Moving stealthily - skill check or action?

[Helliquin]

Summary:

New DM, first session.

Fast forward to my turn later in the session. We are in first round combat. Nobody had attacked yet. Party is hiding in a corner behind some cover. Asked if I could move stealthily behind cover to improve view of the room. Stealth Skill check. Failed. Was told that took my action so could then not attack with bow or other.

I can understand a skill check to move stealthily, but when did that turn in to an action? Not like I was Hiding (action), simply moving quietly (to whatever degree of success) - which is where skill checks come in to play.

I asked for clarification and was advised that it takes effort to do so... I was trying to understand this DM's logic, and asked if a player were to vault over a table to attack, would that be a) skill check to vault, b) action to vault or c) nothing apart from extra movement.

Was told extra movement.

So... walking quietly takes more effort than vaulting a table?

Is this a hang over from a previous edition stealth rules? Or has DM interpreted my wanting to move quietly as a "hide" action of a sorts?

[Kane0]

Well if you asked to do something quietly (stealthily) and the DM asked you to roll an ability check for it, the default assumption is that rolling an ability check is an action (with exceptions like shoves and a rogue's cunning action).

It seems most likely the second, the DM interpreting the Hide action for you to do something stealthy.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It is an hide action. If you were not hidden before I would have told you you need to use your action to hide.
If I was in your place I was asking the DM why haven't he told me before that it is an action to move.

If you moved more then half your movement (which is the speed you move when you try to stay stealthy) then is should cost your your action to dash.

[Greywander]

If you moved more then half your movement (which is the speed you move when you try to stay stealthy) then is should cost your your action to dash.
This is a Thief-specific thing. And it's not that they can't move more than half their speed, they just get advantage on their Stealth check if they don't move more than half their speed.

As for the OP, the DM is correct. Ability checks default to using an action, and the Hide action is what you use to become hidden. What you could have done, and how a more charitable DM might have interpreted your actions, was that you used an action to hide first, then tried to sneak up on the enemy (i.e. it was the next turn and you had your action back). Once you are hidden, it doesn't require an action to stay hidden.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

This is a Thief-specific thing. And it's not that they can't move more than half their speed, they just get advantage on their Stealth check if they don't move more than half their speed.

As for the OP, the DM is correct. Ability checks default to using an action, and the Hide action is what you use to become hidden. What you could have done, and how a more charitable DM might have interpreted your actions, was that you used an action to hide first, then tried to sneak up on the enemy (i.e. it was the next turn and you had your action back). Once you are hidden, it doesn't require an action to stay hidden.

I was confused with the travel rules that say you can only move slowly if you move stealthy.

[Greywander]

I was confused with the travel rules that say you can only move slowly if you move stealthy.
So you confused one rule with another one, and then I confused your confusion with a third rule. Are you sure we're not characters in a comedy? :smalltongue:

Now I'm waiting for someone to chime in that it's not the thief, it's the ranger. And instead of moving at half speed, they don't move at all. And they don't get advantage, they get a +10 to their stealth check.

Then someone will chime in that you actually can move, and it's actually a +10 bonus to the whole party.

Then someone will say it's just +10 for you, and you're immune to divination magic, but it doesn't really matter since most campaigns don't reach 20th level.

Then someone will say that the artificer can make it as one of their infusions, and actually it is advantage, and doesn't affect speed at all.

Then the thread will get derailed because no one knows what anyone else is talking about. By the way, Supreme Sneak, Hide in Plain Sight, Pass without Trace, Boon of Undetectability, Boots of Elvenkind. Man, there are a lot of things that affect stealth.

[Zalabim]

So you confused one rule with another one, and then I confused your confusion with a third rule. Are you sure we're not characters in a comedy? :smalltongue:

Now I'm waiting for someone to chime in that it's not the thief, it's the ranger. And instead of moving at half speed, they don't move at all. And they don't get advantage, they get a +10 to their stealth check.

Then someone will chime in that you actually can move, and it's actually a +10 bonus to the whole party.

Then someone will say it's just +10 for you, and you're immune to divination magic, but it doesn't really matter since most campaigns don't reach 20th level.

Then someone will say that the artificer can make it as one of their infusions, and actually it is advantage, and doesn't affect speed at all.

Then the thread will get derailed because no one knows what anyone else is talking about. By the way, Supreme Sneak, Hide in Plain Sight, Pass without Trace, Boon of Undetectability, Boots of Elvenkind. Man, there are a lot of things that affect stealth.

And then I come in to say it's not technically stealth, but actual invisibility in darkness (without clarifying if I mean the warlock invocation or the way of shadow monk ability).

[Tanarii]

I can understand a skill check to move stealthily, but when did that turn in to an action? Not like I was Hiding (action), simply moving quietly (to whatever degree of success) - which is where skill checks come in to play.
That's what the Hide action is. Moving quietly to whatever degree of success, trying to avoid detection. If you weren't moving quietly but not particularly noisily, the DM might have made a Wisdom (perception) check for the enemy vs a fixed DC based on distance and sound in the environment. Or they might have had you heard automatically.

A better line of argument would have been that you were already hidden before combat, why do you need to spend the action now? And that still might not have flown with your DM. Many DMs get quite shirty about trying to use actions before combat.

[CorporateSlave]

Summary:

New DM, first session.

Fast forward to my turn later in the session. We are in first round combat. Nobody had attacked yet. Party is hiding in a corner behind some cover. Asked if I could move stealthily behind cover to improve view of the room. Stealth Skill check. Failed. Was told that took my action so could then not attack with bow or other.


I'd say that your DM failed by not telling you in advance it was an Action to do what you proposed. Perfectly fair to require you make a Stealth Check as an effective Hide Action for what you describe - you are Heavily Obscured behind cover, so eligible to Hide, but moving could cause sound. However 100% the DM should have made sure you understood that before burning your Action on it since you were already in combat.

[fallensavior]

Is this a hang over from a previous edition stealth rules? Or has DM interpreted my wanting to move quietly as a "hide" action of a sorts?

In previous editions, stealth would have generally been considered either a non-action or part of your move action whilst moving.

[Telok]

You do not move stealthily. You use an action to enter stealth mode, then you may move. Depending on the situation you may lose stealth by moving into a space where you are visible.

[fallensavior]

You do not move stealthily. You use an action to enter stealth mode, then you may move. Depending on the situation you may lose stealth by moving into a space where you are visible.

You can tell you're in stealth mode when your character crouches slightly.

[Ashrym]

You do not "use an action to go into stealth mode". There is a hide action that also uses stealth proficiency.

Whether or not a check is part of an action or not is based on how it's used and at the DM's discretion. Jumping uses movement regardless of needing an athletics check and perception doesn't take an action to not be surprised.

Moving quietly while out of sight is the premise of the surprise check at the beginning of combat and does not require actions to do so. There are rules that impact stealth checks but no action requirements just because stealth is involved.

The example in the OP looks like the DM was requiring the hide action as part of the events. I am not sure why that was specifically required but it reads to me like hiding -> moving -> hiding again / remaining hidden, which typically would require the hide action.

People need to remember the hide action uses the stealth skill proficiency, but the stealth skill proficiency is not the hide action and does not require the hide action. What the character is doing (hiding vs moving stealthily) is what makes the difference.

[Greywander]

Yeah, I'm going to reverse what I said earlier. In combat, an ability check by default requires an action (a DM can ignore this at their discretion), and the Hide action is the most relevant action here. But out of combat, there aren't really turns or rounds or actions. If you do something, it could take a while to complete (e.g. a spell with a casting time of 1 minute or longer), but anything requiring just an action should be assumed to complete more or less immediately. You don't take actions outside of combat, so when you roll initiative you always start with a fresh turn.

That said, if you're in the middle of something, the DM might rule that combat "interrupts" what you were doing, so you'll need to spend an action on your turn to finish what you were doing or else stop in the middle. Sneaking isn't really one of those things, though.

[Aimeryan]

Going to start from basics here. There is a TL;DR section at the end, if you like.

Ability checks may have a skill proficiency that can be used to enhance the check; this is denoted as Ability (Skill) check - i.e., Dexterity (Stealth) check. Ability checks can be passive or active.

Passive ability checks require no action and are always going on - they represent the default state of attention to what the ability check represents. Passive checks essentially use a roll of 10 to calculate the check. Whenever something is constantly occurring it is usually a passive check - for example, being aware of what is going on around you at any one time is a passive Wisdom (Perception) check.

Active ability checks usually require an action to do - they represent the extra effort and time taken over being passive. Active checks can result in lower check results than the corresponding passive check, which may not be intuitive - you can explain this as nerves, if you like (think singing in front of a crowd vs. in your bathroom). Active checks are used when something specific is attempted - for example, a nearby bush was suddenly disturbed, checking it out is an active Wisdom (Perception) check.


Hidden

Hidden is a state your character can be in; it represents the enemy not knowing where you are. Note, Invisible is not Hidden by default in 5e - enemies know exactly where an Invisible opponent is if they are not trying to be Hidden.

If your character is not already in the Hidden state then you may attempt to become Hidden by taking the Hide action. You can not Hide when you can currently be seen by an enemy (darkness, fog, invisibility, etc., can help here, or just running out of line of sight).

Once Hidden, for the enemy to remove your character's Hidden state they need to win a contested Wisdom (Perception) vs. Dexterity (Stealth) check - a tie results in no change. Alternatively, if you enter a situation where stealth would be impossible - say, approaching a guarded gate from the front in bright daylight with no other people around - you will also lose Hidden. Other ways to lose Hidden include attacking, which automatically gives away your location and removes Hidden.

Note: there are travel rules for travelling stealthily that result in travelling at a slower pace (i.e., when travelling between cities), however, movement (like in a dungeon) is not affected (there is some Rogue specific stuff, though). This means there is very little reason to not move stealthily whenever you can - i.e., you should probably be attempting to start any combat already Hidden. The DM can house-rule something in if they like - slower movement speed, whatever.


Already Hidden

If you are already Hidden, then you do not need to take the Hide action.

The enemy has a passive Wisdom (Perception) check and your character has a Passive Dexterity (Stealth) check. If you are trying to remain Hidden then a constant contested passive Dexterity (Stealth) vs. passive Wisdom (Perception) check is going on - if the enemy wins the contest if their check result is higher (a tie results in no change), which means you lose Hidden.

If something makes the enemy suspicious - perhaps they see an open door that should have been closed - then the DM may choose to have the enemy make an active Wisdom (Perception) vs. passive Dexterity (Stealth) check. The DM may allow your character to make it an active Dexterity (Stealth) check instead if your character is aware of the enemy now making the active Wisdom (Perception) check - perhaps the enemy said something that alerted your character to the change; 'Wait, that door is meant to be closed!'.

If your character does something that may specifically alert the enemy - maybe you need to open a squeaky door - then the DM may choose to have your character make an active Dexterity (Stealth) vs. passive Wisdom (Perception) check.

Note that passive checks are still subject to advantage/disadvantage the same as an active check, so even though you may currently beat the enemy in a passive vs passive contest that can always change.


Not Already Hidden

As mentioned, to become Hidden you need to take the Hide action, which prompts a contested active Dexterity (Stealth) vs. active Wisdom (Perception) check - you succeed if your check result is higher than the enemy's (a tie results in no change), which makes you Hidden. Note, if there are actually no enemies around that are aware of you then you automatically succeed, but the DM should still have you roll so that you don't have that information.

Also note, since you can't Hide while seen, the enemy has to be using other senses to in the Wisdom (Perception) check, which should probably give most enemies disadvantage - something to remember.

If you succeed on the active check and become Hidden, future checks will be passive unless you or the enemy takes the action to make an active check.


Situation described in OP / TL;DR

This sounds like the party were already Hidden; moving would not require an action to enter the Hidden state. The DM could have you or the enemies make active checks if something prompts them, otherwise they would be passive checks.

[Helliquin]

You do not "use an action to go into stealth mode". There is a hide action that also uses stealth proficiency.

Whether or not a check is part of an action or not is based on how it's used and at the DM's discretion. Jumping uses movement regardless of needing an athletics check and perception doesn't take an action to not be surprised.

Moving quietly while out of sight is the premise of the surprise check at the beginning of combat and does not require actions to do so. There are rules that impact stealth checks but no action requirements just because stealth is involved.

The example in the OP looks like the DM was requiring the hide action as part of the events. I am not sure why that was specifically required but it reads to me like hiding -> moving -> hiding again / remaining hidden, which typically would require the hide action.

People need to remember the hide action uses the stealth skill proficiency, but the stealth skill proficiency is not the hide action and does not require the hide action. What the character is doing (hiding vs moving stealthily) is what makes the difference.

And that was my point. We were hidden already, so no need to make a move action. Nor did I state I wanted to hide. I said I wanted to move quietly to get a view of the room to spot an enemy and shoot them. So DM was aware of my intentions, but was only after I failed the stealth check (fair enough to call for this... i could have had the group remain hidden or kicked a stone in to the room, this alerting enemy) was I told that moving quietly (and moving 10 ft at that) was an action.

Skill check, yes.
Action, no.

For those who say a skill check in combat uses an action, can you point to me where that rule is in the PHB? Nothing listed about skill checks as actions as far as I can see. Hide, disengage, dodge, dash, etc. actions.

Movement isn’t an action.

[Tanarii]

Moving quietly in combat is Hiding. If you mean "don't give away my position / that I'm there with my movement", that's exact what Hiding is. It requires a check and an action on the first round you do it, then persists until you make noise or reveal yourself.

The DM might rule the enemy can't hear you if you fail a check (or don't bother to hide) due to ambient noise or distance but that's a different matter.

The only question here is if you were already hidden before combat (sounds like it) and if the Dm allows that to persist without using your first action in combat (sounds like they did not). Alternately, the question might be if combat should have begun before you were detected, in which case it's just a failed ambush and you should have all rolled initiative at that point. From what I've gotten out of your description, that sounds like it would have been best.

[Helliquin]

Going to start from basics here. There is a TL;DR section at the end, if you like.

Ability checks may have a skill proficiency that can be used to enhance the check; this is denoted as Ability (Skill) check - i.e., Dexterity (Stealth) check. Ability checks can be passive or active.

Passive ability checks require no action and are always going on - they represent the default state of attention to what the ability check represents. Passive checks essentially use a roll of 10 to calculate the check. Whenever something is constantly occurring it is usually a passive check - for example, being aware of what is going on around you at any one time is a passive Wisdom (Perception) check.

Active ability checks usually require an action to do - they represent the extra effort and time taken over being passive. Active checks can result in lower check results than the corresponding passive check, which may not be intuitive - you can explain this as nerves, if you like (think singing in front of a crowd vs. in your bathroom). Active checks are used when something specific is attempted - for example, a nearby bush was suddenly disturbed, checking it out is an active Wisdom (Perception) check.


Hidden

Hidden is a state your character can be in; it represents the enemy not knowing where you are. Note, Invisible is not Hidden by default in 5e - enemies know exactly where an Invisible opponent is if they are not trying to be Hidden.

If your character is not already in the Hidden state then you may attempt to become Hidden by taking the Hide action. You can not Hide when you can currently be seen by an enemy (darkness, fog, invisibility, etc., can help here, or just running out of line of sight).

Once Hidden, for the enemy to remove your character's Hidden state they need to win a contested Wisdom (Perception) vs. Dexterity (Stealth) check - a tie results in no change. Alternatively, if you enter a situation where stealth would be impossible - say, approaching a guarded gate from the front in bright daylight with no other people around - you will also lose Hidden. Other ways to lose Hidden include attacking, which automatically gives away your location and removes Hidden.

Note: there are travel rules for travelling stealthily that result in travelling at a slower pace (i.e., when travelling between cities), however, movement (like in a dungeon) is not affected (there is some Rogue specific stuff, though). This means there is very little reason to not move stealthily whenever you can - i.e., you should probably be attempting to start any combat already Hidden. The DM can house-rule something in if they like - slower movement speed, whatever.


Already Hidden

If you are already Hidden, then you do not need to take the Hide action.

The enemy has a passive Wisdom (Perception) check and your character has a Passive Dexterity (Stealth) check. If you are trying to remain Hidden then a constant contested passive Dexterity (Stealth) vs. passive Wisdom (Perception) check is going on - if the enemy wins the contest if their check result is higher (a tie results in no change), which means you lose Hidden.

If something makes the enemy suspicious - perhaps they see an open door that should have been closed - then the DM may choose to have the enemy make an active Wisdom (Perception) vs. passive Dexterity (Stealth) check. The DM may allow your character to make it an active Dexterity (Stealth) check instead if your character is aware of the enemy now making the active Wisdom (Perception) check - perhaps the enemy said something that alerted your character to the change; 'Wait, that door is meant to be closed!'.

If your character does something that may specifically alert the enemy - maybe you need to open a squeaky door - then the DM may choose to have your character make an active Dexterity (Stealth) vs. passive Wisdom (Perception) check.

Note that passive checks are still subject to advantage/disadvantage the same as an active check, so even though you may currently beat the enemy in a passive vs passive contest that can always change.


Not Already Hidden

As mentioned, to become Hidden you need to take the Hide action, which prompts a contested active Dexterity (Stealth) vs. active Wisdom (Perception) check - you succeed if your check result is higher than the enemy's (a tie results in no change), which makes you Hidden. Note, if there are actually no enemies around that are aware of you then you automatically succeed, but the DM should still have you roll so that you don't have that information.

Also note, since you can't Hide while seen, the enemy has to be using other senses to in the Wisdom (Perception) check, which should probably give most enemies disadvantage - something to remember.

If you succeed on the active check and become Hidden, future checks will be passive unless you or the enemy takes the action to make an active check.


Situation described in OP / TL;DR

This sounds like the party were already Hidden; moving would not require an action to enter the Hidden state. The DM could have you or the enemies make active checks if something prompts them, otherwise they would be passive checks.

This was my train of thought. Thank you.

[RSP]

You don't take actions outside of combat, so when you roll initiative you always start with a fresh turn.

Not true, otherwise you couldn’t cast spells that have the 1 Action casting time outside of combat.

For the OP, I’d ask the DM to clarify how they think Stealth works. If they play it as “every round you try to Stealth, it’s an Action,” well now you know. If they also require a new roll each round, it’s probably worthless to Stealth, unless you’ve got Expertise and Reliable Talent.

[Ashrym]

Yeah, I'm going to reverse what I said earlier. In combat, an ability check by default requires an action (a DM can ignore this at their discretion), and the Hide action is the most relevant action here. But out of combat, there aren't really turns or rounds or actions. If you do something, it could take a while to complete (e.g. a spell with a casting time of 1 minute or longer), but anything requiring just an action should be assumed to complete more or less immediately. You don't take actions outside of combat, so when you roll initiative you always start with a fresh turn.

That said, if you're in the middle of something, the DM might rule that combat "interrupts" what you were doing, so you'll need to spend an action on your turn to finish what you were doing or else stop in the middle. Sneaking isn't really one of those things, though.

Well no, because initiative is an example of an ability check made as part of combat that doesn't require an action. So are some opposed checks.

The check in question involved hiding, which does take an action in combat. If the PC is already hidden I would determine if actions changed that condition before requiring another action to rehide or continue hiding.

I'm not sure where people got the idea a check requires an action, tbh.

[Greywander]

Not true, otherwise you couldn’t cast spells that have the 1 Action casting time outside of combat.
What I meant by this is that there's no need to keep track of actions. Of course you can still do things like cast spells with a casting time of one action, but doing so doesn't actually use an action because you're not in combat.

You could also have a tense, time-sensitive situation that wasn't combat where it might be useful to use the normal rounds and turn structure like in combat. For example, disarming a bomb, or escaping a collapsing temple. Any time timing is important, you can put the game into combat mode to keep track of who is doing what when and where. If timing isn't that important, there's no point keeping track of actions.


Well no, because initiative is an example of an ability check made as part of combat that doesn't require an action. So are some opposed checks.
Initiative is a specific example of an ability check that doesn't use any action. Specific beats general.


The check in question involved hiding, which does take an action in combat. If the PC is already hidden I would determine if actions changed that condition before requiring another action to rehide or continue hiding.
The key here is "in combat". Hiding outside of combat may or may not "use an action", but once initiative is rolled you get a fresh turn. Everything you were doing before combat started happens before you take your turn, ergo it doesn't take away any of your actions on that first turn. The closest you can get is the Surprised condition, which more or less boils down to the creature skipping their first turn because they don't know they're in combat yet.


I'm not sure where people got the idea a check requires an action, tbh.
Now that you mention it, I'm having trouble finding a reference to this in the rules. I mean, it's still a good general rule that helps cover a lot of things players might attempt during combat (e.g. "I push the dead tree onto the goblin"), but it's also good to remember that ability checks don't have to use an action.

As for where the idea is coming from, since I can't find a direct reference I'm going to guess it's a patchwork of different rules that all use actions for specific ability checks. Searching and Hiding for one. Grappling or shoving uses your action unless you have Extra Attack. Usually it takes an action to investigate an illusion. Thieves can make Sleight of Hand checks or use thieves' tools as a bonus action, implying it would normally take an action (Cunning Action seems to only let do things that normally require an action, see also AT rogues controlling their Mage Hand as a bonus action).

Of course, some discretion is required. You can't build a house in 6 seconds because it is "technically an ability check, and therefore requires an action to complete". Some things will definitely take a lot longer than a few seconds. Some things won't require an action at all. It's all up to DM fiat, but defaulting to an action for each ability check is a good rule of thumb if you're not sure.

[Tanarii]

This was my train of thought. Thank you.
There's a lot of not-rules mistakes in that post.

- Hidden is not a state. Nor a condition. Hiding is something you do. It takes an action in combat.

- Moving stealthily includes in dungeons, wilderness adventuring sites, or anytime you travel around.

- There is no such thing as an active check. The word passive in passive check means the player is passive and does not roll the dice. Rolling or not rolling the dice has nothing to do with if the character is active or passive.

- passive dexterity stealth checks are at the DMs discretion if the requirements are met for passive checks, but the rules for Hiding all reference rolling the check. Once you successfully hide you use the value you rolled until discovered or you stop hiding.

- There are no specific rules regarding what happens if you are hiding and the DM transitions you to combat. The surprise check in case of ambush strongly implies it replaces such a situation, but it is not explicit.

[Ashrym]

What I meant by this is that there's no need to keep track of actions. Of course you can still do things like cast spells with a casting time of one action, but doing so doesn't actually use an action because you're not in combat.

You could also have a tense, time-sensitive situation that wasn't combat where it might be useful to use the normal rounds and turn structure like in combat. For example, disarming a bomb, or escaping a collapsing temple. Any time timing is important, you can put the game into combat mode to keep track of who is doing what when and where. If timing isn't that important, there's no point keeping track of actions.


Initiative is a specific example of an ability check that doesn't use any action. Specific beats general.


The key here is "in combat". Hiding outside of combat may or may not "use an action", but once initiative is rolled you get a fresh turn. Everything you were doing before combat started happens before you take your turn, ergo it doesn't take away any of your actions on that first turn. The closest you can get is the Surprised condition, which more or less boils down to the creature skipping their first turn because they don't know they're in combat yet.


Now that you mention it, I'm having trouble finding a reference to this in the rules. I mean, it's still a good general rule that helps cover a lot of things players might attempt during combat (e.g. "I push the dead tree onto the goblin"), but it's also good to remember that ability checks don't have to use an action.

As for where the idea is coming from, since I can't find a direct reference I'm going to guess it's a patchwork of different rules that all use actions for specific ability checks. Searching and Hiding for one. Grappling or shoving uses your action unless you have Extra Attack. Usually it takes an action to investigate an illusion. Thieves can make Sleight of Hand checks or use thieves' tools as a bonus action, implying it would normally take an action (Cunning Action seems to only let do things that normally require an action, see also AT rogues controlling their Mage Hand as a bonus action).

Of course, some discretion is required. You can't build a house in 6 seconds because it is "technically an ability check, and therefore requires an action to complete". Some things will definitely take a lot longer than a few seconds. Some things won't require an action at all. It's all up to DM fiat, but defaulting to an action for each ability check is a good rule of thumb if you're not sure.



Grappling is another example. If a monster attempts a grapple against a PC the PC doesn't need and action (or even a reaction) for his or her own check.

Hiding in combat costs an action because under the list of combat actions we see the hide action, not because it also includes an ability check.

[RSP]

Whether a skill check requires an Action or not, outside of the ones specifically named (Hide and Search), is completely up to the DM. The relevant rule to help determine this:

“Improvising an Action
Your character can do things not covered by the actions in this chapter, such as breaking down doors, intimidating enemies, sensing weaknesses in magical defenses, or calling for a parley with a foe. The only limits to the actions you can attempt are your imagination and your character’s ability scores. See the descriptions of the ability scores in chapter 7 for inspiration as you improvise.
When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure.”

[tomjon]

A few thoughts on this.

1st
once you are hidden you stay hidden (and keep the same roll) until you do something to make yourself unhidden. Attacking, movement in the open or just stop hiding will do that. (Sage advice)

2nd
Becoming hidden takes an action (a rogue can use cunning action and hide as a bonus action. Maybe some others can, canÂ’t think of any now). Remember hidden can carry over from round to round. (Sage advice)

3rd
Raw you canÂ’t duck down. The only two positions are prone and standing. So a man 5 7 can not hide behind a minor illusion (itÂ’s only 5 foot tall).

4th
Invisibility is not hidden. It will give you the ability to hide, however until you hide your position is known. All attacks have disadvantage against you. (Sage advice)

5th
Attacking from a hidden position is with advantage.

6th
You can not get below your passive check. Your assumed to notice everything under that check before you roll an active check. Also unless your using variant rules you have 360 vision.

Just my .02

[Tanarii]

6th
You can not get below your passive check. Your assumed to notice everything under that check before you roll an active check. Also unless your using variant rules you have 360 vision.
RAW, if you take certain actions, you lose passive perception. Examples provided include Navigating, Foraging, Tracking, and Mapping. Basically anything that would take your full attention.

[Ashrym]

A few thoughts on this.

1st
once you are hidden you stay hidden (and keep the same roll) until you do something to make yourself unhidden. Attacking, movement in the open or just stop hiding will do that. (Sage advice)

2nd
Becoming hidden takes an action (a rogue can use cunning action and hide as a bonus action. Maybe some others can, canÂ’t think of any now). Remember hidden can carry over from round to round. (Sage advice)

3rd
Raw you canÂ’t duck down. The only two positions are prone and standing. So a man 5 7 can not hide behind a minor illusion (itÂ’s only 5 foot tall).

4th
Invisibility is not hidden. It will give you the ability to hide, however until you hide your position is known. All attacks have disadvantage against you. (Sage advice)

5th
Attacking from a hidden position is with advantage.

6th
You can not get below your passive check. Your assumed to notice everything under that check before you roll an active check. Also unless your using variant rules you have 360 vision.

Just my .02

I agree except for #'s 3 and 6. Squeeze rules cover 3 and 6 is eliminated by other activities. 6 also replaces the check instead of applying in addition to it -- taking the passive perception DC means the PC cannot roll higher than that score and not just lower. ;)

[Keravath]

I agree except for #'s 3 and 6. Squeeze rules cover 3 and 6 is eliminated by other activities. 6 also replaces the check instead of applying in addition to it -- taking the passive perception DC means the PC cannot roll higher than that score and not just lower. ;)

This is not correct. The DM uses the passive scores so the players do not roll dice. The DM can check the passive score and if that is insufficient and the character is taking a relevant action, the DM can ask the player to roll the die for an active check. The player does NOT choose. The DM decides which to apply depending on the circumstances and it is not exclusive. The DM can use both or only one or the other if it seems appropriate.

Searching for secret doors is one example. A character with a passive perception of 18 would always miss seeing a DC20 hidden door if the DM always uses their passive. Is that a realistic reflection of the ability of a character with a passive perception of 18? Not really. So, if the character doesn't automatically notice the hidden door, the DM can ask the player to make a roll (or make it themselves if they really want to) to determine whether the hidden door is noticed.

[Keravath]

Going to start from basics here. There is a TL;DR section at the end, if you like.

Ability checks may have a skill proficiency that can be used to enhance the check; this is denoted as Ability (Skill) check - i.e., Dexterity (Stealth) check. Ability checks can be passive or active.

Passive ability checks require no action and are always going on - they represent the default state of attention to what the ability check represents. Passive checks essentially use a roll of 10 to calculate the check. Whenever something is constantly occurring it is usually a passive check - for example, being aware of what is going on around you at any one time is a passive Wisdom (Perception) check.

Active ability checks usually require an action to do - they represent the extra effort and time taken over being passive. Active checks can result in lower check results than the corresponding passive check, which may not be intuitive - you can explain this as nerves, if you like (think singing in front of a crowd vs. in your bathroom). Active checks are used when something specific is attempted - for example, a nearby bush was suddenly disturbed, checking it out is an active Wisdom (Perception) check.



"Passive ability checks require no action and are always going on"
"Active ability checks usually require an action to do - they represent the extra effort and time taken over being passive."

I just want to point out that this is not correct and a popular misconception. Active and passive related to rolls have nothing to do with the character being passive or active. They have to do whether the PLAYER is being passive (not rolling dice) or ACTIVE (rolling dice).

Many folks seem to interpret a passive check as the character standing around doing nothing and that is incorrect.

PHB p175

"PASSIVE CHECKS
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."

Repeated tasks like searching for hidden doors requires the character to be actively searching in order for a passive check to apply. If they are strolling down a corridor, chatting to their buddies, passive checks do not apply because they are not repeatedly taking the required action to enable the check.

Here is an explicit example from Lost Mines of Phandelver p 7:

"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."

If the character is searching for traps, their passive score is checked first - otherwise the character needs to roll an active perception check if either their passive is too low or if they are not searching for traps.

So active and passive checks are both triggered by characters taking the appropriate actions AND active and passive refer to the PLAYER being active or passive in terms of rolling dice and NOT to the character actions within the context of the game.

The Observant feat is an example where passive perception and investigation are both increased. Is this supposed to make a character better at noticing things when they do nothing? No. It makes them better at noticing things when they are taking the appropriate action and the DM decides that a passive check can be used under the circumstances to see if the character notices or succeeds at whatever specific task is involved (perception, investigation, insight, lockpicking ... can all use passive skill checks if the task is repeated ...like taking an action to thoroughly search or investigate, like picking a lock where there is no consequence for failure, like listening to a long speech by an NPC and trying to figure out if it is generally truthful or not).

The travel rules also support this idea. Characters who are participating in an activity while traveling that takes their attention ... navigating, foraging, reading a book in the cart for example, don't use their passive perception to notice threats because they are not taking the appropriate action - e.g. keeping watch.

[Ashrym]

This is not correct. The DM uses the passive scores so the players do not roll dice. The DM can check the passive score and if that is insufficient and the character is taking a relevant action, the DM can ask the player to roll the die for an active check. The player does NOT choose. The DM decides which to apply depending on the circumstances and it is not exclusive. The DM can use both or only one or the other if it seems appropriate.

Searching for secret doors is one example. A character with a passive perception of 18 would always miss seeing a DC20 hidden door if the DM always uses their passive. Is that a realistic reflection of the ability of a character with a passive perception of 18? Not really. So, if the character doesn't automatically notice the hidden door, the DM can ask the player to make a roll (or make it themselves if they really want to) to determine whether the hidden door is noticed.

No, the passive check is a specific result. It cannot be higher or lower and the resolution for the check is complete.

The character using passive perception would always miss that secret door.

Passive checks are used for two reasons. One is to average checks along the way and the other is to not tip the player off in the first place. A PC taking an additional check to roll would also need a reason why the check is being made again and this is what takes time.

A PC can spend 10 times normal time for "assumed success" per the DMG and move in minutes instead of rounds too to assume that roll of a 20 on secret doors. That would deny perception on ambushing attackers as a disctraction activity.

What I was saying is a passive check DC is the assumed result for having rolled. Therefore it will not be higher anymore than it will be lower. The check was already made at that point.

[Aimeryan]

There's a lot of not-rules mistakes in that post.

- Hidden is not a state. Nor a condition. Hiding is something you do. It takes an action in combat.

- Moving stealthily includes in dungeons, wilderness adventuring sites, or anytime you travel around.

- There is no such thing as an active check. The word passive in passive check means the player is passive and does not roll the dice. Rolling or not rolling the dice has nothing to do with if the character is active or passive.

- passive dexterity stealth checks are at the DMs discretion if the requirements are met for passive checks, but the rules for Hiding all reference rolling the check. Once you successfully hide you use the value you rolled until discovered or you stop hiding.

- There are no specific rules regarding what happens if you are hiding and the DM transitions you to combat. The surprise check in case of ambush strongly implies it replaces such a situation, but it is not explicit.

- Hide action is an action, Hidden is a state that is derived from that action. The state is not explicitly named, however, it does exist because you can stop hiding. Call it what you like.

- This was not stated otherwise. Travelling and movement are different, however, and they do have different rules regarding stealth.

- There is a check that is not passive, whatever you wish to call it. The general consensus and pragmatic approach is to call it an active check. Passive checks are there to simulate constant checks that would be taking place - however, they are not just non-passive/active checks over and over again due to not having the RNG element. Non-passive/active checks are called out by the DM specifically when something non-constant occurs, which happens to make them pretty active. So, the passive/active check naming may not be technically related to the character being passive/active, however, it plays out that way.

- Page 175 of the PHB, under the 'Passive Checks' section:
The rules on hiding in the "Dexterity" section below rely on passive checks...
The green section on 'Hiding' on page 177 does say this:
When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
This seems to conflict, however, the second quote is regarding a creature that 'actively' searches - it leaves out mention of passive detection by future enemies. This leaves the first quote to cover that.

It also seems bizarre to do otherwise; you could have made the check weeks ago on a different continent. Indeed, a score or so of commoners could all make the check, go sneaking, find out which ones don't get caught, then go rob some of the hardest places to stealth because you know they already rolled well that one time a few weeks back. This is presuming the roll was hidden by the DM in the first place.

-With nothing written otherwise, the RAW on this would be for Hidden (or whatever you wish to call it) creatures to remain Hidden. The rules for Hidden being removed are pretty explicit; affiliated creatures entering combat is not one of them.

Basically, most of that is just naming issues. The one possible RAW interaction that could be interpreted differently is the passive Dexterity (Stealth) checks vs. a single forever-until-not-hidden non-passive check - and I still interpret that to only be against an actively searching enemy in order to not fail immediately to having a weak passive check.

[Aimeryan]

"Passive ability checks require no action and are always going on"
"Active ability checks usually require an action to do - they represent the extra effort and time taken over being passive."

I just want to point out that this is not correct and a popular misconception. Active and passive related to rolls have nothing to do with the character being passive or active. They have to do whether the PLAYER is being passive (not rolling dice) or ACTIVE (rolling dice)...[snip]

I disagree with this and the Passive Checks section on page 175 of the PHB describes situations of something being done repeatedly over and over again. A passive character is not a character doing nothing, it is a character in its default state. A guy strolling along is constantly applying perception checks, however, if he notices something suspicious he takes a more active role in that check - he'll focus his eyes and mind on the situation. The default strolling is represented by passive checks, the active suspicion is represented by a [non-passive] check (which is commonly referred to as an active check).

Yes, passive checks don't roll dice - because it would extremely tedious otherwise. Yes, active checks use dice - because WotC like players to roll dice and it is not infeasible to do so for non-constant situations. That is not the only difference between them and the Passive Checks section make that pretty clear.

[Telok]

TLDR; yet another stealth/skills thread where a bunch of reasonably intellegent people still can't agree on what the yext means. But its all "rulings not rules" so what's written in the books dosen't matter in play.

But seriously, does it seem to anyone else that every edition since 2000 gets worse at stealth/skills than the previous one?

[Tanarii]

But seriously, does it seem to anyone else that every edition since 2000 gets worse at stealth/skills than the previous one?
5e stealth is a godsend compared to 3e or 4e stealth. They learned from their mistakes quite effectively. What usually makes it not work very well is when people try to run it like those older editions.

"Stealth mode" in particular is one of the most egregious mistakes. Another is not understanding that passive scores don't mean the character is passive. Another in this thread is not understanding passive scores are a replacement for the normal check under specific circumstances (to avoid rolling every 5ft or to avoid giving away info) and not something that creates a floor for a rolled check. Even Crawford has made those last two mistakes.

[Keravath]

No, the passive check is a specific result. It cannot be higher or lower and the resolution for the check is complete.

The character using passive perception would always miss that secret door.

Passive checks are used for two reasons. One is to average checks along the way and the other is to not tip the player off in the first place. A PC taking an additional check to roll would also need a reason why the check is being made again and this is what takes time.

A PC can spend 10 times normal time for "assumed success" per the DMG and move in minutes instead of rounds too to assume that roll of a 20 on secret doors. That would deny perception on ambushing attackers as a disctraction activity.

What I was saying is a passive check DC is the assumed result for having rolled. Therefore it will not be higher anymore than it will be lower. The check was already made at that point.

I realize that is what you are saying and you are welcome to play it that way if you wish. i.e. The DM can use a passive check or an active check but not both. However, the rules don't say that. The DM can use a passive check if they want to under some circumstances but if the DM wishes to they can ask the player to roll a dice as well if the passive is not sufficient to pass the check. No where in the rules does it say this is an either/or choice. It is up to the DM to decide how they will resolve any particular skill interaction. You can choose to use your method in your game and others will choose to do differently in their games.

DMG p237

"MULTIPLE ABILITY CHECKS
Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task."

(1) If a passive check automatically fails, a DM is free to ask for an active check since the character is implicitly attempting the same task over and over.
(2) If the character has some reason to suspect that there is something to be found they can take 10 times longer to perform the task and if it is possible for them to succeed at the task then they will succeed.

Multiple attempts does not make an impossible task possible. However, a passive check does not substitute for all possible checks made when a task is done repeatedly, it represents the average result. By allowing a roll on the repeated task the DM checks to see if the task was above average (success in the task) or just at or below average (failure in the repeated task) unless the character takes actions to allow further checks.

The rules allow for multiple checks for the same task. If there is a DC 12 task and their passive is 18 they could still roll lower than 12 if an active check is used. Similarly, a DC20 task is automatically failed with a passive check while they could still roll higher with an active check. The DM is perfectly permitted to combine the use of both a passive and an active check in resolving a situation ... just as was shown in the cited example from Lost Mines of Phandelver.

[Ashrym]

I realize that is what you are saying and you are welcome to play it that way if you wish. i.e. The DM can use a passive check or an active check but not both. However, the rules don't say that. The DM can use a passive check if they want to under some circumstances but if the DM wishes to they can ask the player to roll a dice as well if the passive is not sufficient to pass the check. No where in the rules does it say this is an either/or choice. It is up to the DM to decide how they will resolve any particular skill interaction. You can choose to use your method in your game and others will choose to do differently in their games.

DMG p237

"MULTIPLE ABILITY CHECKS
Sometimes a character fails an ability check and wants to try again. In some cases, a character is free to do so; the only real cost is the time it takes. With enough attempts and enough time, a character should eventually succeed at the task. To speed things up, assume that a character spending ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete a task automatically succeeds at that task."

(1) If a passive check automatically fails, a DM is free to ask for an active check since the character is implicitly attempting the same task over and over.
(2) If the character has some reason to suspect that there is something to be found they can take 10 times longer to perform the task and if it is possible for them to succeed at the task then they will succeed.

Multiple attempts does not make an impossible task possible. However, a passive check does not substitute for all possible checks made when a task is done repeatedly, it represents the average result. By allowing a roll on the repeated task the DM checks to see if the task was above average (success in the task) or just at or below average (failure in the repeated task) unless the character takes actions to allow further checks.

The rules allow for multiple checks for the same task. If there is a DC 12 task and their passive is 18 they could still roll lower than 12 if an active check is used. Similarly, a DC20 task is automatically failed with a passive check while they could still roll higher with an active check. The DM is perfectly permitted to combine the use of both a passive and an active check in resolving a situation ... just as was shown in the cited example from Lost Mines of Phandelver.

That's a second check, not the same check. All you did was quote something I already referenced.

"(1) If a passive check automatically fails, a DM is free to ask for an active check since the character is implicitly attempting the same task over and over. "

I bolded the part you seem to have glossed over. The PC needs to be implicitly repeating the task to get the roll. That's not happening as the PC is walking down the corridor until the PC is investing the time to do so in some way.

[Tanarii]

That's a second check, not the same check. All you did was quote something I already referenced.

"(1) If a passive check automatically fails, a DM is free to ask for an active check since the character is implicitly attempting the same task over and over. "

I bolded the part you seem to have glossed over. The PC needs to be implicitly repeating the task to get the roll. That's not happening as the PC is walking down the corridor until the PC is investing the time to do so in some way.
The breakdown in combat clearly illustrates your point.

1) When an enemy takes the Hide action, it is against passive perception. This is a first check.
PCs that know the enemy was just there can choose to try and find them by taking the Search action. This is a second check.

This situation is also the one that commonly causes folks to make the mistaken assumption that passive means passive on the part of the PC, and 'actively looking' means you roll a check.

Out of combat, there typically is no real equivalent. Because the check is always secret. The scenarios are:
DM: you scout at slow speed unless you tell me otherwise, using full stealth and passive perception and investigation. Roll stealth I'll tell you when a reroll is needed. I'm assuming you're checking the ceiling, floor, walls, doors, and statues etc in hallways with passive perception initially and passive investigation as you get close. In rooms you do a cursory examination visually with perception then tell me if you're going to quickly search the room.
Some time later:

2) PC: you know what, I want to take an extra minute to check this door again.
DM: okay, that's also a passive check, since you can't know the result of the roll.

3) PC: you know what, I want to take as much time as it takes to check this door again.
DM: okay, that's 10 minutes. You're confident there isn't a trap. *rolls wandering monster check*

I suppose it could be:
4) PC: I JUST saw them hide it here somewhere. I know it is here somewhere I'm just not sure exactly where. I take an extra minute to look for it again.
DM: okay takes one minute and roll a wisdom (perception check)

[Desamir]

So a man 5 7 can not hide behind a minor illusion (itÂ’s only 5 foot tall).

A minor illusion isn't 5 feet tall, it is "no larger than 5-foot cube." A 7-foot tall door fits within a 5-foot cube, for example. You can hide behind a minor illusion provided you place it properly.

[Tanarii]

A 7-foot tall door fits within a 5-foot cube, for example.Good luck with that. A door is what, 3ft wide at the top and bottom? That doesn't fit in a cube no matter how you rotate it.

[Desamir]

Good luck with that. A door is what, 3ft wide at the top and bottom? That doesn't fit in a cube no matter how you rotate it.

Sure it does. Place the base of the door along one edge and the top of the door along the opposite edge. The sides of the door run along the diagonals of two of the faces of the cube. Each of those diagonals is slightly over 7 feet in length.

[Zalabim]

Sure it does. Place the base of the door along one edge and the top of the door along the opposite edge. The sides of the door run along the diagonals of two of the faces of the cube. Each of those diagonals is slightly over 7 feet in length.

With less than half an inch to spare on each side. I believe that gives you a flat panel 7' tall, 5' wide, 10/16" thick, and with a ~1/2" gap at the bottom. A wide, modern-style door.

[Tanarii]

Sure it does. Place the base of the door along one edge and the top of the door along the opposite edge. The sides of the door run along the diagonals of two of the faces of the cube. Each of those diagonals is slightly over 7 feet in length.clearly this is why I almost failed geometry in HS