Need help designing a 3rd-level PHB-only PC with NO concern for future development

[Jay R]

I'm designing a character for a one-shot. This is a golden opportunity to focus on an approach that is good at this level but doesn't have any growth potential.

So what are the good ideas at low level that are roadblocks for advancement?

The character's stats will be 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, in any order. I can trade away 2-for-1, but can't advance anything past 18. PHB only.

So what would work? I'm giving some thought to a martial, simply because there is no concern about high levels.

I also realize that a wizard will only have up to 2nd level spells, so INT 14 gives just as many bonus spells as INT 18.

So does anybody have any ideas for a fun 3rd-level one-shot character?

[Quentinas]

Probably if I should do a 3rd level character PHB for a one shot i would use a Ranger, especially if i'm not alone because it would be somewhat difficult with what i have in mind for the race halfling,it should not be a problem

Stats preracial
Strength 17
Dexterity 18
Constitution 16
Wisdom 14
Intelligence 16
Charisma 11

I traded two from 13 for one to the 15
Feats
1°Point blank shot
2° style bonus Rapid shot
3° Precise shot
Abilities (each with max ranks) Move silently , Hide, Search, Listen, Spot, Survival, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (dungeoneering), Swim
For equip i should see again in the player handbook because now i can't see that because is in another house

[Jay R]

More information from the DM:

Weapon and armor should be +1, and you can add a +1 enhancement special ability (or just a +2 if you don't want the ability).

Any standard PH equipment as long as its 200 gp or under. You each get a horse (except heavy warhorse) with tack.

500 gp to spend on scrolls or potions. Money does not matter since it is a one off, so spend it all.

If you want something that is outside these guidelines, let me know, and I'll decide.

----

If there is a wondrous item within the 500 gp magic item limit, you can get that also.

Quentinas: thank you for your suggestion. Since I am playing with the rules, I'd like to suggest something.

The third level of Ranger only gives +1 BAB, +1 Will save, Endurance, and 1d8 hit points. Now higher levels give cool things, so normally, I wouldn't go off the path. But here I'm considering things that don't usually make sense. So here is a modification I'm looking at, and I'd like people's critiques:

1. Make him a Ranger 2/Fighter 1. Instead of +1 Will save, he'd get +2 Fort save. Instead of Endurance, he'd get a bonus feat, which could be Far Shot or Weapon Focus (bow). And of course, he'd get d10 hp instead of d8. It would also cost 4 skill points.

So 4 skill points, +1 Will save and Endurance, vs. 1-2 hp, +2 Fort save, and bonus feat. Which is better?

That suggestion is simply based on the fact that Ranger 3 isn't a power level, and this character will never reach Ranger 4.

[Quentinas]

My answer is : it depends . In combat a figther level is way more useful than a ranger 3rd level i will admit that, but if the character is designed to be able to go in the wild without problems maybe the ranger level is better , even only for the skills , if the fighter level is taken probably i would take something like improved initiative as feat so it would be able to start as first , and even if it doesn't have sneak attack negate dexterity in each case is useful (even only to hide in a better way) or far shot because even that is useful. Weapon focus i think is not so much needed , we are talking at the end of a 3 (bab)+5(dexterity)+1(masterwork)+1( size) bonus to attack roll. Rapid shot give a penalty but +8 is still good. For the equipment is not bad as thing because within 200 gp there is the everburning torch, and for the armor maybe a chain shirt?

[Palanan]

I'd say Ranger 2/Fighter 1 should be fine for a one-shot. It's the extra combat feat that tips the balance for me, since as you point out you can invest in something that can be used every round, rather than situationally. You're not qualifying for anything, so Endurance is close to useless here.

[Quentinas]

I know endurance is useless i was more concerned on skill points to be honest (i like class with good skillpoints )

[Endarire]

What about going Cleric or Druid with these rules? You have high enough stats to cover casting and other things fairly well.

[eversilentone]

Why not Sorcerer 2/ Rogue 1? 1d6 SA plus weapon-like spells is decent and if you have recommended WBL then you've got some great options for magic items, and MAD isn't an issue given the lack of need to pump a primary casting stat. On that basis, Sorcerer 1/ Rogue 1/Cleric 1 is also good as you'd have more than enough spells for a one-shot when backed up by consumable magic items. If no WBL then personally I'd just go Rogue 3 for a ranged SA build as that's great damage for this level where skills are still pretty relevant.

[Him]

Ranged or melee?
Melee suggestion: Barb2/fighter1 flaming spiked chain wielder with combat reflexes. Combat reflexes and uncanny dodge stack nicely when getting charged when using a reach weapon. Alt is greatsword wielder, that walks aroung with a halberd (or something) which after the first round he just plain drops (to be picked up after battle) then draws main weapon. But OP-ville is if you get your DM to OK the 2nd bonus on the weapon to change into 6k gp worth of magical items. Sounds weird but a ring of enlarge will give you 10' reach nsturally, and the other 4k goes on consumables or whatever, but that last bit is outside your design parameters.

Ranged suggestion: ranger 2/ cleric or druid 1. This one's magic weapon needs DM approval, but the magic weapon is my own personal ring design of continuous Produce Fire at caster level 4. (Can bump down to caster level 3 if you want a stock standard +1 back up weapon.) Rapid shot with a 1d6+4 ranged touch attack removes the need for precise shot and if you chuck on weapon focus (ranged touch attack) you are looking at 2 +5 attacks each round that ignore armor, assuming you put 18 in dex. Twinky option is if you go halfling.(+1 size,+1 Extra dex bonus and the spell description says you throw the fire so that additional +1 racial a total of +8 and that is after the -2 for rapid fire is counted). As long as you don't go against fire creatures you'll be the main DPS of the party.


That and if your DM will allow a partially charged cure was at gp cost of percentage charged, you can also be a reasonable healer if needed in the back lines. Tanglefoot bags are great for CC at low levels so check them out.

These confront the bottlenecks I have encountered at low levels which are:
caster don't have good damage spells yet. (Come on fire ball!!)
Surprise rounds can kill (can be tweaked to a max of uncanny+reach+Combat reflexes+improved trip).
Attack bonuses are still sucky (so lets go with ignoring armor attacks).

GL and happy gaming.

P.s. your stats, is the 2 for 1 from a single stat? Or can you even the 15 and 13 out to bump the 17 to 18. Probably not, but people keep insisting there are no stupid questions........

RE: the person above asking about a druid. Yes there could be fun to be had with a druid with augment summoning and whose main weapon is 8k worth of summoning scrolls. Crocodile ftw!

P.p.s honorable mention the CC (crowd control) wiz with 8k worth of scrolls as his main weapon! DM won't allow? Ask the DM for a days prep time in game ,sell you +2 weapon for 4k and do the same! Read the rules for activating higher levels spells. Feats? Quick draw, toughness and (if human) either improved initiative or toughness again. Small sized caster is good for the a.c., and who cares about str on a wiz? Gnome illusionist, need to select dropped schools with care to cover your scroll selection. Be a gun boat. And can switch quick draw for toughness if you want too!

[Jay R]

What about going Cleric or Druid with these rules? You have high enough stats to cover casting and other things fairly well.

I've thought about it, and I'm ready to listen to everyone's ideas. But the best part of being a caster is knowing what power is coming later. What are the cool things to do with a 3rd level Cleric or Druid? How would you design him to take advantage of 3rd level?


I know endurance is useless i was more concerned on skill points to be honest (i like class with good skillpoints )

Good point. What about a Ranger 2 / Rogue 1, to gain extra skill points and sneak attack, at a cost of Endurance and a d6 hp instead of d8? He would have ranged sneak attack with Rapid Shot and Precise Shot. That's potentially two sneak attacks into melee each round.

Also, does anybody know if the 1d6 sneak attack shrinks to 1d4 for a halfling like weapon damage does?? If not, that alone might make it worth it.


I'd say Ranger 2/Fighter 1 should be fine for a one-shot. It's the extra combat feat that tips the balance for me, since as you point out you can invest in something that can be used every round, rather than situationally. You're not qualifying for anything, so Endurance is close to useless here.

That's true, but Quentinas is right about the skill points. It's not clear to me which would be better. I have noticed that the extra feat can be anything, since the Precise Shot at 3rd level can become the Fighter bonus feat, and now the normal 3rd level feat is free to be anything.


Why not Sorcerer 2/ Rogue 1? 1d6 SA plus weapon-like spells is decent and if you have recommended WBL then you've got some great options for magic items, and MAD isn't an issue given the lack of need to pump a primary casting stat. On that basis, Sorcerer 1/ Rogue 1/Cleric 1 is also good as you'd have more than enough spells for a one-shot when backed up by consumable magic items. If no WBL then personally I'd just go Rogue 3 for a ranged SA build as that's great damage for this level where skills are still pretty relevant.

Interesting ideas. I had considered Ranger 2 / Sorcerer 1, just to give him truestrike and enlarge.

Sorcerer 1/ Rogue 1/Cleric 1 is at BAB 0. Sorcerer 2 / Rogue 1 is only BAB +1. The value of sneak attack goes down when you are less likely to hit.

----

Everybody, please keep making suggestions. I'm learning a lot, about more options than whichever one I'll wind up using.

[Him]

Self buffing is useless in a one off, better but a few pots with your money and focus on doing damage or crowd control.same goes for healing a single level and a fully charged wand to of cure light will support the party better that guy who can AT MOST cast the spell 6 times. Summoning is good if you go the augment summoning with a stack of scrolls.

Arcane spells hypnotism, sleep, hypnotic pattern and glitterdust, when focused on, I have wowed experienced parties with the use of.

Wow that was much shorter then my last post (which didn't even get a mention, *sniff sniff* no more advice for you from me! :p ) well maybe just a little more, dont forget to pay your taxes.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
Also, does anybody know if the 1d6 sneak attack shrinks to 1d4 for a halfling like weapon damage does??

I don’t see anything in the PHB about this, and I’ve never heard this prospect mentioned before. The extra 1d6 comes from hitting something sensitive, rather than hitting something harder, so I wouldn’t think a halfling would change that.


Originally Posted by Jay R
What are the cool things to do with a 3rd level Cleric or Druid? How would you design him to take advantage of 3rd level?

Without wildshape a druid is essentially a cleric with slightly fewer spells, plus a rather mediocre furry pal. As much as I love druids, if there isn't a strong story-related reason to play a druid in this scenario, then you might as well go for the cleric.

If it were me, I might just go straight rogue, since that at least gets you 2d6 sneak attack, plus a double handful of skill points. I can think of a character I'd play on that chassis right now.

.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gnome, Barbarian 1/ Fighter 2, masterwork or +1 lance, riding dog, max ride skill, Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge. Dump the mental stats to max out your physical stats. A Forest Gnome (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnome.htm#forestGnome) gets more stuff and it's in the core MM.

If you think you'll encounter undead, Cleric 3, Sun domain, Improved Turning. A decent and thematic second domain would be Fire or Healing, depending on whether you prefer to nuke or support. Dwarf is probably the best race to use for this, dump Dex and Int.

Wood Elf (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#woodElf) is in the core MM, and gets Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2. Decent for a lightly armored melee build, like a TWF Rogue 1/ Ranger 2, or even a Monk if you're into that.

Unguent of Timelessness (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) is core, as is NPC spellcasting services (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell). So a caster level 20 Greater Magic Weapon would cost 600 gp, and last 20x365 hours on a weapon that's had the unguent applied to it. It doesn't work on objects that weren't alive, so only wood or bone or similar, but a bow could be made into a +5 weapon for the duration of the adventure. Works on (leather, hide, dragonhide) armor and (wooden, dragonhide) shields with Magic Vestment as well.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
*MM stuff*

Per thread title, this is PHB-only, so items from the MM probably won’t fly.


Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou
If you think you'll encounter undead, Cleric 3, Sun domain, Improved Turning. A decent and thematic second domain would be Fire or Healing, depending on whether you prefer to nuke or support. Dwarf is probably the best race to use for this, dump Dex and Int.

This is solid, and would certainly fit with the classic vibe I’m getting.

This sounds like a lot of fun, actually.

[Him]

Without wildshape a druid is essentially a cleric with slightly fewer spells, plus a rather mediocre furry pal. As much as I love druids, if there isn't a strong story-related reason to play a druid in this scenario, then you might as well go for the cleric.

.

That's because you are stuck focused on wildshape which is the coolest thing about druid AT HIGH LEVEL! Which you need a whole bunch on melee feats for. ( druid splash 2 monk for improved grab,wis bonus to ac and stunning fist maybe anyone, but power gaming as planning an alignment change just to OP).

The produce fire spell, even cast, produces ridiculously good for results when combined with rapid fire up until around 8th level (without metamagic feats, which is why I designed the ring of produce fire with the meta built in). The only reason I never played this build is because is DOES suck at high levels as produce fire doesn't work (even the metamagic version drops off after around 12-15 level) can go archery after that, but arrows are expensive, and a druid does really have any d event spells at high level,( because they should be using abilities from wildshape).

A rogue sneak attacking, dual wielding I presume? I doubt the DM will allow 2x +2 weapons, halfling to maximise attack bonus? Say +1 weapon each hand. +2bab+1size+5weaponfinese+1weapon-2dual. +7 total against a mob that (chain shirt, shield and +1 dex?) Has an ac 17, just for a mob? Oh forgot the flanking bonus(so up to +9), so a 60% hit rate and leaving your butt floating in melee combat with(6+2×3.5+3×3) 21 to and an a.c of (studded leather,dex,size)19 ish. damage at around 1d4+2d6 +(2 to 4). In the best of conditions.

My druid? Should I flank as well? Because you can do that with ranged. Basically same attack bonus with a thrown touch attack (so the mob has ac 11) in this case. 90% hit rate and with a simple 1d6+3 each hit with the same a.c., wait, druid gets a shields! 21 a.c., with 4 more hp out of combat,riding the furry friend to make up the sucky base movement. My magic weapon since this is casting the spell? +1 composite shortbow of fire (or lightning for damage variation).1d4+1d6 (2to4).

So, trade off, yeah my guy does do as much damage per hit, and without casting a spell he hits just as frequent (if using masterwork arrows, a little more so) but the a.c. is as good or better more hp, not in melee with d6 hp. Not as many skill point, sure, but how many skill points will you spend on all the "necessary" thief skills, how many yo uh got free just to have fun with. You don't have anymore skill point than me to "play"with. You got evasion and uncany dodge? I got 2 2nd level spells. Go a cleric over the druid? Well sure, i can make kick ass one of those as well. Better than my druid, i'm not so sure buddy, maybe you need some more lessons in character creation.

But my ranged cleric is over at fav ranged/archery build thread.
You will notice the custom produce fire ring that was inspired from this build, or were you after a melee.

But here I am giving advice to people who aren't acknowledging. So here this a question of my own, does the guy who started this thread want melee, ranged or support, because at low-level, you really need to pick one of those and dabble in another unless you wanna play a bard, which is where you dabble in them all(And you won't be getting my bard). Do you actually have a play style in mind of your own? Need me to give you you more of my character build or do you have something of your own that I can work with?

[Quentinas]

Ranger 2 /Rogue 1 can be a good idea, it would be able to do enough damage, even if he is of small size with a good hide is possible to do sneak attacks every round
Another idea could be a straight fighter 3 , as you has an horse you could try to do a fighter based on mounted combat , for the race human can be good
Barbarian 1/Figther 2
Strenght 18
Constitution 18
Dexterity 16
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 14
Charisma 14
Remmoved 2 from the 13 to give 1 to the 17
Feats
1° level Mounted combat
2° level bonus Ride by attack
3° level bonus Spirited charge
3° level Power attack
You can put a skill focus (ride), or a weapon focus (lance) as the human feat bonus , the first would be better to be able to tank thanks to the ride skill use, the second would be better for the combat (especially when you use power attack)
Skills: 6 ranks ride , 6 ranks in handle animals, 6 ranks in intimidate, 4 ranks in Listen , 4 ranks in Survival
The idea is to charge with your horse doing good damage, and using ride to avoid that the mount take damage, the first level is barbarian only because is better for hitpoints and skills

[MultitudeMan]

I recommend the Horizon Tripper (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) a lot in this sort of situation. The alternate route of Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 is probably the best at level 3, as you get all the front-loaded loveliness of each martial class. You'll be martial BFC, with reasonable damage off an 18 STR, and have decent scouting skills too. I don't have book access, so don't know how much the build relies on access to the DMG, though.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Given the generous stats and strictly low level, why not take the opportunity and go for a Monk?

Say, Monk 2/Rogue 1 could do well with the multiple attacks with which to sneak.

[Jay R]

Wow. Lots of suggestions have come in. I’ll try to process them all.

Him: lots of interesting ideas. I wasn’t ignoring you. Your post hadn’t arrived when I started writing my last one.

First of all, no unusual weapons -- +1 with a standard +1 enhancement, or +2. Magic weapon; magic armor, plus 500 gp of potions, scrolls, or Wondrous items. No unusual items either -- straight out of the DMG. The tanglefoot bag idea will fly though. Whatever else I do, I'm using that one.

Secondly, I've been running a horizon tripper for the last few years, and I'm not interested in doing it for a one-shot. [For the same reason, I'm not looking at a gnome illusionist.]


P.s. your stats, is the 2 for 1 from a single stat? Or can you even the 15 and 13 out to bump the 17 to 18. Probably not, but people keep insisting there are no stupid questions........

They must come from the same one. Some stat has to lose a +1 to a modifier to raise another one. [I tried that in an earlier game.]


These confront the bottlenecks I have encountered at low levels which are:
caster don't have good damage spells yet. (Come on fire ball!!)
Surprise rounds can kill (can be tweaked to a max of uncanny+reach+Combat reflexes+improved trip).
Attack bonuses are still sucky (so lets go with ignoring armor attacks).

Thanks for this analysis. Anybody else have anything to add on what bottlenecks we should be addressing?


Why not Sorcerer 2/ Rogue 1? 1d6 SA plus weapon-like spells is decent and if you have recommended WBL then you've got some great options for magic items, and MAD isn't an issue given the lack of need to pump a primary casting stat. On that basis, Sorcerer 1/ Rogue 1/Cleric 1 is also good as you'd have more than enough spells for a one-shot when backed up by consumable magic items. If no WBL then personally I'd just go Rogue 3 for a ranged SA build as that's great damage for this level where skills are still pretty relevant.

I don't have WBL. I have a +2 weapon, +2 armor, and 500 gp. [And a horse.] Yes, the weapons and armor are more than 3rd level WBL, but I'm sure he won't let us sell them to buy something else. His exact words were "Since this is a one-off, I don't want anything too complex."

Rogue 3 makes sense, but I'm intrigued by the Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Sneak Attack combo of the Ranger 2 / Rogue 1. That's two ranged sneak attacks into melee each round.

Biffoniacus_Furiou, there’s no Forest gnome or Wood Elf, and only 500 gp except for the basic weapon and armor.

Him: I’m not thinking double-wielding. I’m thinking a bow or sling with two shots into melee each round. Yes, of course that character would be a halfling. And I don’t need to produce a mount; we are each being given a horse.


But here I am giving advice to people who aren't acknowledging.

I’m getting there. I’m not on this board 24/7.


So here this a question of my own, does the guy who started this thread want melee, ranged or support, because at low-level, you really need to pick one of those and dabble in another unless you wanna play a bard, which is where you dabble in them all(And you won't be getting my bard). Do you actually have a play style in mind of your own? Need me to give you you more of my character build or do you have something of your own that I can work with?

The first answer is that I’m looking for a build I would never play if he were going to continue to advance. I’m comfortable in any roll. But I expect that I’m the only one taking this approach, and that others will have basic builds that can grow.

If I go ranged, it will probably be the Ranger 2 / Rogue 1. 2 sneak attacks per round at that level will be very useful. Your druid idea requires a non-standard use of a spell that I’m not likely to get.

I’m trying to get clues about the scenario from the DM. If he hints at undead, I might go with Biffoniacus_Furiou’s Sun Domain cleric.

I started with the idea of a Ranger/Fighter melee fighter, but that’s what’s I’m been doing in another game, so probably not.

But right now, what I’m really doing is playing with the setup, and looking for unique ideas that only work for a 3rd level one-shot.

Quentinas, I like your mounted Fighter build. But even though I’ll have a horse, I have no how much of the adventure will be outside in open terrain. I don’t want to create a build that might be useless at the climactic dungeon, swamp, or jungle.


I recommend the Horizon Tripper (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)) a lot in this sort of situation.

He’s not a Horizon Tripper until level 6 or so. That build becomes great when you can add Horizon Walker. Also, that’s what I’ve been playing lately.


The alternate route of Ranger 1 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 is probably the best at level 3, as you get all the front-loaded loveliness of each martial class. You'll be martial BFC, with reasonable damage off an 18 STR, and have decent scouting skills too. I don't have book access, so don't know how much the build relies on access to the DMG, though.

I haven’t eliminated the idea. But he would lose 8 skill points if his first level is Barbarian instead of Ranger. And I dislike the idea of becoming a barbarian after first level; that’s now how growing up uncivilized works. I know it’s in the rules, but I don’t like it. So if I went the melee route, it would probably be a two-weapon or two-handed-weapon Ranger 2 / Fighter 1. [Hmmmm… I don’t know if the magic weapon can be two-ended, like an urgosh or double sword.]

On that note, are the dwarven urgosh and the quarterstaff the only two-ended weapons that a 3rd level can use without an exotic weapon proficiency? [Yes, and the gnome hooked hammer. But I won't build a melee fighter gnome.]

So let’s reduce the option to those three:
1. Ranger 2/ Rogue 1, to combine rapid shot, precise shot, and sneak attack.
2. Sun Domain cleric 3 to be ready for undead.
3. Melee build with two weapons or a two-handed weapon. At least Ranger 2, to give Two-Weapon Fighting.

The cleric build is only going to happen if I successfully get clues out of the DM that convince me undead are coming.

So please offer me advice on these three builds (or another that is clearly superior to one of these three at what it’s supposed to be).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
1. Ranger 2/ Rogue 1, to combine rapid shot, precise shot, and sneak attack.

As an alternative, kukri are in the PHB, so a halfling ranger/rogue for stealth and crit-fishing? Just a thought.


Originally Posted by Jay R
2. Sun Domain cleric 3 to be ready for undead.

Do you know if anyone else is playing a cleric? If not, even if there aren’t many undead, this could be a handy build for the parameters you’ve described, since it doesn’t sound like wands of healing will be on the table.


Originally Posted by Jay R
3. Melee build with two weapons or a two-handed weapon. At least Ranger 2, to give Two-Weapon Fighting.

Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 might be worth considering. I know you don’t like the overall idea of barbarian after another class—but after all, this is a one-shot, and adding rage and fast movement to a ranger chassis sounds worthwhile.

Storywise, I could easily see a ranger making contact with a barbarian tribe, living among them and learning their ways, and eventually being adopted into the tribe. A bit basic, but it could work.

[MultitudeMan]

He’s not a Horizon Tripper until level 6 or so. That build becomes great when you can add Horizon Walker. Also, that’s what I’ve been playing lately.
OK, point taken, and I can imagine it's less fun if you've already been playing it recently.



I haven’t eliminated the idea. But he would lose 8 skill points if his first level is Barbarian instead of Ranger. And I dislike the idea of becoming a barbarian after first level; that’s not how growing up uncivilized works. I know it’s in the rules, but I don’t like it.

Well, there is precedent, but I know Barbarian Guild can't allow anyone to join. There must be a test first (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html).

[Endarire]

Druid3 means you get your first animal companion boost to HD, you get level 2 spells, and your first feat after level 1. You can cast barkskin, summon hippogriffs, and cast flaming sphere - all while your war trained riding dog eats face. Plus, you can max Spot, Listen, and Survival, which you seemed to want. (I played a Druid3 who saved the party's life by summoning hippogriffs while we were in a very long free fall. The animal companion - a riding dog - was helpful for flanking with her party mates and tripping foes.)

Cleric3 means you can summon spiritual weapons, Turn Undead with a bonus from 5+ Knowledge: Religion ranks, and afford medium or heavy armor if you want. (I prefer a Mithril Chain Shirt and a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes so I can poke at stuff as I summon.) A Human could get Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, and Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain. A Dwarf, Half-Orc, or non-Human could drop Imp Init and still be well-off.

Remember, these classes can heal as well as hurt stuff physically.

[Piggy Knowles]

Another thing a druid 3 can do that Endarire didn't mention is use shillelagh to create a +1 double weapon that deals 2d6 base damage on each side, meaning that at this level a druid can actually do some decent damage with TWF (more than a Power Attacker could do at this level with the PHB only) on top of having a riding dog and 2nd level spells.

EDIT: oh, missed the bit about getting a free +2 weapon. That makes the spell a little less impressive at this level, but it's still a decent option.

[Jay R]

OK, I've pretty well decided to go with a halfling Ranger 2 / Rogue 1, for the two sneak attacks into melee. So I want some specific advice on that build.

1. His ranged weapon will be +1, and some ability that adds 1d6 to the damage -- fire, frost, sonic, or merciful. I've never taken a merciful weapon before, but it looks like a good idea here. Unlike the other three, it will apply to all opponents while some are immune to fire damage, or cold, or sonic. It still drops the enemy at the same time; the only different is you can choose to keep the enemy alive, or just cut his throat. Am I missing something obvious?

2. I've never taken a sling before, but the halfling's +1 to attack with the sling will mean one more successful hit, and he'll have +3 due to 16 STR on the damage. So isn't the sling more useful than a bow would be?
composite longbow: 1d6 + 1 + 1d6 (magic damage) + 1d6 (if sneak attack) = average of 8 hp, or 11.5 with sneak attack
sling: 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6(magic damage) + 1d6 (if sneak attack) = average of 9.5 hp, or 13 with sneak attack, and he hits one more time out of twenty.

3. His armor will be a Chain shirt of nimbleness +1, for a max +5 Dex bonus and a 0 AC penalty. Any better ideas than this?

Thank you all. The advice has been very helpful, and I have two more build ideas I wish I could use.

[Him]

I understand you're not logged 24/7, I was just sulking a little because you posted a few times without acknowledging my effort, so thanks for the mention.

As this palanan build selection, P would be the person to refer to, but the advice I have?

1.Merciful weapon? Has to look it up, and wondered "why?" Unless you have role playing reasons (like making a man-catcher build which would actually suit a rogue/ranger build), and chucking merciful on a sap. Plus no good against undead or constructs. I'm fond of a classic so fire is good, lightning(or other) is playing the numbers. Your character, so go nuts buddy.

2. Hmm, missing composite long bow can have strength bonus, while sling cant. Rework the math.

3. https://forums.giantitp.com/archive/index.php/t-105684.html
But my take on armor was try and build up multiple sources like a ring of prot or some, helps deal with touch attacks with the same a.c. and same or less cost.

P.s. I would actually go gun boat scroll mage option, but as a human for a one off like this. What can I say, I,'ve gotten paranoid with age.

And double check the nimbleness bonus, you're off, and you stated PHB only, that's MiC, better check with your DM. Should be fine though.

[Him]

For a hafling themed ranged option, try a fan of javelin on your back. Throw bonus, str bonus, and you character wouldn't look too bad.

Not the maxed out option, sure but at least would have some flavor of its own!

[Khedrac]

OK, I've pretty well decided to go with a halfling Ranger 2 / Rogue 1, for the two sneak attacks into melee. So I want some specific advice on that build.At level 3 I would advise against this (not the classes, the proposed combat strategy)...

You are unlikely to be getting sneak attacks after the first round of combat unless you have somewhere to hide. If you plan to duck round a corner, then the chances are you will only get one sneak attack every two rounds!
The rules on how sniping works are not very clear (at least they exist) but..
Round 1 - move from where enemy cannot see you to where they can (move action) single attack
Round 2 - single attack, move back to where you cannot be seen.
Round 3 - repeat round 1.
And this is with a kind DM.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.
Combat is pretty much the definition of your enemies observing you...

So, in general, your only chance for sneak attacks with a ranged weapon is first round of combat if targets are within 30' (and then you can rapid shot).

You also will have your feats pre-determined: point blank shot and precise shot. (Sorry, no Improved Initiative for actually going first to get sneak attack, you will have to rely on your excellent dexterity.)
Don't get me wrong, they are good feats, but you really need to learn the rules for cover and ranged attacks.
Precise shot will remove the -4 penalty for firing into melee - hooray.
However, if there are melee in the party, the chances are good that your targets will be getting their +4 bonus to AC from cover. (See pages 150-151 of the PHB). This rather negates the +1 from Point Blank Shot.

Also, if the party melee is a tripper, that's another -4 to hit the tripped target (unlike melee who get a +4).

So, I am not saying "don't do this", but be aware of the drawbacks.


1. His ranged weapon will be +1, and some ability that adds 1d6 to the damage -- fire, frost, sonic, or merciful. I've never taken a merciful weapon before, but it looks like a good idea here. Unlike the other three, it will apply to all opponents while some are immune to fire damage, or cold, or sonic. It still drops the enemy at the same time; the only different is you can choose to keep the enemy alive, or just cut his throat. Am I missing something obvious?
I don't think you are missing anything obvious, but if you know the focus of the adventure then bane is probably a better choice than an energy. Oh, sonic isn't in the DMG so I think that is off your table, and merciful doesn't work on undead and constructs. If going for an energy I think I would go frost then electricity.
If MIC weapons are available (and looking at your armor choice they may be) then screaming (sonic damage) is only 1d4, but for me the best +1 is sacred.


2. I've never taken a sling before, but the halfling's +1 to attack with the sling will mean one more successful hit, and he'll have +3 due to 16 STR on the damage. So isn't the sling more useful than a bow would be?
composite longbow: 1d6 + 1 + 1d6 (magic damage) + 1d6 (if sneak attack) = average of 8 hp, or 11.5 with sneak attack
sling: 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6(magic damage) + 1d6 (if sneak attack) = average of 9.5 hp, or 13 with sneak attack, and he hits one more time out of twenty.
Since you are not spending a set amount of gold, if you go for a bow it should be composite +3 so that part is the same, this makes your trade +1 to hit and 1d3 damage vs. 1d6 damage, i.e. +1 to hit or +1.5 average damage.
The problem with this question is you only really know the answer to it after you play the adventure and you see how hard the creatures are to hit. If you think you will be firing in to melee a lot, you need the +1 to hit (which I would probably choose anyway).


3. His armor will be a Chain shirt of nimbleness +1, for a max +5 Dex bonus and a 0 AC penalty. Any better ideas than this?
Annoyingly no - it seems a terrible waste of a +1 bonus, but it suites your character well.


Thank you all. The advice has been very helpful, and I have two more build ideas I wish I could use.

Good luck.

[Maat Mons]

The Merciful weapon won't be helpful if you fight Constructs or Undead, but then, both of those would screw over your Rogue anyway (along with Elementals, Oozes, and Plants).

I remember one time, the DM for a one-shot had us draw party rolls out of a hat. The one I got was "sneaky bastard." It may not surprise you to learn that I made a character that relied on precision damage in combat. I mean, that's kind of the default for that archetype.

It turned out to be an all-plant-enemy one-shot. So, combat-wise, everything I'd built the character around wound up being completely useless.

There also didn't wind up being any situations were sneaking would have been any help. Or any locked doors. Or any traps to disarm. Or any need to make social rolls. So, on the non-combat side of things ... everything I'd built the character around also wound up being completely useless.

[Him]

Perhaps the above two posters should have read my previous posts, they got stuff wrong. Or just repeated what I said.

He decided on his build, so give advice based on that. I wouldn't pick a few as one of the bottlenecks I identified way earlier was actually hitting in combat.

But hey just his 3 weapons and armor put his character wealth around 8th or 9th level.

And there is a better armor option for 100gp more, just gotta put the clues together.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

OK, I've pretty well decided to go with a halfling Ranger 2 / Rogue 1, for the two sneak attacks into melee. So I want some specific advice on that build.

1. His ranged weapon will be +1, and some ability that adds 1d6 to the damage -- fire, frost, sonic, or merciful. I've never taken a merciful weapon before, but it looks like a good idea here. Unlike the other three, it will apply to all opponents while some are immune to fire damage, or cold, or sonic. It still drops the enemy at the same time; the only different is you can choose to keep the enemy alive, or just cut his throat. Am I missing something obvious?

2. I've never taken a sling before, but the halfling's +1 to attack with the sling will mean one more successful hit, and he'll have +3 due to 16 STR on the damage. So isn't the sling more useful than a bow would be?
composite longbow: 1d6 + 1 + 1d6 (magic damage) + 1d6 (if sneak attack) = average of 8 hp, or 11.5 with sneak attack
sling: 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6(magic damage) + 1d6 (if sneak attack) = average of 9.5 hp, or 13 with sneak attack, and he hits one more time out of twenty.

3. His armor will be a Chain shirt of nimbleness +1, for a max +5 Dex bonus and a 0 AC penalty. Any better ideas than this?

Thank you all. The advice has been very helpful, and I have two more build ideas I wish I could use.

0. You'll be relying on lighting conditions to be able to hide most of the time, and halflings have neither darkvision nor low-light vision. You can't hide if you're carrying a light source, so playing a gnome or elf (low-light) or dwarf (darkvision) would definitely be better for that build's playability.

1. You're 3rd level, so opponents are more likely to be immune/resistant to fire and cold over shock. However, creatures with the fire or cold subtype will take 50% more damage from the other one, so it's a bit of a gamble. Shock is the safer bet IMO, don't bother with merciful.

2. Use a longbow.

3. Mithral (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral) armor is core, it costs less than a higher effective enhancement bonus on light armor, and it's even better than Nimbleness. If you can still make it +2, then just make it plain old +2.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Khedrac
…and merciful doesn't work on undead and constructs.


Originally Posted by Maat Mons
The Merciful weapon won't be helpful if you fight Constructs or Undead….

I would’ve gone with merciful myself, but it really is situational, and other options are swingy as well.

OP, do you have any more information about what you might be facing in this one-shot? Without it, Maat’s point about a character being completely useless is a valid concern.

Given this, it might be worth reconsidering the dwarven cleric concept from Biffoniacus_Furiou, since that has the potential to be more useful against whatever opponents your DM throws at you, regardless of their type.

And again, without wands or belts of healing, the other members of the party would probably appreciate a healer. We’re all aware of the Playground’s collective view on in-combat healing, but I’ve never once played in a group where it wasn’t welcome.

[Jay R]

I had forgotten that undead and constructs wouldn’t be affected by a merciful weapon. OK, Its ability is shock.

I know that bows can be made with a strength bonus; I just haven’t been given that option. I can have a normal weapon with +1 and an additional +1 ability. Given that restriction, a sling can use his STR bonus, but a bow can’t. That why I’m using a sling (1d3 + 3) instead of a bow (1d6).

Similarly, mithril* is a great idea, but not currently available. Ordinary armor +1 with a +1 ability. The DM specifically said, “Since this is a one-off, I don't want anything too complex.” I could ask for mithril instead of Nimbleness, and on paper it would be better, but there's nothing I could use it on that would increase DEX bonus to +5 without incurring an AC penalty. I won't ask for an exception that would give me no advantage.

I had been vaguely thinking he could sneak attack with a flank, since my last rogue did. I forgot that a ranged weapon doesn’t flank. I still think that the sneak attack will be worth it. The first attacks are the most important, and with any trees or rocks or other cover, with a Hide of 15 (6 ranks + 5 DEX + 4 size bonus), he should be able to get in several more.

Gnomes and elves are good for some things. But for this build, an elf loses the +4 Hide bonus, +1 attack bonus, and +1 AC from size. A gnome loses the +2 DEX. And they both lose the +1 with slings and +1 with all saving throws. I think I need to accept the vision trade-off.

Him: I double-checked Nimbleness, and if there is a mistake, I don't see it. Could you tell me what I'm missing? A chain shirt has a max DEX bonus of +4, and an AC penalty of -2. Nimbleness adds +1 to the max DEX bonus, and reduces AC penalty by 2. So it should have a Max DEX of +5 and an AC penalty of 0, like I said. Yes, this is from the MIC. Since light fortification is the only +1 ability for armor in the DMG, the DM said we could ask for permission for other things (for the armor alone). He has approved the Nimbleness.

That is the only way for a DEX 20 character to get a total armor bonus of +10 (+ 4 chain shirt, + 1 magic, + 5 DEX max), with no AC penalty.


OP, do you have [I]any more information about what you might be facing in this one-shot? Without it, Maat’s point about a character being completely useless is a valid concern.

The only info I have about it is this paragraph from the DM: "There will be a mix of creatures, and some will not be affected by sneak attack, but I am wary of saying anymore because your characters wouldn't know. That being said, If I look at your character, and it looks way out of balance (as in not very useful), I'll let you know."

He has already looked at my Ranger 2 / Rogue 1 idea, and has no issues with it.


Given this, it might be worth reconsidering the dwarven cleric concept from Biffoniacus_Furiou, since that has the potential to be more useful against whatever opponents your DM throws at you, regardless of their type.

And again, without wands or belts of healing, the other members of the party would probably appreciate a healer. We’re all aware of the Playground’s collective view on in-combat healing, but I’ve never once played in a group where it wasn’t welcome.

Absolutely. I'm trying to get my character established first, so somebody else will play the healer.

*Yes, I prefer Tolkien's spelling to D&D's. I think of my halfling as a hobbit, too.

[Quentinas]

A character can gain AC 20 even with +4 armor +1 magic +4 dex +1 size , because size give bonus even to AC (with nimbleness you would have 21 of AC), for the bow...a composite bow is from player handbook so why you can't play it?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
He has already looked at my Ranger 2 / Rogue 1 idea, and has no issues with it.

…I'm trying to get my character established first, so somebody else will play the healer.

Fair enough. Sounds as if your DM is being reasonable, and doing his best to help with the build process without giving away too much.


Originally Posted by Jay R
The first attacks are the most important, and with any trees or rocks or other cover, with a Hide of 15 (6 ranks + 5 DEX + 4 size bonus), he should be able to get in several more.

Is there any reason why your hobbit wouldn’t be able to climb into a tree and sling away from there? Rangers and rogues both have climb as a class skill, and with your Str bonus climbing shouldn’t be that difficult.

[Jay R]

A character can gain AC 20 even with +4 armor +1 magic +4 dex +1 size , because size give bonus even to AC (with nimbleness you would have 21 of AC),

Yup. That's the plan.


for the bow...a composite bow is from player handbook so why you can't play it?

I can have a composite bow. I can have a shock composite bow +1. But I can't have a shock composite bow + 1 with 300 gp extra value to adjust it to my STR bonus. But all slings use the STR bonus.

A shock composite bow +1, fired by somebody with STR 16, does 1d6 + 1 + 1d6, for an average of 8 points.
A shock composite sling +1, fired by somebody with STR 16, does 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6, for an average of 9.5 points.

The question I'm wondering is whether long ranges will come up often enough to prefer the longer range of the bow to the slightly greater damage of the sling.


Is there any reason why your hobbit wouldn’t be able to climb into a tree and sling away from there? Rangers and rogues both have climb as a class skill, and with your Str bonus climbing shouldn’t be that difficult.

I'm considering it; I've maxed out his Climb skill. But I don't know if he can load the sling in the tree, since loading requires two hands.

[Piggy Knowles]

How are you taking advantage of Rapid Shot with your sling? Loading a sling requires a move action per p121 of the PHB.

[Jay R]

How are you taking advantage of Rapid Shot with your sling? Loading a sling requires a move action per p121 of the PHB.

Good question. I started this thread hoping you people would catch my mistakes. I've sent the DM an email asking whether this or the Rapid Shot rule overrules the other.

Edit: The DM replied, “Rapid Shot works with sling bullets.”

[Him]

Sorry about the missinformation about the str bonus to slings, I was going off a phb ref on enworld, I should have verified I guess.

Sound a like your DM is going by feel at the moment, so I am more a mechanics guy that usually spend half the session reading the rule books while the rest of the party argue's, when my books ain't in storage.

I think you're aiming too high with your build. Have a forte and stick with it. Since you are focusing so much on your ranged aspect, from your melee down to a 2 handed weapon, or sword and board, and instead ask for a strength tested bow and the extra melee weapon is swapped for magical ammunition. Could even ask for a dozen arrows of different elements for different situations, since the ammunition cost is for a total of 50 arrows.

Like I mentioned earlier, melee, support or ranged, pick one, dabble in another. For a decent melee build a magical javelin you can pick back up after combat, with a holster of darts will give you a nice dabble, for melee for a one off the feats might be improved initiative and dodge or something. The first ranged focus is above.

You also need to realise how often you will be in flanking position, and how much that exposes your character to reprisal. It's easy to say I tumble into position. But with 20' movement and you not being in the front row to start combat (I am assuming, were you planning on being in the front row?) You can get to a flanking position straight line at best in 15'. At best. That is provoking an attack of opportunity.

So you don't tumble but sneak. Cut off from the party, you will be receiving a whole bunch of attacks of opportunity just to get to safety.

Ranged, the movement values are even more exagerated, and you only got 20 foot movement.

All of a sudden dodge and mobility are starting to look good, huh?

Anyway. Your armor at effective 4000gp worth, the extra 100gp option I mentioned before was a mithral shirt +1, and a ring of prot+1.

Nimbleness on a chain shirt still leave you with a +1 penalty, and who knows with a mithral shirt you got at least SOME room if someone wants to buff you.

Don't blame you about leaving the cleric to someone else. The only time I remember choosing to play a cleric was in DDO, and that was just to get phat loot and party members for my other characters that i WANT to play.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
But I don't know if he can load the sling in the tree, since loading requires two hands.

I would rule it as a simple balance check, probably with some sort of bonus if you’re able to grip a large branch with your thighs. Since this is up to your DM, might be worth asking him ahead of time.


Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles
How are you taking advantage of Rapid Shot with your sling? Loading a sling requires a move action per p121 of the PHB.

Quick Draw is sometimes mentioned as a potential solution, although I don’t know how far off the sidewalk that goes in terms of shenanigans. This thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?565875-Halfling-Sling-User) from a couple years ago mentions a few options, though without the PHB-only stipulation.

[Jay R]

To Him: I have chosen one forte. This is purely a ranged build.

I'm not sure what "extra melee weapon" you are talking about. He gets one weapon. That will be the shock bow or sling +1. He gets one armor; that will be the chain shirt of nimbleness +1. And then he gets up to 500 gp in potions, scrolls, or possible wondrous item. Plus 200 gp in mundane gear. I will certainly buy a backup melee weapon out of that, but I hope he never has to use it.

He cannot get either mithril or a ring of protection. He cannot get magic arrows. He cannot get a magic javelin without giving up the magic sling or bow.

Dodge and Mobility? Only by sacrificing Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. And if I do that, I lose a large part of the ranged attack that he is dodging and moving to prepare for.

I recognize that if he gets into melee, he's in trouble. That's why he will stay behind the fighter guys, or climb a tree, or hide.


I would rule it as a simple balance check, probably with some sort of bonus if you’re able to grip a large branch with your thighs. Since this is up to your DM, might be worth asking him ahead of time.

I'll probably ask him when it first comes up, since I won't change the build. My halfling will have Climb skill in any case.


Quick Draw is sometimes mentioned as a potential solution, although I don’t know how far off the sidewalk that goes in terms of shenanigans. This thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?565875-Halfling-Sling-User) from a couple years ago mentions a few options, though without the PHB-only stipulation.

The DM replied to me, "Rapid shot works with sling bullets."

If I were trying to justify it as a DM myself, I would say that the move action and the Attack of Opportunity come when reaching into the pouch to pull out the bullet. Rapid Shot teaches you how to pull out two bullets at once, and hold one in the offhand while shooting the first one. But that's my own justification. The real reason it works in this game is that the DM ruled that it does.

[Him]

So you have been listening :D

But take it easy, just trying to help. You never mention you had chosen ranged before, I was going off:


OK, I've pretty well decided to go with a halfling Ranger 2 / Rogue 1, for the two sneak attacks into melee. So I want some specific advice on that build.


The reference to melee threw me and the you started talking about your bow, so yeah honestly for a while there I was thinking you were getting 3 +2 weapons from your DM, silly me. It's really just the one

(As for advice on your build you will only really sneak attack when you win initiative? I doubt the party will move at 10' per round so you can be in sneak all the time, and to sneak in combat with rapid fire will take 3 rounds, better off with extra BAB and just shoot the sucka. Why build a sneak when you'll be sniping from the back row?)


The tanglefoot bag idea will fly though. Whatever else I do, I'm using that one.
.
.
.
If I go ranged, it will probably be the Ranger 2 / Rogue 1. 2 sneak attacks per round at that level will be very useful. Your druid idea requires a non-standard use of a spell that IÂ’m not likely to get.

You're welcome, and whoops possibly my bad since i said ( and honestly believed) that you could flank at ranged. Apparently some pretige classes may offer this but nothing to worry about at third level.

Many posts, no flanking and sneak with ranged. Gotta get up close and personal. Google rogue ranged stuff for more info.

But how would combat go? Even slinging from the tree's you still need to move and hide in alternating rounds. And first you need to climb the tree, is the tree even there?

Move to tree, climb the tree, still need a distraction to hide, hide, the party has cleared the mobs, be a tempted to stay in tree to avoid ridicule, climb down, get laughed at.

And the use of the spell is right there in the spell description. Good gaming is about applying things in inventive ways, we are talking about something that is supposed to be fantasy after all. General concept of well, go nuts, within the rules. Produce Fire is a standard spell for a first level druid, right the in the PHB, the only requirement to get the spell is druid levels 1, or cleric flame domain level 2.

To avoid confusion about your build, I would refer you to how Q posted his suggestion.


Ranger 2 /Rogue 1 can be a good idea, it would be able to do enough damage, even if he is of small size with a good hide is possible to do sneak attacks every round
Another idea could be a straight fighter 3 , as you has an horse you could try to do a fighter based on mounted combat , for the race human can be good
Barbarian 1/Figther 2
Strenght 18
Constitution 18
Dexterity 16
Intelligence 11
Wisdom 14
Charisma 14
Remmoved 2 from the 13 to give 1 to the 17
Feats
1° level Mounted combat
2° level bonus Ride by attack
3° level bonus Spirited charge
3° level Power attack
You can put a skill focus (ride), or a weapon focus (lance) as the human feat bonus , the first would be better to be able to tank thanks to the ride skill use, the second would be better for the combat (especially when you use power attack)
Skills: 6 ranks ride , 6 ranks in handle animals, 6 ranks in intimidate, 4 ranks in Listen , 4 ranks in Survival
The idea is to charge with your horse doing good damage, and using ride to avoid that the mount take damage, the first level is barbarian only because is better for hitpoints and skills

Supply detail, and then people trying to help can go from there, little late now on this thread, which I can choose not to read, same for forum, but I used to make REALLY good builds and have little else to do with my time atm.

Q, your build reminds me of a gnome paladin I once thought of. Small sized so he could take his mount into dungeons. Napoleon-like ego, and his steeds name was Thunder. "Hyahh, Thunder! Hyahh!" See OP AND fun! (Bonus point if you know the name of the movie that inspired said paladin)

Anyway, so your DM is allowing you what I use the custom feat Rapid Reload: Sling for for free, happy days, then sling is probably the go but remember you are a halfling and gotta pay for that dex bonus so there aint +3 str on your build, just +2.

Also did you check with your DM about the mithral shirt and ring of prot ? It IS the superior option, which is is what you kept asking for. Volunteer to s acrifice a 100gp out of the 500 or 200 (or maybe 50 from both). It's up to him say say yea or nay at his leisure. You c an understand the the confusion, but the chain shirt was the second confirmed item you were taking, and although you said DMG only, Nimbleness is from MiC.. any other option for equipment outside PHB and DMG we should know about, just to help you as best we can.

Trivia: the small paladin was inspired by the movie Labyrinth. David Bowie in make-up and too tight pants, but geez I had am the hots for Jennifer Connely. Still sorta do.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
The real reason it works in this game is that the DM ruled that it does.

Seems like a GM who’s trying to help you where he can.

And it sounds like your build is pretty much nailed down: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. How are you arranging your stats?

[Him]

I made the rapid reload (sling) feat because I don't think it should happen for free, but hey.

And nimbleness, the only reference I have found is
{scrubbed}
So unless you actually have the MiC that says different, I'm going with what it says. Though I would just say no to nimbleness armor in my game, your GM stated clearly DMG only.

Your shopping list, some are role playing and I am hoping you give your character at least 1 rank in profession cooking as he is used to living off the land and such.

Mundane: 192gp,4sp,8cp total.
Sling bullets x50
Spear
Dagger
2x gauntlets
Net
Explorers outfit
Whetstone
Holy water
Acid
Tanglefoot bag
Manacles
Rope ,silk
5x pitons (use dagger hilt to hammer in)
Signet ring
Thunderstone(re-usable in my campaigns)
2 sq yards of canvas ( poor man's tent)
Tindertwig
Oil x3
Bullseye lantern (needed for thief stuff)
Backpack
Chalk
Candles x3
Flint and steel
Bedroll
Grappling hook
3x trail rations
3x feed (for your horse)
Bottle of fine wine
Salt and pepper
Cheese
Bread
Sack
Mirror (Smal, steel)
Soap
Caltrops x2
Tobacco
Sealing wax
5x parchment
Inkpen
Ink
3x Belt pouch
Rope (hemp)
Iron pot.

Magical stuff:
5x cure light option
1x jump option
1x magic stone oil
1x remove fear option
1x universal solvent
1x shield of faith.

Watch your encumbrance especially with the sling bullets, they weigh 5 pounds per 10.

The net you should look up doubles as a reusable tangle foot sorta.

As for you sneak attacks :
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?515132-Hide-Skill-and-Cover-Concealment-Total-Cover-Total-Concealment
But the general gist is, unless you are in full cover, you still need the enemy to be distracted (As per the action, distract) to fully hide.

[Him]

Oops, forgot a belt knife

[Jay R]

The reference to melee threw me ...

I can see where the confusion came from. I meant with the ranged attack. Precise shot lets him shoot into melee.


...and the you started talking about your bow, so yeah honestly for a while there I was thinking you were getting 3 +2 weapons from your DM, silly me. It's really just the one

No problem. That's how the internet works at its finest. You can go back over and over again until you actually communicate.


(As for advice on your build you will only really sneak attack when you win initiative? I doubt the party will move at 10' per round so you can be in sneak all the time, and to sneak in combat with rapid fire will take 3 rounds, better off with extra BAB and just shoot the sucka. Why build a sneak when you'll be sniping from the back row?)

He sneak attacks every time the party starts the attack, in the surprise round, and about half the time again in the first round. Sneak attacks are primarily first round only, and the goal is to quickly drop a single threat (ideally, a caster). I'm aware that my third level R/R will "only" be doing 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6 twice per round a lot of the time.



And the use of the spell is right there in the spell description. Good gaming is about applying things in inventive ways, we are talking about something that is supposed to be fantasy after all. General concept of well, go nuts, within the rules. Produce Fire is a standard spell for a first level druid, right the in the PHB, the only requirement to get the spell is druid levels 1, or cleric flame domain level 2.

I would have sworn you said, "This one's magic weapon needs DM approval, but the magic weapon is my own personal ring design of continuous Produce Fire at caster level 4." If a Ranger 2 / Druid 1 casts that Produce Fire, it's 1d6+1, thrown only once. [Each attack reduces duration by 1 minute, and the duration is 1 minute per level. That's a single attack that does less damage than my build can do twice each turn.


Supply detail, and then people trying to help can go from there, little late now on this thread, which I can choose not to read, same for forum, but I used to make REALLY good builds and have little else to do with my time atm.

See below.


Anyway, so your DM is allowing you what I use the custom feat Rapid Reload: Sling for for free, happy days, then sling is probably the go but remember you are a halfling and gotta pay for that dex bonus so there aint +3 str on your build, just +2.

See below. DEX 20, STR 16. And I think that the DM is simply applying the actual words of Rapid Shot to a sling: "You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon." It's a judgment call.


Also did you check with your DM about the mithral shirt and ring of prot ? It IS the superior option, which is is what you kept asking for.

No, I didn't. It is indeed superior, but it doesn't seem to me to be more-or-less equivalent to the rules he gave. It's two items, not one.

The only exception I've asked for was the Nimbleness armor, and I asked for that because there was only one +1 ability for armor.

Oh, and thanks for the proposed shopping list. I haven't started working on that, and won't until tomorrow. [I'm teaching statistics this evening.]

Also, I don't think a Ranger needs 1 point in Profession (cooking). Survival explicitly says, "You can keep yourself and others safe and fed in the wild." The profession would be how to cook in a kitchen, about which he knows nothing.


Seems like a GM who’s trying to help you where he can.

He's good at making a game run smoothly, and generally makes good judgment calls.


And it sounds like your build is pretty much nailed down: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. How are you arranging your stats?

Holman Burrows, Halfling Ranger 2 / Rogue 1
Strength 17 --> 15 (halfling) --> 16 (tradeup)
Dexterity 18 --> 20 (halfling)
Constitution 16
Wisdom 14
Intelligence 15 --> 16 (trade-up)
Charisma 13 --> 11 (trade down) --> 9 (trade down)

Feats: Point blank range, precise shot.
Class abilities (Ranger): Favored enemy (humans), track, wild empathy, combat style: rapid shot
Class abilities (Rogue): sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding

Shock sling +1

Chain shirt of Nimbleness +1 (Max Dex bonus +5, AC penalty 0)

Skills (third draft -- not yet finalized): Climb 6, Handle Animal 1, Hide 6, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 1, Knowledge (nature) 6, Listen 6, Move Silently 6, Ride 5, Search 5, Spot 1, Survival 6, Use Rope 6.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
Holman Burrows, Halfling Ranger 2 / Rogue 1

Very nice, thanks for posting the build.

Any chance of a session summary once you've played it through? I'd like to see how all the design work fares in practice.

[Him]

{Scrubbed}

The reference said basically max dex +2, armor check penalty decreases by 1. Can someone with Magic Item Compendium please confirm (by actually quoting the actual book)? You seem to have been getting this backwards, from I can see.



He sneak attacks every time the party starts the attack, in the surprise round, and about half the time again in the first round. Sneak attacks are primarily first round only, and the goal is to quickly drop a single threat (ideally, a caster). I'm aware that my third level R/R will "only" be doing 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6 twice per round a lot of the time.




I would have sworn you said, "This one's magic weapon needs DM approval, but the magic weapon is my own personal ring design of continuous Produce Fire at caster level 4." If a Ranger 2 / Druid 1 casts that Produce Fire, it's 1d6+1, thrown only once. [Each attack reduces duration by 1 minute, and the duration is 1 minute per level. That's a single attack that does less damage than my build can do twice each turn.

.

See below. DEX 20, STR 16. And I think that the DM is simply applying the actual words of Rapid Shot to a sling: "You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon." It's a judgment call.

.

Also, I don't think a Ranger needs 1 point in Profession (cooking). Survival explicitly says, "You can keep yourself and others safe and fed in the wild." The profession would be how to cook in a kitchen, about which he knows nothing.

.




So more ranged through cover than into melee, where you don't find casters, unless the cleric is being a shield wall. Being a bit reliant on the DM giving you an easy time. But he is giving you a little over a 5th level characters wealth so enjoy the special times.

.

In the few campaigns I ran, I actually gave the wilderness patrols scouts, which that basically nerfed the surprise round. Orcs and goblins sorta live by raiding, so the do train in SOME kinda military formation, and the are actively out looking for a fight. Surprise rounds are supposed to be rare as
1. Read above about sneaking, even medium size creatures, this is just 15' a round.
2. In a castle assault I ran once I used semi-intelligent mobs and the listening rule, I helped the players after the initial combat by saying "just hole up in the room for a second to make sure no-one heard you" to avoid party wipe, as the sound of vthe fight brought the half that floors mobs down on them. (Only half as I was taking it easy). They actually had an easier time of it the as they just had to guard 1 door and wait for the the mobs to appear (It's a TRAP).

I've learnt that if you build a character to be dependant on a particular situation, he isn't, good in other, and is therefore nerfed. Not the kinda build that has good survivability

.


I suggested 2 builds, yes, then had an argument about how a druid WOULD work, but anyway. Rapid fire from ranger and the ranged touch attack removes the need for precise shot. And I knew there was a reason I used the ring, thanks for the reminder. The druid didnt have precise shot, would have to switch to human i guess if going short bow, the rest could stay the same. Ac isntin too high demand for an archer. Yes, statically, even with the ring, probably a point or 2 less dpr that your build, but you are the numbers man, what happens against a decently armored (including natural armor)boss(the flip side being the much rarer high dex mobs) since the custom ring uses ranged touch versus normal ranged.

.

I do know what Rapid Fire does. What's his excuse for crossbows, sorta where I got the idea of my custom feat from. The reload action his right there in the item description, PHB as in the title of the thread.

.

Oh, the eternal argument to actually put in a skill that is role playing, but you just can't find any actual use for. You said you play you halfling-like-hobbits or the such? Aren't hobbits "foodies"? Did you see the spread Bilbo put out for the dwarves (actually, I think the dwarves cooked, but you don't have a pantry like that unless you got some skill! In fact if I member the books correctly, Bilbo had MULTIPLE pantries)? ( and I've worked as kitchen hand, cook skill to have)
I grew up in Australia, so I'm familiar with what a kouri aboriginal calls "Bush tucka" .
Now a whitchetty grub (sorta l looks like a large maggot) will keep you fed, and is highly nutritious. THAT I consider wilderness lore, or survival.
But I got the character an iron pot and salt and pepper (could also afford a bit of ginger I suppose, cinnamon as well, but I couldn't find coffee in the PHB) so he can provide, in style, with at least a simple spit roast and stew. May also need a few extra sling bullets to catch rabbits and the such (with forest greens and tubers, depends on the envirement), but I learnt having a few extra gold in the pocket is needed for sundry expenses. The bottle of wine is to celebrate the adventure with, possibly (or not) shared amongst the party. (My barbarians have been known to travel with a barrel of ale, but digressing again)

But to say a hobbit -like-halfling doesn't know his way around a kitchen, I dare say you would be exiled from Bag-End! The profession cooking (wis, TRAINED ONLY) is a MUST!

If you need a real life example , the TV show Masterchef is all about finding the best home cooks not necessarily professionally trained, though i belive can they acceptedvthem as well, or alteast MCAus at the momentsvis doing a Best of season and most went pro). I can cook but i can't cook like THAT. What skill would you say they are using?(PHB only) ( and actually, I could list few few skills)


Also, not sure you need Use Rope, I bought you some menacles (DC 30), so 1 less than your maxed out skill (if using the oh so long take 20)atm and everything else listed in the PHB can be covered untrained with your dex bonus(but I i do miss my sailing days, a knot that involves a rabbit or something, meh) with a simple take 10. Perhaps Disable Device? Would go nicely with your int bonus.

Gotta learn how to do the broken up quotation stuff, so much neater, just cut and paste, right? nvm, I think I've got it.

Statistics, hey? Took a class a that at Maquarie University, useful in logistics and importance is highlighted in sun-tzu's art of war. Good stuff!

And I'm spent.

[Him]

Oh, and about your equipment, you said you wanted tanglefoot, so I was able to included one for you, but if you are are after more of a caster killer build, you may want to swap out the tangle foot for 2x alchemists fire. DOT ( Damage over time, since I've been pulled up for my tla's before) means the caster needs a concentration check, still get sneak attack if applicable and 10 GP cheaper.

Oh and you purchased your holy water from a good temple at cost. Which I needed to bounce round on. The math provided up above was because I went "sweet! Half price!" But not so much. So correct on your character sheet as you desire as you need to spend an extra 12.5 GP to afford.

[Jay R]

Very nice, thanks for posting the build.

Any chance of a session summary once you've played it through? I'd like to see how all the design work fares in practice.

I hope so. I usually write up a summary of a gaming session.


Can someone with Magic Item Compendium please confirm (by actually quoting the actual book)? You seem to have been getting this backwards, from I can see.

MiC, page 13: "A suit of armor that has this property has a maximum Dexterity bonus 1 higher than normal, and its armor check penalty is reduced by 2."


So more ranged through cover than into melee, where you don't find casters, unless the cleric is being a shield wall. Being a bit reliant on the DM giving you an easy time. But he is giving you a little over a 5th level characters wealth so enjoy the special times.

Actually, I intend to make my sneak attacks happen. I've played with sneak attack since my first hobbit thief in 1975. And when he can't make it happen, he "merely" does 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6 twice each round, with an attack of BAB +2 + 5 (DEX) +1 (size) + 1 (hobbit). This is not horrible for a 3rd level.


In the few campaigns I ran, I actually gave the wilderness patrols scouts, which that basically nerfed the surprise round.

This DM hasn't usually done that in the past.


1. Read above about sneaking, even medium size creatures, this is just 15' a round.

The most important sneaking should happen before the fight, not during. A good sneak starts as many of the fights as he can. You are correct that if he waits for the encounter, he has failed as a sneak. Just like when facing undead, sometimes the sneak attack is just not available. But it's my job to find the opportunities. And if I can't do it, then I can't.


2. In a castle assault I ran once I used semi-intelligent mobs and the listening rule, ...

Yup. It's no accident that I've maxed out Listening.


I've learnt that if you build a character to be dependant on a particular situation, he isn't, good in other, and is therefore nerfed. Not the kinda build that has good survivability

It's true that he will not have his best attack all the time. I accept that. But my character can't be nerfed simply because his best option is gone. A good player can have an effect in any reasonable situation.


I do know what Rapid Fire does. What's his excuse for crossbows, sorta where I got the idea of my custom feat from. The reload action his right there in the item description, PHB as in the title of the thread.

No idea. I have no good reason to ask him a hypothetical question that won't affect the game.


Oh, the eternal argument to actually put in a skill that is role playing, but you just can't find any actual use for. You said you play you halfling-like-hobbits or the such? Aren't hobbits "foodies"? Did you see the spread Bilbo put out for the dwarves (actually, I think the dwarves cooked, but you don't have a pantry like that unless you got some skill! In fact if I member the books correctly, Bilbo had MULTIPLE pantries)? ( and I've worked as kitchen hand, cook skill to have)

Bilbo wasn't an adventurer, or an outdoorsman. He was an over-comfortable, rich, stay-at-home Shire-hobbit. "We are a plain quiet folk, and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can't think what anybody sees in them." Yes, he knew how to cook in a kitchen. But being gentry, he would not know how to run a restaurant. He might have Craft (cooking), but not Profession.

Sam also had cooking skill, but Frodo, Pippin, and Merry never displayed any interest. [They certainly had an interest in eating.]

And I always put some focus into role-playing. I will never play a Ranger without Use Rope as a skill. My last Ranger had a masterwork axe (not a weapon, but a tool for chopping wood), because I've known three people who lived in the woods, and they were all proud of the quality of their axe.

I've actually had the job title of Ranger for two summers (at Philmont Scout Ranch). My wilderness cooking is pretty good, but I am not really comfortable in a kitchen.


But to say a hobbit -like-halfling doesn't know his way around a kitchen, I dare say you would be exiled from Bag-End! The profession cooking (wis, TRAINED ONLY) is a MUST!

Yes, my Ranger / Rogue would not be invited into Bag End; he isn't a rich, comfortable land-owner-class gentlehobbit like Pippin (son of the Thain) and Merry (son of the Master of Brandy Hall). [Sam was often there because he was a servant.]


Also, not sure you need Use Rope, ...

Agreed. But I, and every Ranger I have ever known, know this skill.


I bought you some menacles (DC 30), ...

... which no Ranger I ever knew carried. It's just as important to not take something that doesn't fit the build as it is to take something that does. Besides, ropes are good for climbing and other outdoor activities.


Oh, and about your equipment, you said you wanted tanglefoot, so I was able to included one for you, but if you are are after more of a caster killer build, you may want to swap out the tangle foot for 2x alchemists fire. DOT ( Damage over time, since I've been pulled up for my tla's before) means the caster needs a concentration check, still get sneak attack if applicable and 10 GP cheaper.

If somebody fails their check against the tanglefoot bag, then they are immobilized, and sneak attack works again.


Oh and you purchased your holy water from a good temple at cost. Which I needed to bounce round on. The math provided up above was because I went "sweet! Half price!" But not so much. So correct on your character sheet as you desire as you need to spend an extra 12.5 GP to afford.

Good plan. But I will assume that somebody else carries holy water. It doesn't add to this build.

Thank you for your passion for the game. It is doing me good to make me defend all my ideas. I don't think you know how much my build has been modified in the course of this discussion.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Jay R
Yes, my Ranger / Rogue would not be invited into Bag End….

But I bet he’d be welcome at the Prancing Pony. :smalltongue:

[Him]

MiC, page 13: "A suit of armor that has this property has a maximum Dexterity bonus 1 higher than normal, and its armor check penalty is reduced by 2."

Yah, after posting, copyright prevents from mentioning further, but you are correct on that point, sorry, I was using bad reference material, I blame lack of correct tools. But your are actually getting over a 6th level character wealth, so happy days(not just the 5th level I was mentioning before)


Actually, I intend to make my sneak attacks happen. I've played with sneak attack since my first hobbit thief in 1975. And when he can't make it happen, he "merely" does 1d3 + 1 + 3 + 1d6 twice each round, with an attack of BAB +2 + 5 (DEX) +1 (size) + 1 (hobbit). This is not horrible for a 3rd level.

sure, at least you listened, and not hobbit bonus, halfling.


This DM hasn't usually done that in the past.


The most important sneaking should happen before the fight, not during. A good sneak starts as many of the fights as he can. You are correct that if he waits for the encounter, he has failed as a sneak. Just like when facing undead, sometimes the sneak attack is just not available. But it's my job to find the opportunities. And if I can't do it, then I can't.



Yup. It's no accident that I've maxed out Listening.

(I started to after , as a player, I did the following.)

Again, different play styles, when I was being a player, I guess I sorta started trying to zerg within safe boundaries in the game. With the buffs spell duration being what the are, I rules lawyered the hell out of being a scout. The was a long line of reasoning but basically, for level you SHOULDN'T, though I have been proved wrong about this, be having to deal with a highly disciplined military out fit. So, sentries are probably talking and patrols probably moving without sneaking, but even then the following will still apply.

2 parties approaching each other, (the scout in light armor walking normally). It's a listen/ spot off, and in skills at the same levels the party 99.9% wins when taking 10. Why when taking 10 you ask? I knew you would, when he said he didn't want to just take 10 and roll each time, I said, no worries, my scout says to the party "when im scouting, just watch for my hand signals". The DM said, "you start moving down the road . . . . And go off the beaten track" at which point I interrupted and said " since we are in less well patrolled areas my scout moves forward ahead of the party, every now and then, he gives a hand signal to the party and then blends into the surroundings. Sometimes it's nothing, sometimes there's a small animal, but he's just doing his job, oh, and out of character, this is the standard for how this character scouts". And the DM said "right, and continuing onward....." then i would meta-game a bit whenever the DM started rolling dice and telling me to roll dice, i would say "my character sense something, hand signal and hide for a round or two" DM eye rolled after a while and we argued, but eventually he agreed that taking 10 was fine, so then I provided math(you should like that Mr Statistician) on my effective listen and spot ranges and that the mobs would use this sorta math too for thier based on thier own values i think i even included the values, i forget.

The beginnings of agro range using a now computer gaming term.

These got rediculous when using skill buff items, but you said there aren't any in this one off, so a non issue.

So, you move normal relying on superior spot/listen, notice something, sneak and investigate/take appropriate action. Easy.

So sneak before combat? Yes, but not moving in sneak the whole time to make the most of effective buffs. Yes I had to push the DM a bit about providing exact times so I could keep track. But the whole party had their own buffs going, so I thought I was providing a service as I kept track of their buffs too, so we would pwn the combat.

Advice from a former scout, but since you've been playing since 1975, you should know better than be, I'm just a baby born in 1979.


It's true that he will not have his best attack all the time. I accept that. But my character can't be nerfed simply because his best option is gone. A good player can have an effect in any reasonable situation.

So can an evil one. J/k. I prefer good characters.


No idea. I have no good reason to ask him a hypothetical question that won't affect the game.

And why would you? the decision is already in your favor, apparently. Wouldn't fly to in my game, need the feat for that.




Bilbo wasn't an adventurer, or an outdoorsman. He was an over-comfortable, rich, stay-at-home Shire-hobbit. "We are a plain quiet folk, and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner! I can't think what anybody sees in them." Yes, he knew how to cook in a kitchen. But being gentry, he would not know how to run a restaurant. He might have Craft (cooking), but not Profession.

Sam also had cooking skill, but Frodo, Pippin, and Merry never displayed any interest. [They certainly had an interest in eating.]

You make a my argument for me. Your scout is a most unhobbit-like halfling (Which makes me wonder why you made the reference, but meh) who trained himself to be away, and as even the most rudimentary bivwack requires some skills, a real foodie would learn a liitle for " sleeping rough" in Style! And you breezed over my Master chef question. They, as you mention, much like myself, have an interest in eating, and my mother had rudimentary cooking skills as she expended her focus in other fields, so i picked up some skill in cooking.


And I always put some focus into role-playing. I will never play a Ranger without Use Rope as a skill. My last Ranger had a masterwork axe (not a weapon, but a tool for chopping wood), because I've known three people who lived in the woods, and they were all proud of the quality of their axe.

Well, I keep my hatchet in the shed, the big axe was for splitting firewood, but digressing again. I have played ranger with and without use rope, you were mentioning one off and this skill can be used untrained .


I've actually had the job title of Ranger for two summers (at Philmont Scout Ranch). My wilderness cooking is pretty good, but I am not really comfortable in a kitchen.

My title is in Chinese but means "my brother who learnt before me".So as a fellow title holder, respect.

But if you please, Scout, how was your first untrained cooking experience, did someone teach you this SKILL. <.<

But I formally accept jay R's scout can't cook that well, because Jay R don't wanna. Is that what sue Ellen is for? Or did she hire a maid.

A hireling and a cart is a good expense for a party, cheap and explains how you get 20 sets of armor back to town when milking every penny. And I the untrained (I.e. non combatant) hireling can the cook for you.


Yes, my Ranger / Rogue would not be invited into Bag End; he isn't a rich, comfortable land-owner-class gentlehobbit like Pippin (son of the Thain) and Merry (son of the Master of Brandy Hall). [Sam was often there because he was a servant.]

Well, okay the, but I believe Pippin became the Thain, and Sam the gardener also was a Ringbearer and hero in his own right. To be honest, watching the movie, Frodo came across as kinda whiney, and was plain just carried by Sam. But then, the movie passed on the better option too!


Agreed. But I, and every Ranger I have ever known, know this skill.
Wasn't this already dealt with above, guess it's my own fault due to shonky postings, been a while.

Well, I have (surprise suprise) played different characters from you, and will continue to do so. For my thoughts are earlier in the post in this matter.

After all the basis of this thread is you looking for advice and I was honestly trying to get you to free up some skill points for COOKING!

(Which I humbly accept Jay_R refuses to do)


... which no Ranger I ever knew carried. It's just as important to not take something that doesn't fit the build as it is to take something that does. Besides, ropes are good for climbing and other outdoor activities.

Never played an urban ranger? I did mention man-catcher much earlier, suitable for a ranger/rogue build. Sure, whatever, like i said, my arguments are already posted for why you don't need these skill ranks for a one off. And I have played ranger with both use rope AND manacles. Even has beast menaces made, different story again.


If somebody fails their check against the tanglefoot bag, then they are immobilized, and sneak attack works again.

No, the there are forum posts that discuss, I refer you to google.

You be trippin

Short story, non magical, alchemical bag with 4 pounds, (less that 2 kgs) worth of goo, Insta hardens on contact with air, but damm near any of my 6th level characters characters can take 10 and break. -4 to dex while entangled, but definitely not flat footed. would cover a single foot. Take a look at 2 litres of milk, same sorta quantity, could at best hit both feet on a 20, or a called shot.


Good plan. But I will assume that somebody else carries holy water. It doesn't add to this build.
You're character, build it how you want. I obviously would get it. As you probably know that saying about assuming as well


Thank you for your passion for the game. It is doing me good to make me defend all my ideas. I don't think you know how much my build has been modified in the course of this discussion.

If I had true passion for the game, I might have actually tried playing in the last 15 years. Just here encouraging you kids, grandpa.

My "passion" developed from a need for escapism. Between various kinds of abuse, DnD provided a platform that was fair. You just needed to know the rules and have a love of fantasy, a little luck with the dice helps too.

I am, eternally grateful to the creators of the Dungeons And Dragons. I think i even spoke to Monte once via email. That however, is a different story.

And strangely enough, I won't read your aforementioned post on your session, just not my bag.


But I bet he’d be welcome at the Prancing Pony. :smalltongue:

Of course, he can't cook and has gold! Great customer!

Ready Player One.

I will post my own Game build soon, just for reference.