist there as well. Even "When the goat turns red strikes true" had a twist; the Order thought it was a reference to the chimera, but it turned out to mean that Haley would roll a natural 20 shooting at Nale. I think it's fair to say that Rich Burlew has a pattern of liking prophecy twists. Does that necessarily mean that there will be a twist in this one? Of course not. If there is, will it even resemble my prediction? That's even less likely. But there are good reasons to think that there might be. If you don't buy it, you could turn out to be completely right, and I could turn out to be completely wrong.

One prophecy admittedly had a pretty straightforward resolution: Belkar killed the Oracle, making the prophecy self-fulfilling. Though probably few expected it to play out in that specific way.

But yes, I expect a twist to the "Belkar will draw his last breath ever" prophecy. And probably one that will catch people off guard.

Bedinsis

2020-05-26, 10:55 AM

it has been foreshadowed that, at some point, the Order will travel to the Riftworld

What? Where?

Ron Miel

2020-05-26, 11:05 AM

littlebum2002

2020-05-26, 12:26 PM

The existence of the riftworld is a mystery within the strip. The order know it exists, but not what it is. It will be resolved before the end. It would be surprising if the Stickies don't actually go there at some point.

It would be almost as surprising as everyone mentioning that Girard was into illusions and then not see, like, any.

Bedinsis

2020-05-26, 12:34 PM

The existence of the riftworld is a mystery within the strip.Agreed.

The order know it exists, but not what it is. Agreed.
It will be resolved before the end. Agreed.
It would be surprising if the Stickies don't actually go there at some point.Disagreed. It can be resolved through scrying magic or something; saying it would be surprising if they don't go there implies they are more likely to go there then they are not. I don't think so.

I still am curious about this supposed foreshadowing.

hungrycrow

2020-05-26, 02:29 PM

It would be almost as surprising as everyone mentioning that Girard was into illusions and then not see, like, any.

We did see an illusion already: that weird purple dream world.
Girard didn't have any reason to make an illusion that could only be seen after the gate is destroyed. What, after his whole family is dead and his mission is failed, he's going to mildly confuse the enemy?
The only way it being an illusion would make sense is if we were still stuck in the dream, which would be silly.

Also, there was an image of the world in the rift at azure city too. Why would there be an illusion in both rifts?

littlebum2002

2020-05-26, 02:45 PM

It can be resolved through scrying magic or something; saying it would be surprising if they don't go there implies they are more likely to go there then they are not. I don't think so.

I mean you can think whatever you want, if you enjoy thinking things that are wrong. This planet is so mysterious that the gods themselves don't even know about it. This mystery is not going to be solved "by scrying". The Order is going to visit that planet, at some point in the story. You can believe that, or you can be wrong, your choice :smallcool:

We did see an illusion already: that weird purple dream world.
Girard didn't have any reason to make an illusion that could only be seen after the gate is destroyed.

I know, I was just quoting what Elan said after the purple dream world.

hungrycrow

2020-05-26, 06:06 PM

I know, I was just quoting what Elan said after the purple dream world.

Okay, i see what you're saying now. Still, I think we could get sufficient payoff just by learning about the planet without going to it physically. Given Laurin couldn't sense any life, and the Snarl has been stomping around for ages, I don't think there's anything left on the planet for the Order to interact with.

I guess they could jump to the planet to fight the Snarl personally at some point.

Dion

2020-05-27, 10:44 AM

I mean you can think whatever you want, if you enjoy thinking things that are wrong.

It’s a good thing I do enjoy being wrong every day before breakfast.

Julio and Tarquin have their final battle above the rift. They fall in, revealing the world of forgotten stories.

Edreyn

2020-05-28, 10:36 AM

Friends, with all this discussion about how Belkar's prophecy will unfold, you are being too serious. Especially when comparing it to prophecies from Greek mythology. Remember what Rich was saying from the beginning? The idea for OOTS is to be funny, and characters will do what's funny and not what's smart. Of course I don't know if Belkar will die, or the prophecy will "shoot" in an unexpected way, but what I think is based just on the idea that this plot twist should be funny, and not on some scientific research of what and why. I recommend for you not to treat comic, especially this one, like something that needs deep rationalization.

Schroeswald

2020-05-28, 10:50 AM

Rich cares about his story and his characters, he doesn't just choose the funniest option, whatever happens to Belkar won't be the funniest option, its the one that will help the story and conclude his character arc best, Rule of Funny is no longer the only or even most important rule of the comic.

Ron Miel

2020-05-28, 12:47 PM

I still am curious about this supposed foreshadowing.

Maybe foreshadowing is the wrong word. It's more of a Chekhov's gun, really. It's an object that has been placed in sight of the audience. It is reasonable to suppose it will be plot-significant at some point.

Dion

2020-06-02, 01:32 PM

My other predictions:

Sabine and Nale have a baby.

Kudzu will fight that baby.

Kudzu maybe won’t fight that baby until book 8.

MiTD will continue to not eat babies.

Xykon does not play Go.

Squire Doodad

2020-06-02, 04:47 PM

Maybe foreshadowing is the wrong word. It's more of a Chekhov's gun, really. It's an object that has been placed in sight of the audience. It is reasonable to suppose it will be plot-significant at some point.

I'd suppose it's reasonable to assume it'll be the location of the final showdown. After all, it's been made relevant and presumably would have to have some value. I can think of a few other ways that would involve it that make sense as well, and one or two that I feel make more sense, but regardless it'll be of some importance.

littlebum2002

2020-06-03, 08:48 AM

Okay, i see what you're saying now. Still, I think we could get sufficient payoff just by learning about the planet without going to it physically. Given Laurin couldn't sense any life, and the Snarl has been stomping around for ages, I don't think there's anything left on the planet for the Order to interact with.

I guess they could jump to the planet to fight the Snarl personally at some point.

Well you have to remember that spells (and psionic powers) all have ranges, and I am not aware of any that have ranges on the order of thousands of miles (although I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, unless Laurin is SERIOUSLY augmenting the range of her power, I don't think she is scanning the entire planet for life. Plus, she never actually said she is scanning it for life, she just said she was scanning it for fish. If I was a betting person, I would bet that she is using a Psionics version of Detect Animals (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectAnimalsOrPlants.htm), meaning that

1) she is only looking for fish, and
2) the range is on the order of ~1000 feet, not the entire planet.

Also, remember that the gods dont even know about the planet, and I think it would be pretty disappointing if nothing came of it.

"Hey, there is a planet in the rifts! And hey, one of the rifts is near the planet's surface! And hey, if you start poking magic and psionics at the rift, the snarl somehow knows and attacks you! And hey, THE GODS DONT EVEN KNOW IT EXISTS! How interesting is that? Oh well, i'm sure there is nothing of interest there so there is no reason to explore it any further, it's just an enormously hinted at plot device that will turn into nothing at all, that totally is a thing that happens all the time"

Peelee

2020-06-03, 11:01 AM

Well you have to remember that spells (and psionic powers) all have ranges, and I am not aware of any that have ranges on the order of thousands of miles (although I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong). Therefore, unless Laurin is SERIOUSLY augmenting the range of her power, I don't think she is scanning the entire planet for life. Plus, she never actually said she is scanning it for life, she just said she was scanning it for fish. If I was a betting person, I would bet that she is using a Psionics version of Detect Animals (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectAnimalsOrPlants.htm), meaning that

1) she is only looking for fish, and
2) the range is on the order of ~1000 feet, not the entire planet.

This is well after the Giant decided to start obfuscating specific powers/abilities (there is famously -on here, at least - no consensus for Tarquin's entire build, for example) in the interest of being more freely able to convey what he wants, and Laurin says she can't detect life. I take that more to mean that the planet is likely lifeless than that the very small regions she scanned just happened to be empty.

Neponde

2020-06-03, 06:05 PM

Sorry to back up the discussion to Belkar, but I felt compelled to emerge from lurking to toss in a theory. I have noticed that as the comic goes on, the Giant is more and more focused on displaying character change and growth. Belkar began a homicidal maniac, taking others lives for his own enjoyment. He was a static character, until the Giant hung a lantern on that with the hippy vision quest (606.. Sorry, cant post URLs yet). Belkar then vowed to pretend to have character growth. It was mostly a sham (except Scruffy breaking the shell), until Durkon really messed him up by sacrificing himself (beginning 879). We see how much this affects him in future strips. 881 (final panel) is perhaps the first time he truly recognizes his own bankruptcy. We see the internal battle continue (1115). If 1115 isn't a super clear foreshadowing that Belkar is going to lay down his life for someone, i don't know what is. The one who killed for himself will discover what it is to die for another, and Roys self appointed mission to minimize Belkars evil will be completed, as he makes the ultimate good act.

Squidtm

2020-06-05, 07:10 PM

I take that more to mean that the planet is likely lifeless than that the very small regions she scanned just happened to be empty.

In 672 (sorry, can't post links yet) the planet has green landforms, so there's probably at least some plant life.

Squire Doodad

2020-06-06, 03:54 PM

In 672 (sorry, can't post links yet) the planet has green landforms, so there's probably at least some plant life.

Or MAYBE the entire surface is just covered with copper! Why doesn't the media ever acknowledge that side of things? :smalltongue:

The Snarl might just not register plant life as something worth consuming? If nothing else, it could just be Rich getting the point across that there was a planet inside the rift. He might not have decided it had lifeless waters at that point.

Dion

2020-06-06, 11:51 PM

My prediction: Redcloak tries to help seal the rift, but dies. Thor's plan fails.

We learn more about the nature of the rifts and the planet seen in the rifts. Perhaps we even learn something significant and previously unknown about the snarl as well. That new information is used to achieve a new stable equilibrium, saving the world.

Xykon lives, sealed away in some terrible prison created by redcloak.

Belkar really does die.

MitD and O’Chul continue their friendship for the rest of their lives, eventually moving into an apartment on New Yorks upper west side, exactly like Felix and Oscar from the odd couple.

Bedinsis

2020-06-09, 10:25 AM

For people visiting the thread from the future, page 1204 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1204.html) (where Durkon initiates contact with Redcloak) is as of this post the latest page. Given that that is the first legit curveball of this book I thought it prudent to mention that any predictions made beyond this point is made with this knowledge in mind.

* Belkar will at one point in this book notice that his clasp that harms Evil creatures no longer seems to harm him.

understatement

2020-06-09, 10:39 AM

F.Harr

2020-06-11, 01:13 AM

I think we see Yokyok again! I like that little guy with his moustache and overdeveloped sense of vengence!

Dion

2020-06-11, 12:22 PM

Suppose Durkon convinces Redcloak. Durkon says “help us seal the rift and save the world”, and Redcloak says “OK”.

Then what? What does the rest of the book look like?

Jasdoif

2020-06-11, 01:01 PM

Suppose Durkon convinces Redcloak. Durkon says “help us seal the rift and save the world”, and Redcloak says “OK”.

Then what? What does the rest of the book look like?If Redcloak readily agrees this early, we're probably looking at the Dark One balking (which may result in withholding the needed spell slots from Redcloak) or the ritual somehow screwing things up even worse than before (five-quddity Snarl?); each of which will require some sort of serious effort to resolve...and that's what the rest of the book covers.

littlebum2002

2020-06-15, 07:00 AM

This is well after the Giant decided to start obfuscating specific powers/abilities (there is famously -on here, at least - no consensus for Tarquin's entire build, for example) in the interest of being more freely able to convey what he wants, and Laurin says she can't detect life. I take that more to mean that the planet is likely lifeless than that the very small regions she scanned just happened to be empty.

She says she can't detect fish, not that she can't detect life

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html

I'm not saying the planet ISN'T empty. An empty planet can definitely serve the plot: Since the planet has survived at least one end-of-the-world, maybe the gods can Epic Teleport everyone there to save them if everything goes down? I dunno. I personally think it's more likely from a story perspective that the planet contains someone important to the plot. Kraagor, perhaps.

hungrycrow

2020-06-15, 07:52 AM

She says she can't detect fish, not that she can't detect life.

She says she can't even detect any fish; she was definitely searching for other life forms. And she had to have scanned a significant chunk of the ocean to be able to claim that nothing would interfere with their plans.

Peelee

2020-06-15, 08:05 AM

She says she can't detect fish, not that she can't detect life

A distinction without a difference, I'd contend. Assume, for the moment, that mamillian, crustacean, and other non-fish sea life exists in the water, just not where she was scanning. What would be the point of that line?

littlebum2002

2020-06-15, 09:09 AM

A distinction without a difference, I'd contend. Assume, for the moment, that mamillian, crustacean, and other non-fish sea life exists in the water, just not where she was scanning. What would be the point of that line?

She's just saying what she knows. Like I said, I doubt she has a spell which is capable of scanning for all life on an entire planet. So she only scanned for fish (which one would assume is the most abundant life in an ocean), assuming that if there are no fish, there probably is no other life in the ocean as well. Thus her line: "I haven't even sensed a fish". I would compare that to the line "He wouldn't even hurt a fly" (although not the subversion of that line seen in the comic). If someone wouldn't hurt a fly, you can safely assume they wouldn't hurt anyone else. So Laurin scanned for fish, found nothing, and as you pointed out, that probably means there is no other oceanic life in her scanning radius or anywhere else in the ocean.

But I'm saying that just because there are no fish in that part of the ocean, and therefore most probably no oceanic life in the entire ocean, doesn't mean the entire planet is void of life. On the contrary, we know there is plant life on the planet (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). So the question isn't "Is there life on the planet?" but "What kinds of life are on the planet?" I personally think that there is some humanoid life on the planet, namely because I think it would kind of be boring otherwise, but that prediction could be wrong.

Peelee

2020-06-15, 10:27 AM

She's just saying what she knows. Like I said, I doubt she has a spell which is capable of scanning for all life on an entire planet. So she only scanned for fish (which one would assume is the most abundant life in an ocean), assuming that if there are no fish, there probably is no other life in the ocean as well. Thus her line: "I haven't even sensed a fish". I would compare that to the line "He wouldn't even hurt a fly" (although not the subversion of that line seen in the comic). If someone wouldn't hurt a fly, you can safely assume they wouldn't hurt anyone else. So Laurin scanned for fish, found nothing, and as you pointed out, that probably means there is no other oceanic life in her scanning radius or anywhere else in the ocean.

But I'm saying that just because there are no fish in that part of the ocean, and therefore most probably no oceanic life in the entire ocean, doesn't mean the entire planet is void of life. On the contrary, we know there is plant life on the planet (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). So the question isn't "Is there life on the planet?" but "What kinds of life are on the planet?" I personally think that there is some humanoid life on the planet, namely because I think it would kind of be boring otherwise, but that prediction could be wrong.

I know she is just saying what she knows, but this is a work of fiction, not a documentary; there is a Doylistic reason for her to have said that. As for the green on the planet... I think Antilife Shell would be helpful here.

Antilife Shell

You bring into being a mobile, hemispherical energy field that prevents the entrance of most types of living creatures.

The effect hedges out animals, aberrations, dragons, fey, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, oozes, plants, and vermin, but not constructs, elementals, outsiders, or undead.

This spell may be used only defensively, not aggressively. Forcing an abjuration barrier against creatures that the spell keeps at bay collapses the barrier.
The spell very explicitly calls out plants, as plants are undisputably alive. However, it also rather notably specifies "creatures" twice, instead of "life". So, for example, if I were to cast Antilife Shell and move against an Assassin Vine, the barrier would collapse. If I were to recast Antilife Shell and move against the grass, it would not.

That is a much more serviceable term that I think we could all agree was the intent of Laurin's speech there - that she could not detect any creatures (said in a less clinical way). I don't want to posit that the rocks and dust is just naturally green on Riftworld; chances are that is indeed plant life, like grass. But I believe her statement is expressly given in order to convey that there are no creatures on Riftworld.

In the future, I'll try to keep that distinction, but if I forget or anything, and I mention "life" when talking about Riftworld, feel free to mentally replace that with "creature(s)".

littlebum2002

2020-06-15, 11:21 AM

I know she is just saying what she knows, but this is a work of fiction, not a documentary; there is a Doylistic reason for her to have said that. As for the green on the planet... I think Antilife Shell would be helpful here.

The spell very explicitly calls out plants, as plants are undisputably alive. However, it also rather notably specifies "creatures" twice, instead of "life". So, for example, if I were to cast Antilife Shell and move against an Assassin Vine, the barrier would collapse. If I were to recast Antilife Shell and move against the grass, it would not.

That is a much more serviceable term that I think we could all agree was the intent of Laurin's speech there - that she could not detect any creatures (said in a less clinical way). I don't want to posit that the rocks and dust is just naturally green on Riftworld; chances are that is indeed plant life, like grass. But I believe her statement is expressly given in order to convey that there are no creatures on Riftworld.

In the future, I'll try to keep that distinction, but if I forget or anything, and I mention "life" when talking about Riftworld, feel free to mentally replace that with "creature(s)".

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, I think it's very likely that the planet is void of creatures. However, I also think it is possible that there is a small population on the planet, since no such spell would ever be able to search the whole thing. My personal prediction is that it is home to those "killed" by the snarl, like Kraagor and Mijung.

Peelee

2020-06-15, 11:32 AM

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, I think it's very likely that the planet is void of creatures. However, I also think it is possible that there is a small population on the planet, since no such spell would ever be able to search the whole thing. My personal prediction is that it is home to those "killed" by the snarl, like Kraagor and Mijung.

And in that case, I question why the author had her say "I can't detect any fish" instead of "i can barely detect any fish" or "that's weird, there should be hundreds of times more fish", or something not "no fish". She is conveying information to the reader about a mysterious plot element. The information is not the specific "there is no fish in the region she scanned," because that is useless information. I contend that the information is "there is no creature life on this world".

I don't want to discount that Kraagor or Mijung could potentially be on the world (Mijung I would doubt, as Soon presumably saw her killed, and not trapped in the rift; Kraagor is more likely, if anyone), but I'm not counting "other-worldly creatures who happened to fall through the rift and now inhabit Riftworld".

Or, put more simply, there is no creature life native to Riftworld. And, compared to the size of the planet, the population of creatures inhabiting it (like Kraagor and some chickens) can be rounded to zero.

littlebum2002

2020-06-15, 12:21 PM

And in that case, I question why the author had her say "I can't detect any fish" instead of "i can barely detect any fish" or "that's weird, there should be hundreds of times more fish", or something not "no fish". She is conveying information to the reader about a mysterious plot element. The information is not the specific "there is no fish in the region she scanned," because that is useless information. I contend that the information is "there is no creature life on this world".

Because there aren't any fish. The riftworld clearly wasn't (purposely at least) created by the gods. Therefore, no life could have been created there. Therefore therefore, the only life that could be there is life that was brought there externally, which ass you pointed out is pretty close to zero.

I question why the author had her say "I can't detect any fish" instead of "I can't detect any life", especially considering there IS a "fish detecting spell" in 3.5 but no "life detecting spell". And of course the possibility exists that he's just making up a homemade spell, but the first thought many people would have is of the spell that acts exactly the way the power she is using acts, instead of a spell or power that doesn't exist anywhere in literature. All she had to say was "I don't detect any life" and it would have been 100% clear to everyone what she was searching for.

I don't want to discount that Kraagor or Mijung could potentially be on the world (Mijung I would doubt, as Soon presumably saw her killed, and not trapped in the rift; Kraagor is more likely, if anyone), but I'm not counting "other-worldly creatures who happened to fall through the rift and now inhabit Riftworld".

Or, put more simply, there is no creature life native to Riftworld. And, compared to the size of the planet, the population of creatures inhabiting it (like Kraagor and some chickens) can be rounded to zero.

I totally agree with all of this. Any potential creatures in the Riftworld would have had to been brought there, not created there.

Dion

2020-06-15, 12:54 PM

I question why the author had her say "I can't detect any fish" instead of "I can't detect any life", especially considering there IS a "fish detecting spell" in 3.5 but no "life detecting spell".

She said, “I’ve been telepathically scanning into this hole and I haven’t even sensed any... fish”

I’m not sure if a telepathic scan mimics a known spell. I really don’t have a clue how psionic power works in this world.

But my read is that she doesn’t say she’s trying to detect life because she’s not trying to detect life. She’s telepathically scanning for anything with a mind; i.e. probably sensing anything with intelligence, wisdom, or charisma.

Initially she sensed nothing, not even very primitive minds such as fish.

Then... she did sense something.

KorvinStarmast

2020-06-15, 06:48 PM

I My personal prediction is that it is home to those "killed" by the snarl, like Kraagor and Mijung. who then started a family ...

littlebum2002

2020-07-01, 08:41 AM

Peelee

2020-07-01, 09:31 AM

I just thought of another prediction. Durkon finally Regenerates Sigdi's arm, and we cut to Valhalla, where Tenrin has been holding her disembodied arm for fifty odd years while drinking beer. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1184.html) We see the arm slowly fade from his grasp, and with a tear in his eye he whispers "finally"

Why? Like, everything in the afterlife is shaped by belief, so Roy and Horace can both have the Greenhilt family sword with no problem, so why would he believe that all of a sudden the arm disappears? And it's not as if Regenerate takes the old arm back, it creates a new arm. It'd also be weird to think that, if Tenrin were holding anything for the last however many years, he'd probably want to hold his wife rather than her disembodied arm (which he probably wouldn't know about, since he died when she lost it), and her arm almost certainly wouldn't form a part of how he sees himself. Even if he did maintain a "i never let go" attitude with the same ferocity as Sigdi, the claim there is "never let go of Sigdi," so it'd be more than just her arm there with him.

Also, it'd just be weird for him to be walking around the afterlife, partying it up in Valhalla, holding a detached arm. But that's just me.

Sigako

2020-07-03, 05:42 AM

Redcloak communes with The Dark One, explaining the plan with quiddities, but TDO orders him to refuse, because he long since ceased caring about his followers or the world and only wants for his plan to succeed to get back at other gods.

The ally only seen once will be revealed as Giggles, who sort of ascended through the worship of a tribe ignorant of all pantheons. This will lend him and Bajo the fifth quiddity, and that will allow to actually destroy Snarl.

The planet will be revealed as the first world - Snarl killed green gods and everyone ensouled, but wasn't interested in the planet itself.

Xykon will reveal that he was aware of Redcloak's ruse for a very long time, and has no intention to follow his plan, instead planning something fun (and by fun I mean horrible, cruel and possibly apocalyptic), and Redcloak will be forced to ally with the Order to stop him, going to his fortress in the process.

The Monster will get out of darkness... offscreen. The characters will comment on how impressive it is, it'll do some battling and then leave (possibly to play go with O-Chul), never revealing itself to readers. If someone recognizes it's species, they'll tell it other characters offscreen, again.

The Gate will be revealed to sit not behind one of the doors, but somewhere else completely, though close. Possibly the true door is walled by stone, hidden with illusion, or rift is small enough to fit into the statue.

Oona will duke it out with Belkar, briefly. Then they'll become fascinated by each other and their pets, say "Screw you all, we have more interesting things to do" and leave the battle.

Dwarves will be shown to resume the vote... with the final clan head hesitating and delegating the vote to their clan instead, starting the fun all over again, with said tie giving additional time to the team (while gods look at this in utter exasperation).

brian 333

2020-07-06, 11:09 PM

I have predicted since the Oracle promised Elan a happy ending that he and Haley would enter a rift and be at the very beginning of a new campaign world. (One road, one village, and one dungeon, with the rest of the world blank and full of as yet unrealized potential.) At that time I thought the Snarl was a new (defacto) DM who was stealing ideas from the OoTSverse. I think that is still a good bet.

But tonight I had an epiphany:
The Giant has been leading us through storylines which show character growth and which have shown us that D&D itself can grow to become more than a game based in 2D morality where killing because evil is okay and has no consequences. In fact, one might argue that every plot element of OoTS is dealing with the consequences of just such 2D thinking.

So, this leads me to believe that the final page of OoTS will be drawn in 3D as Elan and Haley stand in the road they discover beyond the rift.

Elan: Haley, you are even more beautiful in 3D.

Haley: (ahem) Thanks, Elan, you look real nice too. Wanna go check out that inn?

Elan: More than anything!

Squidtm

2020-07-07, 12:48 AM

Hmm, the art style has been getting more and more 3D. There used to be no shadows (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0229.html), but they've started appearing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1119.html).

CriticalFailure

2020-07-07, 01:42 AM

Maybe a four or five quidditt world could make things more real and this result in more detailed art.

MilesBeyond

2020-07-14, 01:58 PM

My ridiculous, totally out there, incredibly unlikely prediction:

There is no Dark One. What we've seen as the Dark One is actually some sort of manifestation or projection of the Snarl, which is actually a fair bit more intelligent than the gods thought. The Snarl is using the visage of the Dark One to manipulate Redcloak into releasing it and manipulate the gods into not directly intervening so that it can consume all the gods and finally end the cycle (just, you know, the other way).

C-Dude

2020-07-29, 10:59 PM

The Gate will be revealed to sit not behind one of the doors, but somewhere else completely, though close. Possibly the true door is walled by stone, hidden with illusion, or rift is small enough to fit into the statue.

I bet Kraagor's Gate is in his statue, not his tomb. The statue being crafted before the gates is irrelevant, because Merini knew a Divine and Arcane caster, and there's a spell split over those disciplines to move a gate. I bet it's been cast once already, to move the gate into the statue.

Peelee

2020-07-29, 11:07 PM

b_jonas

2020-07-31, 02:01 PM

Belkar will die soon and will never get resurrected. I still think this one is right. But I've mentioned elsewhere that I thougth Minrah would replace him as the sixth member of the Order. I'm so glad I didn't say that in this thread, because Rich just dissed that prediction in his 2020-07 Patreon answers post, question 4 (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-may-39917949).

understatement

2020-08-04, 12:35 AM

Since yesterday's strip was such a charmer...I predict:

*the mysterious allies will show up to save Durkon, because he really needs it at this point

*Xykon doesn't come out of wherever he is, or else Durkon and Redcloak are both toast

*Redcloak won't be persuaded by Durkon, but will 'think it oveer' -- because the alternative of Durkon dying again depresses me. Durkon needs to go back home to his son!

I guess I mentioned this in the main thread, but technically the third point was correct...still, I'm swapping it out with:

*Durkon makes his save. Minrah comes in and throws the hammer at Redcloak, buying them time. Xykon shows up at the same time as the Order.

I look forward to be proven wrong.

ShaneWegner

2020-08-04, 01:13 AM

C-Dude

2020-08-18, 03:43 PM

Peelee

2020-08-18, 03:51 PM

I bet Kraagor's Gate is in his statue, not his tomb. The statue being crafted before the gates is irrelevant, because Merini knew a Divine and Arcane caster, and there's a spell split over those disciplines to move a gate. I bet it's been cast once already, to move the gate into the statue.Whelp, my prediction is dead as of strip 1211... if the gate was inside Kragor's statue, then Redcloak animating it would have ripped it out (and subsequently interrupted the fight).

While I think that would have been a really cool twist on an opening round of combat, it was not to be.

Technically, it was dead as of nine years ago (hey, almost exactly!), since the Gate cannot be physically moved to start with (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=11686931&postcount=83). It can only be moved to a different plane, and even that feat was only devised by a god; there's no reason to believe that the Order of the Scribble knew how to do it.

dancrilis

2020-08-18, 04:15 PM

Xykon manipulates the ritual to kill The Dark One.
Redcloak for the first time since he put on The Crimson Mantle finds himself with no master (Xykon has betrayed him and left, and The Dark One is dead) finds himself in still holding the last spells his god will ever give him - and he has a choice seal to make:
1. The rifts and perhaps allow the goblins to survive
2. Withhold the power and expect that when the gods or the snarl destroy the world they will end Xykon.
Sabine will betray the IFCC for mistreating Nale (somehow) and help Vaarsuvius distrupt their plans (somehow).
Belkar will die saving Hinjo's life - his afterlife will be awesome.
Eugene knows he is not getting into the same afterlife as his family - which is why he agreed to Roy's request without concern.
Haley will the story either pregnant or with a child born.
Jirix will be a fine ruler for Gobbotopia.
Xykon will not be destroyed - but he will be dealt with somehow (perhaps kicked upstairs as a deity).
Hel will be released from her bet.
Redcloak will end up teaching science to goblinoid children.
Durkon will work it out with Hilgya, she will turn from Loki.
Loki is using Hilgya to to convince the Dwarves against honour - but was never planning to fight Hel for their souls in order to help her out.
Roy begin a family with Celia.
Fyron's son will not appear.

Edit:
Tarquin will survive the story.
Tarquin's group will fragment.
Belkar will apologise to Vaarsuvius for feeding them to an Owlbear.

hungrycrow

2020-08-18, 08:06 PM

Emanick

2020-08-18, 11:01 PM

I thought I had posted a prediction here along the lines of "Kraagor's statue will play some minor role in the plot, besides just standing there," but apparently not. Darn it.

Ah well, gonna give myself half credit anyway, despite how vague and minor a guess it was. :smalltongue:

b_jonas

2020-08-19, 05:45 AM

Xykon will destroy the last gate. He previously said that he wouldn't destroy the world, unless he got really really bored. He will at some point or already has realized that Redcloak is betraying him, and the ritual won't help him at all. With the entirety of his undead life being a waste of time, he might decide to break everything, wait out the storm in his astral castle, and start over on a new world, unaware that Redcloak still has his soul-hidey thing. His undead life wasn't a waste of time. Redcloak did everything for the Plan only, Xykon did not, and Redcloak was often frustrated about how little Xykon cares about the Plan. Xykon gained experience, killed Lirian and Dorukan and got Dorkuan's headband, crafted magic items, built a fortress on the Astral plane, perhaps researched magic spells, perhaps looted some goodies from Azure City, had fun paralyzing and killing and raising goblins. Those years of his unlife were well spent. If Redcloak's Plan fails, Xykon is still an epic lich sorcerer. The only problems are that (1) the gods might destroy the world, (2) Roy will destroy Xykon at the end of the story.

hungrycrow

2020-08-19, 05:59 AM

His undead life wasn't a waste of time. Redcloak did everything for the Plan only, Xykon did not, and Redcloak was often frustrated about how little Xykon cares about the Plan. Xykon gained experience, killed Lirian and Dorukan and got Dorkuan's headband, crafted magic items, built a fortress on the Astral plane, perhaps researched magic spells, perhaps looted some goodies from Azure City, had fun paralyzing and killing and raising goblins. Those years of his unlife were well spent. If Redcloak's Plan fails, Xykon is still an epic lich sorcerer. The only problems are that (1) the gods might destroy the world, (2) Roy will destroy Xykon at the end of the story.

Its true that he's probably better off so far, but I doubt he'd see it that way when he realizes he can't win.

dancrilis

2020-08-19, 06:08 AM

Its true that he's probably better off so far, but I doubt he'd see it that way when he realizes he can't win.

Why can't he win - the Gods have all sorts of rules preventing them from acting (and the higher and lower planes seem to be similiarly bound), in theory there does not seem to be anything stopping Xykon conquering the world the old fashioned way.
Ganonron is claimed to have done that with world after world.

Jason

2020-08-19, 09:41 AM

Prediction: The news that the Snarl has devoured Gobbotopia will be the spur that finally gets Redcloak to give up on The Plan, turn against Xykon, and result in his being eaten by the MitD.

KorvinStarmast

2020-08-19, 10:31 AM

Predictions:

* The next time V gets summoned by the IFCC, she goes on an epic ass-kicking spree thanks to Still Spell + Silent Spell. (Both of which have been specifically called out by name as far back as the Forest Bandit King's daughter specifically not having them.) Actually, I don't think V can or will do that. V made the agreement up front, and I think will honor it and even 'has to' honor it.

* Green quiddity comes into play somehow. Like, maybe Roy copies the Dark One and ascends to deity level, restoring the green pantheon? To ascend, would Roy not also have to die? (I am a bit unclear on how ascension works ...). Roy has already done the "die" thing. Not seeing Rich rehashing that as a good bet.

*Obviously Sirini needs to come into play, completing the arc of the legendary gate heroes each having some role to play. Sirini is sitting on a rocking chair, surrounded by grandkids, grand nieces, great-grand nephews. News of the end of the world reaches here ears and she sighs, hugs her grandkids, and says: "I hope these young whipper snapper millenial NextGen adventurers are up to the challenge; they are the heroes that the world needs now. I'm well past my prime, and I earned my retirement" - and then her heartstrings are tugged by all of the cute little halfling kids running around and she thinks "Well, if they can't, then my little grand kids/nieces, etc" will have their souls devoured by the Snarl." So she heads back into the house, opens that old chest, and realizes "Uh oh, don't fit that studded leather any more, gonna need to do some shopping before I come out of retirement ...."
Well, that's my head-canon. I don't think that she's dead. (Though why her diary was found and isn't with her is a snag in my theory there ... she's a rogue, maybe she went into hiding for other reasons.

Redcloak will end up teaching science to goblinoid children.
That would be his happy ending.

Tarquin will survive the story. Sincerely hope not. Between Ian and that lady whose city he betrayed, I'd like to see his one panel "what happened here?" (like the pole arm dealer's flash back) be X's in the eyes and a sword through his heart. The 200 foot high flaming letters alone warrant his becoming carrion-chow at the end.

Xykon will destroy the last gate. He previously said that he wouldn't destroy the world, unless he got really really bored. He will at some point or already has realized that Redcloak is betraying him, and the ritual won't help him at all. With the entirety of his undead life being a waste of time, he might decide to break everything, wait out the storm in his astral castle, and start over on a new world, unaware that Redcloak still has his soul-hidey thing. And Xykon ends somewhere on the Astral plane, bored, and unable to solve his boredom. That would be a fitting end.

If Redcloak's Plan fails, Xykon is still an epic lich sorcerer. The only problems are that (1) the gods might destroy the world, (2) Roy will destroy Xykon at the end of the story. His contingency is that fortress thingy in some dimension ...

in theory there does not seem to be anything stopping Xykon conquering the world the old fashioned way. He made that point to Redcloak during the "three courses of action briefing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)" before the decision to assault Azure City.

Prediction: The news that the Snarl has devoured Gobbotopia will be the spur that finally gets Redcloak to give up on The Plan, turn against Xykon, and result in his being eaten by the MitD. I would love that as an ending for Redcloack, but that math and science teacher thing probably fits too.

Dausuul

2020-08-19, 11:20 AM

Here's my prediction: The final guardian of the final gate will be the father of the Monster in the Darkness.

My reasoning:

Assuming that MitD is not a universally known species, Rich will need to introduce that monster type before MitD's big reveal, so that readers unfamiliar with the monster in question can become acquainted with it.
If you need to introduce a new monster type, and your book takes place around a dungeon complex full of monsters, the solution is pretty obvious.
There has already been a specific reference to MitD's "dad" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html) in the comic, and Rich went to some effort to work it in. The conversation in the first few panels is pretty clearly set up to give MitD a chance to talk about its dad.
MitD has already been shown to be extremely powerful; yet in the above link, it says that its dad was "BIG" and ate way more than it does. Such a creature could well be the most powerful monster on the planet. For a gate defense whose theme is raw strength, what better guardian?
Troubled paternal relationships are a recurring theme in OotS.

dancrilis

2020-08-19, 12:21 PM

Sincerely hope not. Between Ian and that lady whose city he betrayed, I'd like to see his one panel "what happened here?" (like the pole arm dealer's flash back) be X's in the eyes and a sword through his heart. The 200 foot high flaming letters alone warrant his becoming carrion-chow at the end.

He is still Elan's father - I doubt that Elan's plan involves him dying.

Squire Doodad

2020-08-20, 09:52 AM

He is still Elan's father - I doubt that Elan's plan involves him dying.

It could involve Tarquin losing his empire and being held prisoner by the Free City of Doom though.

Worldsong

2020-08-20, 10:54 AM

He is still Elan's father - I doubt that Elan's plan involves him dying.

Given that part of Elan's storyline was him maturing a little and accepting that his father and brother really are screwed up beyond repair it's not outside the realm of possibility that he might decide that the world is better off without Tarquin.

That said I agree with you that it's more likely that Elan's plan doesn't involve killing Tarquin, although I imagine Ian Starshine has a different opinion on that.

Metastachydium

2020-08-24, 01:52 PM

Possibly with Thog as party fighter.

Nah, Thog is obviously going to be the vessel for the secret weapon of the IFCC. That's why his ”ultimate” fate was left uncertain.

JSSheridan

2020-08-24, 02:01 PM

With the weight of Familicide hanging over her, I think V will be willing to risk her soul being unmade to investigate the world in a world

The IFCC might object

Metastachydium

2020-08-24, 02:05 PM

With the weight of Familicide hanging over her, I think V will be willing to risk her soul being unmade to investigate the world in a world

Wouldn't that require an exposed Rift they have access to?

Lexible

2020-08-24, 05:15 PM

Oona and Belkar will bond over animal companions during a period of her seeming collaboration with the Order of the Stick, and the nature of their interactions will help advance Belkar's shift to an alignment north of CE. Oona will viciously betray and kill Belkar as he undertakes an action that is unambiguously heroic, and possibly world-saving.

KorvinStarmast

2020-08-24, 09:16 PM

With the weight of Familicide hanging over her, I think V will be willing to risk her soul being unmade to investigate the world in a world

The IFCC might object And? Screw the IFCC. They are the bad guys in a way Xykon wishes he was.

MilesBeyond

2020-09-01, 05:19 PM

I've got two serious predictions:

1. Tarquin (presumably with pals) arrives and tries to interfere but is killed by Sabine. At this point Tarquin feels like too much of a loose end to be left dangling but not enough of a loose end to make for good sequel fodder, no matter what Elan says. Sabine's got the motive and ability to kill him and to add insult to injury it would ruin the narrative he's attempting to set up between himself and Elan.

I also suspect that it won't just be Tarquin who shows up - just about every surviving major character, ally or antagonist, will probably wind up converging on this. There'll probably be some sort of throwaway joke where some minor character like Pompey will either arrive by accident, or we'll cut to them somewhere on the other side of the world commenting something like "Why do I feel like there's somewhere I should be right now?"

2. Belkar pulls a Kraagor. We know Belkar's death is going to be final, and death by the Snarl is also final (at least based on the information we currently have). I also feel fairly confident that Belkar's going to make some sort of sacrifice just because that's the direction his character arc is moving in. It'd be a little silly for him to grow and learn to value people (well, animals, at least) above himself and then not have any payoff for that. In the past people have guessed that he'll die and the party won't want to raise him because he's so evil, but at this point they've been through enough together that that would feel like a pretty unsatisfying conclusion to Belkar's story.

In fact, I'm hoping that the Order of the Stick will actually be a foil to the Order of the Scribble here - rather than Soon sacrificing Kraagor and as a result tearing the party apart, Roy will try to sacrifice himself but Belkar will intervene and sacrifice himself instead, as a result binding the party closer together.

dancrilis

2020-09-01, 05:35 PM

And? Screw the IFCC. They are the bad guys in a way Xykon wishes he was.

I suspect that they will find out the hard way that they are not.

Also I suspect that Xykon would think becoming a fiend is beneath him.

Ron Miel

2020-09-01, 05:45 PM

Also I suspect that Xykon would think becoming a fiend is beneath him.

I doubt it. "Anything to avoid the big fire below." He'd rather be in charge of it than in it.

dancrilis

2020-09-01, 05:50 PM

I doubt it. "Anything to avoid the big fire below." He'd rather be in charge of it than in it.

Except that the people who are running it are also in it, and apparently are bound by rules about what they can and cannot do on the material plane - Xykon is rules free (respecting the limits of his power).
I suspect that if Xykon was aware of how the gods hands were so tied he would consider divinity beneath him also.

Edea

2020-09-01, 07:56 PM

Edreyn

2020-09-02, 01:25 AM

I wonder if the Snarl will reveal itself to be a fully sapient entity capable of speech, only to present us with a very different version of what happened at the dawn of creation.

Trying to imagine being a cleric of the Snarl at the moment...

Actually I am imagining something like that too. Not thinking much about clerics, but I do expect Snarl, or someone who sympathizes him to present another point of view. Maybe in the end the Order will fight against gods to save the world.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-02, 08:02 AM

I suspect that they will find out the hard way that they are not. Their plot has some deep strategy to it, in that their avowed aim seems to be to knock the good gods off of their perch and even do away with them. That seems to me a much higher bar to leap over, and a more profound change to All Things, than the "I want to rule the world" objective that Xykon has professed.

Also I suspect that Xykon would think becoming a fiend is beneath him. Agree. I suspect he'd like one or two fiends as servants, maybe.

Metastachydium

2020-09-02, 09:58 AM

Actually I am imagining something like that too. Not thinking much about clerics, but I do expect Snarl, or someone who sympathizes him to present another point of view. Maybe in the end the Order will fight against gods to save the world.

Their plot has some deep strategy to it, in that their avowed aim seems to be to knock the good gods off of their perch and even do away with them.

The Order and the IFCC teaming up? That would be… Interesting.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-02, 10:14 AM

The Order and the IFCC teaming up? That would be… Interesting. Interesting idea, to be sure, but the wrench tossed into those gears is Durkon's loyalty to Thor. Beyond that, I am not sure that Roy, having been to Celestia, would be keen on fighting against the good gods. I think he wants to end up there. Going
into battle against the good gods with demons, devils, and daemons on his team might be a bit much for his next review with a Deva.

Metastachydium

2020-09-02, 10:22 AM

Interesting idea, to be sure, but the wrench tossed into those gears is Durkon's loyalty to Thor. Beyond that, I am not sure that Roy, having been to Celestia, would be keen on fighting against the good gods. I think he wants to end up there. Going
into battle against the good gods with demons, devils, and daemons on his team might be a bit much for his next review with a Deva.

Eh, once Durkon realizes Thor is Evil, the first one won't be an issue. As for Roy, he'll just tell the deva he was redirecting the fiends's destructive impulses towards a just cause. Worked fine last time.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-02, 11:21 AM

Eh, once Durkon realizes Thor is Evil Not gonna happen. Thor has empathy. See strip 1140 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html). I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me. (There are other markers and other strips, but that one stands out)

As for Roy, he'll just tell the deva he was redirecting the fiends's destructive impulses towards a just cause. Worked fine last time. There is a thing called "going to the well once too often" which may apply here. :smallcool:

Edea

2020-09-02, 08:04 PM

Oh, yeah, the Snarl's not suddenly going to be buddy-buddy or anything, or even particularly sympathetic.

Just positing that it's not necessarily the mindless engine of destruction the gods have painted it out to be. In fact, if that reveal were even a possibility, it'd probably happen in a conversation with Xykon, of all people.

There's no concrete evidence for this, either. The idea's mostly stemming from a probably-misguided suspicion that the Snarl's trying to 'weave' its own planets (like the one in the latest rift where Thor and Odin are like, "...uhhh?"), to generate some semblance of life that will appreciate it for what it is/worshiping it, and failing...over...and over...and over...and over...and over...

Precure

2020-09-03, 04:00 AM

Why? Like, everything in the afterlife is shaped by belief, so Roy and Horace can both have the Greenhilt family sword with no problem, so why would he believe that all of a sudden the arm disappears? And it's not as if Regenerate takes the old arm back, it creates a new arm. It'd also be weird to think that, if Tenrin were holding anything for the last however many years, he'd probably want to hold his wife rather than her disembodied arm (which he probably wouldn't know about, since he died when she lost it), and her arm almost certainly wouldn't form a part of how he sees himself. Even if he did maintain a "i never let go" attitude with the same ferocity as Sigdi, the claim there is "never let go of Sigdi," so it'd be more than just her arm there with him.

What if he's not in valhalla? He could be in one of those evil planes, and it could be his personal hell, designed to make hIm unhappy. Forced to hold his beloved's disembodied and rotting arm sounds perfect for that. That explains the sad "finally."

Peelee

2020-09-03, 08:32 AM

What if he's not in valhalla? He could be in one of those evil planes, and it could be his personal hell, designed to make hIm unhappy. Forced to hold his beloved's disembodied and rotting arm sounds perfect for that. That explains the sad "finally."

Well, even in that highly unlikely scenario (as he would have to skip Hel but then still end up in an Evil afterlife), again, Regenerate does not take the old body part back, it just creates an all-new one. So there would still be no reason for the arm he was holding to suddenly disappear. Especially when he wouldn't know when it was regenerated, and double especially if that was explicitly part of his damnation punishment.

dancrilis

2020-09-03, 08:40 AM

Regenerate does not take the old body part back, it just creates an all-new one.

If the afterlife is based on the ideas of mortals and Sigdi believes that he was holding it then he might have been holding it, and if she regenerated it the afterlife equivalent might disappear as she feels that she had her arm back.

Still I find it unlikely that he is carrying around a spare wife arm lying around his afterlife.

Peelee

2020-09-03, 08:54 AM

If the afterlife is based on the ideas of mortals and Sigdi believes that he was holding it then he might have been holding it, and if she regenerated it the afterlife equivalent might disappear as she feels that she had her arm back.

Still I find it unlikely that he is carrying around a spare wife arm lying around his afterlife.

Pretty sure belief affecting and shaping the afterlife isn't based on a wholly different person who isn't even in the afterlife.

dancrilis

2020-09-03, 09:01 AM

Pretty sure belief affecting and shaping the afterlife isn't based on a wholly different person who isn't even in the afterlife.

I would tend to agree - if it were multiple people maybe, but probably not just one.

understatement

2020-09-10, 10:27 PM

I'd like to throw in another unlikely prediction:

V will confess Familicide in front of everyone. I'm ambiguous on the timing, but I'm spitballing on them maybe? trying to persuade Redcloak to stand down.

Schroeswald

2020-09-15, 07:59 PM

Brumagris

2020-09-16, 09:59 AM

Here my set of crazy theories... I hope I am not copying anybody :)

*Oona is actually Serini in disguise

*O-Chul's death will be the catalyst for MITD rampage against Xykon

*MITD will reveal itself when charging and munching Xykon down to shreds

*IFCC will appear with a full army backing them up in the background: Tarquin's ex army and allies. Let's not forget that Sabine works for them and she has enough resources to become a leader after Tarquin is overthrown

*Vaarsuvius will vanquish IFCC as her supreme magic feat (how, though, I have no clue) and a step for atonement

*The world inside the rift was created by the Snarl will be a proof that the Snarl itself can create life. It will bring a new dimension to the conflict and this will not end up in destruction or permanent lockdown, rather on coexistence between the Gods' world and the Snarl's world

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-16, 03:13 PM

So I don't know if I think this will happen, I don't know if I want this to happen, I don't even know if I've already shared this in this thread, but I think that its quite possible that Roy isn't the one to destroy Xykon's skeleton, Belkar does right before his final death, redeeming him and sentencing Eugene to be stuck on the clouds forever. It fits, regardless of how much it will annoy Eugene.
*O-Chul's death will be the catalyst for MITD rampage against Xykon Fits, but I hope not.

*The world inside the rift was created by the Snarl will be a proof that the Snarl itself can create life. It will bring a new dimension to the conflict and this will not end up in destruction or permanent lockdown, rather on coexistence between the Gods' world and the Snarl's world In one of Rich's posts, or in one of the books, I am pretty sure that he stated clearly that The Snarl is The MacGuffin, not an antagonist.

Sir_Norbert

2020-09-16, 03:15 PM

It fits, regardless of how much it will annoy Eugene. Fits, but I hope not.
In one of Rich's posts, or in one of the books, I am pretty sure that he stated clearly that The Snarl is The MacGuffin, not an antagonist.

Doesn't matter how clearly he stated it -- authors can be wrong about their own work. In #945 we see the Snarl acting. It has agency. It is not a McGuffin.

hamishspence

2020-09-16, 03:32 PM

In one of Rich's posts, or in one of the books, I am pretty sure that he stated clearly that The Snarl is The MacGuffin, not an antagonist.

This is what The Giant said about The Snarl as MacGuffin:

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

Likewise, the setting is not the protagonist. What happens to the world is only important because the protagonists are the sort of people who care about what happens to the world. If Team Evil or the Linear Guild kills the entire Order of the Stick and then takes the Gate only to find that it does not do what they thought it did...how does that help the Order of the Stick? They will still be dead, and the story is about them. The Linear Guild is not a threat because they will do something bad with the Gate; they are a threat because they will kill the Order of the Stick to do it. At the end of Star Wars, one does not care that the Death Star is about to blow up Yavin 4; one cares that the Death Star is about to kill the protagonists, some of whom happen to be on Yavin 4.

If one does not care about the protagonists or antagonists and is not emotionally invested in their struggles—whether those struggles are external or internal, relevant to the MacGuffin plot or not—and all one cares about is the resolution of the MacGuffin chase, then you will almost certainly be bored with a lot of the material I'm producing. And more importantly, I won't care. The Snarl plot is part of the armature upon which I hang the characters' conflicts; it is not the whole of the story. The strip is titled The Order of the Stick, not The Chase for the Snarl or even Saving the World. Ultimately, it seems like you want the story to be about things it is not going to be about, so it's unlikely you are ever going to enjoy it.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-16, 03:46 PM

authors can be wrong about their own work. Nope. :smallconfused: I, on the other hand, can misquote or misremember what the author said about his own work. That's on me.

@hamishspence: thanks for finding that quote.

Schroeswald

2020-09-16, 04:14 PM

Death of the Author is a perfectly valid way to analyze literature. Death of the Author is an absolutely awful way to predict what will happen in an ongoing story. The author is the person who is writing, so if Rich says that the Snarl is a macguffin, and thus its exact powers don't matter to the plot, you can't use death of the author to dismiss that and say that in fact, what it can do will matter to what happens in book 7. You can say that the Snarl has agency and isn't a macguffin, but you can't say that agency will come into play, because the author said it wouldn't.

Metastachydium

2020-09-17, 11:38 AM

Edea

2020-09-17, 05:33 PM

(Quick question: how exactly does strip no. 945 prove that the Snarl has some some manner of „agency” we were not previously aware of? All said strip shows is the Snarl bursting out of an open Rift which is one of those things we kind of always knew it could do.)

It doesn't.

There's a possibility that somebody else (either from this world or a previous one) beat Xykon to the punch and has control over the Snarl already (having used its divine energy to make that planet, which is possibly said entity's BoO), but at this stage of the comic that would be a Giant Space Flea from Nowhere moment (i.e. not desirable). It would be someone from the main comic who we know already, and that just doesn't fit unless someone's been seriously holding out on us.

It could've been that the Snarl only targets life-forms, but the Crayons of Time segment implies the Snarl rips the planet physically into pieces, and Thor and Odin wouldn't have been mystified about a planet being inside the rift in #1150.

So something other than the gods made that planet; super-curious as to who or what.

EDIT: There's also a vanishingly small possibility that the Snarl did not annihilate all of the Eastern Pantheon, maybe even that in fact a member of the Eastern Pantheon managed to tap into the Snarl and used it to covertly murder the rest of his/her family (so extremely Evil) and then went into hiding with it, constantly absorbing whatever the Snarl soaks up from failed worlds that the other gods don't harvest quickly enough, but...yeah, I don't like that. As mentioned, Xykon's the antagonist.

Emanick

2020-09-17, 09:41 PM

Doesn't matter how clearly he stated it -- authors can be wrong about their own work. In #945 we see the Snarl acting. It has agency. It is not a McGuffin.

MacGuffins can act, to a limited degree. They just can't really be fully-fleshed out characters.

Picture a story where the MacGuffin is a rare bird that a large group of people are all trying to recapture (maybe it has diamonds for feathers or something, who knows). It doesn't stop being a MacGuffin if it's flying around wildly in the climactic scene, evading capture and complicating pursuit. It could even injure someone by shattering glass or knocking over a heavy object. Likewise, The Snarl can pose a real physical threat and lash out at characters without ceasing to be a MacGuffin. It may have some limited agency, but probably more on an animalistic level, like the diamond-feathered bird, than in any sort of meaningful character-development-y way.

Dion

2020-09-18, 12:05 PM

A Macguffin doesn’t have to be inert.

Private Ryan was a Macguffin.

The Death Star plans were a Macguffin.

The Lost Ark was a Macguffin.

I mean, sure, in the very narrow and limited sense, the only “real” Macguffins are things like the Maltese Falcon, which do nothing but take space in a bus locker until they’re not even at good for that anymore. And it’s fine if you choose to use the term in its narrowest sense.

But the term gets used a lot more broadly than that. And when you’re trying to analyze what other people mean when they say Macguffin, it may be helpful to acknowledge that they may be using a broader definition than you personally prefer.

Ron Miel

2020-09-19, 01:08 PM

Prediction: Bounty hunters will come after Elan. When he says "I'm not Nale" they will simply say "we know, you're the one we're after." He is of course still wanted for mass murder in Cliffport.

Schroeswald

2020-09-19, 01:40 PM

Prediction: Bounty hunters will come after Elan. When he says "I'm not Nale" they will simply say "we know, you're the one we're after." He is of course still wanted for mass murder in Cliffport.

Why? As far as they know it was Nale who did all the crimes, Nale who was arrested and Nale who broke free (or maybe Nale who just kind of blew up and died).

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-19, 02:31 PM

Why? As far as they know it was Nale who did all the crimes, Nale who was arrested and Nale who broke free (or maybe Nale who just kind of blew up and died). Or, it was Nale who faked his own death to escape the law from Cliffport. :smallcool:

Ron Miel

2020-09-19, 02:57 PM

Why? As far as they know it was Nale who did all the crimes, Nale who was arrested and Nale who broke free (or maybe Nale who just kind of blew up and died).

Ah, yes. Good point. I must be half asleep.

hungrycrow

2020-09-21, 07:02 AM

Ah, yes. Good point. I must be half asleep.

I thought this was all setup to a joke about them nailing not-nale.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-21, 08:03 AM

There's also a vanishingly small possibility that the Snarl did not annihilate all of the Eastern Pantheon There's an interesting thought: the Snarl captured/kidnapped the Eastern Pantheon, rather than slew them. :smallcool:

JSSheridan

2020-09-21, 01:11 PM

At this point, the only way Durkon might earn Redcloak's trust is to save RC's life

Dion

2020-09-21, 02:50 PM

At this point, the only way Durkon might earn Redcloak's trust is to save RC's life

This is an interesting idea. I like it.

Lexible

2020-10-05, 11:09 AM

Peelee

2020-10-05, 11:24 AM

More evidence to support my prediction: Oona is a ranger (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1216.html). :smallsmile:

Having the Track feat does not necessarily make one a Ranger.

Metastachydium

2020-10-05, 11:31 AM

Having the Track feat does not necessarily make one a Ranger.

How about Track and an animal companion?

Akrasiel

2020-10-05, 07:33 PM

Hmm...

Belkar will cast a spell.

V will start slinging 9th level spells. One of which (Disjunction) will target an artifact (at least three that have been been referenced so far).

V will lose all spellcasting abilities permanently.

Peelee

2020-10-05, 07:42 PM

How about Track and an animal companion?

Druid with Track.:smalltongue:

Granted, I do think she's a Ranger. I'm just showing how it's not conclusive.

KorvinStarmast

2020-10-05, 08:38 PM

Belkar will cast a spell.

It's been done (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). :smallsmile:

V will start slinging 9th level spells. One of which (Disjunction) will target an artifact (at least three that have been been referenced so far). By the end of the book? Seems a safe bet.

V will lose all spellcasting abilities permanently. Because of what?

Bilbo Baggins

2020-10-05, 08:59 PM

This is what The Giant said about The Snarl as MacGuffin:

I know I'm a little late to the Snarl MacGuffin discussion, but that quote reads as though he's talking about the role the Snarl plays in that part of the story, during Book 5. I don't think we can conclude that the Snarl is confined to the role of MacGuffin for the rest of the story.

understatement

2020-10-05, 09:17 PM

Because of what?

Disjoining objects artifacts have a chance of stripping the caster permanently of all spellcasting abilities.

Metastachydium

2020-10-06, 04:37 AM

Druid with Track.:smalltongue:

…but no spells and good at Two-Weapon Fighting.

Granted, I do think she's a Ranger. I'm just showing how it's not conclusive.

Feh, nothing ever is, nothing ever is.

KorvinStarmast

2020-10-06, 10:42 AM

Disjoining objects artifacts have a chance of stripping the caster permanently of all spellcasting abilities.Aha, there's my not much 3.5 mastery at work, thank you. :smallsmile:

Akrasiel

2020-10-06, 05:44 PM

It's been done. :smallsmile:

Hah, totally fair. Say then that he'll do so without the added boost.

KorvinStarmast

2020-10-06, 07:29 PM

It's been done. :smallsmile:

Hah, totally fair. Say then that he'll do so without the added boost. In which case the Order is doomed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0922.html).
:roy: OK, now I know we're doomed. Belkar is acting like a Ranger

BloodSquirrel

2020-10-07, 09:55 AM

I'm going to lay these out right now:

Redcloak will die a tragic (in the classic sense) death- ie, a death brought on by his tragic flaws. This includes both his sunken cost fallacy and his specism which underlies his rhetoric about "equality". I suspect that Xykon will be the one to kill him (either directly or through a certain SoD spoiler), and that he will not redeem himself beyond (possibly) admitting that he was wrong in his dying moments and making some token contribution to killing Xykon. Redcloak will die a failure, not a hero.
Related to the above, whatever path that goblinoid-human relations take toward betterment will not go through Redcloak. Redcloak will, before he dies, do something that causes or nearly causes catastrophic harm to the goblinoids, and it will be through rejecting Redcloak's leadership (and possibly even that of TDO) that gets the peace process started.
There isn't going to be a perfect peace right away. What we'll see is going to be more along the lines of a truce that lays the groundwork for developing relations in the future.
Xykon is going to have a major moment where he reveals that Redcloak has underestimated him again, which is going to lead to their relationship finally breaking. We're going to find out, at the very least, that Xykon didn't buy Redcloak's story about Tsukiko's death, and Redcloak having his phylactery isn't going to give him as much leverage over Xykon as he thinks it will.
Xykon is also going to show that he isn't terribly committed to the plan before the end. Once he realizes that the whole thing is going to bust he's going to come up with some other plot, or reveal that he's had one waiting in the wings for some time now, and he's going to give someone a speech about not letting yourself get attached to something that's no longer useful to you, dramatically highlighting again why he's the butch and Redcloak is the bitch.

Not completely confident in, but worth listing just in case they come through:

The purple quibble with either come from sacrificing The Mantle or from some source other than TDO /Redcloak.