Cleric starting armor with heavy armor feat

[D.U.P.A.]

If a player takes a cleric with a subclass without heavy armor proficiency with variant human race, taking heavy armored feat that gives you proficiency with heavy armor, is eligible to already start with heavy armor? Just by the rules.

[HappyDaze]

It only asks if you are proficient. It doesn't care how you gained that proficiency. So, yes, a Light (for example) cleric variant human that elects to start with heavily armored can select chain mail as starting armor.

[Expired]

It only asks if you are proficient. It doesn't care how you gained that proficiency. So, yes, a Light (for example) cleric variant human that elects to start with heavily armored can select chain mail as starting armor.
HappyDaze is correct. In addition, medium armor is also good for Clerics because it allows you to dump Str and have more scores to spread out to Dex (limit of 14), and Con (start with 16 if VHuman). You can also take Magic Initiate: Druid for Absorb Elements, Thorn Whip, and Shillelagh and use Wis for to-hit and damage calculations making you SAD.

[HappyDaze]

HappyDaze is correct. In addition, medium armor is also good for Clerics because it allows you to dump Str and have more scores to spread out to Dex (limit of 14), and Con (start with 16 if VHuman). You can also take Magic Initiate: Druid for Absorb Elements, Thorn Whip, and Shillelagh and use Wis for to-hit and damage calculations making you SAD.

You could do that, but for many people I've met, there is great appeal in playing the classic heavily armored Str-based cleric even with a domain that doesn't automatically grant heavy armor proficiency.

[Tanarii]

You could do that, but for many people I've met, there is great appeal in playing the classic heavily armored Str-based cleric even with a domain that doesn't automatically grant heavy armor proficiency.
Indeed. But if you try to do Str/Dex 14 and Wis 16 you're probably looking at a Con of 12. So it's understandable that folks might prefer either Str/Con 14 with Heavy and not worry about Dex, or Dex/Con with Medium and not worry about Str. Although if you're playing with Variant Encumberance it's still worth considering higher than an 8 in Str in the latter case. (I'm assuming variant human for stats here, with +1 to your 15 and +1 to your 13.)

[HappyDaze]

Indeed. But if you try to do Str/Dex 14 and Wis 16 you're probably looking at a Con of 12. So it's understandable that folks might prefer either Str/Con 14 with Heavy and not worry about Dex, or Dex/Con with Medium and not worry about Str.
I never suggested that a classic heavily armored Str-based cleric would have a high Dex.

[Tanarii]

I never suggested that a classic heavily armored Str-based cleric would have a high Dex.
Yup. I misread your post and thought you were suggesting a Str-based Medium armor cleric. My bad.

[D.U.P.A.]

Ah ok, because I thought there is some order in character creation and in case item selection would come before the selection of the feat, you would not be eligible to.

[TigerT20]

You could also use the Starting Wealth by Class to just straight up buy it.

[Zetakya]

Most GMs will quite reasonably assume that a character who has a particular armour proficiency at level 1 can start with a basic suit of armour appropriate for that proficiency.

Otherwise you get into a situation of "ah-ha! You have spent character creation resources to get Heavy Armour Proficiency, but you will have to wait until level 3 in order to afford any, which is frankly just a D-move and would have me finding a new table to play at.

[Tanarii]

Most GMs will quite reasonably assume that a character who has a particular armour proficiency at level 1 can start with a basic suit of armour appropriate for that proficiency.

Otherwise you get into a situation of "ah-ha! You have spent character creation resources to get Heavy Armour Proficiency, but you will have to wait until level 3 in order to afford any, which is frankly just a D-move and would have me finding a new table to play at.It's not a matter of being a d-move, it's a matter of Clerics getting a special option based on if they are proficient.

any other character that upgrades their proficiency via variant human feat would have to roll for gold. And that might not be an option, e.g. adventurers league. Then there are hexblades.

[HappyDaze]

It's not a matter of being a d-move, it's a matter of Clerics getting a special option based on if they are proficient.

any other character that upgrades their proficiency via variant human feat would have to roll for gold. And that might not be an option, e.g. adventurers league. Then there are hexblades.

Quite right. It's the same quirk that allows a dwarf life cleric to select a warhammer to start even though the proficiency comes from race rather than a domain feature.

[Tanarii]

Quite right. It's the same quirk that allows a dwarf life cleric to select a warhammer to start even though the proficiency comes from race rather than a domain feature.
Conversely elf clerics need to roll for gold or wait to get their sword or bow,

[HappyDaze]

Conversely elf clerics need to roll for gold or wait to get their sword or bow,

I'll shed no tears for an elf.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

You could do that, but for many people I've met, there is great appeal in playing the classic heavily armored Str-based cleric even with a domain that doesn't automatically grant heavy armor proficiency.

Heavy Armor @1
Charger @4
+2 Wis @8

Light Clerics don't require a large Wisdom modifier so you can focus on Str/Con while keeping Wisdom around 14 until level 8.

Run around and smack things and then light up their world when they surround you.

Alternately...

Dumping Dex down to 10 is doable with Cleric as you're a reactionary type class. A fixer so to speak. Just put Str at 13, grab heavy armor, and you can focus on Con, Wis, and Cha. Grab Actor at 4 and boost Wis to 18 at 8.

[D.U.P.A.]

Most GMs will quite reasonably assume that a character who has a particular armour proficiency at level 1 can start with a basic suit of armour appropriate for that proficiency.

Otherwise you get into a situation of "ah-ha! You have spent character creation resources to get Heavy Armour Proficiency, but you will have to wait until level 3 in order to afford any, which is frankly just a D-move and would have me finding a new table to play at.

Just wondering about official rules, like if you are going to adventure league (not that I am going to, just brainstorming).

Like you do not get Healer's kit when choosing Healer feat.

[Anymage]

This is a tiny and unimportant enough corner of the rules that I don't think anyone bothered giving a decisive ruling. On top of that, 4e is not quite as bound in legalese as 3.5 was. (More bound than it would like to claim, but still nowhere near as bad.)

Between the fact that you have rolling for gold as an alternative and the fact that you basically had to spend your race on heavy armor proficiency, I don't know that anybody who isn't pointedly jerkish and/or derives great pleasure from feeling more clever than other people through obtuse interpretations of things (which, come to think of it, is a subset of the first group) would turn you down.

[LudicSavant]

AFB from the moment but if I recall correctly, it doesn't care how you got the proficiency, only that you have it.

That said, I generally wouldn't recommend spending a feat to get heavy armor as a Cleric.

[Pex]

Most GMs will quite reasonably assume that a character who has a particular armour proficiency at level 1 can start with a basic suit of armour appropriate for that proficiency.

Otherwise you get into a situation of "ah-ha! You have spent character creation resources to get Heavy Armour Proficiency, but you will have to wait until level 3 in order to afford any, which is frankly just a D-move and would have me finding a new table to play at.

At least cleric is told he can have heavy armor if proficient. The hexblade is stuck with light armor. They neglected to give hexblades medium armor and shield as starting equipment. A DM can still give it to him, but I've known DMs (not tyrants [TM]) who have been sticklers about starting equipment and gold.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

AFB from the moment but if I recall correctly, it doesn't care how you got the proficiency, only that you have it.

That said, I generally wouldn't recommend spending a feat to get heavy armor as a Cleric.

I definitely would if you want to focus on Con, Wis, and Int or Cha.

Trickery Cleric in heavy armor who is going to primarily be a caster is going to hardly ever get hit when they don't want to be hit.

Light Cleric can focus on Con and Wis to be a walking fortress of burning death.

It just all depends on what you want out of your character.

[Mikal]

And this is why all my games have people using rolls for gold to get starting equipment. No silly questions like “can my heavy armor user have a suit of heavy armor to start.”

[SpawnOfMorbo]

And this is why all my games have people using rolls for gold to get starting equipment. No silly questions like “can my heavy armor user have a suit of heavy armor to start.”

Seems like a sillier question would come up "hey, other player that rolled well on starting gold, can I borrow some so I can afford the bare minimum of what my character needs", you know?

Screwing over players before the first session is the sillier thing to do. Let their actions screw themselves, not that you aren't allowing them to have their basic items that the game assumes they will have.

[Mikal]

Seems like a sillier question would come up "hey, other player that rolled well on starting gold, can I borrow some so I can afford the bare minimum of what my character needs", you know?

Screwing over players before the first session is the sillier thing to do. Let their actions screw themselves, not that you aren't allowing them to have their basic items that the game assumes they will have.

Why is it silly? Why should all adventures be able to start equally? Some people will have more cash than others. Heck, you can even use it as a minor plot hook as long as you’re not a jerk about it.

“Oh yes. You’re quite the promising wizard, but alas you come from such a poor family that you can’t afford to get that arcane focus that would REALLY help, or you need some extra cash for that extra spellbook you want. Well, the thieves guild would love to help. You just have to do them a favor at some future point in time.”

Lazy DMs handwave things and consider someone not having a lot of starting cash as “screwing a player.”

Good DMs help players turn shortcomings into plot hooks and adventure ideas.

Edit: plus, if you’re really that worried about being “screwed” as a player due to bad rolls... you can get gold from your background, you know.

Edit 2: no, i don’t expect wizards to pay for spellbooks with their starting cash. It’s just an example of fluff that could be used for the impoverished PC. If it bothers you, substitute “fighter” for wizard and “longbow” for spellbook.

[LudicSavant]

I definitely would if you want to focus on Con, Wis, and Int or Cha.

Trickery Cleric in heavy armor who is going to primarily be a caster is going to hardly ever get hit when they don't want to be hit.

Light Cleric can focus on Con and Wis to be a walking fortress of burning death.

It just all depends on what you want out of your character.

You can focus on those stats without Heavy Armor anyways.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

Why is it silly? Why should all adventures be able to start equally? Some people will have more cash than others. Heck, you can even use it as a minor plot hook as long as you’re not a jerk about it.

“Oh yes. You’re quite the promising wizard, but alas you come from such a poor family that you can’t afford to get that arcane focus that would REALLY help, or you need some extra cash for that extra spellbook you want. Well, the thieves guild would love to help. You just have to do them a favor at some future point in time.”

Lazy DMs handwave things and consider someone not having a lot of starting cash is “screwing a player.”

Good DMs help players turn shortcomings into plot hooks and adventure ideas.

Edit: plus, if you’re really that worried about being “screwed” as a player due to bad rolls... you can get gold from your background, you know.

Because this is a game about having fun first and foremost and the game is created so that you get stuff based on your background and class, the game assumes you have that stuff.

Hand waving the rules, because you want to screw over players, is now good DMing? Seems like the more fair way to play the game is to be lazy, I'll take lazy over screwing over my players for, what I can guess is, the lolz.

Players get like 10 gp from their background, that's going to go far... I'll take being a lazy DM, that has plots and hooks over things that are much cooler than starting gold, than being one that wants to screw my players over.



You can focus on those stats without Heavy Armor anyways.


And your AC will be crap.

[Mikal]

Because this is a game about having fun first and foremost and the game is created so that you get stuff based on your background and class, the game assumes you have that stuff.

Hand waving the rules, because you want to screw over players, is now good DMing? Seems like the more fair way to play the game is to be lazy, I'll take lazy over screwing over my players for, what I can guess is, the lolz.

Players get like 10 gp from their background, that's going to go far... I'll take being a lazy DM, that has plots and hooks over things that are much cooler than starting gold, than being one that wants to screw my players over.

Yeah. The fact that you can’t actually use the situation as a plot hook does make you a lazy DM. Very cookie cutter. Glad we agree.

And the fact you think that such a situation is meant to screw over the players for the lolz as you put it also means you simply don’t get it. Too bad. You should try expanding your horizons.

Don’t bother replying to me. I’m not going to see it.

[LudicSavant]

And your AC will be crap.

That's just plain wrong.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

That's just plain wrong.

With 10 Dex and no heavy armor?

Well, dang, I didn't know 15 and/or 16 was good for someone running through enemies.

I'll go with 18 AC at first level for my walking fortress of death (chain mail + shield for the light cleric) thank you.

[LudicSavant]

With 10 Dex and no heavy armor? No, of course not with 10 Dex. Just like a VHuman wouldn't wear Heavy Armor with 10 Str if they wanted to build a useful character.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

No, of course not with 10 Dex. Just like a VHuman wouldn't wear Heavy Armor with 10 Str if they wanted to build a useful character.

Please read what I was talking about again.

I was talking about dropping dex to 10 and str to 13. This is the least investment into these two physical stats to have a really good AC.

Coming in and trying to change what I'm talking about completely is a weird way of trying to get your point across about how something else works.

[LudicSavant]

Please read what I was talking about again.

I was talking about dropping dex to 10 and str to 13. This is the least investment into these two physical stats to have a really good AC.

I did read what you were talking about. :smallannoyed:

Here's what you said, with regards to whether you'd take the Heavy Armor feat:

I definitely would if you want to focus on Con, Wis, and Int or Cha.

and your plan to accomplish it:

Just put Str at 13, grab heavy armor, and you can focus on Con, Wis, and Cha.

So, your goal is to maximize those stats while keeping your AC high.

Your plan to accomplish this is to drop Dex to 10 and Str to 13, and take the heavy armor feat.

The best array you can get out of point buy with that is 13 / 10 / 16 / 8 / 16 / 11, and the best armor you can wear without crippling your movement is Chain Mail (AC 16).

It is very easy to come up with a better plan. For example, you could take Res(Con) with 8 / 14 / 16 / 8 / 16 / 12, and the best armor you can wear without penalty would be Half-Plate (AC 17). Additionally, Dexterity is a better stat than Strength, and you end up with an extra save proficiency while you're at it.

Bold stats are the ones you said you wanted to focus on.