Balance this terrible idea

[Warchon]

Terrible Character Idea:

Generic Party has the big final showdown with Epic Lich #339. They win the day, but during the battle the lich manages to Animate and Awaken Bob's skeleton without killing Bob.

Turns out, Bones isn't a bad guy and is willing to get along with Bob. Even takes a spellcaster level or gets spellstitched so he can cast Gentle Repose in an emergency--and then step in and take over the fight while Bob is busy being dead.

(I figure spellcaster in fighter, not vice versa--nobody's really surprised when the dead wizard gets back up and suddenly knows kung fu, wizards just do that kind of ****.
But when the dead Barbarian spontaneously stands up and starts slinging lightning nobody knows wtf to do.)

So..how the hell would you even begin to balance this? First instinct is to give Bones only 1/4 xp unless Bob is dead at the time (he's still watching after all) and make him blow a feat.
Would make Bones a surprise but not a game changer. There's a significant oppirtunity cost too in Bob not being able to rely on Cure spells without the risk of killing his "partner." He'll likely have to spend more feats and significant gold getting non-standard healing options.
Maybe even throw in 1/2 natural hp recovery rate--having an undead skeletal system probably plays hell with your circulatory system.

Thoughts?

If anyone knows how this could be RAW-legal, that's bonus points, but mostly I'm just curious what your approach would be to trying to make this balanced.

[aimlessPolymath]

Fundamentally, it seems like Bones isn't a character that does anything until you(the barbarian) is already dead. Bones is moderate downside (1/2 natural healing seems like a fair cost; -2 Con is another option) but I wouldn't worry about docking xp or a feat or whatever for something that boils down to a magic item of Animate Dead on your corpse.

[JNAProductions]

What system is this for?

Also, that idea is hilarious and awesome. Kudos to you for thinking of it, even if you don't know how to make the mechanics work!

[Segev]

It sounds like this is for 3e D&D, given the referencing of spellstitching and such.

Sadly, getting spellstitched when you're inside Bob isn't realy feasible for Bones. (Imagine explaining to Bob that you're going to need to peel open his flesh and muscle to get to the bone at literally every point of his body. I'm not sure anybody could survive that outside of a fantasy campaign, and I'm not sure a DM would agree to allow it even in one.) However, learning to be a spellcaster is a possibility! Hillarious that the skeleton Awakened smarter or wiser or more charismatic than Bob.

If Bob has the Charisma to support a cohort of maximum level (i.e. his minus 2), I'd just have Bob take Leadership and make Bones his cohort. If not, but Bones does...have Bones become the PC and Bob the Cohort? It's a little weird, but would work.

The trade-off is that the cohort is always around, but that you have to pick who gets the actions. Bob can relax and let Bones take the wheel, or Bones can relax and let Bob take the wheel. If they argue and fight, it gets messy, but we've established that they're cooperative with each other. (If Bob's a burly barbarian and Bones got his awakened stats focused on a mental score, then Bob probably wins the strength tests anyway if they struggle for dominance.)

So now, tireless Bones takes his 8-hour quiet time by just relaxing and being a normal skeleton. If he's a wizard, maybe he insists on an hour to study his spellbook at a convenient time, but he also takes watch while Bob sleeps. Bones being a sorcerer or cleric makes it easier to prepare spells/recover spell slots; he can probably do that while doing the relaxing thing rather than needing Bob's cooperation.

[SpawnOfMorbo]

It sounds like this is for 3e D&D, given the referencing of spellstitching and such.

Sadly, getting spellstitched when you're inside Bob isn't realy feasible for Bones. (Imagine explaining to Bob that you're going to need to peel open his flesh and muscle to get to the bone at literally every point of his body. I'm not sure anybody could survive that outside of a fantasy campaign, and I'm not sure a DM would agree to allow it even in one.)

"Sounds metal, let's do this!" - Bob the Barbarian (who happens to sound like Nathan Explosion)

[DracoDei]

"Sounds metal, let's do this!" - Bob the Barbarian (who happens to sound like Nathan Explosion)
Or, given the initial idea that Bob is dead often enough that ONLY doing anything when Bob is dead makes Bones still useful:
Bones just waited until the next inevitable fatality to get the Spellstitching done.

There was actually a homebrew on these forums of a Planar Disease or something that had something very like this effect.
*Googles*
Ah, HERE (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?129929-Findelwald-s-Diseases-of-the-Planes) we go. Post #25 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=15525652&postcount=25) more specifically.

It even includes rules for when and how the skeleton becomes intelligent, and mentions that it can be Diplomacy-ed into cooperation.

One question would be how wearing a flesh-suit affects Bone's Dex, Hit-points, and/or AC compared to a normal skeleton. Maybe give Bones a very poor hitpoint roll: No lack of structural integrity, since Bob has excellent bones, but rather the equivalent of growing up in a toxic environment. All that nasty life energy surrounding him impaired the negative energy that animates him. This would explain why they didn't just cut him out the next time Bob needed a Resurrection rather than just a Raise Dead and thus recreating a new skeleton wouldn't be a problem. This, of course, assumes that the party has reasonable access to Resurrection.

...or maybe being inside of Bob just "feels like home" to Bones. You could even give Bones a personality, or otherwise make reference to, a stereotypical socially stunted individual still living with his parents.

Perhaps the necromantic influence spreads, at least until Bob is returned to life, granting Bones additional attack types or effects on his natural attacks. It could even be picked each time Bob dies, either by the GM, Bob/Bones player, or random roll(s) on a table created for the purpose.

There are two ways to simulate this.

I highly recommend using my own material. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?278418-(Creature)-(Spell)-Organ-Undead-Nightmares-of-Anatomy-(P-E-A-C-H-))

But Libris Mortis has rules for undead grafts on pages 79 to 80. Note that they seem very overpriced to me at first glance, and I SEEM to recall others saying they were a bit lack-luster.

EDIT: Obviously the two sources could be mix-and-matched, and/or entirely new options created. Come to that SOMEONE has to have brewed up some new necromantic grafts around here at some point.

[Segev]

It's worth noting that the RAW say things like creatures animated as undead can't be resurrected without destroying the undead. It's an open question whether Bones counts as Bob-as-an-undead, but I could see people arguing it very convincingly. obviously, rule of cool steps in to say, "We want this to happen," so we need to either waive this rule or come up with a work-around.

[Warchon]

Love this discussion. The idea of spellstitching while Bob is dead is one I hadn't thought of and sews up that difficulty quite nicely.
Giving Bones actions when the Barbarian relaxes is a neat touch, but I worry that it might make him too versatile...he's basically a fast-cycling Binder at that point.

[Segev]

Love this discussion. The idea of spellstitching while Bob is dead is one I hadn't thought of and sews up that difficulty quite nicely.
Giving Bones actions when the Barbarian relaxes is a neat touch, but I worry that it might make him too versatile...he's basically a fast-cycling Binder at that point.

If you use cohort mechanics to pay for Bones, you are actually short-changing them on action economy by doing that. The trade-off that Bones basically is untargetable while Bob lives is likely enough (if not more than enough) compensation, though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

First off, this idea is brilliant and I love it. Kind of reminds me of Doythaban from Schlock Mercenary (a big dumb bruiser of a mercenary who winds up sharing control of his body with a superintelligent AI in his spine).

Secondly, you might look at the Dvati race for inspiration? That's "one character with two bodies" as opposed to Bob-Bones' "two characters with one body," but it could be a good starting point.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Mechanically, the "Skeleton is inert until Bob dies, at which point it takes over" is roughly equivalent to a Contingent Revivify, which is basically 1 feat or several spells, plus some XP and 1,000 GP, so that's a starting point. +1LA seems like a good start.

For a RAW example of something along those lines, though maybe not what you're going for: Symbitoic Creature (Savage Species 131). Calling it "balanced" is generous, but it's a starting point. I do like the idea of giving Bob's Skeleton it's own stats, then letting it's scores have some influence. (Good RP out of Bob the Fighter going to do something because his skeleton tells him it's a good idea even though he doesn't understand it).

[Warchon]

rom my tabletop group:

Just... imagine the day they have an argument. "I'm gonna take a walk." "You can't do that, Bones." "Fuggin' watch me."


Good RP out of Bob the Fighter going to do something because his skeleton tells him it's a good idea even though he doesn't understand it.

"Bob, what are you doing."
"Trying the scale the parapet."
"Uh. Okay. We can see that. Why?"
"I DON'T KNOW."