Mold Earth Will Absolutely Wreck Your Combat Encounters (And That's a Good Thing)

[Sparky McDibben]

Storytime!

Last night, I've got a 14th level party waiting to settle up some business with the half-orc druidess' dad. Said dad is leading a Hail Mary flanking maneuver through the druidess' forest and over a river. So said druidess has a couple weeks to prepare, and thinks, "Hey, some pit traps could come in handy!" So she's going to dig 200' pit traps, 10' across, using mold earth. Some stuff happens, and when her dad shows up with about 10,000 XP worth of dudes, the pits suddenly become a huge factor and take about half the orcs out of play. I just used average damage, and 70 hp worth of falling damage ain't nuttin' to f*** with, y'know?

So, why do I say this is a good thing? Well, that bit of the story where "some stuff happens" was actually a very tense infiltration of the orc camp, coupled with interrogation of a captured orc, a creative detect thoughts application, and an intense role-play session between the disguised druidess and her dad. And that was just to find out the route the orcs were approaching, so they knew where to put the pits. That was all they were after, and it gave the rogue and the bard a chance to develop additional subplots, and the druidess some awesome roleplay with her dad. Once the rest of the orcs figured out what was up, the pits took on a secondary aspect as every trick in the book got brought out to kick, shove, grapple, dominate, and dissonant whisper people into the pits came into play, including the druidess' dad sacrificing himself to try to drag her down in the pits. It didn't work out for him because earth elemental form is really hard to kill.

Now obviously, your mileage will vary. Obviously this doesn't happen if you're in an urban environment (unless you're in a park!), it doesn't work if you don't have the setup time, and it doesn't work if your DM gets Precious with their encounter design. But letting your players manipulate the environment with just a cantrip is hugely powerful in letting them create and use terrain to their advantage. It makes them more invested, they get to feel clever, and their victories feel earned. Most importantly, they feel like they were the authors of their success. It's pretty cool.

Also, caveat. I figured those pits would be pretty unstable, so I made it a 1-in-6 chance that anyone falling into the pit might trigger a small collapse, causing earth to flow into the pit, reducing the depth by 1d6 x 10 feet. The druidess thought that was fair, but she never asked where the earth was coming from. I figured the ground around the edge of the pit would destabilize, requiring Acrobatics checks as the pit got shorter, but broader. Unfortunately, I never rolled any 1's on that, so no dice. Ah well. Better luck next time!

[Mr Adventurer]

How did she get the earth out of the holes when they were more than 5 or 10 feet deep?

[LudicSavant]

Most importantly, they feel like they were the authors of their success.

This is such an important factor!

[Sparky McDibben]

How did she get the earth out of the holes when they were more than 5 or 10 feet deep?

I ruled she stair-stepped it, then put the dirt back. The point is, in the time available, she could have accomplished her goal, not that the player has to sit down and tell me exactly how. That's something I would do only if there was a serious time crunch. She had two weeks, and the cantrip takes like 6 seconds to cast. Experimentation was distinctly possible. :)

[Misterwhisper]

1. You can only have 2 instances of the excavation at once.

2. You also couldn’t stair step it past 10 feet.

3. Your used average damage was more than the average damage of falling 200 feet which is the height of max falling damage dice.

4. Essentially none of what you described is possible in the slightest but you let it go because it was magic.

[Tanarii]

Wouldn't it also require a trench 195' long? You could back-fill after of course, but if you're already disguising a pit why not just keep the entire trench?

The 10ft wide isn't an issue, you just work it from the first trench to widen it. But again, if you're trenching, make it 5ft. Easier to disguise.

This assumes the DM doesn't rule you hit solid rock or it collapses (if all loose earth) long before you get to 200' deep. That seems like overkill.

[Segev]

1. You can only have 2 instances of the excavation at once.The excavation is an instantaneous effect. It's the coloration and the drawings, and the difficult/not-difficult terrain effects that have a duration and thus are the limited ones.


2. You also couldn’t stair step it past 10 feet.Not sure why not.

Dig your initial five-foot-deep pit.
Dig one more five-foot-deep pit to the side of it.
Dig your initial pit another five feet deeper, shoving the excavated dirt into the side-pit (effectively filling it in). You now have a 10-foot-deep pit.
Re-excavate the side pit, and excavate a neighboring pit, both five feet deep.
Excavate the initial side pit down to 10 feet deep, same as your initial pit, shoveling the dirt into the neighboring pit (effectively filling it).
Excavate your 10-foot-deep pit to 15 feet deep, putting the dirt into the now-10-feet-deep side pit. You now have a 15-foot-deep pit stair-stepped next to a 10-foot-deep pit.
Excavate a stair-step down until your side-pit is again level (at 15 feet deep) with your primary pit.
Excavate the primary pit to 20 feet deep (creating a stair-step up to 15 feet deep, and however many stairs you've left as you pull dirt out).
Repeat until you have a stair-step down to your desired depth.
Fill in all but the primary pit.

The issue you might run into is the fact that this is "loose earth," so there's no guarantee it stays excavated. It can fill in from the side-pressure. You'd need something to support the walls.

[Bobthewizard]

I don't think she could have dug very many 10'x10'x200' deep holes in that time.

Without moving the dirt out, just to make a 200' deep 5' hole is 40 castings. (200'/5 = 40)

So to make the stair step is 40+39+38 etc. = 820 castings

Then to move the dirt out of the main hole takes 40 castings for the last 5' and so forth, so 40+39+38 etc.
For the next lowest step it's 39+38+37 etc.
Then keep going for each step = 11,480

Then to clear the 10' x 10' section of the main hole is an additional 820 x 3 (for the other 3 5' cubes to make a 10' square) = 2460

So 13,940 castings. At 6 seconds each equals 23 hours per hole. This doesn't include having to move dirt out of the way on the surface or putting the dirt back too cover the holes.

Yes. I'm a nerd. And I could be wrong.

So here's the story problem for everyone. How many castings does it take to make a 200' deep 10'x10' hole?

[Sparky McDibben]

3. Your used average damage was more than the average damage of falling 200 feet which is the height of max falling damage dice.

Can you give me the math on this? I thought falling damage was 1d6 per 10 feet falling, hence 20d6. A d6 has an expected value of 3.5, so 20 x 3.5 = 70. What did I miss?

[Sparky McDibben]

The issue you might run into is the fact that this is "loose earth," so there's no guarantee it stays excavated. It can fill in from the side-pressure. You'd need something to support the walls.

Yep, hence the 1-in-6 chance of the walls collapsing. We flavored this as struts she had constructed across the trench.


How many castings does it take to make a 200' deep 10'x10' hole?

No idea - let me know what you think is reasonable. Also, the pit was about 60 feet long, and there were two characters with mold earth (the rogue had it, too).

[Segev]

How many castings does it take to make a 200' deep 10'x10' hole?"Let's ask Mr. Xorn."

"One, t-who! three!" *bites a hole in the ground* "...three."


Yep, hence the 1-in-6 chance of the walls collapsing. We flavored this as struts she had constructed across the trench.



No idea - let me know what you think is reasonable. Also, the pit was about 60 feet wide, and there were two characters with mold earth (the rogue had it, too).

I'm having trouble picturing this. When you say the pit was 60 feet wide, do you mean it was actually 10 feet wide by 60 feet long by 200 feet deep?

Also, when was the 1-in-6 chance checked? Once? Or every time they dug out a new depth?

[Keravath]

Cool story :)

Doing it for rule of cool if fine ... but I think there are some problems with it.

"You choose a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:
. lf you target an area of loose earth, you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t involve enough force to cause damage."

1) A 10'x10'x200' pit is 20,000 cubic feet of earth. This earth has to go somewhere since all Move Earth does is MOVE it.

If you target "loose earth" you can excavate it and move it up to 5' along the ground. This could be interpreted in a lot of ways but lets assume the most generous - there is no depth limitation on mold earth so you can cast it on earth that is underground which then moves the earth up 100' to the surface and then up to 5' along the ground. I don't think that is the idea but that is the closest I could come up with in terms of what the spell states. However, this means that you end up with piles of earth 200' tall surrounding your hole and that dirt has to go somewhere.

2) Mold earth only has a range of 30' so you would need to be 170' below ground to dig the last 30' of the hole. I also don't think the spell can move the dirt 170' to the surface since it is outside the 30' range but that would be a DM call.

3) Most places you dig you will hit rock before 200'. Mold earth only works on "loose earth". Anything at even a small depth will be compacted and won't be "loose earth". If you have ever dug a bed in a garden you probably know what I mean. It is generous in the real world to consider even the first 5' loose earth in some places.

4) Even in places where you don't hit a layer of rock there will often be large rocks which the spell presumably won't move.

5) So constructing even one of these 10'x10'x200', 20,000 cubic foot holes, would be very challenging and likely not possible with mold earth.

---

On the usage front, a pit trap works when creatures don't know to look for them and stumble on them by accident or if the creatures have been forced into a panicked flight and don't pay attention. Even then, as soon as someone falls in one, the rest are going to stop, pull out staves and proceed much more cautiously as they check for more pits. It is a type of trap that only works once or twice. It is most effective at slowing movement and is only worthwhile if the opponents have forces able to take advantage of that slowed movement. (e.g. ranks of archers firing at the creatures as they try to navigate past the pits). Otherwise, all that happens is that the attacking creatures slow down. They won't take significant losses to the traps since it isn't a zombie army that marches forward while 1/2 of them drop into pits.

---

So, the scenario imagery is cool ..

... but mold earth couldn't build the pits
... mold earth couldn't hide the 20,000 cubic feat of earth excavated from one pit never mind dozens or hundreds
... once the orcs find one or two, they will be slower but won't lose many troops

.. as a result, it wouldn't really work as described. It just sounds cool.


P.S. Someone above did a good job trying to calculate how many castings of mold earth would be required assuming you can only move the earth 5' along the ground (which would mean within 5' of where it is dug out. Segev was also describing a method of "drilling down" that sounded pretty good. However as soon as the bottom is at 20' you need to dig out a new 5' cube at the surface to move the dirt up. However, this scenario did not include casting mold earth to move the exacavated dirt away from the excavation and spread it around. The dirt from a single pit will cover an area on the surface 200'x100'x1'. It will bury everything, all the undergrowth within 50' to 100' will be covered with a foot of dirt. This will be pretty obvious unless you have a bunch of folks with the plant growth spell that could cause plants to grow up through the 1' deep dirt and provide some ground cover. Even then the dirt will be noticeably loose so creatures could be suspicious.

P.P.S. The 6th level Move Earth spell isn't even as remotely powerful as mold earth if you can dig 200'x10'x10' deep pits with just the cantrip.

P.P.P.S. Let's follow up on how many castings it takes to get earth to the surface - we will worry about surface distribution next.

The first 5' takes one casting. To do the next one you dig out one at five feet. dig the other to 10' moving it up to five feet and then casting mold earth again to remove it from the pit. So the first takes 1, the second 3, the third 6, the fourth 10 and so on. The 40th - the first square at 200' takes 780 castings to get to the surface.

This is 11,480 castings. Unfortunately, if you try to dig a pit it turns out to be 30'x30' with a four additional 5' squares dug out .. this configuration only has room for 30x5' cubes of earth around the edges and you have excavated 820 cubes of earth to get the pit down to 200' at its deepest (note that the rest of the center of the pit is at 200', 195',190' and 185'. Digging the entire bottom to at least 200' requires substantially more digging. If instead of digging a pit, you dig a trench, you have room for about 400 cubes in the first row next to the trench and 400 more in the second row .... so add 400 more castings to move the dirt out from the first row to make room for the rest.

However, now you have to back fill the hole. The shaft of interest is 20x4 -3 or 77 cubes of earth. Backfilling takes the same process from the edge of the trench except in reverse. This means you need to backfill about 743 cubes to fill all but the central shaft which is all of the pit/trench from 180' down to the surface. This takes the same number of castings as digging a 180' deep hole. This takes 8436 castings. Each of the remaining 77 cubes on the surface requires 5 castings to spread the earth to a 1' depth. This is 385 more castings (assuming the 200' trench configuration).

So digging one pit, assuming the earth is "loose" all the way to 200' would take 11480+8436+385 castings and leaves a 200' long by about 50' wide x 1' deep area of disturbed earth. This is about 34 hours of casting mold earth every 6 seconds. Movement required could be accommodated with the allowed 30' of movement /round. Luckily, mold earth does not have a verbal component, however, trying to move your hands in exactly the same way for 34 hours of continuous casting is likely not going to work since the hands and muscles will cramp.

Factor in eating, sleeping and other considerations, and assuming that you have someone to cast plant growth to hide the disturbed earth then you might be able to dig such a pit about once every two to three days.

[Segev]

I think "loose earth" includes compacted earth for purposes of this spell. Mostly, it doesn't excavate stone. Maybe not; it's a DM call, but I think the largely-agreed-upon advice is, "If you can jam a shovel into it, it's loose enough." Hard-pack permafrost, maybe not. But even dense, packed clay can be shoveled.

[Sparky McDibben]

I'm having trouble picturing this. When you say the pit was 60 feet wide, do you mean it was actually 10 feet wide by 60 feet long by 200 feet deep?

Also, when was the 1-in-6 chance checked? Once? Or every time they dug out a new depth?

Sorry, I mistyped that, corrected in edit. I meant to say 60 feet long. The 1-in-6 was rolled every time someone fell in, but damned if I didn't roll every number except 1.


... but mold earth couldn't build the pits
... mold earth couldn't hide the 20,000 cubic feat of earth excavated from one pit never mind dozens or hundreds
... once the orcs find one or two, they will be slower but won't lose many troops

.. as a result, it wouldn't really work as described. It just sounds cool.

Respectfully, this kind of bothers me, because it feels like you're makes some assumptions here. One, I'm the DM, and I ruled mold earth could build the pits. Ergo, at my table, mold earth could build the pits. If you rule differently, that's OK, because that's your table, your players, and your priorities of play. Two, you're assuming that they cared about hiding the dirt at all - they built a whole bunch of friggin earthworks behind the trench and disguised it as a hill with hallucinatory terrain. Three, you're assuming the orcs are rational, optimized actors. I played these guys as all kinds of friggin nuts (due to story considerations). So some of them fell in, but others tried jumping the pit (they really hate this druidess).

I get it, for some players this might break immersion. I personally don't care - the point is that the heroes got to feel freaking awesome, and they knew that awesomeness was due to their plan, not the bad guys. It's OK to let the heroes feel cool on their terms, y'all. Now, some of you seem concerned that players could use a cantrip to trample all over the world. That's a totally valid concern. It's also trivially easy to solve. The orcs might change their plans (like these orcs did), they might start figuring out the heroes like using pit traps and moving slowly (or, more diabolically, just gathering a bunch of people up in a group and moving them forward as a combination human shield/trap detector), they might have someone toss an augury up before they decide to engage, etc.

The point of the conversation here is that new, fun, and emergent lines of play come out of working with your players and giving them some leeway on their tools. The mechanical discussion, frankly, bores me.

[Segev]

Not to criticize, but if the pit was only 10 feet wide, how'd any of them FAIL to jump it if they could see it was there? Jumping rules in 5e are such that you can automatically long jump your Strength in feet if you have a running start (which I'm sure they did).

Personally, if they had hallucinatory terrain, I'd have made the pit snakey so that it appears at different distances from the base of the "hill," and then used the illusion to also cover the pit with a mix of seemingly-flat ground and dense foliage.

Or a fog cloud.

Again, glad you guys had fun, and sorry for the "you might've been doing it wrong" critique. More giving advice for next time, especially since the players might find themselves facing something where they want to jump across a 10 foot gap in the future, and most PCs will be able to make that.

[Boci]

Not to criticize, but if the pit was only 10 feet wide, how'd any of them FAIL to jump it if they could see it was there? Jumping rules in 5e are such that you can automatically long jump your Strength in feet if you have a running start (which I'm sure they did).

They might not have. How much is a running start? It doesn't sound like the orcs were marking rank and fill, but they could have been bunched up enough that when the first fell in, those immeidatly behind them were too close to get a running start, and so had to roll.

[Segev]

They might not have. How much is a running start? It doesn't sound like the orcs were marking rank and fill, but they could have been bunched up enough that when the first fell in, those immeidatly behind them were too close to get a running start, and so had to roll.

Could be! I was picturing a charging horde, myself, but that doesn't mean that's what they were. And with less than 20 strength, they would have less than 10 feet auto-jump.

I really wish there were guidelines for how difficult it is to jump further than your automatic distance. If you need an extra 3, 5, or 10 feet, what are the DCs?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I don't think Mold Earth will move earth more than 60 feet at most (as it's a 30 foot radius sphere centered on you). However, that doesn't mean you couldn't dig a 200 foot pit with it, you'd just have to use extra castings. I do wonder what you did with all this earth you dug out of the ground (my suggestion, build an earthen wall to hide behind).

However, while a cute and clever use of the spell, it wouldn't 'wreck my combat encounters' as I usually don't warn my players a week ahead of time that they're going to be attacked at a certain time and place.

Still, it's a cool thing to do once and let the players feel really smart.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't think Mold Earth will move earth more than 60 feet at most (as it's a 30 foot radius sphere centered on you).

Mold Earth will move a 5' cube of earth up to 5 feet per casting.


I think "loose earth" includes compacted earth for purposes of this spell.

I mean, I understand what you want, but you're literally saying the spell works on the opposite of what it says it does, 'loose' vs 'compacted'.

...

For what it's worth (zero), in a game I would run, earthworks of this magnitude would need much higher level magic and/or much more skilled labour.

[Segev]

Mold Earth will move a 5' cube of earth up to 5 feet per casting.



I mean, I understand what you want, but you're literally saying the spell works on the opposite of what it says it does, 'loose' vs 'compacted'.I also get what you're saying, but I have to ask where the dividing line is. Does it have to be sand? Tilled, airy loam? Or can it be my front yard, which is grass-(or at least weed-)covered and woudn't blow away in even a heavy wind.

Because if it can't be my front yard, this goes from a highly useful spell to a spell that's next to useless unless you like drawing funny pictures in stone walls. The prevalence of dirt as loose as gardening loam or dry sand is pretty lacking in most adventuring climes, and anything that loose wouldn't maintain a 5-foot-deep pit under ANY circumstances.



For what it's worth (zero), in a game I would run, earthworks of this magnitude would need much higher level magic and/or much more skilled labour.

I mean, that's fair; most people I game with would require a LOT of extra work and engineering going into maintaining the pit walls at these depths. For all I believe it can be done on dirt that's tight enough to maintain a five foot deep pit, I don't think it'll work on the practically-stone you'd need to hold the sides from sloughing inwards under the ground-pressure around it as you go as deep as described. But I'd definitely argue that the ease of the digging would facilitate the engineering project greatly!

[Keravath]

Sorry, I mistyped that, corrected in edit. I meant to say 60 feet long. The 1-in-6 was rolled every time someone fell in, but damned if I didn't roll every number except 1.



Respectfully, this kind of bothers me, because it feels like you're makes some assumptions here. One, I'm the DM, and I ruled mold earth could build the pits. Ergo, at my table, mold earth could build the pits. If you rule differently, that's OK, because that's your table, your players, and your priorities of play. Two, you're assuming that they cared about hiding the dirt at all - they built a whole bunch of friggin earthworks behind the trench and disguised it as a hill with hallucinatory terrain. Three, you're assuming the orcs are rational, optimized actors. I played these guys as all kinds of friggin nuts (due to story considerations). So some of them fell in, but others tried jumping the pit (they really hate this druidess).

I get it, for some players this might break immersion. I personally don't care - the point is that the heroes got to feel freaking awesome, and they knew that awesomeness was due to their plan, not the bad guys. It's OK to let the heroes feel cool on their terms, y'all. Now, some of you seem concerned that players could use a cantrip to trample all over the world. That's a totally valid concern. It's also trivially easy to solve. The orcs might change their plans (like these orcs did), they might start figuring out the heroes like using pit traps and moving slowly (or, more diabolically, just gathering a bunch of people up in a group and moving them forward as a combination human shield/trap detector), they might have someone toss an augury up before they decide to engage, etc.

The point of the conversation here is that new, fun, and emergent lines of play come out of working with your players and giving them some leeway on their tools. The mechanical discussion, frankly, bores me.

I agree with you. You went with the rule of cool and I respect that. You decided that it was cool to let them dig the pits, you said they could and you let them do it. They had fun with it. You let the pit kill a bunch of orcs, half of them even.

Again, as I said, rule of cool.

You allowed it in your game.

However, when I looked at it, I wondered is that possible within the scope of the existing rules? Can mold earth really do that and should I use that ruling in the games I run? I tend to look at things from the perspective of "does it make sense in the game world"? So, I looked at the scenario you set up and decided that even though it is cool for mold earth to be able to be used that way to dig 200' pits ... it might not work with the spell as it is written which is what I was expressing.

Role playing the orcs is again the DM's perrogative. However, 10,000 xp of orcs is about 100 orcs. Are orcs lemmings? They have an int of 7 and average wisdom of 11. I don't know the in game context however, maybe they are so enraged by whatever they see that they swarm over the edge and drop to their death ... even 100 of them. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to me given how I picture orcs but who knows, maybe with the right context it makes sense for them to act like lemmings and jump into a pit.

However, again, the narrative this produces is lots of fun. Players love it "when a plan comes together". Digging pits, having the orcs tumble into the pits in the 100's is going to be fun for the players and if none of them are the type to really think about it then whether it is possible or not given the rules of the game doesn't really matter in that game at that time. I've done things like this dozens of times (just not with mold earth).

I'm sorry if it came across as too harsh or as a criticism. I was just pointing out that it works because the DM in this case thinks it is really cool and not because the rules of the game would necessarily allow it to happen. Why does this matter? Lots of folks could read this thread, go back to the games they play and demand of the DM that mold earth should let them build 200' deep pits ... lots of them ... in less than 2 weeks, since someone else did it. Should it work? That is up to the DM. Practically, if the DM decided to allow it, it would take 2-3 days/pit assuming the earth is loose enough. It might or might not work depending on the creatures that are attacking and precautions they might take. Which was the only point I was making.

[Chaosmancer]

Yeah, I don't really get why people are jumping on this with all this negativity.

"Cool story of doing something clever, but all your math is wrong and it would never work out that way". Really?

The point wasn't "mold earth can make a 10' by 200' pit" the point was that it gave players control of the terrain in a way that very few other abilities an do.

We had an enemy run up into a tree to snipe our allies once. Druid wanted to use Mold Earth to uproot the tree and send it crashing down (ended up unable to because of a sleep poison) and that was awesome. We were level 1, dropping a a tree would have been epic. I don't want the DM to hear that and say "well, the typical oak tree has roots that go 10 ft deep and in a radius of 20 ft, and being wrapped in roots isn't 'loose dirt per se and..."

Those players could have made a 20' deep 300' long trench filled with wooden stakes, all of the excess dirt being use to build a wall in front of the trench, and sure the orcs could have just moved around the wall and then the players could have done this, but the orcs would be too smart and instead do that and..

It all misses the point.

Mold Earth allows you to move a five foot cube of earth in six seconds, and opens up ways for players to shape the environment in ways they wouldn't have really tried before. That is cool and worth it.

[Segev]

Yeah, I don't really get why people are jumping on this with all this negativity.

"Cool story of doing something clever, but all your math is wrong and it would never work out that way". Really?

The point wasn't "mold earth can make a 10' by 200' pit" the point was that it gave players control of the terrain in a way that very few other abilities an do.

We had an enemy run up into a tree to snipe our allies once. Druid wanted to use Mold Earth to uproot the tree and send it crashing down (ended up unable to because of a sleep poison) and that was awesome. We were level 1, dropping a a tree would have been epic. I don't want the DM to hear that and say "well, the typical oak tree has roots that go 10 ft deep and in a radius of 20 ft, and being wrapped in roots isn't 'loose dirt per se and..."

Those players could have made a 20' deep 300' long trench filled with wooden stakes, all of the excess dirt being use to build a wall in front of the trench, and sure the orcs could have just moved around the wall and then the players could have done this, but the orcs would be too smart and instead do that and..

It all misses the point.

Mold Earth allows you to move a five foot cube of earth in six seconds, and opens up ways for players to shape the environment in ways they wouldn't have really tried before. That is cool and worth it.
Absolutely. It is a cool story, and it illustrates creative thinking.

We are, however, very prone to excessive examination, because that's the kind of thing we do. I won't say nobody has been trying to tear it down, but I will say I haven't been, despite the analysis. It's cool and inspiring and I'm glad it was brought here to share with us.

[Bobthewizard]

I would like to say that I don't think you did anything wrong. I like your ruling. But if you are claiming that mold earth wrecked the combat encounter the answer is no. Mold earth is a very good cantrip but has restrictions. You chose to ignore the restrictions on the spell and that is fine.

[Gungor]

Players: "How many trenches, and how deep, can we make in a week using mold earth?"

DM: "Good question." Goes off and calculates, consulting the internet, for an hour. "The answer is..."

THAT would be a fun game.

The DM made a call, using his judgment about what is practical. I dare say that each of us, in similar circumstances, would have come up with widely varying answers. What all of our answers would have in common, though, is they all probably would have been way off from what could "really" be done.

Could the players have excavated the trenches to those exact specifications? Maybe yes, maybe no, and it IS fun (for some of us) to think about the "how" and calculate what is "feasible".

But the real point is the players wanted to use mold earth to create pits around their stronghold. They certainly should be able to do that and those pits should certainly be deep enough to mark the end of any (regular) orc that fell into them. (Even if they survived falling into a 50 foot hole, how would they get out?

Maybe the reason so many people are "armchair DMing" is because of the title of the thread? To me this is isn't about how "broken" mold earth is. This is about how awesome role-playing games are. The players came up with a cool idea that the DM probably didn't plan for, and the DM found a way to dynamically change the story he had planned to accommodate the players. That's what a great DM does.

[Segev]

People are armchair DMing, I think, because that’s the mini game we can play from our side of the computer screen.

I think we mostly agree this was cool. I also think we are failing to take into account how much longer we have to do these calculations than a DM running a game does. These seem like reasonable calls for the situation he had in-game, and the players had fun and had to work to earn the victory via infiltration mission and all.

[Tanarii]

I'm armchair DMing because my first reaction to 200ft deep pits would have been "there's no way the cantrip can do that. Let's compromise on 30ft Deep and 10ft wide if you make them at least 100 ft long, with ramps down at the ends."

That doesn't make their answer wrong for their table. But the title premise is wrong. It would never wreck my combat encounters, and if it did wreck them there was another problem. For example, the result he got would probably wreck the encounter for most of the players (judgement call on my part), because it would mess with suspension of disbelief and understanding of the wY the cantrip works.

[deljzc]

As a person who works in earthwork, the issue here is not moving the dirt itself, it's supporting the "hole".

There is a reason OSHA has rules for any excavation deeper than 4' deep (you read that correctly, only 4' deep).

As a rule of thumb, "loose dirt" only supports itself to 5' deep (barely). Anything deeper than 5' collapses or is in danger of collapsing. A 10' deep hole almost certainly collapses.

Natural slope on earth (again, depending on type) is around 1.5:1. That means a sloped excavation 10'x10'x10' (10' square at the bottom), turns into a 40' x 40' square (or rough square/circle) at the top.

I'm not saying making a killing pit is impossible. But even digging and supporting a 10'x10'x20' deep hole is HARD work, even with magic to move the dirt for you.

And we haven't discussed the likely possibility of groundwater ;-)

[Segev]

Even this would probably fail (because the slope would be unsustainable with even packed earth), but the way I'd probably have done it would have been a "pit" that was more a cliff on one side, and then stair-steps up to ground level as the excavation path for all the dirt. Then hide the cliff with a fog cloud or hallucinatory terrain. Same plummet, less trapping, less work.

But this was epic as played, and probably wasn't really broken because of the preliminary work that went into setting up the pits even being a viable option. Anything that plays around with spells creatively can be a lot of fun, but takes discussion with the DM. The DM made his ruling here on how it worked, and everyone enjoyed it. I think it was cool.

[Contrast]

I'm armchair DMing because my first reaction to 200ft deep pits would have been "there's no way the cantrip can do that. Let's compromise on 30ft Deep and 10ft wide if you make them at least 100 ft long, with ramps down at the ends."

That doesn't make their answer wrong for their table. But the title premise is wrong. It would never wreck my combat encounters, and if it did wreck them there was another problem. For example, the result he got would probably wreck the encounter for most of the players (judgement call on my part), because it would mess with suspension of disbelief and understanding of the wY the cantrip works.

Yeah 200ft is just silly. Would I have been totally on board for a player using Mold Earth to create pit traps? Go crazy. Would they have been anything close to 200ft deep? Not remotely (for a number of reasons).


For those discussing fun vs practicality - I agree with OPs general premise that getting players invested in the physical (or social) layout of their game can give players a much greater level of investment and feeling of reward when it pays off. Letting them be ones choosing the ground and setting the agenda can be very satisfying as a player. The corollary to that though is that there needs to be a feeling that the reward is reasonable and earned otherwise the payoff is going to feel hollow. It sounds like this druid did better using a cantrip to shape their terrain than someone using Move Earth (a 6th level spell) could have achieved, for example. As OP said, YMMV on that one of course as everyones limits on those criteria are going to be different.

Mostly I just roll my eyes whenever I see someone who thinks Mold Earth is OP because they're so inventive with it when what they mean is because their DM interpreted 'loose earth' to be anything except solid stone and they redirected a river to flood a dungeon or undermined a castle wall in an hour. I have similar feelings for people who seem to think Minor Illusion is just a mix of Major Image and Seeming/Disguise Self that has to be kept in a 5ft cube.

Personally I'd say anything deeper than a couple of feet would count as compacted earth and would need to be worked with a shovel/pickaxe before it became loose earth. Faster digging rather than reshaping geography in an hour, seems much more appropriate for the power scale of a cantrip to me.


That all said...OPs druid didn't need Mold Earth at all potentially. Cave badgers are a CR1/4 medium sized beast with a burrow speed of 15ft a round that explicitly leaves the tunnels open behind them. A 3rd level spell slot gets you 8 of them for an hour at a time if you DM is letting you choose the summons (which seems likely given OP was being permissive/supportive with Mold Earth).

[Tanarii]

Mostly I just roll my eyes whenever I see someone who thinks Mold Earth is OP because they're so inventive with it when what they mean is because their DM interpreted 'loose earth' to be anything except solid stone and they redirected a river to flood a dungeon or undermined a castle wall in an hour. I have similar feelings for people who seem to think Minor Illusion is just a mix of Major Image and Seeming/Disguise Self that has to be kept in a 5ft cube. Fwiw Crawford has said that "loose earth" means dirt not stone. I'd assume lava is out too.

Certainly there is a point at which it's crossing a line, but having had to take a pickaxe to (very dry) dirt only 2 ft down before, the spell would basically useless for anything except the thinnest layer of topsoil in many environments if taken as actually "loose" and not compacted.

[Segev]

Fwiw Crawford has said that "loose earth" means dirt not stone. I'd assume lava is out too.

Certainly there is a point at which it's crossing a line, but having had to take a pickaxe to (very dry) dirt only 2 ft down before, the spell would basically useless for anything except the thinnest layer of topsoil in many environments if taken as actually "loose" and not compacted.

Would have been nice if they worded it as "If you target an area of dirt (not stone), you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage." It's only one more word than "loose earth," and would have been in line with what is apparently the RAI without requiring either leaning on JC tweets (which I hate to do) or getting into fiddly questions of "how loose is 'loose?'" And yes, I know such fiddly questions are a red flag for a rules lawyer looking to powergame something, but it doesn't invalidate the question. The decision as to how loose it has to be does have to be made.

[Keravath]

Would have been nice if they worded it as "If you target an area of dirt (not stone), you can instantaneously excavate it, move it along the ground, and deposit it up to 5 feet away. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage." It's only one more word than "loose earth," and would have been in line with what is apparently the RAI without requiring either leaning on JC tweets (which I hate to do) or getting into fiddly questions of "how loose is 'loose?'" And yes, I know such fiddly questions are a red flag for a rules lawyer looking to powergame something, but it doesn't invalidate the question. The decision as to how loose it has to be does have to be made.

They may have left it as "loose earth" and thus ambiguous in order to leave how powerful the cantrip should be up to the DM and not the player. If it said excavating dirt then some folks might be able to build strip mines with a cantrip. Dig huge underground fortifications, all with a cantrip. Excavate tunnels (through dirt and not stone) that could be miles in length with a chain of folks casting mold earth. However, by leaving it at "loose earth" the wording allows the DM to decide how loose is loose and thus how powerful they want mold earth to be in THEIR game. Some DMs might allow it to dig down the first 5' and that would be about it ... maybe 10' to 20' with extra effort ... while other DMs might allow it to dig 200' holes and enable different capabilities and lines of play using the cantrip.

[Laserlight]

Cool story. I always like it when the PCs make clever use of terrain, and when they can cleverly make the terrain, so much the better.

[Segev]

They may have left it as "loose earth" and thus ambiguous in order to leave how powerful the cantrip should be up to the DM and not the player. If it said excavating dirt then some folks might be able to build strip mines with a cantrip. Dig huge underground fortifications, all with a cantrip. Excavate tunnels (through dirt and not stone) that could be miles in length with a chain of folks casting mold earth. However, by leaving it at "loose earth" the wording allows the DM to decide how loose is loose and thus how powerful they want mold earth to be in THEIR game. Some DMs might allow it to dig down the first 5' and that would be about it ... maybe 10' to 20' with extra effort ... while other DMs might allow it to dig 200' holes and enable different capabilities and lines of play using the cantrip.

Eh. Maybe, but that isn't really "letting the DM decide" because it just creates ambiguity that DMs who are afraid to make rulings that would prevent strip mining and tunnelling (e.g. "no, that would collapse") will also be afraid to rule that it's useful because "loose earth" is so vague that you could rule that anything harder to move than dry sand isn't "loose." In fact, if I hadn't heard somebody use the "if you can shovel it" example, that would have been my base assumption, and I'd have dismissed it as a near-uselessly situational spell. Worse than gust, even.

[Evaar]

Respectfully, this kind of bothers me, because it feels like you're makes some assumptions here. One, I'm the DM, and I ruled mold earth could build the pits.

And I think you made the right call. The players came up with a clever plan and had a lot of time available to implement it. Why any DM would want to squash that is beyond me. They should absolutely be rewarded for that idea. Sounds like a great game. Good job.

[patchyman]

We had an enemy run up into a tree to snipe our allies once. Druid wanted to use Mold Earth to uproot the tree and send it crashing down (ended up unable to because of a sleep poison) and that was awesome. We were level 1, dropping a a tree would have been epic. I don't want the DM to hear that and say "well, the typical oak tree has roots that go 10 ft deep and in a radius of 20 ft, and being wrapped in roots isn't 'loose dirt per se and..."


I don’t want to pile on the OP...so I will pile on you instead. :-)

There are two reasonable objections to interpreting a cantrip as vastly more powerful than it is. First, verisimilitude in the world. It’s not unreasonable to look at the description of the cantrip and conclude that the proposed usage is far beyond what makes sense according to its description. Second, caster-martial balance. Unfortunately, magic is very often given a pass on whether it makes sense, while martials are held to a stricter standard.

Let’s go back to your example. The way I would run it in my campaign would be as follows.

Druid: “Can I use Mold Earth to uproot the tree and knock down the enemy?”
DM: “It’s a big tree and oaks have pretty deep roots. You can use Mold Earth to weaken the roots, but someone’s going to have to make an Athletics check to knock it over. It will probably be difficult.”

Druid casts Mold Earth. Fighter can try to knock down oak with his +5 Athletics, or time an attack with the Paladin to make the check with adv. If they fail, they can try again next turn (perhaps at a lower DC as they damage the tree).

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, I don't really get why people are jumping on this with all this negativity.

Just from an gut instinct perspective, I suspect there are a few reasons. First, the thread title. It combines sounding like it is about to lay down a bunch of wisdom instead of recount a cool story. Beyond that, it sounds a little bit like a clickbait article on reddit or msn or the like (not quite 'Mold Earth Will Absolutely Wreck your Combat Encounters (And You'll Never Guess Why)", but a little bit).

Probably more to the point is the 200' drop, and how that is max-damage fall distance. I mean, a 40' pit would probably be lethal to 90+% of the orc army (and the survivors would be in a pit with a few hp left), so the extra 160' is pretty much meaningless, but it still has a different resonance. It seems like it is mixing gamist conceits into a vignette where an open-ended spell is the key to winning. I think if the same story had been told, but with the pit defined simply as 'deep,' the reaction would be different.

[Segev]

Let’s go back to your example. The way I would run it in my campaign would be as follows.

Druid: “Can I use Mold Earth to uproot the tree and knock down the enemy?”
DM: “It’s a big tree and oaks have pretty deep roots. You can use Mold Earth to weaken the roots, but someone’s going to have to make an Athletics check to knock it over. It will probably be difficult.”

Druid casts Mold Earth. Fighter can try to knock down oak with his +5 Athletics, or time an attack with the Paladin to make the check with adv. If they fail, they can try again next turn (perhaps at a lower DC as they damage the tree).

This is in general good advice. Remember that everything has limits, but then try to find ways to exploit what it CAN do, especially if it brings other PCs into the solution.

[Joe the Rat]

My thought on the excavated dirt is to build up the land around - a gradual raising of the land up to the pit. You could probably shave 20-30 feet off the excavation by raising the river, so to speak.

If your cover allows, raise the defensive side further, to give yourself a little high ground.

...and add a little thunderwave or other tremory effect to collapse portions back into the pit and bury your enemies.


So here's the story problem for everyone. How many castings does it take to make a 200' deep 10'x10' hole?


"Let's ask Mr. Xorn."

"One, t-who! three!" *bites a hole in the ground* "...three."
Well done.

[Chaosmancer]

It sounds like this druid did better using a cantrip to shape their terrain than someone using Move Earth (a 6th level spell) could have achieved, for example. As OP said, YMMV on that one of course as everyones limits on those criteria are going to be different.

I keep seeing this, and it kind of bugs me a little bit.

First of all, no one seems to like Move Earth. A few quick searches showed me that most people have no idea what to do with it. It is a high-level spell that seems to be ignored by just about everyone (to the point where I thought it was a Xanathar spell and didn't even realize it was in the PHB). So, I'm fine with this spell being outdone, since it seems to have been a bad spell to begin with.

And Second, repeated use of cantrips pretty much always out-performs a single high level spell when given enough time. Take "Create Bonfire" it burns a 5ft square, 25 sg ft. Fire Storm is a 7th level spell that burns ten, 10' squares, so a single casting burns 1,000 sq ft. After four minutes of casting, Create Bonfire has started to outperform Fire Storm in terms of square footage caught on fire. Being able to do the same action, repeatedly, for multiple hours, will eventually out-perform being able to do it on a big scale once a day.

Even if we accept that "Move Earth" should be in consideration for effectiveness and we should only be able to make 20 ft deep pits, that is 12 pits of 20x20. Each pit taking ten minutes. Mold Earth can make a 20x20 pit in about a minute and a half. So if we gave 7 castings to Move Earth (for the week) each lasting 2 hours for 14 hours, that is 84 pits.

Mold Earth in that same 14 hours could make 525 pits of the same size.

It is just a bad comparison. Granted, you also presented the idea that Mold Earth should only work on truly loose, already turned, no plants in it dirt... Which really means it will never work because how often are you going to find dirt that is already loosed for your character to do anything useful with.





I don’t want to pile on the OP...so I will pile on you instead. :-)

There are two reasonable objections to interpreting a cantrip as vastly more powerful than it is. First, verisimilitude in the world. It’s not unreasonable to look at the description of the cantrip and conclude that the proposed usage is far beyond what makes sense according to its description. Second, caster-martial balance. Unfortunately, magic is very often given a pass on whether it makes sense, while martials are held to a stricter standard.

DM might have needed an athletics to give it a push, but there was a large man up in the tree anyways.

But, a few notes. That particular party had Two Bards, A Rogue, A Warlock, and a Sorcerer besides the Druid. And my rogue was just fine with being out done by magic.

I know, not every game is going to have the same party make-up, but this is an important consideration. When the DM makes the call, and there are no martial characters to "outshine" I think it is fair they err on the side of letting the people at the table do cool things.

But I do agree, I'd like Martials to do more cool things. I could see a barbarian with 20 str and rage knocking that tree over with an Athletics check.

But vastly more powerful than they are? Letting Mold Earth move a 5ft cube of dirt is exactly what it does. I would let a block and pulley chain pull Shoveled dirt out of a deep hole, so I could see someone shoveling down 200 ft. My only concession would be that it takes longer, since you can't dig a 5 ft cube in 6 seconds. Just like you can't make a 5ft bonfire without taking the time to gather the materials needed and catching it all on fire, and you can't clean clothes without soap and water.

All magic is really doing is speeding it up and removing the tools needed. Not doing something that I would say is impossible

[AdAstra]

While I probably wouldn't have allowed a 200 foot deep pit (dirt usually doesn't go down that far, and even if it did there would be a massive amount of pressure at the bottom collapsing/forcing dirt into the bottom of the pit and filling it back up), I find the idea of making lethal pit traps entirely feasible, and good work with letting your players modify the environment in a sensible and effective way.

Personally, I would've put some maximum depth of the pits at like 30-60 feet, but would've allowed placing sharpened stakes or something for additional damage. Not mechanically much different from your way, just personally sits better with me.

[Contrast]

snip

It is just a bad comparison. Granted, you also presented the idea that Mold Earth should only work on truly loose, already turned, no plants in it dirt... Which really means it will never work because how often are you going to find dirt that is already loosed for your character to do anything useful with.

I do agree Move Earth isn't a great spell though I did point out they could have done the same thing more effectively with a 3rd level spell slot and cave badgers instead as well.

And I pointed out when you're going to find already loosened earth - when someone takes a pickaxe or a shovel to it and loosens it up a bit. The PC or a related party is more than capable of being that someone (I'm sure an earth element could loosen quite a lot of soil, for example). It makes the act of digging substantially easier, just like Prestidigitation makes keeping yourself presentable in an adventuring lifestyle substantially easier without necessarily also outfitting you with new sets of clothes, food and setting your tents up for you.

In the example given that stipulation would barely have impacted the plan to make pitfall traps at all (they had enough time they could have made a number without magical assistance at all if they'd been inclined - they just wouldn't have been as numerous or 200ft deep... and I would argue nothing about Mold Earth meant they should have been able to create stable 200ft deep pitfall traps either).

[Segev]

I do agree Move Earth isn't a great spell though I did point out they could have done the same thing more effectively with a 3rd level spell slot and cave badgers instead as well.

And I pointed out when you're going to find already loosened earth - when someone takes a pickaxe or a shovel to it and loosens it up a bit. The PC or a related party is more than capable of being that someone (I'm sure an earth element could loosen quite a lot of soil, for example). It makes the act of digging substantially easier, just like Prestidigitation makes keeping yourself presentable in an adventuring lifestyle substantially easier without necessarily also outfitting you with new sets of clothes, food and setting your tents up for you.

In the example given that stipulation would barely have impacted the plan to make pitfall traps at all (they had enough time they could have made a number without magical assistance at all if they'd been inclined - they just wouldn't have been as numerous or 200ft deep... and I would argue nothing about Mold Earth meant they should have been able to create stable 200ft deep pitfall traps either).

The trouble with the argument that somebody (else) can loosen the earth to make it viable is...by the time they've loosened a whole 5-foot-deep section, they've also dug it out. Why do you need mold earth, again?

[Chaosmancer]

I do agree Move Earth isn't a great spell though I did point out they could have done the same thing more effectively with a 3rd level spell slot and cave badgers instead as well.

And I pointed out when you're going to find already loosened earth - when someone takes a pickaxe or a shovel to it and loosens it up a bit. The PC or a related party is more than capable of being that someone (I'm sure an earth element could loosen quite a lot of soil, for example). It makes the act of digging substantially easier, just like Prestidigitation makes keeping yourself presentable in an adventuring lifestyle substantially easier without necessarily also outfitting you with new sets of clothes, food and setting your tents up for you.

In the example given that stipulation would barely have impacted the plan to make pitfall traps at all (they had enough time they could have made a number without magical assistance at all if they'd been inclined - they just wouldn't have been as numerous or 200ft deep... and I would argue nothing about Mold Earth meant they should have been able to create stable 200ft deep pitfall traps either).

Exactly what Segev said, if you need someone to "loosen" a 5 ft cube to cast the cantrip, then what is the point of the cantrip? If you need an Earth Elemental to use a cantrip, then again, far too restrictive.

[Daithi]

Storytime... snip

It sounds cool. It must be a pleasure playing the game at your table.

[Contrast]

The trouble with the argument that somebody (else) can loosen the earth to make it viable is...by the time they've loosened a whole 5-foot-deep section, they've also dug it out. Why do you need mold earth, again?


Exactly what Segev said, if you need someone to "loosen" a 5 ft cube to cast the cantrip, then what is the point of the cantrip? If you need an Earth Elemental to use a cantrip, then again, far too restrictive.

Because you'll do it much faster, easier and better? Why use Mending when you could just take the time and repair it without using magic? Why cast healing spells instead of just waiting for the wounds to heal naturally? Why cast Firebolt when you can just shoot a bow?

The reason I mentioned Earth Elementals in particular is that OP mentioned their druid turning into an Earth Elemental (they must be a highish level moon druid) so it would have been a non-issue for them.

More broadly, if you can't source any sort of digging implement in two weeks and don't want to expend any non-cantrip resources I feel like you don't deserve to have pit traps honestly :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

Because you'll do it much faster, easier and better? Why use Mending when you could just take the time and repair it without using magic? Why cast healing spells instead of just waiting for the wounds to heal naturally? Why cast Firebolt when you can just shoot a bow?

The reason I mentioned Earth Elementals in particular is that OP mentioned their druid turning into an Earth Elemental (they must be a highish level moon druid) so it would have been a non-issue for them.

More broadly, if you can't source any sort of digging implement in two weeks and don't want to expend any non-cantrip resources I feel like you don't deserve to have pit traps honestly :smallbiggrin:

The trouble is that you’re effectively suggesting that they should sew the torn shirt or reforge the broken sword and then cast mending on the seam.

I think you underestimate how much work it is to till earth into the consistency of loam down to a depth of five feet. It’s actively easier to excavate it, then crumble it into the desired consistency, when you’re going that deep.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Because you'll do it much faster, easier and better?
Is it really all that much more efficient when you've already had to clear out the hole to make it "loose earth"?

Think about it, if you have to soften the dirt yourself in the 5ft Cube, it likely involves you shoveling out the 5ft cube and then putting the dirt back for some reason just so you can cast mold earth on it. Unless you've made some tool that can efficiently loosen a 5ft cube of dirt without being equally as efficient at moving the dirt in that area, Mold Earth is not very useful in this case.

The argument you're making is kind of like Mending a broken object with more than 1 foot of a break or tear. You can do it, however you need to break it into smaller pieces so you can cast mending properly. That's certainly easier and less time consuming than simply repairing the original break, right?

[Zalabim]

Are you all just ingenuously ignoring that the spell has other codified uses? Because it sure sounds like you're all ingenuously ignoring that the spell has other codified uses. Why would you make the ground difficult terrain when you could make the ground a 5' pit with a 5' berm of earth on the other side? Doesn't the ability to earthbend out a 5' cube of what is certainly softer-than-stone, but definitely solid earth defeat the purpose a different function of the spell?

[Segev]

Are you all just ingenuously ignoring that the spell has other codified uses? Because it sure sounds like you're all ingenuously ignoring that the spell has other codified uses. Why would you make the ground difficult terrain when you could make the ground a 5' pit with a 5' berm of earth on the other side? Doesn't the ability to earthbend out a 5' cube of what is certainly softer-than-stone, but definitely solid earth defeat the purpose a different function of the spell?

No, but we're addressing the excavation bullet point, because it's our contention that it's actually meant to be used, rather than being a waste of wordcount. "If you happen to be in a freshly-tilled field or in the desert, you can excavate 5 ft. cubes of sand or loam. They'll fill right back in, of course, because they're so loose, but you can do it!" is not what the spell says, but is what some of these interpretations of "loose earth" seem to try to reduce it to.

The counterargument we're counterarguing back against is one where the claim is you use a shovel or other tools to loosen the earth so it qualifies. What we're saying is that the only way to mechanically loosen dirt to that consistency is to do at least as much work with those digging implements as it would take to excavate the dirt by hand in the first place, rendering the spell pointless in this situation.

We didn't say it's pointless en toto if it can't do what its first bullet point says it can, but we are saying the first bullet point is useless if you interpret it the way we're arguing against interpreting it.

[Contrast]

The trouble is that you’re effectively suggesting that they should sew the torn shirt or reforge the broken sword and then cast mending on the seam.

I think you underestimate how much work it is to till earth into the consistency of loam down to a depth of five feet. It’s actively easier to excavate it, then crumble it into the desired consistency, when you’re going that deep.


Is it really all that much more efficient when you've already had to clear out the hole to make it "loose earth"?

Think about it, if you have to soften the dirt yourself in the 5ft Cube, it likely involves you shoveling out the 5ft cube and then putting the dirt back for some reason just so you can cast mold earth on it. Unless you've made some tool that can efficiently loosen a 5ft cube of dirt without being equally as efficient at moving the dirt in that area, Mold Earth is not very useful in this case.

The argument you're making is kind of like Mending a broken object with more than 1 foot of a break or tear. You can do it, however you need to break it into smaller pieces so you can cast mending properly. That's certainly easier and less time consuming than simply repairing the original break, right?

You seem to be assuming you have to wait to cast Mold Earth until you have the maximum 5ft cube of soil available which I agree would be a very poor way to go about it.

It seems to me it would be much faster and require less effort (to the point of no comparison) to loosen up the surface of soil and then wave my hand to have the surface layer disappear and repeat than it would be to manually dig it all out myself. I imagine one person with Mold Earth could make a small team (say, an adventurer sized party, to choose an example totally at random) hugely more efficient at digging. I'm not suggesting it needs to be totally excavated and tilled to a fine consistency before Mold Earth can work just that there needs to be some initial effort other than just gesturing and a 5ft cube of soil pops out of the ground - is it really so hard to concieve of some middle ground where a cantrip could be useful that falls between 'is just a spade' and 'able to excavate tonnes of material a minute with no effort'? Obviously 'enhanced digging' is a much worse cantrip than 'become an earth bender' so if thats your standard, yes it is not very useful in comparison.

If you actually want to do anything with that soil after digging it out (like build fortifications or disguise the fact that you've just built a pitfall trap for example) then Mold Earth is clearly massively superior in an incomparable fashion to just having a spade/pickaxe.


Re the other uses of the spell. They do suffer rather heavily from the limitations the spell put on itself. Only two instances of 5ft cubes of difficult terrain is pretty underwhelming. I would agree that nixing those restrictions helps the cantrip feel more useful.

[Tanarii]

This discussion and the "break it up first" point of view has now fully convinced me that loose earth means dirt not stone. :smallamused:

[ProsecutorGodot]

This discussion and the "break it up first" point of view has now fully convinced me that loose earth means dirt not stone. :smallamused:

I wouldn't be all that surprised, even though the spell says it can target dirt or stone, it instead says "loose earth" when it could have said one of its two target options.

But wait, the other two bullet points specify dirt and stone... Perhaps "loose earth" does mean Dirt and Stone, but not packed dirt or solid stone, but loose dirt and gravel.


You seem to be assuming you have to wait to cast Mold Earth until you have the maximum 5ft cube of soil available which I agree would be a very poor way to go about it.

It seems to me it would be much faster and require less effort (to the point of no comparison) to loosen up the surface of soil and then wave my hand to have the surface layer disappear and repeat than it would be to manually dig it all out myself. I imagine one person with Mold Earth could make a small team (say, an adventurer sized party, to choose an example totally at random) hugely more efficient at digging. I'm not suggesting it needs to be totally excavated and tilled to a fine consistency before Mold Earth can work just that there needs to be some initial effort other than just gesturing and a 5ft cube of soil pops out of the ground - is it really so hard to concieve of some middle ground where a cantrip could be useful that falls between 'is just a spade' and 'able to excavate tonnes of material a minute with no effort'? Obviously 'enhanced digging' is a much worse cantrip than 'become an earth bender' so if thats your standard, yes it is not very useful in comparison.
I don't see how it becomes more efficient to add more people to the procedure just to cast mold earth instead of manually excavating the dirt. I especially don't see why you would bother loosing a layer of dirt with a tool like a Hoe just to move it in smaller increments with Mold Earth when you could shovel it out in those smaller increments instead.

It's only more convenient if the area is already loose earth in a majority of the 5ft casting area, so that you can easily excavate the most area for the least effort. The more extra work you have to do just to cast the spell, the less useful the spell is.

[Contrast]

I wouldn't be all that surprised, even though the spell says it can target dirt or stone, it instead says "loose earth" when it could have said one of its two target options.

But wait, the other two bullet points specify dirt and stone... Perhaps "loose earth" does mean Dirt and Stone, but not packed dirt or solid stone, but loose dirt and gravel.

For clarity my understanding of how the spell works is based on the opinion that the difference in wording of the various bullet points was intentional and that 'loose earth' and 'dirt or stone' are not equivilent and interchangeable terms for the purposes of the spell.


I don't see how it becomes more efficient to add more people to the procedure just to cast mold earth instead of manually excavating the dirt. I especially don't see why you would bother loosing a layer of dirt with a tool like a Hoe just to move it in smaller increments with Mold Earth when you could shovel it out in those smaller increments instead.

It's only more convenient if the area is already loose earth in a majority of the 5ft casting area, so that you can easily excavate the most area for the least effort. The more extra work you have to do just to cast the spell, the less useful the spell is.

So here is a guide on how to dig a hole (https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-hand-dig-a-hole/).

Mold Earth means 1 person can do step 4 for a large number of people, meaning they only have to do step 3. Honestly I wasn't even suggesting breaking it down as much as the image shows there - some work with a pickaxe'll get you there.

I agree with you that this is less useful than being able to Minecraft your way around the world but its a massive improvement over doing it all by hand.

If you don't see why that's more useful than a spade I feel there's just a fundamental disconnect in our understandings that doesn't seem to be reducing by discussing it :smalltongue: Perhaps if there is ever a GitP-con we can meet up and have a hole digging contest :smallbiggrin:

[Segev]

You seem to be assuming you have to wait to cast Mold Earth until you have the maximum 5ft cube of soil available which I agree would be a very poor way to go about it. You seem to be assuming that they said "5 ft. cube" when they really meant "a few inches of topsoil at a time."

Spells generally are meant to do what they say they do. It's considered a dysfunction when other rules that seemingly were forgotten by the writer make it so they don't. When these "other rules" boil down to "how the DM chooses to rule something," I generally think it's safest to revise the DM ruling not to interfere with the written function of the spell.


It seems to me it would be much faster and require less effort (to the point of no comparison) to loosen up the surface of soil and then wave my hand to have the surface layer disappear and repeat than it would be to manually dig it all out myself. I imagine one person with Mold Earth could make a small team (say, an adventurer sized party, to choose an example totally at random) hugely more efficient at digging. I'm not suggesting it needs to be totally excavated and tilled to a fine consistency before Mold Earth can work just that there needs to be some initial effort other than just gesturing and a 5ft cube of soil pops out of the ground - is it really so hard to concieve of some middle ground where a cantrip could be useful that falls between 'is just a spade' and 'able to excavate tonnes of material a minute with no effort'? Obviously 'enhanced digging' is a much worse cantrip than 'become an earth bender' so if thats your standard, yes it is not very useful in comparison. Except that the spell doesn't say, "With a team to loosen packed earth, you can remove about a foot deep in a five foot square area per casting." It says you can excavate - "excavate" - a five foot cube of loose earth.

Maybe you're of the opinion - which isn't an invalid one - that the "fits in a five foot cube" business refers to total volume and not shape, so it's "obviously" meant to excavate packed dirt that's been loosened to a foot deep in a 25 square foot area?


If you actually want to do anything with that soil after digging it out (like build fortifications or disguise the fact that you've just built a pitfall trap for example) then Mold Earth is clearly massively superior in an incomparable fashion to just having a spade/pickaxe.If it just said you could move loose earth, I'd agree. But it talks about excavating it to a particular depth. If you had a mound of loose earth that was 10 feet deep in the middle and, say, 25 feet square, roughly, and you were to remove a five foot cube chunk from the center-top, you'd wind up not with a five foot pit in your mound, but a dimple as the whole thing collapses in on itself on top.


Re the other uses of the spell. They do suffer rather heavily from the limitations the spell put on itself. Only two instances of 5ft cubes of difficult terrain is pretty underwhelming. I would agree that nixing those restrictions helps the cantrip feel more useful.I actually think the difficult terrain is the biggest advantage of it. It's not obviously difficult, unless I misunderstand, so the people you put it in the way of don't know to jump over it before they lose their footing and five feet of movement to it.

Smoothing out difficult terrain is kinda useless, though, outside of very narrow (heh) conditions where giving a five- or ten-foot runway would let people jump over difficult terrain without having to enter it. I guess if you had a swath of ~35 feet of difficult terrain you needed to get Str 10 folks across quickly, you could put a patch of smoothed terrain at the 15 and 25 ft. marks and they could jump over ten feet of terrain in multiple hops? Still, awfully contrived and takes two rounds of prep work for something that in theory you really need people moving quickly for. (Otherwise, why bother?)


For clarity my understanding of how the spell works is based on the opinion that the difference in wording of the various bullet points was intentional and that 'loose earth' and 'dirt or stone' are not equivilent and interchangeable terms for the purposes of the spell.I get that. My issue is just that it seems like it reduces the first bullet point to near-uselessness. On par with gust, if not less.

Making the other bullet points, which are okay ribbons, have to bear the weight of the cantrip...and they kind-of fail on their own. If you can't use it to excavate in most situations, I don't see it as a useful spell. I'm not sure when I'd ever see it used in play even if I gave it away for free to my wizard and warlock, if I used the interpretations given here for "loose earth." The jungle floor of Chult definitely only qualifies by my definition of "not solid stone;" with the "packed dirt doesn't count" definition, the only place they could have used it was the ash-covered wasteland, and I really don't know how useful it would have been in those circumstances.

As to why they said "loose earth" rather than "dirt" or "stone?" What if it's because it's supposed to be MORE permissive? As has been noted, gravel is "loose stone." "Loose earth" could mean "dirt or gravel." Not saying it has to, but that it could.

I can't read minds, but to me, it seems like the way the first bullet point is phrased, the designers were picturing 5-foot-cube-shaped-holes being dug in the ground. Which requires the ground to be able to hold a shape, and not become a 2-foot-ish-depression in the sand or loam that is the only thing you're actually allowed to use it on.


So here is a guide on how to dig a hole (https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-hand-dig-a-hole/).

Mold Earth means 1 person can do step 4 for a large number of people, meaning they only have to do step 3. Honestly I wasn't even suggesting breaking it down as much as the image shows there - some work with a pickaxe'll get you there.

I agree with you that this is less useful than being able to Minecraft your way around the world but its a massive improvement over doing it all by hand.

If you don't see why that's more useful than a spade I feel there's just a fundamental disconnect in our understandings that doesn't seem to be reducing by discussing it :smalltongue: Perhaps if there is ever a GitP-con we can meet up and have a hole digging contest :smallbiggrin:
Note how the hole dug there is only a foot or so deep in the end.

Also, "remove debris" is hardly "molding earth." The molding was done by the spades and shovels.

Heck, you started the hole before you broke down the sides to widen it. The only reason you need to remove the broken-up dirt is because you're not scooping it out as you go. This may be an efficiency choice, but it's still a choice.

Again, your interpretation seems to be similar to an interpretation of mending that would require sewing a torn shirt up competently, first, and then all mending does is make it "like new" rather than "obviously stitched." You have to do the major portion of the work first before the cantrip does what it says it does.

[ProsecutorGodot]

For clarity my understanding of how the spell works is based on the opinion that the difference in wording of the various bullet points was intentional and that 'loose earth' and 'dirt or stone' are not equivilent and interchangeable terms for the purposes of the spell.
To an extent, however the spell targetting dirt and stone isn't just the bullet point, it's the default and only applicable targets of the spell. "Loose Earth" is an extrapolation of those, loose types of dirt and stone. I believe that it chooses to say "earth" rather than "dirt and stone" because a "loose stone" technically allows 5ft boulders to fall under the category of things than can be moved, where when you label it as "Loose Earth" it determines types of dirt and stone that cover or make up the ground beneath you such as soil, gravel, silt or perhaps even sand.


So here is a guide on how to dig a hole (https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-hand-dig-a-hole/).

Mold Earth means 1 person can do step 4 for a large number of people, meaning they only have to do step 3. Honestly I wasn't even suggesting breaking it down as much as the image shows there - some work with a pickaxe'll get you there.

I agree with you that this is less useful than being able to Minecraft your way around the world but its a massive improvement over doing it all by hand.

If you don't see why that's more useful than a spade I feel there's just a fundamental disconnect in our understandings that doesn't seem to be reducing by discussing it :smalltongue: Perhaps if there is ever a GitP-con we can meet up and have a hole digging contest :smallbiggrin:

A few things here: I've never meant to claim that it's less useful than carrying a spade, however in most cases they're about equal and not a contest of whether one has an advantage over another. Mold Earth definitely has its own uses, it's a lot better at digging many small holes where preparation time isn't necessary.

It's when we start getting into the deep hole parts where I start to think Mold Earth is less of a convenience and more of a band-aid. Once you start tunneling with it, the more time you spend on that tunnel the less efficient you're being. After a certain threshold your time would have been better spent figuring out a quicker solution that may have taken an equal amount of manpower without the use of Mold Earth.

For clarity as well, since my stance might have come off as a bit too harsh, I'm most likely not going to make a character start loosening dirt from the surface layer if they want to cast Mold Earth on it, generally the top area of the surface that we walk on is already considered loose despite how packed it can be, it's the much deeper areas of dirt that you would have to start making an effort to loosen, and at that threshold I would expect more efficient options to exist.

For example, note that the Druid had weeks to set up these pitfalls. Many are arguing over whether the Druid could do so, which they definitely could have, just almost certainly not with exclusively the Mold Earth Cantrip. My contention is that at the point Mold Earth no longer becomes usable, your time and resources are better spend hiring people skilled to do the work and taking a hands off approach than continuing to try and use Mold Earth. That's even ignoring that this was a 14th level party with weeks of prep-time, Move Earth, Stone Shape and Transmute Rock were all on the table. I'm not necessarily arguing that the Druid couldn't have done it, simply that the apparent catch all tool isn't that effective.

[Contrast]

You seem to be assuming that they said "5 ft. cube" when they really meant "a few inches of topsoil at a time."

If you have 5ft of loose earth you can shift a 5ft cube of loose earth. If you don't, you can't.

Thunderwave is a 15ft cube. The fact that it extends 15ft high isn't somehow a sign that the developers intended all uses of the spell to hit enemies at 5ft high, 10ft high and 15ft high. You certainly can if the situation is right for it but the DM isn't obliged to have enemies attacking you stacked up on each others shoulders so you can always get maximum efficiency out of the spell.


Snip

We seem to be going round in circles so I'll keep my response brief as I feel we've reached the agree to disagree stage of the conversation :smalltongue:

Even if you think my interpretation makes the spell useless for digging holes it would remain a tremendous amount of utility for shifting earth around once it is excavated. It makes it possible for a party to construct fortifcations in times that would normally take larger groups of people much longer.

Even if the spell explicitly couldn't dig at all, I would argue the first bullet point would still be the most potentially impactful of the three - far from being neutered into uselessness (for clarity, I do agree it would not be a particularly enticing cantrip if this were the case).

[Segev]

While I am firmly on the side that the dirt in my front yard (which is matted with grass and won't blow away in the wind, and would be considered "packed" by most definitions) could be excavated to a depth of 5 feet in a 5 foot area with this spell, one thing I do agree: Go much deeper than 10 or 15 feet with this, and you start having any kind of viable target for it threatend to collapse in on itself from the ground-pressure around the hole.

[Chaosmancer]

Since the "loose earth" discussion seems to winding down (and I fully agree having to dig the hole first and then use the cantrip as a large but slow wheelbarrow makes it nearly useless in that capacity of excavation) I did find an interesting little side jaunt about the third bullet point

The reason it is generally not used, I think, is that it is too small for the two actions you use to create it, maxing out in a 5 x 10 strip. Lasting an hour is potentially great, but with such a small area and needing to recast it, that doesn't help much.

Ah, and I just double checked the spell and my thought is ruined. I was thinking you could cast it upon walls, making them difficult terrain for creatures with climb speeds. A minor speed bump, but actually something otherwise impossible to really do.

As is, I think that bullet point might need a buff, it is a cool idea to lay down long-lasting difficult terrain, but it needs to be bigger I think to actually get a lot of usage.

[Segev]

Since the "loose earth" discussion seems to winding down (and I fully agree having to dig the hole first and then use the cantrip as a large but slow wheelbarrow makes it nearly useless in that capacity of excavation) I did find an interesting little side jaunt about the third bullet point

The reason it is generally not used, I think, is that it is too small for the two actions you use to create it, maxing out in a 5 x 10 strip. Lasting an hour is potentially great, but with such a small area and needing to recast it, that doesn't help much.

Ah, and I just double checked the spell and my thought is ruined. I was thinking you could cast it upon walls, making them difficult terrain for creatures with climb speeds. A minor speed bump, but actually something otherwise impossible to really do.

As is, I think that bullet point might need a buff, it is a cool idea to lay down long-lasting difficult terrain, but it needs to be bigger I think to actually get a lot of usage.

It's probably more useful in dungeons - make a typical five-foot-wide corridor have 1-2 squares of difficult terrain to inhibit charging enemies while you fire arrows at them or something - but yeah, it's not great. Not useless, but could be better.

I wonder if you could convince a whole party to pick up the cantrip, taking Magic Initiate or multiclass dips as needed. A party of 4 could lay down 8 total squares of difficult terrain. 4 per round.

[Boci]

It's probably more useful in dungeons - make a typical five-foot-wide corridor have 1-2 squares of difficult terrain to inhibit charging enemies while you fire arrows at them or something - but yeah, it's not great. Not useless, but could be better.

I wonder if you could convince a whole party to pick up the cantrip, taking Magic Initiate or multiclass dips as needed. A party of 4 could lay down 8 total squares of difficult terrain. 4 per round.

In 3.5 you couldn't charge through difficult terrain, but in 5e isn't that just -5 to the enemy's movement? You'd have to know their speed, and even then you'd be cutting it really fine.

[Keravath]

I don't see how it becomes more efficient to add more people to the procedure just to cast mold earth instead of manually excavating the dirt. I especially don't see why you would bother loosing a layer of dirt with a tool like a Hoe just to move it in smaller increments with Mold Earth when you could shovel it out in those smaller increments instead.

It's only more convenient if the area is already loose earth in a majority of the 5ft casting area, so that you can easily excavate the most area for the least effort. The more extra work you have to do just to cast the spell, the less useful the spell is.

Just curious - have you ever dug a hole in compacted earth?

You jump on the pitch fork to drive it into the ground, move back and forth a bit to loosen it, maybe do this a several times over a few square feet then grab a shovel to lift the dirt out of the hole. Breaking up the dirt is relatively easy (usually) compared to the effort needed to scoop the dirt out of the hole and throw it to the side or some distance away.

Depending on exactly how compacted the earth is, whether it is dirt or clay and how many rocks are in it ... loosening can be much easier than the digging part. This is all just my personal experience from digging planting beds in my back yard that only go down 2-3 feet at most. Auguring 5' x 10" wide holes to pour concrete supports for my deck was a different experience and it can be surprisingly difficult to dig through compacted dirt even with a power augur.

So, loosening the dirt with a tool and then using mold earth to actually do the moving saves a significant amount of effort even if you have to loosen the dirt an 8" layer at a time ...

As for the usage of mold earth, I would typically allow it to dig/move dirt within 5' of the surface ... maybe 10' depending on the conditions ... so as not to make it completely useless ... but except for special circumstances the dirt deeper than that is likely to be pretty hard and wouldn't likely quality as loose earth. (but that would be my ruling in my game :) ... others feel free to be you :) ).

[ProsecutorGodot]

Just curious - have you ever dug a hole in compacted earth?

You jump on the pitch fork to drive it into the ground, move back and forth a bit to loosen it, maybe do this a several times over a few square feet then grab a shovel to lift the dirt out of the hole. Breaking up the dirt is relatively easy (usually) compared to the effort needed to scoop the dirt out of the hole and throw it to the side or some distance away.

Depending on exactly how compacted the earth is, whether it is dirt or clay and how many rocks are in it ... loosening can be much easier than the digging part. This is all just my personal experience from digging planting beds in my back yard that only go down 2-3 feet at most. Auguring 5' x 10" wide holes to pour concrete supports for my deck was a different experience and it can be surprisingly difficult to dig through compacted dirt even with a power augur.

I'll admit to not having a lot of experience personally digging holes, but I never bothered to lose the dirt in this way. If it were too difficult to scoop out in one go I would use the shovel to loose a sizable piece and immediately scoop it out, using half the amount of tools and relatively similar amounts of time.

Or, I'd have an even more efficient tool such as a twist augur that loosens and pulls out dirt all in one go. Roots were the primary obstacle I ran into while digging holes with this tool, lots of trees in my old yard.

I'm not denying that it can be more efficient, but when the scales turns from a few castings of the spell on earth you've tilled out yourself into several hundred castings there was probably a more efficient method. I'll reiterate again too that I'm not going to be a huge stickler about surface layers of dirt unless it's got any reason to be notably more compact than what I would consider typical.

[Segev]

Actually, in conjunction with a functional ability to dig 5 ft. cubes of dirt up and build a mound behind them, the difficult terrain feature becomes more interesting. Still only workable in narrow spaces, but you can do things like make the landing zone for a jump over the pit difficult terrain, potentially catching people up short who thought they had enough to enter but now don't, making them fall prone.

[Chaosmancer]

In 3.5 you couldn't charge through difficult terrain, but in 5e isn't that just -5 to the enemy's movement? You'd have to know their speed, and even then you'd be cutting it really fine.

Technically it is -5 to the enemies movement, but it can get a little trickier.

The rule is that it costs an extra foot to move through difficult terrain (so 5ft costs 10ft), but there are ways to stack it, for example, Spirit Guardians makes the area difficult terrain, through the magic in the air, so if the ground is already difficult terrain then 5 ft costs 15 ft of movement.

But yes, one layer of difficult terrain only slows a group a little bit.


Actually, in conjunction with a functional ability to dig 5 ft. cubes of dirt up and build a mound behind them, the difficult terrain feature becomes more interesting. Still only workable in narrow spaces, but you can do things like make the landing zone for a jump over the pit difficult terrain, potentially catching people up short who thought they had enough to enter but now don't, making them fall prone.


Ah true, I forgot that jumping onto difficult terrain means you have to make a check against falling prone.

[Chaosmancer]

Just curious - have you ever dug a hole in compacted earth?

You jump on the pitch fork to drive it into the ground, move back and forth a bit to loosen it, maybe do this a several times over a few square feet then grab a shovel to lift the dirt out of the hole. Breaking up the dirt is relatively easy (usually) compared to the effort needed to scoop the dirt out of the hole and throw it to the side or some distance away.

Depending on exactly how compacted the earth is, whether it is dirt or clay and how many rocks are in it ... loosening can be much easier than the digging part. This is all just my personal experience from digging planting beds in my back yard that only go down 2-3 feet at most. Auguring 5' x 10" wide holes to pour concrete supports for my deck was a different experience and it can be surprisingly difficult to dig through compacted dirt even with a power augur.

So, loosening the dirt with a tool and then using mold earth to actually do the moving saves a significant amount of effort even if you have to loosen the dirt an 8" layer at a time ...

As for the usage of mold earth, I would typically allow it to dig/move dirt within 5' of the surface ... maybe 10' depending on the conditions ... so as not to make it completely useless ... but except for special circumstances the dirt deeper than that is likely to be pretty hard and wouldn't likely quality as loose earth. (but that would be my ruling in my game :) ... others feel free to be you :) ).


I just want to run some things across this.

The spell as I run it allows you to take a 5x5x5 foot cube of dirt and move it 5ft in six seconds.

If I compare this to digging a hole like I have done before, it is amazing, because that is a big hole.

You are talking about breaking the dirt in a few inches wide area with a tool, grabbing a second tool to scoop the dirt, and throw it maybe a foot or two to the side.

What it seems to be that you are suggesting is that this cantrip is supposed to be used after someone else takes the effort to break the dirt layer a few inches down with a tool in a 5ft square, then the spell just brushes aside the dirt.

And I'm not going to lie, in the real world, where I am able to do in a few seconds work that might take up to a minute, that is nice. But looking at it in the terms of the game, it is pathetic. Because, if we say breaking a few inches into loose soil takes a person about two minutes (a 5 ft square is pretty big) the typical tines and such would be, what, 4 inches? Then to go 5 ft deep would take a half an hour, during which time you would cast the cantrip 15 times.

A cantrip meant to excavate 5 ft deep in a single 6 second casting is now excavating 5 ft deep in 15 castings over the course of a half an hour. Is it still easier than doing it by hand? Sure, might have even cut the time and effort in half over digging a 5 ft cube for a person by hand, but if that was accepted as the way the spell worked, no one would bother taking it.

And, for comparison, look at the Cantrip Shape Water.

This cantrip allows you to move a 5ft cube of water five feet in any direction. That is 37 and a half gallons of water, a pretty sizable aquarium's worth of water. You've dug a hole, how hard do you think it is to move 37.5 gallons? Water is heavy.

And, you can also freeze the water for an hour. Do you know what it does not say? That the water has to be cold or even room temperature. A small hot tub is actually about a 5 ft cube (5'4" x 5'4" x 2'5"). Some back of the napkin math for energy conversions shows about 59.6 megajoules of energy, which is about 14 kilos of TNT exploding.

Absolutely ridiculous right? So why are we going to limit Mold Earth to being a big brush for loose dirt instead of letting it do what it says, Excavate a 5 ft cube of dirt?

[Segev]

And, for comparison, look at the Cantrip Shape Water.

This cantrip allows you to move a 5ft cube of water five feet in any direction. That is 37 and a half gallons of water, a pretty sizable aquarium's worth of water. You've dug a hole, how hard do you think it is to move 37.5 gallons? Water is heavy.

And, you can also freeze the water for an hour. Do you know what it does not say? That the water has to be cold or even room temperature. A small hot tub is actually about a 5 ft cube (5'4" x 5'4" x 2'5"). Some back of the napkin math for energy conversions shows about 59.6 megajoules of energy, which is about 14 kilos of TNT exploding.

Absolutely ridiculous right? So why are we going to limit Mold Earth to being a big brush for loose dirt instead of letting it do what it says, Excavate a 5 ft cube of dirt?

Incidentally, it also magically keeps the water frozen for an hour, after which it goes back to normal. Hypothetically, this could mean your hot tub full of ice suddenly becomes hot water again.

[deljzc]

A cubic FOOT of earth weighs 100-120 lbs (depends on how much it's compacted).

I don't think you guys realize how much dirt a 5'x5'x5' "hole" is. That is 13,750 lbs. of earth. Your read that correctly. Almost 6.5 TONS.

And anyone that has tried to dig anything more than 8-12" into the ground (through loose topsoil) knows you can't just use a spade shovel. It just gets too hard (unless you are at the beach).

The most effective methods of loosening dirt by hand are a) a digging iron or b) a pick axe. Both are very specific tools that have been around forever for a very good reason. A digging iron is long and narrow and is used for vertical holes. A pick is used everywhere else.

Unfortunately, the cantrip system in D&D 5e really destroys the "reality" of some very rudimentary social functions. Move Earth is a huge example.

[Segev]

Unfortunately, the cantrip system in D&D 5e really destroys the "reality" of some very rudimentary social functions. Move Earth is a huge example.

"Social functions?" I'm not sure I follow.

[Sam113097]

Sorry, I mistyped that, corrected in edit. I meant to say 60 feet long. The 1-in-6 was rolled every time someone fell in, but damned if I didn't roll every number except 1.



Respectfully, this kind of bothers me, because it feels like you're makes some assumptions here. One, I'm the DM, and I ruled mold earth could build the pits. Ergo, at my table, mold earth could build the pits. If you rule differently, that's OK, because that's your table, your players, and your priorities of play. Two, you're assuming that they cared about hiding the dirt at all - they built a whole bunch of friggin earthworks behind the trench and disguised it as a hill with hallucinatory terrain. Three, you're assuming the orcs are rational, optimized actors. I played these guys as all kinds of friggin nuts (due to story considerations). So some of them fell in, but others tried jumping the pit (they really hate this druidess).

I get it, for some players this might break immersion. I personally don't care - the point is that the heroes got to feel freaking awesome, and they knew that awesomeness was due to their plan, not the bad guys. It's OK to let the heroes feel cool on their terms, y'all. Now, some of you seem concerned that players could use a cantrip to trample all over the world. That's a totally valid concern. It's also trivially easy to solve. The orcs might change their plans (like these orcs did), they might start figuring out the heroes like using pit traps and moving slowly (or, more diabolically, just gathering a bunch of people up in a group and moving them forward as a combination human shield/trap detector), they might have someone toss an augury up before they decide to engage, etc.

The point of the conversation here is that new, fun, and emergent lines of play come out of working with your players and giving them some leeway on their tools. The mechanical discussion, frankly, bores me.

In my opinion, this mechanical discussion is overshadowing the fun, memorable experience that occurred in-game thanks to this cantrip. I loved reading the interesting, "awesome" account of how the players did recon and prepared for the battle; I think that, as I understand it, the point that OP was trying to make is that creative use of Mold Earth made what would have otherwise been a standard battle against an army of angry orcs into a much more interesting role-playing experience for the players.

[Spo]

One, I'm the DM, and I ruled mold earth could build the pits. Ergo, at my table, mold earth could build the pits.



Think a lot of the debate here would not be happening if the OP simply stated at the beginning of this thread that he homebrewed a cantrip that allows players to do X and they had fun with it.

[Mr Adventurer]

Technically it is -5 to the enemies movement, but it can get a little trickier.

The rule is that it costs an extra foot to move through difficult terrain (so 5ft costs 10ft), but there are ways to stack it, for example, Spirit Guardians makes the area difficult terrain, through the magic in the air, so if the ground is already difficult terrain then 5 ft costs 15 ft of movement.

But yes, one layer of difficult terrain only slows a group a little bit.

I don't think difficult terrain stacks that way.

[Chaosmancer]

A cubic FOOT of earth weighs 100-120 lbs (depends on how much it's compacted).

I don't think you guys realize how much dirt a 5'x5'x5' "hole" is. That is 13,750 lbs. of earth. Your read that correctly. Almost 6.5 TONS.

I found a cubic foot of earth weighing 74 to 110 lbs, so it can be far less. Also, 100 per cubic ft, 5 cubic ft would be 500 lbs, over half less than you are saying. Not sure where you got 13,750 at all

And, remember that shape water cantrip? Water is 62.4 per cubic foot, so a few hundred pounds of movement.




And anyone that has tried to dig anything more than 8-12" into the ground (through loose topsoil) knows you can't just use a spade shovel. It just gets too hard (unless you are at the beach).

The most effective methods of loosening dirt by hand are a) a digging iron or b) a pick axe. Both are very specific tools that have been around forever for a very good reason. A digging iron is long and narrow and is used for vertical holes. A pick is used everywhere else.

And? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here



Unfortunately, the cantrip system in D&D 5e really destroys the "reality" of some very rudimentary social functions. Move Earth is a huge example.

Move Earth is also a 6th level spell, not a cantrip.

And yes, cantrips can take the place of mundane tasks. That is sort of the point of them. Don't need to wash the dishes by hand if you can just use Prestidigitation after all.







I don't think difficult terrain stacks that way.

Effects from the same source do not stack, but from different sources, they do.

So, If Web is difficult terrain because of moving through the 3D space, and the loose gravel is difficult terrain because of the ground, then the two effects would stack.

Just like if you take damage from Spike Growth and from Spirit Guardians. Both Spells apply because they are not interfering

[ProsecutorGodot]

Effects from the same source do not stack, but from different sources, they do.

So, If Web is difficult terrain because of moving through the 3D space, and the loose gravel is difficult terrain because of the ground, then the two effects would stack.

Difficult terrain effects do not stack.

Every foot of movement in difficult terrain costs 1 extra foot. This rule is true even if multiple things in a space count as difficult terrain.

[Chaosmancer]

Difficult terrain effects do not stack.

Really, where is that from?

I could see it from something like entangle and a slick surface like ice, because both are on the ground, but somethings don't make sense to cancel each other out.

[Mr Adventurer]

Really, where is that from?

I could see it from something like entangle and a slick surface like ice, because both are on the ground, but somethings don't make sense to cancel each other out.

You keep referring to this idea that difficult terrain in a different locus in a space - in the air versus on the ground - should stack, but I think you are mistaken. I haven't seen anything in 5e that would imply that.

Edit: I also think that running it that way opens you up to having to make all sorts of rulings that you don't need to. Unsupported Web collapses onto the ground 5' deep - does it still stack with icy ground?

The rule you're querying is the core rules for difficult terrain: https://5e.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementandPosition.htm#difficultTerrain

[Chaosmancer]

You keep referring to this idea that difficult terrain in a different locus in a space - in the air versus on the ground - should stack, but I think you are mistaken. I haven't seen anything in 5e that would imply that.

Edit: I also think that running it that way opens you up to having to make all sorts of rulings that you don't need to. Unsupported Web collapses onto the ground 5' deep - does it still stack with icy ground?

The rule you're querying is the core rules for difficult terrain: https://5e.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementandPosition.htm#difficultTerrain

Spirit Guardians says that the entire area is difficult terrain, same with web. those things do not necessarily affect the ground, they are affecting the "space"

I think the intent of the rule is the idea that, for example, a bog with rubble does not cost double, since a bog and rubble are both difficult terrain. But, I see where it is all coming from now.

Makes plant growth and other effects that increase the penalty for difficult terrain more even more powerful though.

I like making some effects stack, so I guess it is now a houserule instead of just an interaction.

[Mellack]

I found a cubic foot of earth weighing 74 to 110 lbs, so it can be far less. Also, 100 per cubic ft, 5 cubic ft would be 500 lbs, over half less than you are saying. Not sure where you got 13,750 at all

And, remember that shape water cantrip? Water is 62.4 per cubic foot, so a few hundred pounds of movement.




Gotta fix this one here. It is a 5 foot cube, not 5 cubic feet. So it is 5x5x5 feet for 125 cubic feet. At the 100# each you get 12,500 pounds or over 6 tons. Water would be about 2/3 of that.

As another mentioned, shape water never mentions changing the temperature. Considering it specifies that it unfreezes in one hour and is a magical process, it could be imagined as being ice of the same temperature it was before the casting.

[Chaosmancer]

Gotta fix this one here. It is a 5 foot cube, not 5 cubic feet. So it is 5x5x5 feet for 125 cubic feet. At the 100# each you get 12,500 pounds or over 6 tons. Water would be about 2/3 of that.

Ah, I see my mistake. This is what I get for speeding through the process. Thank you.

Still, that would put you at moving almost 4 tons of water to, so I don't see how the weight is meant to show anything at all.


As another mentioned, shape water never mentions changing the temperature. Considering it specifies that it unfreezes in one hour and is a magical process, it could be imagined as being ice of the same temperature it was before the casting.

That would be freaky. I think if it could make ice hold together while boiling that would actually take more energy, since it breaks the laws of physics over it's knees. You would need to provide constant pressure at a molecular level... yeah, nope. That is just too much for me.

[Mellack]

That would be freaky. I think if it could make ice hold together while boiling that would actually take more energy, since it breaks the laws of physics over it's knees. You would need to provide constant pressure at a molecular level... yeah, nope. That is just too much for me.

It is already freaky. It says it stays frozen for an hour. That means RAW you could throw that chunk of ice in lava and it would stay ice. That means it is doing exactly what you said, it is somehow holding those atoms in a crystalline form (assuming D&D has atoms). I don't think having it do so with the ice itself being hot is much difference myself. I consider that less freaky than it being an infinite heat sink.

[Zalabim]

Spirit Guardians says that the entire area is difficult terrain, same with web. those things do not necessarily affect the ground, they are affecting the "space"
I think there are other examples of making the very air difficult terrain, maybe Sleet Storm, but Spirit Guardians is not one of them. Creatures affected by Spirit Guardians have their speed halved. It has distinctly different results.
/Derail

[Chaosmancer]

I think there are other examples of making the very air difficult terrain, maybe Sleet Storm, but Spirit Guardians is not one of them. Creatures affected by Spirit Guardians have their speed halved. It has distinctly different results.
/Derail

Oh is it worded as halved? Been a while since I read it so I thought it said the area was difficult terrain

[MaxWilson]

It is already freaky. It says it stays frozen for an hour. That means RAW you could throw that chunk of ice in lava and it would stay ice. That means it is doing exactly what you said, it is somehow holding those atoms in a crystalline form (assuming D&D has atoms). I don't think having it do so with the ice itself being hot is much difference myself. I consider that less freaky than it being an infinite heat sink.

Or maybe it's just elemental Ice (mix of water and air) even when you throw it in lava and get burned, vaporized, or destroyed ice.

There's not necessarily any guarantee your PCs are made out of cells, let alone atoms. They sure don't exert gravitational force the way real life human bodies do (D&D gravity is binary, and is only created by bodies of a certain size).