Conjure animals vs New UA summon spirit spells

[Seekergeek]

So I'm playing a bard, about to hit Lore, and thinking about my level 6 magical secrets. Wondering how the boards feel the new UA summon spells from this UA (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020-SpellsTattoos.pdf) stack up against the classic conjure animals. My DM, though it hasn't come up somehow, will 100% allow me to choose what appears with conjure animals, for what that's worth. We're playing through Avernus.

To me, it seems like CA remains the better option but I'm not a great crunch guy and often seem to miss things.

[AvvyR]

CA is probably still "better" because like Animate Objects, so much of its power comes from breaking action economy.

The new spells represent a different approach to summons, having one powerful interesting creature you control, rather than a small army that clogs up the battlefield and makes a million rolls that send the other players off to make a sandwich. They also add tactical options, since each spell has several subtypes useful for different situations, while CA virtually always optimizes with the maximum number of wolves possible.

[Eldariel]

Well, UA spells summon one thing while Conjure Animals gets you 8+. Without even getting to all the fun options, it's not really close; Conjure Animals is much better.

[MaxWilson]

So I'm playing a bard, about to hit Lore, and thinking about my level 6 magical secrets. Wondering how the boards feel the new UA summon spells from this UA (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020-SpellsTattoos.pdf) stack up against the classic conjure animals. My DM, though it hasn't come up somehow, will 100% allow me to choose what appears with conjure animals, for what that's worth. We're playing through Avernus.

To me, it seems like CA remains the better option but I'm not a great crunch guy and often seem to miss things.

Your instincts are correct: Conjure Animals is better, except against monsters with strong AoEs.

[NaughtyTiger]

that said, summon 8 things should never have passed playtesting...
action economy and dragging the game to a halt.

[NorthernPhoenix]

that said, summon 8 things should never have passed playtesting...
action economy and dragging the game to a halt.

The built in "fix" is just to not allow that. It's right there in the rules of the spell. Lazy for sure, but at least it's there.

That being said, the UA summon spells are infinitely better from a DM perspective, and are some of the only UA i'd allow.

[NaughtyTiger]

The built in "fix" is just to not allow that. It's right there in the rules of the spell. Lazy for sure, but at least it's there.

i disagree that "it's right there in the rules of the spell."


Choose one of the following options for what appears.


• One beast of Challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two Beasts of Challenge rating 1 or lower
• Four Beasts of Challenge rating 1/2 or lower
• Eight Beasts of Challenge rating 1/4 or lower

It seems very clear to me that the player chooses CR and number.
It is unclear in the spell itself who chooses the creature;

sage advice 2015 declared player chooses CR and number, the DM chooses the creature

[Seekergeek]

That being said, the UA summon spells are infinitely better from a DM perspective, and are some of the only UA i'd allow.

I've got no intention of trying to upset the balance of things or the game-table. We've been playing together for a long time, and I don't foresee that being a gripe anyway. That being said, do the new summons scale in such a way as to be themselves a decent use of concentration? Even looking at what you get, it seems like the CR 1 and 2 options (which is likely what I would choose from given the above-noted concerns) are still "better" options mechanically.

[ATHATH]

I'd like to take a moment to point out that Summon Fey Spirit is on the Bard spell list, so you can still get some spirit-summoning action even if you don't take a Summon Spirit spell as one of your Magical Secrets picks.

[Seekergeek]

Oh absolutely. I may not have been clear on the initial question - whether it was worth a magical secret to snag CA when I could summon a spirit without the class feature. I broadened the question a bit, admittedly.

[Trask]

that said, summon 8 things should never have passed playtesting...
action economy and dragging the game to a halt.

Agreed, its just so annoying. All Conjure or Summon spells should be capped at 4 creatures maximum. Allowing 8 creatures betrays a lack of understanding of the game balance (8 weak creatures is almost always better than 1 strong one) and grinds to game down to an absolute standstill.

Poor design.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed, its just so annoying. All Conjure or Summon spells should be capped at 4 creatures maximum. Allowing 8 creatures betrays a lack of understanding of the game balance (8 weak creatures is almost always better than 1 strong one) and grinds to game down to an absolute standstill.

Poor design.

One fix I've considered (but ultimately rejected) is to change Conjure Animals/Woodland Creatures/Minor Elementals so that instead of 1/2/4/8 the progression is 1/2/3/4 (3 CR 1/2 or four CR 1/4).

I ultimately went with a different fix involving XP (conjured creatures get a share of XP proportionate to their CR), partly because you can still get minions from other sources (Animate Dead, Animate Objects, Tiny Servant, regular mercenaries, Planar Binding). But if you're worried solely about Conjure 8 Somethings I'd recommend making that tiny fix instead. 4 CR 1/4 creatures and 3 CR 1/2 creatures are fairly comparable.