Equipment Houserules

[ZenBear]

I'm curious to get feedback on this.

Heavy/Medium Armor Proficiency changed to Martial Armor, Light Armor changed to Simple, heavy armor stat requirements changed to 14/16 STR.

Bows, longswords, and spears given the Finesse property, spears lose Thrown and gain Reach.

The purpose of these changes are made to alleviate the disparity between DEX and STR. DEX builds gain access to a couple Versatile weapons with different pros/cons, and this allows Rogues to get sneak attack with the longswords they're proficient in but never use. It should be noted this does not let them use Polearm Master as spears are ironically not on the list of weapons that work with the Feat. STR characters can be safely built from level 1 without needing to start as a Fighter/Paladin/Cleric or take a feat, and gain an effective long range combat option.

Thoughts?

[HappyDaze]

It should be noted this does not let them use Polearm Master as spears are ironically not on the list of weapons that work with the Feat.

Thoughts?

Errata says otherwise.

[ZenBear]

Errata says otherwise.

Ah, well scratch that one then.

[Keltest]

So, i believe the pike is intended to represent the two handed long reaching spear that youre attempting to model here. The regular spear with the thrown property is intended to be more of a skirmisher's weapon than one that you would expect soldiers to use in formation fighting. As it is, you've pretty much rendered the spear better than the pike in every way, since you can use a shield with it AND benefit from high dex, and you still have the same damage and range as with a pike while only using one hand, and small characters can use it without penalty, to boot.

[ZenBear]

So, i believe the pike is intended to represent the two handed long reaching spear that youre attempting to model here. The regular spear with the thrown property is intended to be more of a skirmisher's weapon than one that you would expect soldiers to use in formation fighting. As it is, you've pretty much rendered the spear better than the pike in every way, since you can use a shield with it AND benefit from high dex, and you still have the same damage and range as with a pike while only using one hand, and small characters can use it without penalty, to boot.

Well the spear (according to the PHB, I'm not looking at errata atm) is d6/d8, where the pike is d10. Not a huge difference, but that's standard 5e weapon dice for ya. I get what they were going for, but I feel the spear and javelin are redundant. As it stands Rogues don't have access to Versatile or Reach, and I want to allow for a Prince Oberyn type character to be more SAD.

[JackPhoenix]

Heavy/Medium Armor Proficiency changed to Martial Armor, Light Armor changed to Simple, heavy armor stat requirements changed to 14/16 STR.

But.... why? What's the point? What does that even mean?


DEX builds gain access to a couple Versatile weapons with different pros/cons

Which one has cons? Finesse longsword is straight up better than any other finesse weapon, same with spear comparable to the only other reach finesse weapon, in addition to working with PAM. Neither is light, but PAM > TWF anyway.


As it stands Rogues don't have access to Versatile or Reach, and I want to allow for a Prince Oberyn type character to be more SAD.

They do have access to versatile through the lightsaber few finessable longswords, and if they want reach, they can get whip.

[Keltest]

Well the spear (according to the PHB, I'm not looking at errata atm) is d6/d8, where the pike is d10. Not a huge difference, but that's standard 5e weapon dice for ya. I get what they were going for, but I feel the spear and javelin are redundant. As it stands Rogues don't have access to Versatile or Reach, and I want to allow for a Prince Oberyn type character to be more SAD.

Curious. I look on the SRD and it says a pike is a D6. Are you looking at an original printing of the PHB?

[ZenBear]

But.... why? What's the point? What does that even mean?
Classes that have access to Medium but not Heavy now get both. More classes can be rolled with 14 STR instead of 14 DEX.


Which one has cons? Finesse longsword is straight up better than any other finesse weapon, same with spear comparable to the only other reach finesse weapon, in addition to working with PAM. Neither is light, but PAM > TWF anyway.

Between the two, longsword gets higher damage while spear gets reach. A rapier is just as good as a longsword if you never plan to use the Versatile quality and deals piercing instead of slashing, and sans-Dual Wielder only the shortsword and/or dagger can be dual wielded. Again, not huge differences but still relevant in niche circumstances. PAM is a problem post-errata, so either do without the spear being finesse or do without PAM.

[ZenBear]

Curious. I look on the SRD and it says a pike is a D6. Are you looking at an original printing of the PHB?

D&D Beyond says 1d10, Heavy, Reach, Two-Handed.

[Lille]

Curious. I look on the SRD and it says a pike is a D6. Are you looking at an original printing of the PHB?

I'm pretty sure all PHB printings list as d10, as well as most or all SRD-type sources.

[JackPhoenix]

Classes that have access to Medium but not Heavy now get both. More classes can be rolled with 14 STR instead of 14 DEX.

So now every cleric is heavy armor cleric, hexblade is even more SAD now, as they don't need even the bit of Dex for the extra AC, rangers are running around in plate, which just doesn't fit them at all, dwarves and githyanki get heavy armor proficiency for free, anyone can get heavy armor proficiency through multiclassing without having to consider in which order to pick the classes (yes, I would like both heavy armor and Con proficiency on a sorcadin, thank you very much), and propably some other I can't be bothered to think of.

And barbarians (and monks and druids) are still screwed.


Curious. I look on the SRD and it says a pike is a D6. Are you looking at an original printing of the PHB?

If you mean https://5e.d20srd.org/, ignore it. That thing's got a ton of errors.

[thoroughlyS]

Curious. I look on the SRD and it says a pike is a D6. Are you looking at an original printing of the PHB?
The SRD on the WotC (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srd) website says 1d10. I would replace whatever source you use.

[Martin Greywolf]

I'm gonna look at this from a "stabs people with spears and swords for fun IRL" perspective.



Heavy/Medium Armor Proficiency changed to Martial Armor, Light Armor changed to Simple


Historically speaking, almost all armor is martial armor, with the exception of emergency stuff like strapping a bunch of straw with tar to yourself. And there are some very heavy armors that are simple in manufacture, it's way easier to mass-produce simple munitions-grade breastplate than a chain shirt.

Merging three categories into two, well, why not. Light, medium, heavy division goes by medium armor restricts you by weight, heavy also restricts your breathing and vision by helmet - or at least it should be like that. Two categories should go by is or is not trivially easy to use.

Thing is, armor already makes no gosh darned sense in DnD, and any attempt to fix it will have reprecussions to balance, especially at low levels. 5e especially made AC much, much harder to get, so making it more accessible isn't necessarily a good idea.



heavy armor stat requirements changed to 14/16 STR.


Honestly, the idea that you need to be strong to use armor is already bad enough, no need to make it worse. Let's also not forget that halfplate, which had chain mail as a component, somehow doesn't have a strength requirement while standalone chain mail does, and ring mail doesn't exist. And plate armor being lighter by a third when compared to chain mail is also not a thing, apparently.

Moreover, I don't see what the purpose of this is. You delay some of the STR based characters from getting shiny new toys? They are much more likely to dump stats more and grumble about it.



Bows, longswords, and spears given the Finesse property,


Bows should really, really be strength only. Go shoot a 50 lbs bow for five minutes to see why. Longswords being finesse, yeah, that checks out, but so should most melee weapons that aren't axes or maces.

And how are quarterstaffs not finesse when spears are? Removing the metal bits only made them lighter...




spears lose Thrown and gain Reach.


Not only is throwing a spear and then drawing a sword iconic, it's also really, really effective. People may call you names afterwards if you do it to them, but the gentleman in question did have a proper lamellar armor and could take a gently-thrown spear to the chest, so...

Let's talk about reach. Thing is, we are operating at a level of detail where it disappears in DnD, mostly because of 5 ft square. If both you and your opponent are standing at the backs of your respective squares, there's about 8 feet, or 2.6 meters distance between you. Your typical medieval infantry spear is about 2-2.5 meters (6-7 feet), cavalry lance is 3 to 4 meters (9-12 feet), pike is 5-6 (15-18 feet).

From that perspective, reach weapon has to reach at least 15 feet (5 meters) without shenanigans. Pike can do that, cavalry lance can maybe do it, spear definitely can't. My greatest moment of glory was with lancing a 2 meter spear - that means grabbing it in one hand only and lunging as far as I could - and killing a guy in the middle of a shield wall through the gap. That was a distance of about 3.5-4 meters (11-12 feet), and I only pulled it off by noticing no one was looking at me in that moment. It was barely enough to be a reach weapon range, but it was so risky that you should need a feat for that. I do use lancing fairly often, but it lands very sporadically, I only got two or three good hits in a decade of being an utter bastard of a spearman.

The question, then, is as follows: should halberd and glaive be reach weapons? And the answer here is, maybe. Some hablerds and glaives were about the cavalry lance length, some weren't.

[WaroftheCrans]

Making more weapons dex just makes it far easier for people to dump strength. As it is, dex is a lot more useful than strength in 5e, unless you're trying to grapple or wear heavy armor. Dex dictates several skill checks, is the more common saving throw, is used in initiative and most importantly determines AC for all those who don't use heavy armor.

This would just incentivize more and more characters to dump strength, and while it would solve some MAD issues, it would also make strength pretty much a given dump stat for any non GWM characters.

[OldTrees1]

I'm gonna look at this from a "stabs people with spears and swords for fun IRL" perspective.

Bows should really, really be strength only. Go shoot a 50 lbs bow for five minutes to see why. Longswords being finesse, yeah, that checks out, but so should most melee weapons that aren't axes or maces.


Double checking, from that perspective shouldn't Strength and Dex be closely related and every weapon require and benefit from both?

Even a Rapier (primarily benefiting from dexterity) could benefit from strength and Axes (primarily benefiting from strength) could benefit from dexterity.

[PhantomSoul]

Double checking, from that perspective shouldn't Strength and Dex be closely related and every weapon require and benefit from both?

Even a Rapier (primarily benefiting from dexterity) could benefit from strength and Axes (primarily benefiting from strength) could benefit from dexterity.

TBH, I do wish Finesse Weapons only changed the Attack Roll Modifier, not the Damage Roll Modifier. (Even if I do get that HP and attacks and damage are an abstraction and all that.)

[Martin Greywolf]

Double checking, from that perspective shouldn't Strength and Dex be closely related and every weapon require and benefit from both?

Require no, I've shown some techniques with a longsword to six year old children and small grannies, and they were able to do them just fine. Not as well as someone with better physicality, but well enough to be dangerous attacks.

Benefit, absolutely. We get into Dex and Str being two branches of the same tree - while mutually exclusive at relatively high fitness level, they are the same for most of the way there. Bruce Lee may have been Dex focused, but odds are he could bench press more than us.


Even a Rapier (primarily benefiting from dexterity)

You have either never used a rapier, or used it so much you forgot just how damn difficult it is for an untrained person to use it. It has same weight and length as a longsword, and you only use one hand to control it. Ironically enough, least strength required and most dex weapons are a spear and a sword for two hands (so, longswords and bastard swords), anything one handed will tax your strength. Well, a smallsword won't, but that's going outside of DnD time scope.

Having used all the weapons in PHB at least a bit, I'd say that:

STR:

greatclub
mace
any bow
battleaxe
flail
greataxe
greatsword
halberd
maul
morningstar
warhammer
rapier
warpick


DEX:

dagger
javelin
sickle
spear
crossbow
dart
sling
longsword
pike
scimitar
shortsword
trident
whip
blowgun


Both:

glaive
club
handaxe
light hammer
quarterstaff
lance


Some, like rapier, belong there because they need that stat to be used well, others, like quarterstaff, belong where they are because there are several ways of using them. Others still, like mace or spear, belong where they are because you use them in a specific way or against a specific target, and any other use is marginal.

[OldTrees1]

Require no, I've shown some techniques with a longsword to six year old children and small grannies, and they were able to do them just fine. Not as well as someone with better physicality, but well enough to be dangerous attacks.

Benefit, absolutely. We get into Dex and Str being two branches of the same tree - while mutually exclusive at relatively high fitness level, they are the same for most of the way there. Bruce Lee may have been Dex focused, but odds are he could bench press more than us.

Thanks for your knowledge.


You have either never used a rapier, or used it so much you forgot just how damn difficult it is for an untrained person to use it.

I have fenced with a foil and sparred with a wooden saber. I found point control to require more dexterity than edge control. It requires more strength too, but I felt my dexterity was taxed faster. But a foil is not as heavy as a rapier so I easily underestimate the strength required. So I defer to your expertise (I did ask for it after all).

[ZenBear]

Unforseen feat/class interactions aside, the purpose of these changes is to grant Rogues the ability to use Sneak Attack the longswords they're proficient in, allow a DEX-based Oberyn Martell style character to exist, and make STR builds more viable by allowing them a decent long range option and allowing more classes to actually be STR based by giving them access to heavy armor. There are bound to be a great many issues that this introduces, some of which have been pointed out, but hopefully you all get the gist. D&D is shackled by its history, so some issues can't be resolved without a much larger overhaul of the system that just won't happen.

[Evaar]

I think allowing finesse-able spears is fine even with Polearm Master; just require that the character be wielding the spear in both hands in order to get the finesse property’s benefits and don’t add Reach.

It’s Versatile so that gives it a 1d8 damage die, like a rapier you’re using in both hands. But you can get Polearm Master to give yourself a bonus action attack option - or you could save yourself a feat and just grab two short swords for 2d6 total damage dice instead of 1d8/1d4. Given that two short swords was always an option, it’s hard to see this really breaking the game. They do get the off turn opportunity attack trigger, which is valuable, but they’re spending a feat so... shouldn’t they get something valuable?

Seems fine. They can play Oberyn.

[KorvinStarmast]

Double checking, from that perspective sh The game you are seeking is Tunnels and Trolls. Their weapons set up does exactly that. Weapons are gated behind various STR and DEX combinations.

[Avonar]

I've played a Rogue with a finesse longsword (Sun Sword), and let me tell you it was pretty busted.

Now I'm sure there's room to argue here, but with the combination of Sneak Attack and the Great Weapon Fighthing style, I could reroll all 1s and 2s on the whole attack, including sneak attack. After all, GWF says "When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll." Sneak attack are damage dice for an attack made with a melee weapon surely?

This took the already high damage of the rogue and just made it even more consistently powerful. So I would be careful about allowing finesse longswords. Flavour is nice, but making it a flat upgrade to everything else is something to be wary of.

[HappyDaze]

After all, GWF says

No room to argue. Official answer is that the reroll is only on the weapon's base damage die/dice, so "pretty busted" only happened because you strayed outside the rules.

[Martin Greywolf]

But a foil is not as heavy as a rapier so I easily underestimate the strength required.

It's not just weight. Okay, that's partially it, Olympic fencing weapons are 500 or 775 grams max - for comparision, there are some very short sabers in Istanbul museum from Ottoman times that clock in at 650 grams or so. They are heavily suspected for being ceremonial or decorative. You usually operate in 900-1500 gram range.

Still, it's not the weight. It's the length of the rapier that really does you in - epee is 90cm from guard to tip, equalling most arming swords. A rapier starts at that length and ends at about 150cm, with most being about 120cm. That may not seem much of an increase, but coupled with weight and having to hold it in front of you pretty much all the time you are in measure?

Then and again, perhaps that is not Str or Dex at all, perhaps that sort of lasting muscle ability should be instead rolled into Con - but that would make Con even more of a super-stat than it already is.

[Avonar]

No room to argue. Official answer is that the reroll is only on the weapon's base damage die/dice, so "pretty busted" only happened because you strayed outside the rules.

But it never says the word "base" or "weapon" or any of that. It says damage dice resulting from a melee weapon attack. That's what the sneak attack is.

[ZenBear]

I've played a Rogue with a finesse longsword (Sun Sword), and let me tell you it was pretty busted.

Now I'm sure there's room to argue here, but with the combination of Sneak Attack and the Great Weapon Fighthing style, I could reroll all 1s and 2s on the whole attack, including sneak attack. After all, GWF says "When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll." Sneak attack are damage dice for an attack made with a melee weapon surely?

This took the already high damage of the rogue and just made it even more consistently powerful. So I would be careful about allowing finesse longswords. Flavour is nice, but making it a flat upgrade to everything else is something to be wary of.
Fair enough. As I said, this notion runs into a lot of issues like this and that's why I asked the forum. I think HappyDaze is referencing some errata or twitter clarification from the creators. Since I'm homebrewing rules anyway, I can just add this into the equation to prevent such abuse.

[Maelynn]

No room to argue. Official answer is that the reroll is only on the weapon's base damage die/dice, so "pretty busted" only happened because you strayed outside the rules.
But it never says the word "base" or "weapon" or any of that. It says damage dice resulting from a melee weapon attack. That's what the sneak attack is.

According to this Sage Advice (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-april-2016), the GWF rules are 'meant to benefit only the damage roll of the weapon used with the feature'. Nothing else, so sneak attack wouldn't get a reroll either.