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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Other Summon Monster, Revised (spells)



rferries
2020-04-25, 11:18 AM
These spells are intended to replace the summon monster spells; they're more powerful but narrower in scope. Each set of summoning spells (minor summoning, lesser summoning, summoning, greater summoning, true summoning) is organised according to a particular elemental or alignment theme.

Elemental
Minor Earth Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Earth]
Level: Drd 1, Earth 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Earth] subtype (typically an outsider or elemental) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Terran) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Earth] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A pebble, handful of sand, or small gemstone (of any value).

Lesser Earth Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Earth]
Level: Drd 3, Earth 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor earth summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Earth] creature of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Earth Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Earth]
Level: Drd 5, Earth 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor earth summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Earth] creature of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Earth Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Earth]
Level: Drd 7, Earth 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor earth summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Earth] creature of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Earth Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Earth]
Level: Drd 9, Earth 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor earth summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Earth] creature of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.

Minor Flame Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
Level: Drd 1, Fire 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Fire] subtype (typically an outsider or elemental) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Ignan) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Fire] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A lump of coal or an open flame (e.g. a lit candle, torch, or lantern).

Lesser Flame Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
Level: Drd 3, Fire 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor flame summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Fire] creature of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Flame Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
Level: Drd 5, Fire 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor flame summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Fire] creature of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Flame Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
Level: Drd 7, Fire 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor flame summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Fire] creature of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Flame Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
Level: Drd 9, Fire 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor flame summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Fire] creature of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.

Minor Frost Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Cold]
Level: Air 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Water 1, Weather 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Cold] subtype (typically an outsider or elemental) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Aquan or Auran) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Cold] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A small piece of ice, glass, or crystal.

Lesser Frost Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Cold]
Level: Air 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3, Water 3, Weather 3

This spell functions as minor frost summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Cold] creature of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Frost Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Cold]
Level: Air 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5, Water 5, Weather 5

This spell functions as minor frost summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Cold] creature of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Frost Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Cold]
Level: Air 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7, Water 7, Weather 7

This spell functions as minor frost summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Cold] creature of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Frost Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Cold]
Level: Air 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Water 9, Weather 9

This spell functions as minor frost summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Cold] creature of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.

Minor Water Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Water]
Level: Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Water 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Water] subtype (typically an outsider or elemental) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Aquan) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Water] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A small flask or vial of water.

Lesser Water Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Water]
Level: Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3, Water 3

This spell functions as minor water summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Water] creature of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Water Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Water]
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5, Water 5

This spell functions as minor water summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Water] creature of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Water Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Water]
Level: Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7, Water 7

This spell functions as minor water summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Water] creature of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Water Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Water]
Level: Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Water 9

This spell functions as minor water summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Water] creature of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.

Minor Wind Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Air]
Level: Air 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1, Weather 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Air] subtype (typically an outsider or elemental) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Auran) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Air] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A small fan, censer, or chime.

Lesser Wind Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Air]
Level: Air 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 3, Weather 3

This spell functions as minor wind summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Air] creature of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Wind Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Air]
Level: Air 5, Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5, Weather 5

This spell functions as minor wind summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Air] creature of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Wind Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Air]
Level: Air 7, Drd 7, Sor/Wiz 7, Weather 7

This spell functions as minor wind summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Air] creature of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Wind Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Air]
Level: Air 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9, Weather 9

This spell functions as minor wind summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Air] creature of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.

Alignment
Minor Seelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Good]
Level: Brd 1, Chaos 1, Druid 1, Good 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a non-evil fey to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Sylvan) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any non-evil fey of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A four-leaf clover or a silver holy symbol of a chaotic good deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Seelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Good]
Level: Brd 3, Chaos 3, Drd 3, Good 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor seelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-evil fey of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Seelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Good]
Level: Brd 4, Chaos 5, Drd 5, Good 5, Rgr 3, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor seelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-evil fey of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Seelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Good]
Level: Brd 5, Chaos 7, Drd 7, Good 7, Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor seelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-evil fey of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Seelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Good]
Level: Bard 6, Chaos 9, Drd 9, Good 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor seelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-evil fey of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 11 or less.

Minor Unseelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Brd 1, Chaos 1, Drd 1, Evil 1, Rgr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute +1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a non-good fey to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Sylvan) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any non-good fey of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A shard from a broken mirror or a silver holy symbol of a chaotic evil deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Unseelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Brd 3, Chaos 3, Drd 3, Evil 3, Rgr 2, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor unseelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-good fey of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Unseelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Brd 4, Chaos 5, Clr 5, Drd 5, Evil 5, Rgr 3, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor unseelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-good fey of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Unseelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Brd 5, Chaos 7, Drd 7, Evil 7, Rgr 4, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor unseelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-good fey of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Unseelie Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Brd 6, Chaos 9, Drd 9, Evil 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor unseelie summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-good fey of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.

Minor Celestial Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute +1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Good] subtype (typically an outsider) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Celestial) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Good] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A flask of holy water (worth 25 gp) or a silver holy symbol of a good-aligned deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Celestial Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 3, Good 3, Pal 2, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor celestial summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] creature of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Celestial Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 5, Good 5, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor celestial summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] creature of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Celestial Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 7, Good 7, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor celestial summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] creature of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Celestial Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 9, Good 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor celestial summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] creature of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.

Minor Fiendish Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 1, Evil 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute + 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Evil] subtype (typically an outsider) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Abyssal or Infernal) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Evil] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A flask of unholy water (worth 25 gp) or a silver unholy symbol of an evil-aligned deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Fiendish Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Evil 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor fiendish summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] creature of CR 3 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 1 or less.

Fiendish Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 5, Evil 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor fiendish summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] creature of CR 7 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 5 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 4 or less.

Greater Fiendish Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 7, Evil 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor fiendish summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] creature of CR 11 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 9 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 8 or less.

True Fiendish Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 9, Evil 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor fiendish summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] creature of CR 15 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 13 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 12 or less.
Suggested Rules
Ethical Summoning
A summoned creature is aware of its summoner's alignment, which may make it suspicious of their motives. Obviously antithetical commands (e.g. ordering a celestial to slay a defenceless innocent) are never carried out.

The Laws of Magic
A summoned creature will never use a spell (or equivalent spell-like ability) with an XP cost, an expensive material component, or a spell level equal to or higher than the level of the spell that summoned it.

When a summoned creature returns to its home plane or is slain, any spells or spell-like abilities it used while summoned are immediately dispelled.

Substituting Creatures
When summoning a creature of a particular CR (especially if there is no preexisting creature of that CR available), a caster may choose to summon a creature of a lower CR that has been advanced to the desired CR. In such cases the DM chooses how to improve the creature (usually by adding Hit Dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice) or associated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLevels) or some combination of the two). Please consult your DM in advance to save time on generating stat blocks!

Furthermore, a particular summoning spell might be able to summon kinds of creatures not mentioned in the spell description, subject to DM approval. Suggested creatures include (but are not limited to):



Summoning Spell
Substituted Creatures


unseelie

drow, duergar, hags (any type), night hags, ogres, trolls, will-o’-wisps



seelie

centaurs, dwarves, eladrin (any type), elves, gnomes, unicorns




celestial

aasimar (usually paladins), androsphinxes, celestial creatures, half-celestial creatures, lammasu




fiendish

fiendish creatures, half-fiend creatures, tieflings (usually rogues)





Minor Daemonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 1, Evil 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Evil] subtype but neither the [Chaos] nor the [Law] subtypes (typically an outsider) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Abyssal or Infernal) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Evil] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A flask of unholy water (worth 25 gp) or a silver unholy symbol of a neutral evil deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Daemonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 3, Evil 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor daemonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Evil] creature of CR 5 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 3 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 2 or less.

Daemonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 5, Evil 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor daemonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Evil] creature of CR 9 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 7 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 6 or less.

Greater Daemonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 7, Evil 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor daemonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Evil] creature of CR 13 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 11 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 10 or less.

True Daemonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil]
Level: Clr 9, Evil 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor daemonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Evil] creature of CR 17 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 15 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 14 or less.

Minor Demonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Chaos 1, Clr 1, Evil 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with both the [Chaos] and [Evil] subtypes (typically a demon) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Abyssal) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Chaos] and [Evil] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A flask of unholy water (worth 25 gp) or a silver unholy symbol of a chaotic evil deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Demonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Chaos 3, Clr 3, Evil 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor demonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Chaos] and [Evil] creature of CR 5 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 3 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 2 or less.

Demonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Chaos 5, Clr 5, Evil 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor demonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Chaos] and [Evil] creature of CR 9 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 7 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 6 or less.

Greater Demonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Chaos 7, Clr 7, Evil 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor demonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Chaos] and [Evil] creature of CR 13 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 11 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 10 or less.

True Demonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos, Evil]
Level: Chaos 9, Clr 9, Evil 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor demonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Chaos] and [Evil] creature of CR 17 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 15 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 14 or less.

Minor Diabolic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil, Law]
Level: Clr 1, Evil 1, Law 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with both the [Evil] and [Law] subtypes (typically a devil) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Infernal) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Evil] and [Law] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A flask of unholy water (worth 25 gp) or a silver unholy symbol of a lawful evil deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Diabolic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil, Law]
Level: Clr 3, Evil 3, Law 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor diabolic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] and [Law] creature of CR 5 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 3 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 2 or less.

Diabolic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil, Law]
Level: Clr 5, Evil 5, Law 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor diabolic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] and [Law] creature of CR 9 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 7 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 6 or less.

Greater Diabolic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil, Law]
Level: Clr 7, Evil 7, Law 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor diabolic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] and [Law] creature of CR 13 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 11 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 10 or less.

True Diabolic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Evil, Law]
Level: Clr 9, Evil 9, Law 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor diabolic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Evil] and [Law] creature of CR 17 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 15 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 14 or less.

Minor Divine Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Good] subtype but neither the [Chaos] nor the [Law] subtypes (typically an outsider) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Celestial) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Good] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A flask of holy water (worth 25 gp) or a silver holy symbol of a neutral good deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Divine Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 3, Good 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor divine summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Good] creature of CR 5 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 3 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 2 or less.

Divine Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 5, Good 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor divine summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Good] creature of CR 9 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 7 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 6 or less.

Greater Divine Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 7, Good 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor divine summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Good] creature of CR 13 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 11 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 10 or less.

True Divine Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good]
Level: Clr 9, Good 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor divine summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Chaos] non-[Law] [Good] creature of CR 17 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 15 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 14 or less.

Minor Entropic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos]
Level: Chaos 1, Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Chaos] subtype but neither the [Evil] nor the [Good] subtypes (typically an outsider) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Abyssal) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Chaos] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A silver holy symbol of a chaotic neutral deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Entropic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos]
Level: Chaos 3, Clr 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor entropic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Chaos] creature of CR 5 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 3 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 2 or less.

Entropic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos]
Level: Chaos 5, Clr 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor entropic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Chaos] creature of CR 9 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 7 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 6 or less.

Greater Entropic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos]
Level: Chaos 7, Clr 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor entropic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Chaos] creature of CR 13 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 11 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 10 or less.

True Entropic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos]
Level: Chaos 9, Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor entropic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Chaos] creature of CR 17 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 15 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 14 or less.

Minor Harmonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good, Law]
Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Law 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with both the [Good] and [Law] subtypes (typically an archon) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Celestial) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any [Good] and [Law] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A flask of holy water (worth 25 gp) or a silver holy symbol of a lawful good deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Harmonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good, Law]
Level: Clr 3, Good 3, Law 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor harmonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] and [Law] creature of CR 5 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 3 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 2 or less.

Harmonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good, Law]
Level: Clr 5, Good 5, Law 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor harmonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] and [Law] creature of CR 9 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 7 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 6 or less.

Greater Harmonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good, Law]
Level: Clr 7, Good 7, Law 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor harmonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] and [Law] creature of CR 13 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 11 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 10 or less.

True Harmonic Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Good, Law]
Level: Clr 9, Good 9, Law 9, Sor/Wiz 9

This spell functions as minor harmonic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any [Good] and [Law] creature of CR 17 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 15 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 14 or less.

Minor Order Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Law]
Level: Clr 1, Law 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a creature with the [Law] subtype but neither the [Evil] nor the [Good] subtypes (typically an outsider or inevitable) to serve you for the duration.

You must be able to communicate with the creature (typically by speaking Celestial) to command it; otherwise it simply attacks creatures that are overtly hostile towards you.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Law] creature of CR 1 or less, subject to DM approval.

Arcane Focus
A silver holy symbol of a lawful neutral deity (worth 25 gp).

Lesser Order Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Law]
Level: Clr 3, Law 3, Sor/Wiz 3

This spell functions as minor order summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Law] creature of CR 5 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 3 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 2 or less.

Order Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Law]
Level: Clr 5, Law 5, Sor/Wiz 5

This spell functions as minor order summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Law] creature of CR 9 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 7 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 6 or less.

Greater Order Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Law]
Level: Clr 7, Law 7, Sor/Wiz 7

This spell functions as minor order summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Law] creature of CR 13 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 11 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 10 or less.

True Order Summoning
Conjuration (Summoning) [Chaos]
Level: Clr 9, Law 9, Sor/Wiz

This spell functions as minor entropic summoning, except as described above and as follows.

You may summon any non-[Evil] non-[Good] [Chaos] creature of CR 17 or less, or up to two such creatures each of CR 15 or less, or up to three such creatures each of CR 14 or less.

rferries
2020-04-25, 11:21 AM
The current summon monster spells have some problems IMHO:
-Casting time is too long and duration is too short. At 1st level, who wants to waste a full round and a precious spell slot summoning a celestial dog to maybe hit for 1d4+1 damage one time, instead of using magic missile)?
-The creatures you can summon vary too much in CR (already an imperfect metric).
-Conversely, at higher levels, the variety of creatures you can summon is too broad, leading to all sorts of SLA exploits and my personal bugbear, loss of flavour. Why should a single combat spell be able to summon both demons and archons?

Here's my attempt at fixing them:
-Broken down into multiple thematic lines, reducing their versatility.
-Reduced casting time and improved duration (though in the latter case could be altered to to strike a happy medium).
-Standardised the CRs you can summon, though this could be bumped down as I've probably wayyyy overshot the power level.

Questions:
How much should the CR of summoned creatures be reduced?

Should the duration be reduced to "one minute, plus one round/level" or even require concentration (requiring that you direct the creatures in combat)?

Should a summoned creature count as a party member when determining XP rewards?

Should some of the spells be merged back or at least made more flexible, e.g. be able to summon planetouched and similar outsiders of a particular alignment even even the don't have the official subtypes of that alignment?

To do?...
Corpse Summoning (corporeal undead)
Far Summoning (aberrations)
Fauna Summoning (animals, vermin, dire animals, swarms)
Floral Summoning (plants)
Spirit Summoning (noncorporeal undead)

New Rules
The Laws of Magic
A creature summoned through a Conjuration (Summoning) spell may not cast a spell (or use an equivalent spell-like ability) if that spell has an XP cost, an expensive material component, or a spell level equal to or higher than the level of the spell that summoned the creature.

For example, a ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm) summoned through greater seelie summoning (a 7th-level spell) cannot cast 7th-level spells and cannot use its continual flame (expensive material component) or prismatic spray (a 7th-level spell) spell-like abilities.

Substituting Creatures
When summoning a creature of a particular CR (especially if there is no preexisting creature of that CR available), a caster may choose to summon a creature of a lower CR that has been advanced to the desired CR. In such cases the DM chooses how to improve the creature (usually by adding Hit Dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice) or associated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLevels) or some combination of the two). Please consult your DM in advance to save time on generating stat blocks!

For example, instead of summoning a marilith with true demonic summoning a caster might choose to summon a succubus advanced to CR 17 by the DM (e.g. by advancing it to 12 racial Hit Dice and adding 7 levels of rogue).

Miss Disaster
2020-04-25, 08:55 PM
I like these. The give-&-take tweaks seem fairly well balanced. I'll give them a shot and see how I can optimize them.

Also to note, the Shadow Conjuration spells just suddenly got more oomph to them.

Unavenger
2020-04-26, 07:00 AM
Questions:
How much should the CR of summoned creatures be reduced?

Given that summoning is in the position of being viable, with some effort, at the levels where the duration is okay, and given that you're fixing the duration and the casting time, the maximum CR should also be the highest CR that the spells allow:

I: 1/3 (Dog et al)
II: 1 (Most of them) or 1d3 @ 1/3
III: 3 (Hellhound) or 1d3 @ 1 or 1d4+1 @ 1/3
IV: 4 (Dire Wolf et al) or 1d3 @ 2 or 1d4+1 @ 1
V: 5 (Most of them) or 1d3 @ 4 or 1d4+1 @ 2
VI: 9 (Fiendish Elasmosaurus, although this may be a mistake?) or 1d3 @ 5 or 1d4+1 @ 4
VII: 9 (Various) or 1d3 @ 9 or 1d4+1 @ 5
VIII: 11 (Celestial Triceratops) or 1d3 @ 9 or 1d4+1 @ 9
IX: 13 (Fiendish Colossomonsterspider) or 1d3 @ 11 or 1d4+1 @ 9

If we clean this up a bit and throw the Elasmosaurus in the trash because it's clearly messing with our results:

I: 1/3
II: 1
III: 3
IV: 4
V: 5
VI: 7
VII: 9
VIII: 11
IX: 13

Now, with the way that CRs and ELs work, and you've already figured this out, we need the "two of 'em" option to be at -2 CR, and the "three of 'em" option to be at -2.828stuff CR, which is about -3 CR. Of course, with fractional CRs being the way they are (AKA following standard division, except when they don't), and with the fact that I think having three CR 1/8 critters following you around is probably fine, this means something like:

I: 1/3 or 2@1/6 or 3@1/8
II: 1 or 2@1/2 or 3 @1/3
III: 3 or 2@1 or 3@1/2
IV: 4 or 2@2 or 3@1
V: 5 or 2@3 or 3@2
VI: 7 or 2@5 or 3@4
VII: 9 or 2@7 or 3@6
VIII: 11 or 2@9 or 3@8
IX: 13 or 2@11 or 3@10

This starts with the creature being two steps below the caster, and working its way up to four steps below the caster - which makes sense, because the relevance of a mid-level character mucking around in high-level combat can still be quite high, but a CR 1 creature wouldn't really cut it in a party of level 5s. Weirdly, WotC seem to have had some vague understanding of what they were doing (shocker!).


Should the duration be reduced to "one minute, plus one round/level" or even require concentration (requiring that you direct the creatures in combat)?

I feel like 1 minute + 1 round/level is good enough, otherwise you can pre-summon a bunch of stuff and wade into combat with an army.


Should a summoned creature count as a party member when determining XP rewards?

No. Never have, never should.


Should some of the spells be merged back or at least made more flexible, e.g. be able to summon planetouched and similar outsiders of a particular alignment even even the don't have the official subtypes of that alignment?

YES.

This change makes sorcerers really sad when they were already unhappy compared to the wizards. Also, I'm pretty certain that a decent fraction of these spells will be flat-out useless (Minor Harmonic Summoning can't summon any core archons, as they have CR 2 minimum). If you have to split them up (and why?) then just have one for each creature type, tops. I'd even throw animals and magical beasts; abberations, elementals and outsiders; humanoids, giants and monstrous humanoids; oozes and vermin; fey and plants; into boxes together. It also makes more thematic sense to have a dragon summoner or an animal and magical beast summoner than a red dragon, fire elemental and pyrohydra summoner, I think? I dunno, I like "Dragons" as a theme better than "An assortment of vaguely fire-related things", and "Dragons" also actually feels like a higher-level concept so it doesn't feel as weird to be told "No, there's no first-level spell that summons dragons" as it does to be told "Whoops, looks like there aren't any lawful good outsiders that are this weak, sorry!"


New Rules
The Laws of Magic
A creature summoned through a Conjuration (Summoning) spell may not cast a spell (or use an equivalent spell-like ability) if that spell has an XP cost, an expensive material component, or a spell level equal to or higher than the level of the spell that summoned the creature.

For example, a ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm) summoned through greater seelie summoning (a 7th-level spell) cannot cast 7th-level spells and cannot use its continual flame (expensive material component) or prismatic spray (a 7th-level spell) spell-like abilities.

You shouldn't really be able to summon a CR 13 creature with a spell that you only got when you reached CR 13, so most of this shouldn't be an issue.


Substituting Creatures
When summoning a creature of a particular CR (especially if there is no preexisting creature of that CR available), a caster may choose to summon a creature of a lower CR that has been advanced to the desired CR. In such cases the DM chooses how to improve the creature (usually by adding Hit Dice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice) or associated class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLevels) or some combination of the two). Please consult your DM in advance to save time on generating stat blocks!

For example, instead of summoning a marilith with true demonic summoning a caster might choose to summon a succubus advanced to CR 17 by the DM (e.g. by advancing it to 12 racial Hit Dice and adding 7 levels of rogue).

As a DM, I do not want to have to do all this work. This is why you should make the spells less narrow, among other things.

NigelWalmsley
2020-04-26, 03:03 PM
I: 1/3 (Dog et al)
II: 1 (Most of them) or 1d3 @ 1/3
III: 3 (Hellhound) or 1d3 @ 1 or 1d4+1 @ 1/3
IV: 4 (Dire Wolf et al) or 1d3 @ 2 or 1d4+1 @ 1
V: 5 (Most of them) or 1d3 @ 4 or 1d4+1 @ 2
VI: 9 (Fiendish Elasmosaurus, although this may be a mistake?) or 1d3 @ 5 or 1d4+1 @ 4
VII: 9 (Various) or 1d3 @ 9 or 1d4+1 @ 5
VIII: 11 (Celestial Triceratops) or 1d3 @ 9 or 1d4+1 @ 9
IX: 13 (Fiendish Colossomonsterspider) or 1d3 @ 11 or 1d4+1 @ 9

You're missing something by just looking at raw CR. If you look at e.g. Summon Monster IX, you see that the creatures that get actual meaningful abilities (e.g. Night Hag, Hezrou, Couatl) are in the CR 10-11 range. The spider is CR 13, but it's also a big dumb bruiser that is pretty medium against the kinds of challenges you expect people to face at 17th level. Picking caster monsters that are the same CR as the bruiser monsters the spell gives you is a buff that is not necessarily warranted.


This change makes sorcerers really sad when they were already unhappy compared to the wizards.

Then make Sorcerers better. The fact that the Sorcerer's "less spells known, slower progression, more spells per day" tradeoff is bad doesn't mean every spell should be maximally versatile. It means the Sorcerer should be fixed.


As a DM, I do not want to have to do all this work. This is why you should make the spells less narrow, among other things.

Or just do the work your own damn self. If you are writing an ability suite where large parts of it are "IDK, figure it out", you have not finished writing the ability suite.

Morphic tide
2020-04-26, 04:32 PM
It shouldn't be summoning creatures with CR=min CL, as that means you are summoning what the CR rules to consider something equal to the caster. Perhaps have it trend at CR = 2/3rds min CL, and have the same reduction as part of the proxy-casting restrictions? Another thought to constrain the "all-solving hammer" nature of it would be having it so they must choose a creature to summon during preparation, so Wizards and Clerics have to choose ahead of time, while Sorcerers, Druids (due to the spontaneous Summon Nature's Ally) and Favored Souls conversely are allowed the choice during casting as they don't ever prepare the spell.

Maybe have it be partially templated rather than enumerating all of it, such that you have a general "Summon Outsiders", prepare and craft items containing the current style of subtype split as the spell actively cast and counterspelled (with opposites also counterspelling like the Haste/Slow interaction), while going down a spell level is formally and solely the spell actually cast without the option to prepare a different version and going up a level is fully on-the-fly choice. So a Sorcerer could still take just summoning Celestials and enjoy it, because it's a level lower than the general case that has a large amount of more redundant options than Neutral Good Outsiders bring to the Sorc/Wiz list.

I'd also leave out Corpse Summoning and Spirit Summoning, because Undead are created long-term by other means which would become redundant with the ability to summon them, and the list of problematic Undead abilities consists of the extremely vast majority of the things, between the energy drain, spawn creation, equipment reliance, templates, and level-based Undead. Summoning Liches and Vampires is a very bad pile of worms. On that end, just let Necromancy keep its job, work out some other way of going about it if you really want Undead minionmancy to have the whole book available without having to hunt down and Control the things.

A further thought would be having each in the chain give additional benefits, so you might be able to apply your slots with the 3rd level to bypass the simple spell level restrictions (perhaps increasing the restriction to CL=1/2 caster CL and what is then usable, for something that makes it stronger at higher CLs of the same spell and a much more frequent use of this function?), remove the language dependence with the 5th level version, offer the components for the summoned creature's SLAs with the 7th level, and the 9th level lets you choose by abilities rather than by variety of creature, thereby being a proper "all-solving hammer" by design, albeit costing a lot of the spell slots in question and having more limits than Wish or Gate, in exchange for just plain working without DM permission, large expenses, piles of contested checks, or any of that other game-slowing nonsense.

Unavenger
2020-04-27, 04:42 AM
You're missing something by just looking at raw CR. If you look at e.g. Summon Monster IX, you see that the creatures that get actual meaningful abilities (e.g. Night Hag, Hezrou, Couatl) are in the CR 10-11 range. The spider is CR 13, but it's also a big dumb bruiser that is pretty medium against the kinds of challenges you expect people to face at 17th level. Picking caster monsters that are the same CR as the bruiser monsters the spell gives you is a buff that is not necessarily warranted.

This is sorta true. I forget that some people play "Everyone is always a full caster/manifester, with levels in some silly PrC, all the time" D&D and spiders the size of barns are mediocre in those games. I guess there should be some sort of restriction on having any of the good monsters 'cause otherwise people will just splat-dive for the strongest monsters. But then, to do that, one has to whitelist monsters again or spend a lot of time splat-diving to ban the broken ones.


Then make Sorcerers better. The fact that the Sorcerer's "less spells known, slower progression, more spells per day" tradeoff is bad doesn't mean every spell should be maximally versatile. It means the Sorcerer should be fixed.

I like your "Dress for the sorcerer you want, not the sorcerer you have" mentality, but unless he was really planning to rewrite the sorcerer to increase its brokenness in line with the wizard's, he needs to consider the real sorcerer.


Or just do the work your own damn self. If you are writing an ability suite where large parts of it are "IDK, figure it out", you have not finished writing the ability suite.

*5e's skill system has left the chat*

Memes aside, the problem with writing up advanced summon monsters for all the spells is that it would be way too much work. I think they need to be changed to be less narrow, rather than trying to write a monster for every eventuality.

rferries
2020-04-28, 09:14 AM
Thanks for the comments, everyone! I've reorganised the spells a bit, mainly by distilling the alignment-dependent ones down to just 4 spells. I'll leave the Chaos/Law/Animal/Plant/etc. versions for now as I'm burnt out from all the editing haha.

The scale of spell-to-summons is now:
minor summoning (1st-level spell) - one creature of CR 1

lesser summoning (3rd-level spell) - one creature of CR 3, or two of CR 1

summoning (5th-level spell) - one creature of CR 7, or two of CR 5, or three of CR 4

greater summoning (7th-level spell) - one creature of CR 11, or two of CR 9, or three of CR 8

true summoning (9th-level spell) - one creature of CR 15, or two of CR 13, or three of CR 12

The minor and true versions are disproportionately buffed when compared to their summon monster counterparts, but at low levels the buff is definitely needed and at higher levels they're still competing with planar ally, planar binding, and especially gate.

To respond to specific comments:

This does reduce the versatility of sorcerers, but since the individual creatures you can spam are more powerful I think it averages out roughly the same. The theme of that class is more spells/day at the cost of spells known, anyways.

The idea of having to choose the summon when you prepare the spell is a very clever fix (and certainly gets around the aforementioned sorcerer problem)! I suggest using it as an additional houserule.

The "laws of magic" clause is there to help cover unforeseen eventualities e.g. a creature from obscure splatbook that is otherwise fine but has casting abilities above its actual level or some other potentially broken aspect.

Some final thoughts:

I wonder why Conjuration (Summoning) spells don't require a Will save? You're pulling something across the planes and forcing it to do your bidding, after all. Plus: what happens when you're on a different plane and try to summon a creature from that plane? :D

Aasimar/celestial creature/fiendish creatures/tieflings reallly should have the appropriate alignment subtypes IMHO, if for no other reason than it would have caused me fewer headaches haha.

Were I do to this again (NOT BLOODY LIKELY!), I think I'd be very specific and have a different spell for each summon e.g. a line of fire spells including a spell to summon an efreet, a spell to summon an elder fire elemental, etc. Alternatively, I'd homebrew creatures to fill the "gaps" in available creatures to summon.

PairO'Dice Lost
2020-04-28, 12:20 PM
I wonder why Conjuration (Summoning) spells don't require a Will save? You're pulling something across the planes and forcing it to do your bidding, after all.

In Planescape, the spell creates a thing called a "summoning crystal" on the destination plane that zips around trying to grab a creature of the appropriate type and then basically reverse-astral projections the one it grabs, so (A) it would be a Ref save, not a Will save, technically, and (B) it doesn't need to allow a save in the spell description because even if it did there are a bajillion monsters of a given kind on a given and you can just wait until one natural-1s the save.

In other settings, Complete Mage says a summon spell creates a copy of a creature rather than bringing a real creature to the caster--that's the domain of (Calling) spells--so there's no actual creature to make a save, or even care that it's being controlled.

rferries
2020-04-28, 03:27 PM
In Planescape, the spell creates a thing called a "summoning crystal" on the destination plane that zips around trying to grab a creature of the appropriate type and then basically reverse-astral projections the one it grabs, so (A) it would be a Ref save, not a Will save, technically, and (B) it doesn't need to allow a save in the spell description because even if it did there are a bajillion monsters of a given kind on a given and you can just wait until one natural-1s the save.

In other settings, Complete Mage says a summon spell creates a copy of a creature rather than bringing a real creature to the caster--that's the domain of (Calling) spells--so there's no actual creature to make a save, or even care that it's being controlled.

Huh, TIL! Thanks, I think the natural-1 explanation is my favourite.

NigelWalmsley
2020-04-29, 09:09 PM
I guess there should be some sort of restriction on having any of the good monsters 'cause otherwise people will just splat-dive for the strongest monsters. But then, to do that, one has to whitelist monsters again or spend a lot of time splat-diving to ban the broken ones.

Well, yeah. If you just let people dumpster-dive for anything with CR<=X, it's just Planar Binding, and Planar Binding is broken. It's not as broken as Planar Binding, because it scales slower and doesn't have the "some monsters have bizarrely low HD" problem Planar Binding does, but fundamentally there's no way to make "take whatever you want out of the Monster Manual balanced". If you set the number high enough that creatures are relevant in combat, it provides too much utility, and if you set the number low enough that it isn't the best utility spell in the game, it's garbage in combat. Also there are things with CRs that are either off or compensated for by situational drawbacks.


I like your "Dress for the sorcerer you want, not the sorcerer you have" mentality, but unless he was really planning to rewrite the sorcerer to increase its brokenness in line with the wizard's, he needs to consider the real sorcerer.

Even if you're not changing the Sorcerer, it's not like the class needs Summon Monster to be good. You could just cast any of the other Sorcerer/Wizard spells that are also good. The Sorcerer doesn't really care if any particular spell on its list is good or not, because the number of spells on it's list is an order of magnitude or two more than the number of spells it learns.


The minor and true versions are disproportionately buffed when compared to their summon monster counterparts, but at low levels the buff is definitely needed and at higher levels they're still competing with planar ally, planar binding, and especially gate.

Why would you want to compete with spells that are notoriously game-destroyingly broken? What do you even mean by "compete with Planar Binding", given the enormous range of power levels that spell is capable of occupying.

Also, why are there no even-leveled variants? It's causing you to give people CR 1 summons at 1st level, which is not actually okay. That's as strong as your whole character. And it lasts for an entire combat.


The "laws of magic" clause is there to help cover unforeseen eventualities e.g. a creature from obscure splatbook that is otherwise fine but has casting abilities above its actual level or some other potentially broken aspect.

Why not just do what the actual summon spells do and whitelist? That's the best solution to this problem. I get that it's more work, but sometimes you have to put in effort to get the result you want.

rferries
2020-04-30, 04:36 PM
Why would you want to compete with spells that are notoriously game-destroyingly broken? What do you even mean by "compete with Planar Binding", given the enormous range of power levels that spell is capable of occupying.

Compete was a poor choice of words, just meant that a PC might prefer those spells depending on the problem they're facing (especially outside of encounters).


Also, why are there no even-leveled variants? It's causing you to give people CR 1 summons at 1st level, which is not actually okay. That's as strong as your whole character. And it lasts for an entire combat.

Mostly due to sloth :D, but a little for flavour reasons (instead of just a bland "summon monster _"). I actually think CR 1 summons is fine for a 1st-level spell - as a 1st-level wizard you want your two spells for the day to be impressive (and honestly you'll probably still just pick sleep).

However, if CR 1 is too powerful for a campaign the DM is free to simply limit minor summoning to what summon monster I can do.


Why not just do what the actual summon spells do and whitelist? That's the best solution to this problem. I get that it's more work, but sometimes you have to put in effort to get the result you want.

IMHO, thematically the summon monster spells are simultaneously too broad (can summon both a demon and an archon), and too narrow (can only summon creatures from a particular list). My versions allow you to summon creatures from any book you have access to and that fit broader archetypes (e.g. a fey-themed druid, a 1st-level wizard with a Small fire elemental "pet", etc), DM-permitting of course.

And, as you note, it'd be a lot more work to write out full lists :smallbiggrin: