Gestalt build for soloing a campaign.

[Misterwhisper]

Ok to sum up, my friend and I have all the adventure modules and we decided to run one each for a solo campaign. To make things a little more fair on the player that can make a gestalt build with some better starting stuff. We came up with 2 choices.

Choice A: multi class gestalt


Stats: ignore racial bonuses get stats of 10, 12, 14, 14, 16, 18
Hd: best of the two, max hp at each level
Skills: best of the two
Tools: all from both
Languages: all from both if applicable
Saves: 1 of choice from each class
ASI: get ones as normal + any from bonus in class like fighter or rogue.
Class abilities: gets both but they don’t stack if having the same name, however, if both get extra attack, they get a new one at 11.
Casting: can pick spells from either class using the casting slots as used in multiclassing. Casting stat is dependent on the class the spell came from.

OR

Choice 2: single class gestalt

Stats: ignore racial bonus and get - 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20
HD: + 1 die size, max hp each level, barbarian get + 2 hp each level
Skills: + 1 extra and 1 expertise
Tools: as from class and background +1
Languages; as normal + 1
Saves: as from class + 1 of dex, con, or wis
ASI: every 3 levels and bonus feat at level 1.
Class abilities: pick one class, get two subclasses, but no multiclassing. Warlock is two patrons not two pacts.
If your class does not get extra attack they get one at 5, if they do, get extra at 11, fighters get extra style at 11.
Casting: as normal for class but at every new spell level you can learn one spell of your next lower level from any class.
Ex: if you are a level 5 Druid, you can learn one level 2 spell from any class.


Starts at level 2:
500g and one uncommon item.

So what builds to come up with:

[Bobthewizard]

For choice A, I'd make an Ancients Paladin with either Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock. That should give you enough healing and crowd control to go with the Paladin for combat. There are other options, though. Hexblade/Swords Bard would be good. Cleric/Wizard for all the spells. Fighter/Artificer.

For choice B, it's harder. Eliminate wizard and sorcerer for durability. No barbarian, fighter or rogue due to lacking healing. I think I'll vote for a Druid. Mix Moon and Shepherd for wildshape and summoning.

Ranger might be good too. Mixing Hunter and Gloomstalker gives you two extra attacks in the opening round of each combat but the spells come on slower. Warlock with Celestial and Hexblade might give you enough healing and melee. I'm sure there are a couple Cleric classes that would make this work but I don't play clerics much.

[Greywander]

First, a critique of what you have here, then my own gestalt rules that I've used before.


Stats: ignore racial bonuses get stats of 10, 12, 14, 14, 16, 18
Why? Gestalt only affects your class and class levels, not your race or ability scores.


Hd: best of the two, max hp at each level
Why max HP? You could roll both hit dice instead to determine HP growth, but only give them the larger hit die for short rest healing.


Skills: best of the two
So if I start as a bard/ranger, I only have three skills (+2 from my background), but if I start as a bard/fighter then multiclass into ranger I get four skills? This is why in my rules below I do "get all the skills of both classes, minus two". Most classes only give two skills, so normally it means you just get the skills of one class, but in the case of a bard/ranger you would get four skills since they both give three.


Tools: all from both
Languages: all from both if applicable
Nothing wrong here.


Saves: 1 of choice from each class
Keep in mind that there's an understanding that saves are divided into strong saves (DEX, CON, and WIS) and weak saves (STR, INT, and CHA). Strong saves are called for much more often, so it's usually more valuable to have proficiency in a strong save rather than a weak save. All the classes give proficiency with one strong and one weak save. You should probably keep it that way.


ASI: get ones as normal + any from bonus in class like fighter or rogue.
I'm not actually sure what you're saying here, do they get ASIs from both classes or just one? Keep in mind that ASIs are class features. There's nothing wrong with getting ASIs from both classes (though some people seem to want to curb this). It makes it easier to build MAD characters (and gestalts are much more likely to be MAD) as well as providing more breathing room to pick up feats.


Class abilities: gets both but they don’t stack if having the same name, however, if both get extra attack, they get a new one at 11.
The multiclassing rules already cover this. Things like Unarmored Defense replace your AC calculation with a different one, so they can't stack (but you get to choose which one to use). Extra Attack also does not stack, and I would keep it that way. My houserule is to give a +1 to an ability score instead of a redundant Extra Attack.


Casting: can pick spells from either class using the casting slots as used in multiclassing. Casting stat is dependent on the class the spell came from.
Yup, just use the multiclass rules that already exist. It's simpler, and there are already rules for it. Good call here, I just don't get why you didn't do this more.


Choice 2: single class gestalt
While there is some flexibility on exactly how many extra class levels a gestalt could get (e.g. gaining three or four class levels with each level up, or only gaining a second class level on every second or third level up), I don't think there's such a thing as a "single class gestalt". The entire point of a gestalt is having more than one class, so you'll need to explain what you mean by this.


Stats: ignore racial bonus and get - 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20
HD: + 1 die size, max hp each level, barbarian get + 2 hp each level
Skills: + 1 extra and 1 expertise
Tools: as from class and background +1
Languages; as normal + 1
Saves: as from class + 1 of dex, con, or wis
ASI: every 3 levels and bonus feat at level 1.
Class abilities: pick one class, get two subclasses, but no multiclassing. Warlock is two patrons not two pacts.
If your class does not get extra attack they get one at 5, if they do, get extra at 11, fighters get extra style at 11.
Casting: as normal for class but at every new spell level you can learn one spell of your next lower level from any class.
Ex: if you are a level 5 Druid, you can learn one level 2 spell from any class.
Ah, I think I see it a bit better. They're taking a single class, but with two subclasses, and can grab some features (spells) from other classes. Personally, I kind of feel like this is more complicated than a non-gestalt character and doesn't fulfill the same function a gestalt would. In other words, I think you're better off with either a gestalt (i.e. two classes) or a regular non-gestalt.


Starts at level 2:
500g and one uncommon item.
This at least solves the problem of deciding which equipment package to use.

Greywander's Gestalt Rules - Sumarized

Proficiencies. Gain the weapon, armor, tool, and language proficiencies of both starting classes. Gain the skill proficiencies of both classes, minus two, chosen from the combined skill list of both classes. Choose one strong save (DEX, CON, WIS) and one weak save (STR, INT, CHA) from those available to those classes. Choose the starting equipment of one class or the other.

Gestalt characters still only have one race and one background.

Hit Points. At 1st level and whenever you gain a level, you use the larger of the two hit dice to determine how many HP you gain. The unused hit die contributes a small bonus to HP: a d6 gives nothing, a d8 gives +1, a d10 gives +2, and a d12 gives +3. You only have a number of hit dice equal to your character level, so when you gain a level you take the larger hit die and may "bank" the smaller hit die for possible later use. If you gain a hit die that is smaller than one in your "bank", you may switch them (this doesn't affect HP gains, only your hit dice).

Spell Slots. The gestalt character determines their caster level using all their class levels. For example, a 10th level character who is a cleric 10 / wizard 10 is a 20th level caster and has 9th level spell slots. However, caster level caps at 20. Pact magic slots are separate from regular spell slots, making warlock a good multiclass option for gestalt casters.

If this feels too strong, then cap caster level at your character level. This means that a cleric 10 /wizard 10 could go full non-caster with their remaining levels and still get spell slots at every level up, and also that leveling two half-casters would give full caster spell slot progression.

Multiclassing. Whenever a gestalt character gains a level, they can increase their level by one in two different classes, or their level by two in a single class. Your level in a class can't be higher than your character level. All the normal multiclass rules still apply, except at 1st level as indicated above in the "Proficiencies" section.

What I like about my gestalt rules is that it treats all classes equally, allows mutliclassing with no extra hassle, and doesn't care about the order in which class levels are taken. For HP and HD, for example, you always end up with the same average HP and the same HD, regardless of the order those class levels are taken.

Alternatively...

While gestalting does help insure that a small party can fill all the party roles they need to get through a campaign, it doesn't help with the core problem of a small party: the action economy. A horde of goblins can easily overwhelm them through sheer numbers, and a single failed save can spell disaster. As such, you might want to take a look at Heroic Resistance and Actions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596581-Solo-small-party-Try-Heroic-Resistance-Actions).

[CTurbo]

A Paladin with 2 Oaths would be super awesome assuming 7th level Auras stack.

A single class gestalt build, assuming you meant a single class with 2 subclasses, is odd though.

Nearly any two classes smashed together are going to be really powerful. I don't it's possible to mess that up.

I agree that action economy is more important that "more power"

[Misterwhisper]

First, a critique of what you have here, then my own gestalt rules that I've used before.


Why? Gestalt only affects your class and class levels, not your race or ability scores.


Why max HP? You could roll both hit dice instead to determine HP growth, but only give them the larger hit die for short rest healing.


So if I start as a bard/ranger, I only have three skills (+2 from my background), but if I start as a bard/fighter then multiclass into ranger I get four skills? This is why in my rules below I do "get all the skills of both classes, minus two". Most classes only give two skills, so normally it means you just get the skills of one class, but in the case of a bard/ranger you would get four skills since they both give three.


Nothing wrong here.


Keep in mind that there's an understanding that saves are divided into strong saves (DEX, CON, and WIS) and weak saves (STR, INT, and CHA). Strong saves are called for much more often, so it's usually more valuable to have proficiency in a strong save rather than a weak save. All the classes give proficiency with one strong and one weak save. You should probably keep it that way.


I'm not actually sure what you're saying here, do they get ASIs from both classes or just one? Keep in mind that ASIs are class features. There's nothing wrong with getting ASIs from both classes (though some people seem to want to curb this). It makes it easier to build MAD characters (and gestalts are much more likely to be MAD) as well as providing more breathing room to pick up feats.


The multiclassing rules already cover this. Things like Unarmored Defense replace your AC calculation with a different one, so they can't stack (but you get to choose which one to use). Extra Attack also does not stack, and I would keep it that way. My houserule is to give a +1 to an ability score instead of a redundant Extra Attack.


Yup, just use the multiclass rules that already exist. It's simpler, and there are already rules for it. Good call here, I just don't get why you didn't do this more.


While there is some flexibility on exactly how many extra class levels a gestalt could get (e.g. gaining three or four class levels with each level up, or only gaining a second class level on every second or third level up), I don't think there's such a thing as a "single class gestalt". The entire point of a gestalt is having more than one class, so you'll need to explain what you mean by this.


Ah, I think I see it a bit better. They're taking a single class, but with two subclasses, and can grab some features (spells) from other classes. Personally, I kind of feel like this is more complicated than a non-gestalt character and doesn't fulfill the same function a gestalt would. In other words, I think you're better off with either a gestalt (i.e. two classes) or a regular non-gestalt.


This at least solves the problem of deciding which equipment package to use.

Greywander's Gestalt Rules - Sumarized

Proficiencies. Gain the weapon, armor, tool, and language proficiencies of both starting classes. Gain the skill proficiencies of both classes, minus two, chosen from the combined skill list of both classes. Choose one strong save (DEX, CON, WIS) and one weak save (STR, INT, CHA) from those available to those classes. Choose the starting equipment of one class or the other.

Gestalt characters still only have one race and one background.

Hit Points. At 1st level and whenever you gain a level, you use the larger of the two hit dice to determine how many HP you gain. The unused hit die contributes a small bonus to HP: a d6 gives nothing, a d8 gives +1, a d10 gives +2, and a d12 gives +3. You only have a number of hit dice equal to your character level, so when you gain a level you take the larger hit die and may "bank" the smaller hit die for possible later use. If you gain a hit die that is smaller than one in your "bank", you may switch them (this doesn't affect HP gains, only your hit dice).

Spell Slots. The gestalt character determines their caster level using all their class levels. For example, a 10th level character who is a cleric 10 / wizard 10 is a 20th level caster and has 9th level spell slots. However, caster level caps at 20. Pact magic slots are separate from regular spell slots, making warlock a good multiclass option for gestalt casters.

If this feels too strong, then cap caster level at your character level. This means that a cleric 10 /wizard 10 could go full non-caster with their remaining levels and still get spell slots at every level up, and also that leveling two half-casters would give full caster spell slot progression.

Multiclassing. Whenever a gestalt character gains a level, they can increase their level by one in two different classes, or their level by two in a single class. Your level in a class can't be higher than your character level. All the normal multiclass rules still apply, except at 1st level as indicated above in the "Proficiencies" section.

What I like about my gestalt rules is that it treats all classes equally, allows mutliclassing with no extra hassle, and doesn't care about the order in which class levels are taken. For HP and HD, for example, you always end up with the same average HP and the same HD, regardless of the order those class levels are taken.

Alternatively...

While gestalting does help insure that a small party can fill all the party roles they need to get through a campaign, it doesn't help with the core problem of a small party: the action economy. A horde of goblins can easily overwhelm them through sheer numbers, and a single failed save can spell disaster. As such, you might want to take a look at Heroic Resistance and Actions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?596581-Solo-small-party-Try-Heroic-Resistance-Actions).

1. The racial stat thing is just really to open up any race you want to be any class you want without gimping yourself.
Wany a dwarf wizard? Cool.
Elven Barbarian, go for it.

It is mainly an RP thing.

2. Max HP is there to help you last longer and to keep it simple.

3. Sorry, I left out a rule. Neither option can multiclass. the 2 class option is for those 2 classes 1-20 and the single is for that class 1-20.

4. The save is to help make sure you do not have a glaring hole in your defense. If you are alone, failing a hold person, or the like is a death sentence. Just more defense really.

5. The asi thing essentially means that everyone gets their normal ASI at 4, 8, 12, 16, 19, but if you are a fighter you still get one at 6 and 14, or if you are a rogue you still get one at 10.

6. I am open to suggestions on the extra attack idea, i just did not want to gimp a double martial class.


The single class option is all solid benefit over a normal build and has some nice bonuses to make up for what the double class gets.

[Kane0]

I'd go with option A:

- Paladin | Warlock, Sorcerer or Bard
- Any full caster caster | Fighter or Rogue
- Ranger | Cleric or Druid
- Barbarian | Rogue or Monk

Paladin + Warlock or Fighter + Wizard would probably be my pick, or maybe Cleric + Rogue if I was feeling a little more out there.

[Bobthewizard]

For Choice B, I forgot about Bard. That might be my first choice. Mix either Valor or Swords with Lore for all the spells and all the skills. Charisma and Dexterity as primary stats makes for a good scout and face, both of which would be important in a solo campaign. I'd go tabaxi for the climbing skill.

[Greywander]

Whoops, looks like I misunderstood the OP. I thought you were asking for advice on how to do a gestalt character, but you've already settled on rules for a gestalt and want advice on what to build with those rules.

This is really tricky, as there are a lot of things we really need for a solo character. They need to be good with skills, utility, survivability, and damage (particulary AoE damage, since hordes are your weakness).

The right answer is probably something like an Oathbreaker paladin + Necromancer wizard. Focus on boosting CHA and INT, let your zombies and skeletons do the heavy lifting. Toss out a Fireball if things get hairy. Enjoy resistance to nonmagical BPS damage and adding CHA to saves. At 14th level, try to use Command Undead to get a strong permanent undead minion. I believe this ability will work with an ancient white dracolich, a mummy lord, or a nightwalker.

Rogue + bard is also interesting because of the interaction between Jack of All Trades and Reliable Talent (IIRC, Sage Advice first confirmed that they did work together, then later reversed this, so YMMV). It helps a lot that rogues are pretty survivable with good single-target damage and bards have a lot of utility spells and can pick up things like Fireball with Magical Secrets. I might go Swords bard for infinite flourishes at 14th level, and AT rogue for more spellcasting (you can also get Fireball this way, if you want). Though Valor bards can cast a spell and Sneak Attack in the same round, so that's also a good choice.

For utility, I'm a big fan of chainlocks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar), though tomelocks also have their niche. Warlock also has some great invocations, such as at-will spells and a solid ranged attack. At higher levels, you can get at-will invisibility. Celestial might be the better choice thanks to the healing and survivability, but Fiend's temp HP and floating resistance are also useful (and you get good blast spells). I'm not sure what you'd pair this up with, if we're going Choice A. Paladin, sorcerer, or bard would all be viable choices.

Cleric is also another good one that can pair with just about anything.

With the rules you have now, fighter + paladin would cap out at 5 attacks at 20th level (also going from 2 attacks to 4 at 11th level), and gets to add Improved Divine Smite damage to all of them. Such a character would have a much easier time cutting through a horde without needing AoE, especially if you stack Heavy Armor Master on top of that. Go Champion and you also get regeneration and improved critical chances (which works well with spending spell slots to smite). Sadly, there's a severe lack of utility in this build.

War wizard + paladin locks you up with perhaps the best defenses out there. Between Arcane Deflection, Durable Magic, Aura of Protection, and Bless, you're probably not failing any saving throws. Heavy armor and a shield, plus the Defense fighting style, plus the Shield spell, plus Shield of Faith, plus Durable Magic means you'll have nearly untouchable AC, too. Paladin has solid at-will damage and some healing, and wizard gives good AoE damage and utility.

Choice B is tricky, as I haven't considered those sorts of builds as much as I have gestalt builds (which themselves are really just multiclass builds extended to level 40).

[Misterwhisper]

Whoops, looks like I misunderstood the OP. I thought you were asking for advice on how to do a gestalt character, but you've already settled on rules for a gestalt and want advice on what to build with those rules.

This is really tricky, as there are a lot of things we really need for a solo character. They need to be good with skills, utility, survivability, and damage (particulary AoE damage, since hordes are your weakness).

The right answer is probably something like an Oathbreaker paladin + Necromancer wizard. Focus on boosting CHA and INT, let your zombies and skeletons do the heavy lifting. Toss out a Fireball if things get hairy. Enjoy resistance to nonmagical BPS damage and adding CHA to saves. At 14th level, try to use Command Undead to get a strong permanent undead minion. I believe this ability will work with an ancient white dracolich, a mummy lord, or a nightwalker.

Rogue + bard is also interesting because of the interaction between Jack of All Trades and Reliable Talent (IIRC, Sage Advice first confirmed that they did work together, then later reversed this, so YMMV). It helps a lot that rogues are pretty survivable with good single-target damage and bards have a lot of utility spells and can pick up things like Fireball with Magical Secrets. I might go Swords bard for infinite flourishes at 14th level, and AT rogue for more spellcasting (you can also get Fireball this way, if you want). Though Valor bards can cast a spell and Sneak Attack in the same round, so that's also a good choice.

For utility, I'm a big fan of chainlocks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar), though tomelocks also have their niche. Warlock also has some great invocations, such as at-will spells and a solid ranged attack. At higher levels, you can get at-will invisibility. Celestial might be the better choice thanks to the healing and survivability, but Fiend's temp HP and floating resistance are also useful (and you get good blast spells). I'm not sure what you'd pair this up with, if we're going Choice A. Paladin, sorcerer, or bard would all be viable choices.

Cleric is also another good one that can pair with just about anything.

With the rules you have now, fighter + paladin would cap out at 5 attacks at 20th level (also going from 2 attacks to 4 at 11th level), and gets to add Improved Divine Smite damage to all of them. Such a character would have a much easier time cutting through a horde without needing AoE, especially if you stack Heavy Armor Master on top of that. Go Champion and you also get regeneration and improved critical chances (which works well with spending spell slots to smite). Sadly, there's a severe lack of utility in this build.

War wizard + paladin locks you up with perhaps the best defenses out there. Between Arcane Deflection, Durable Magic, Aura of Protection, and Bless, you're probably not failing any saving throws. Heavy armor and a shield, plus the Defense fighting style, plus the Shield spell, plus Shield of Faith, plus Durable Magic means you'll have nearly untouchable AC, too. Paladin has solid at-will damage and some healing, and wizard gives good AoE damage and utility.

Choice B is tricky, as I haven't considered those sorts of builds as much as I have gestalt builds (which themselves are really just multiclass builds extended to level 40).

Things I have considered:

Choice B and go with a Hexblade/celestial warlock.
Warforged for never needing anything but short rests and just the utility of not needing to eat, drink, or breathe
Bonus action heals
Good ranged cantrip.
Short rest spells including more healing and extras.
Pact of chain for super scouting and gift of ever living ones for super effective self heals.

Or

Choice A and go armorer artificer and abjurer wizard.
Giant wall of defense.
Deep gnome with deep gnome magic to repower the ward and stop spying.

[Brawnspear]

If you are allowed UA I suggest something with access to healing spells and Wild Soul Barbarian to constantly replenish your own spell slots at level 6. (The description talks about restoring others, but the crunch of it says "touch a creature"

Pair with Druid for a raging bear that can use a bunch of spell slots to stay in form longer, though it deals 5x slot level and you only heal for 1d8 per slot level. So you'd likely need to take some time out of combat for an admittedly nerfed healing spirit (but still 4-5d6 of healing for a level 2 slot).

Pair with Paladin for all your smiting needs, just make sure to save some seed spells for cure wounds at the end of combat (or aura of vitality at higher levels)

Go Bardbarian! Pick up swords bard and get that fighting style, grab some non concentration and out of combat spells, shore up your penchant for hitting things with the bards ability to talk at things!

Cleric, more holy light than your body has room for!

Divine Soul Sorcerer, because you like cleric spells with charisma instead! (But really so you can always have full sorcery points, and full spell slots)

Celestial Warlock, short rest slots just aren't fast enough!

Artificer! Magic weapons and magic everything else! Shore up your int score with a fancy hat! Grab a doggie, or some infinite potions or all the cannons you could dream of!

I'm running a 7 person gestalt level 15 game right now (because sometimes you just feel like punishing yourself as a DM) and one of my players is the Wild Soul / Paladin variety, and combined with all the other spell casters they start every fight at full HP and Full Spell slots. It is truly horrifying.

[CTurbo]

I've always wanted to play a simple Half Orc Champion/Bearbarian GWF/GWM Greataxe gestalt build.

7 ASIs?
1. +2 Str
2. +2 Str
3. +2 Con
4. +2 Con
5. GWM
6. Res(Wis)
7. Ritual Caster: Wizard


This is not the best solo character though. For solo play, I'd go either

Ancients Paladin/Lore Bard

or

Ancients Paladin/Divine Soul Sorcerer

or

Moon Druid/Tempest Cleric

[Alucard89]

As someone who played solo campaign before I can tell you few tips about soloing. I have no idea how to make gestalt work for solo honestly. It's not really good for it. Most important things in solo are:

1. Saves, saves, saves. You fail save- you have high chance of being dead becasue you are solo
2. Utility - fly, teleports etc. Nobody is there to help you. You need utility, so you need magic
3. Skills, best expertise - at least expertise in one social skill like persuasion, in stealth, in sleight of hands and in acrobatics or athletics.
4. You need either strong AOE damage or extra bodies and strong single target damage
5. Self heal.

Considering all of that I have two solo builds that I would play:

1. 2 Hexblade/18 Lore Bard taking Conjure Animals at level 7. Changling or Yuan-Ti. You try to talk your way and sneak your way through campaign and when you have to fight you rely on your extra bodies from Conjure spells and your counterspell to keep them away from AoE nukes. Repelling Blast to keep you save. Good AC, expertise in social/stealth/sleigh of hands etc. Changling for more utility. Yuan-Ti for advantage on saves.

2. 1 Hexblade/7 Ancients Paladin/12 Lore Bard Yuan-Ti Pureblood. Advantage on saves, +5 to all saves, resistance to spells damage, self heal, on Bard take expertise in stealth (use breastplate or mithril half-plate to avoid penalty to stealth), persuasion, soh, acrobatics. As level 6 Lore Bard take Spirit Guardians and Counterspell. Takes longer to go online, so it would be better if solo campaign start from higher level. Solo from level 1 is pretty much just luck, you can easly die in first 4 levels no matter of build. It's best to start solo campaigns from like level 6-8 range.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I'd probably try druid/rogue.

My first instinct would be to build cleric/something. Rogue gives some of the best damage (not limited by spells slots) in the game and some of the best skills in the game, but it's pretty bad with tanking damage. So the smart choice would probably be to combine cleric with a class with a bit less skill and a bit more tankyness, but if you replace cleric with druid instead you get wild shape for tankyness. You can't use it at the same time as your spells or your sneak attack, so it's not going to be easy, but in principle the combination has access to everything. You don't get metal armor so you need a high dex, but between ranged and finesse weapons and wild shape giving you the physical stats of the beast dex is better then str on this combination anyway. Wild shape also gives a form of self healing which compensates for not being as great a healer as a cleric.

So druid/rogue, high dex and wis, abuse sneak attack, expertise and wild shape as much as possible, reserve a bunch of spell slots for cure wounds.

EDIT: O wait no, aaaah! Rogues don't get sneak attack every round if they don't have a melee ally. So unless you have a feat or something to fix that, don't do this.

[Lord Foul]

I would personally go for one of three builds (two of which are similar)

First is elf or variant human fighter/rogue. For the fighter side take Eldritch knight, on the rogue side you could go either arcane trickster or swashbuckler. Great DPS, potentially some of the best AC in the game, potential for healing through magic initiate. options for any encounter. Good all around build.

The other option is to go full caster tank
Druid/barbearian or cleric/paladin, either way dwarf and take the dwarven feat for more healing.

If Druid go Moon Druid/totem barbarian. Con/wisdom focus, str is your third most important stat. You'll frequently be using another creature's str score. everything else can be safely dumped

If cleric/paladin, go forge cleric and you will hit quite hard with incredible sustain, with cleric spells for utility and high level and frequent smites
Wis>str>con>cha>int>dex

[Clistenes]

I'd go with option A:

- Paladin | Warlock, Sorcerer or Bard
- Any full caster caster | Fighter or Rogue
- Ranger | Cleric or Druid
- Barbarian | Rogue or Monk

Paladin + Warlock or Fighter + Wizard would probably be my pick, or maybe Cleric + Rogue if I was feeling a little more out there.

Paladin + Bard would have a lot of versatility, lots of nova damage and could be quite resilient.

Rogue + Full Caster too. Whatever you can't solve with spells, you solve with skills.

[KorvinStarmast]

We came up with 2 choices.

From Column A:
At level 2
Monk(probably Shadow) / Cleric (Arcana Domain)
S 10, D 16 C 14 I 12 Wis 18 Ch 14
20 HP, Move 40, AC 17. (move 45 if Wood Elf, right now Human for sake of simplicity)
Background: Criminal (Yes, I can make a backstory work for this, a redeemed criminal or spy for ....)
Saves: Dex and Wis
Skill Proficiencies: Perception, Athletics {Deception + Stealth from Background}
Tools: Thieves Tools; (probably Jeweler's Tools, may change my mind on that)
Uncommon Item: Gauntlets of Ogre Strength.

Choice 2
Ranger
Background: Criminal (Deception, Stealth, Thieves Tools)
Strength 18 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 14 Ch 10
HP 24
Skills: Expertise = Stealth; Perception, Athletics, Survival.
Tools: Vehicle(Water); {Thieves Tools from background)
Languages; as normal + Draconic
Saves: Strength, Dexterity, Wis
Feat: Alert
Fighting Style: Two Weapon Fighting
ASI: every 3 levels and bonus feat at level 1.
Class abilities: pick one class, get two subclasses; Hunter and Gloom Stalker at 3.
Casting: as normal for class but at every new spell level you can learn one spell of your next lower level from any class. At level 2 (first level spells) I learn a cantrip (Level zero); Either guidance or minor illusion. :smallbiggrin:
Initial Spells: Hunters Mark, Fog Cloud, Cure Wounds

[CTurbo]

From Column A:
At level 2
Monk(probably Shadow) / Cleric (Arcana Domain)
S 10, D 16 C 14 I 12 Wis 18 Ch 14
20 HP, Move 40, AC 17. (move 45 if Wood Elf, right now Human for sake of simplicity)
Background: Criminal (Yes, I can make a backstory work for this, a redeemed criminal or spy for ....)
Saves: Dex and Wis
Skill Proficiencies: Perception, Athletics {Deception + Stealth from Background}
Tools: Thieves Tools; (probably Jeweler's Tools, may change my mind on that)
Uncommon Item: Gauntlets of Ogre Strength.

Choice 2
Ranger
Background: Criminal (Deception, Stealth, Thieves Tools)
Strength 18 Dex 20 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 14 Ch 10
HP 24
Skills: Expertise = Stealth; Perception, Athletics, Survival.
Tools: Vehicle(Water); {Thieves Tools from background)
Languages; as normal + Draconic
Saves: Strength, Dexterity, Wis
Feat: Alert
Fighting Style: Two Weapon Fighting
ASI: every 3 levels and bonus feat at level 1.
Class abilities: pick one class, get two subclasses; Hunter and Gloom Stalker at 3.
Casting: as normal for class but at every new spell level you can learn one spell of your next lower level from any class. At level 2 (first level spells) I learn a cantrip (Level zero); Either guidance or minor illusion. :smallbiggrin:
Initial Spells: Hunters Mark, Fog Cloud, Cure Wounds


Your double Ranger gave me a great idea.

Using UA Revised Ranger, choose both Gloom Stalker and Beastmaster
At level 5, you'd get both Extra Attack, and Coordinated Attack for 4 attacks each round.
Choose Wolf and max it's Dex which is it's AC and attack stat. Then give the Wolf feats like Tough, Alert, or Mobile, or just pump Con if DM won't allow feats for companions.(I do if they make sense)
I guess the question is, would the companion benefit from any of the Gloom Stalker abilities.

[KorvinStarmast]

Your double Ranger gave me a great idea.

Using UA Revised Ranger, choose both Gloom Stalker and Beastmaster
At level 5, you'd get both Extra Attack, and Coordinated Attack for 4 attacks each round.
Choose Wolf and max it's Dex which is it's AC and attack stat. Then give the Wolf feats like Tough, Alert, or Mobile, or just pump Con if DM won't allow feats for companions.(I do if they make sense)
I guess the question is, would the companion benefit from any of the Gloom Stalker abilities. If I can offer great ideas for a better ranger, even if I do so accidentally, I consider it a good thing. :smallsmile:

[Misterwhisper]

If I can offer great ideas for a better ranger, even if I do so accidentally, I consider it a good thing. :smallsmile:

With the options in the UA for alternate class feature a few months back, ranger has a lot of appeal, as either choice really.

Deep stalker ranger and stars Druid would work very well and be quite thematic.

For second option Deepstalker and monster hunter seems nice.
But also Beastmaster has some value when combined with others..


UA is fine as long as it has not been replaced in hard print already.

Ex alt class features is fine, spell less ranger would not.

[Kane0]

From when I played gestalt that one time we all had to pick Warlock on one side but Warlock | Paladin, Warlock | Sorcerer and Warlock | Bard all kicked major ass. The Warlock | Fighter and Warlock | Rogue were excellent too, but that Cha synergy and doubling up on spellcasting is no joke.