social god with imp familiar?

[JeffreyGator]

I was thinking about the skill proficiencies of the imp.

Deception +4, Insight +3, Persuasion +4, Stealth +5

With an invisible telepathic being on the caster's shoulder with these skills how reasonable would it be to effectively have all the time advantage on these skills via the help action?

"You can lend your aid to another creature in the completion of a task. When you take the Help action, the creature you aid gains advantage on the next ability check it makes to perform the task you are helping with, provided that it makes the check before the start of your next turn."

[Expired]

As long as the check in question isn't reactionary (e.g. Athletics/Acrobatics check for a sudden grapple), I'd allow it as a DM.

[JeffreyGator]

Yeah I would only apply this to the skills that the Imp had so Deception, Persuasion, Insight.

Mostly out of combat.

[Anymage]

The imp would have to be present in order to grant assistance. This won't be too much of a problem in the first half of your career, but there are plenty of ways to spot an invisible fiend later on. Expect to meet many creatures with preparations.

On top of that, other PCs could easily have similar training, making them an easy source of advantage as well.

I'd allow it if you had an imp familiar. Having your imp whisper useful things in your ear is entirely in its idiom, and it would be nice to have a perk to non-hexblade locks. Caveats above deserve noting, though.

[Expired]

The Imp familiar using the Help action would break its invisibility as it is an action so be sure to be in the company of those who are accepting of, or at least indifferent to, fiends.

[1Pirate]

AFB, but I don't think help action breaks invisibility.

[Expired]

AFB, but I don't think help action breaks invisibility.
You're right. The Help action would normally break Invisibility but the Imp doing so does not.

[Mr Adventurer]

Being invisible doesn't mean it's automatically undetected. The Imp would have to spend actions to Hide, or else people would notice something was there. Depending on the timing of the Hide action, this could prevent it using the Help action.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Being invisible doesn't mean it's automatically undetected. The Imp would have to spend actions to Hide, or else people would notice something was there. Depending on the timing of the Hide action, this could prevent it using the Help action.

The Imp can also turn into a spider and hang out in your pocket if you happen to play in a world where detecting invisibility is everywhere.

[Mr Adventurer]

The Imp can also turn into a spider and hang out in your pocket if you happen to play in a world where detecting invisibility is everywhere.

In which case it won't be able to see the scene and a DM may rule it can't offer Help.

But it's also not about being able to detect invisibility, as such. Being invisible doesn't mean you're hidden, you still have to do that.

[NorthernPhoenix]

In which case it won't be able to see the scene and a DM may rule it can't offer Help.

But it's also not about being able to detect invisibility, as such. Being invisible doesn't mean you're hidden, you still have to do that.

After that we could go back and forth on increasingly niche hypotheticals (What if he peaks out!!!), but isn't the real truth that if the DM wants you to not do this, he will stop you some way, and if he thinks it's OK, the invisible Imp can sit on your head doing whatever. The invisibility rules are the way they are to reign in potential abuse, and what that includes will differ from DM to DM.

[Mr Adventurer]

No, that's true, but it's not "the" truth. Especially given that there is interpretation involved, it's reasonable to discuss different interpretations.

And the bit about invisibility and Hiding is RAW.

[sambojin]

The help action, for advantage in a situation, surely requires some knowledge of the help to the creature being helped against?

Is the imp invisibly tussling your hair, in the cutest or I'm-not-even way imaginable, while you speak to someone for bonuses on persuasion or deception?

I can see insight being easily allowable, as the imp whispers its thoughts of someone telepathically to you.

But stealth? Is it making swoosh noises invisibly to cover the sound of your clanky movement? Or is it lifting you up a little with its flying speed, as quietly as possible, so your footfalls are lighter?

I mean, I can see how either a yes/no answer on any of these are possible. So it's a dm decides, but how cool are imps?
"Great Gnarl of Garl! He has swooshy boots! Get him lads!"

[da newt]

For Deception, Persuasion, Insight - an invisible IMP can certainly help out by communicating telepathically.

As for stealth - maybe a distraction, or telepathic hints (don't step there dummy) but that one is much more of a stretch for me.

As for the effects of INVISIBLE aka "Being invisible doesn't mean you're hidden, you still have to do that.":

PHB: An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. - The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.

-> a flying creature leaves no tracks, but might make a noise otherwise no need to hide/stealth and no way to observe it. Doesn't this require taking the perception action and then rolling an ability check or resolving via passive perception? What is the right DC for I see nothing and I'm not actively searching for something hidden, but I hear a faint whooshing?

-> a creature perched on someone's shoulder makes no noise and leaves no tracks - so how does anyone perceive them (other than true sight / magic etc)?

[Mr Adventurer]

As for the effects of INVISIBLE aka "Being invisible doesn't mean you're hidden, you still have to do that.":

PHB: An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. - The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.

-> a flying creature leaves no tracks,Not on the ground, but it might leave marks of its passage elsewise.


but might make a noise otherwise no need to hide/stealth and no way to observe it. Doesn't this require taking the perception action and then rolling an ability check or resolving via passive perception? What is the right DC for I see nothing and I'm not actively searching for something hidden, but I hear a faint whooshing?The rules are as I have stated - you need to spend an action to Hide. Typically this is done against the Passive Perception of creatures who might observe you, yes, and they can spend an Action of their own to roll an active Perception check.


-> a creature perched on someone's shoulder makes no noise and leaves no tracksThis is false in both the real world and under the rules of the game.

[JeffreyGator]

given my thread title - i'm most interested in persuasion / deception / insight and this can from the invisible imp, visible raven on a tree/the character's shoulder whatever.

Thanks all for engaging - now I need to get my character a friendly imp after giving up a surprisingly helpful Quasit.

[Zetakya]

-> a creature perched on someone's shoulder makes no noise and leaves no tracks - so how does anyone perceive them (other than true sight / magic etc)?

A faint odour of brimstone and diabolical whispering?

[Segev]

given my thread title - i'm most interested in persuasion / deception / insight and this can from the invisible imp, visible raven on a tree/the character's shoulder whatever.

Thanks all for engaging - now I need to get my character a friendly imp after giving up a surprisingly helpful Quasit.

Why was he surprisingly helpful, and why do you need to get rid of him? Is the expected utility of these help actions that much higher than the quasit's helpfulness?

[Quietus]

I wouldn't even bother with invisibility. Have it turn into a rat or a raven, and if anyone questions it, tell them it's your familiar. Wizards have them all the time.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I wouldn't even bother with invisibility. Have it turn into a rat or a raven, and if anyone questions it, tell them it's your familiar. Wizards have them all the time.

Yes, that's my first thought, too. Shapechanging is a lot harder to see through than Invisibility and doesn't require any effort in hiding.

[Quietus]

Yes, that's my first thought, too. Shapechanging is a lot harder to see through than Invisibility and doesn't require any effort in hiding.

Not only that, if someone asks what that is, you can simply tell them it's your familiar. No lies required!