Can he return at all?

[Irbis]

So. A little math: Durkon is about level 13. 14 if he got enough xp for big battle.

That means that his Raise Dead won't work at all [maximum of two weeks from the date of death, not three months].

Of course, he might be able to use 7th level spells: Resurrection which gets rid of the time limit, but costs Roy a level, not to mention being far more expensive [A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 10,000 gp.].

But, there is another factor: about 3.5 days here [if we take timeline from today's strip literally] means a year on earth: in about a month, his sister will be older [and probably more powerful, too] which means she will be the one able to fulfill their dad's oath, not Roy.

Also, in about 14x3.5 [50] days [14 years] even Resurrection won't bring Roy back.

Will he ever be able to return, then? :smallyuk:

[Mad Mask]

That's certainly true, but I don't think Rich will limit himself to that. Roy shall be raised (or resurrected) one way or an other.
As for the whole "Julia taking over the blood oath and adventuring with Oots", don't gonna happen. Main characters PCs are PCs. When do you see the main protagonist of a story Webcomic die halfway through the strips ?

So Roy will be back.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yes, the time limit on Raise Dead has long passed. The time limit on Resurrection, however, won't run out for another 129 years and 257 days. Since the Order are all around the level 13-14 mark, Durkon should be able to cast Resurrection.

[Irbis]

That's certainly true, but I don't think Rich will limit himself to that. Roy shall be raised (or resurrected) one way or an other.
As for the whole "Julia taking over the blood oath and adventuring with Oots", don't gonna happen. Main characters PCs are PCs. When do you see the main protagonist of a story Webcomic die halfway through the strips ?

So Roy will be back.

Yes, but the problem is, that the oath is supposed to be fulfilled by the eldest child [as for protagonist, how about Ash from SI?].

Which soon will be Julia, not Roy, unless we don't consider biological age.

Also, shouldn't Roy's body be pretty rotten by now? Haley & Belkster certainly don't have any magical or mundane way of preserving it.
And, more importantly, what will Roy do when he finds he lacks his Trouser Titan now? :smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

Yes, but the problem is, that the oath is supposed to be fulfilled by the eldest child [as for protagonist, how about Ash from SI?].

Which soon will be Julia, not Roy, unless we don't consider biological age.

Also, shouldn't Roy's body be pretty rotten by now? Haley & Belkster certainly don't have any magical or mundane way of preserving it.
And, more importantly, what will Roy do when he finds he lacks his Trouser Titan now? :smallbiggrin:

It's true that Roy's body may be a mess when he's revived, but that's what Regenerate is for, which can regrow anything (arms, legs, tail, eyes, ears etc.) except a full head. And it too is a seventh level cleric spell, so I wouldn't be surprised if Durkon prepares it along with Resurrection.

[Lilivati]

This is the wrong question, I think. The real question is WHY has it been three and a half months? Was he having such a good time that he missed the call as well? Or (more likely) what in the heck happened to OotS (or Roy's corpse) that Durkon couldn't or wouldn't prepare raise dead one day in two weeks?

[jamroar]

This is the wrong question, I think. The real question is WHY has it been three and a half months? Was he having such a good time that he missed the call as well? Or (more likely) what in the heck happened to OotS (or Roy's corpse) that Durkon couldn't or wouldn't prepare raise dead one day in two weeks?

It seems Roy doesn't know that the OOTS failed to retrieve his body. And apparently in three months, Haley and Belkar have been unable to meet up with the rest of the OOTS/find a friendly cleric capable of Resurrect/diamonds necessary for the spell/all of the above.

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, shouldn't Roy's body be pretty rotten by now? Haley & Belkster certainly don't have any magical or mundane way of preserving it.
And, more importantly, what will Roy do when he finds he lacks his Trouser Titan now? :smallbiggrin:

Erm... Resurrection completely restores a body. You can cast it on a fingertip and regrow the entire body. Why should it care if the body is a little rotten? They could just cut all the meat off his bones and cast it on his skull if they didn't want to look at Rotten Roy.

[Irbis]

Yeah, I guess that source of jokes has dried with abandonment of raise dead.

Also, if there's time dilation, Roy's brother spend less than a year here. Explains some things :smallamused:

[Dausuul]

Yes, but the problem is, that the oath is supposed to be fulfilled by the eldest child [as for protagonist, how about Ash from SI?].

Which soon will be Julia, not Roy, unless we don't consider biological age.

Wha?

I don't think so.

Julia and Roy are not twins as far as I know. That means there must be at least nine months between them, and I'd have said several years since Julia appears to be a teenager and Roy seems to be in his mid- to late twenties.

Julia has a long way to go before catching up with Roy.

[Gundato]

One can assume that Roy is the eldest. So that means Eric was at least nine months younger than him prior to the incident. Assuming Eugene and Roy's mother were "getting busy" in the delivery room, that means there is at least an eighteen month gap between Roy and Julia.

Now, seeing as how Roy wasn't completely blown away by Eric being able to speak, that would imply that the kid was at least 1-3 years old at the time of the incident. And let's just assume that Eugene and Roy's mother didn't "get busy" the night of the incident.

So yeah, I really doubt the age-gap between Roy and Julia is going to be enough of an issue.

[Ceaon]

Roy and Julia have a 12 year gap between them.
At the start of the comic, Roy was 28 and Julia was 16.

Also, I'm thinking one can't grow older than someone who is older to begin with, even though the older one has/had been dead for a while.

That sentence sucked.

[Roderick_BR]

(...)
Of course, he might be able to use 7th level spells: Resurrection which gets rid of the time limit, but costs Roy a level, not to mention being far more expensive [A sprinkle of holy water and diamonds worth a total of at least 10,000 gp.].
(...)
Raise dead makes the subject lose a level too. It's True Resurrection that eliminates the level loss.

[explanetpluto]

I think the idea of the strip is that there is no day or night, just constant day. People don't age because they go to the realm as an ideal representation of themselves, and stay that way.

[AtomicKitKat]

Roy and Julia have a 12 year gap between them.
At the start of the comic, Roy was 28 and Julia was 16.

Also, I'm thinking one can't grow older than someone who is older to begin with, even though the older one has/had been dead for a while.

That sentence sucked.

Not really. When you're raised, you come back at whatever age you were when you died, which is why it tends to be unusable if you died "of old age"(I hate that term. Implies there's a built-in suicide mechanism.).

[Goofy]

Implies there's a built-in suicide mechanism.There is a mechanism for automatic death from old age.
When a character reaches venerable age, secretly roll his or her maximum age, which is the number from the Venerable column on Table: Aging Effects plus the result of the dice roll indicated on the Maximum Age column on that table, and records the result, which the player does not know. A character who reaches his or her maximum age dies of old age at some time during the following year.

[Yuki Akuma]

There is a mechanism for automatic death from old age.

He's talking about the idea that old people die of "old age", not diseases due to their immune system breaking down.

Because, in a completely sterile environment with regular replacements for failing organs, you'll never die. Living things don't just spontaneously decide "right, I'm too old, I'll die now". Living creatures are designed to stay living indefinitely, in most cases. Entropy just kinda screws them over.

In a magical world, where magic has the power to reverse entropy, high-level characters really shouldn't die of old age.

[Irbis]

Roy and Julia have a 12 year gap between them.
At the start of the comic, Roy was 28 and Julia was 16.

Also, I'm thinking one can't grow older than someone who is older to begin with, even though the older one has/had been dead for a while.

Except the little fact that Roy ceased to age and Julia began accelerated aging.

Because, in a completely sterile environment with regular replacements for failing organs, you'll never die. Living things don't just spontaneously decide "right, I'm too old, I'll die now". Living creatures are designed to stay living indefinitely, in most cases. Entropy just kinda screws them over.

In a magical world, where magic has the power to reverse entropy, high-level characters really shouldn't die of old age.

Not entirely true. While the simpler organisms can live indefinitely [if we don't take cell division as destruction of the cell and beginning of two new ones] the more sophisticated ones [like humans] have auto-kill mechanism build-in [telomeric (?) chains] to ensure that they won't take up resources from their offspring. Your genes seek a way to last, not for your body to last. After you've mated, you're obsolete.
Incidentally, that's the problem with first clones, too: their telomers weren't reseted to 0 [because nobody knew it would be issue then] so we got animals like Dolly, that had most of their cell life already used up and quickly coming to an end.

[DreadSpoon]

Also, shouldn't Roy's body be pretty rotten by now? Haley & Belkster certainly don't have any magical or mundane way of preserving it.

Assuming they risk putting the body in the bag of holding, that may preserve it. I don't know what 3.0/3.5/4.0/12.7 editions state, but in 2nd editions at least a bag of holding created a dimensional space which had frozen time - anything placed within went into temporal stasis. This was specifically for carrying around foodstuffs and other perishables.

[Lord Zentei]

That's certainly true, but I don't think Rich will limit himself to that. Roy shall be raised (or resurrected) one way or an other.
As for the whole "Julia taking over the blood oath and adventuring with Oots", don't gonna happen. Main characters PCs are PCs. When do you see the main protagonist of a story Webcomic die halfway through the strips ?

So Roy will be back.

Webcomics? Not so much, but then, there is a first time for everything.

But story?

Try the popular 80s sci-fi serial Blake's 7. The title character gets eliminated at the end of season 2, but the show got 4 seasons.



EDIT: I just remembered one instance of such a webcomic:

Angels2200. A band of a half-dozen unlikely heroines conscripted into an interstellar war. The leader of the group, Sasha "Hammer" Carelli died about halfway through the story.

The group was boarding an enemy ship during the climax of an arc, but they got trapped in there as the bad guys set off the countdown for self destruct. She then manages to devise a plan to get her entire team - except herself - off the ship to safety.

The readers were going on in the forum about crazy ideas she could implement to get out of there, and sure enough they show up in the comic, but ultimately fail. The ship blows up. People speculate -- perhaps she got out somehow by doing XYZ, then shows up later. Only, she never did.

[KillerCardinal]

Webcomics? Not so much, but then, there is a first time for everything.

But story?

Try the popular 80s sci-fi serial Blake's 7. The title character gets eliminated at the end of season 2, but the show got 4 seasons.


And for another one:

A song of Ice and Fire. You can't count on ANY main character surviving. Ned was just the first to go. :smalleek:

[SoD]

Well, with the time dialation, presuming V doesn't die...when she reaches a certain level, she'll have acess to Wish, as will Durkon and Miracle. I don't think there's a time limit on either of these. And if that does go wrong, we've got Julia, who also should end up with acess to Wish.

Well, allright, it may be some time. But the Blood Oath of Vengence doesn't have a time limit, and, if they think properly, end up with an entire Greenhilt batallion!

Roy+Eugene+Julia+Grandpa (sorry tough guy, forgotten yer name!). Imagine the family bickering there as they go againt Xykon once and for all! Hell, we could even get Eric there as a bard on Uncle Myrton's toy piano! And even bring Uncle Myrton in as an honourary Greenhilt (includes black face paint!) along with the rest of the order! Huzah!


Oh, and Miko.

[Grey Watcher]

I, for one, don't think there's any weird Time Flows at Different Speeds Here mojo going on. I think it's just the case that, with no objective cues for the passage of time (ie sunrise, sunset, etc.), and no hunger or weariness, Roy just lost track of time while climbing the mountain, playing blocks with Eric, and fishing with Horace. I mean, think about it, have you ever gotten lost in a game, good book, or long conversation, only to be surprised that you've spent HOURS doing that thing when you next look at a clock? Same thing happened to Roy, just on a bigger scale.

That said, I think Roy can still come back. I have a feeling the delay is due more to the fact that Haley and Belkar are having trouble GETTING to Durkon in the first place. If they've already reunited, they probably took too long for Raise Dead to be effective, and now have to scrounge up enough diamonds to power Resurrection.

[herrhauptmann]

Just a question on this, when Roy's Archon states how long it has been since his death, I'm willing to bet that number was the length of time between the posting of the comic where Roy dies, and chapter 498.
But I'm not sure when Roys death was posted, so I have no way to back that up.
Can anyone help me out?

[Porthos]

Just a question on this, when Roy's Archon states how long it has been since his death, I'm willing to bet that number was the length of time between the posting of the comic where Roy dies, and chapter 498.
But I'm not sure when Roys death was posted, so I have no way to back that up.
Can anyone help me out?

443: April 23rd, 2007.

Which is just over six months. So, no dice on that score. :smallwink:

[Decoy Lockbox]

In D&D, some planes have a faster time flow than others. However, I don't think Celestia is one of them. It's always a possibility that it is though, and Rich did the whole "3 months" thing to freak out the readers.

If Durkon is 13th level, and he has Roy's body and 10,000gp worth of diamonds, he can certainly resurrect him using the Resurrection spell. But that obviously is not what is preventing this from happening.

Bags of Holding in D&D 3.5 have no air in them, so they make perfect places to preserve corpses, food and other perishables. In addition, they would make for pretty good assassination weapons -- just sneak up on someone and cram a bag of holding over their head, tying a rope around their neck to make sure the bag stays on. Its like a freaky extra-dimensional garotte.

[SteveMB]

Just a question on this, when Roy's Archon states how long it has been since his death, I'm willing to bet that number was the length of time between the posting of the comic where Roy dies, and chapter 498.
Page #443 (Roy's death) was posted on 04-23-2007.

[Lord Zentei]

Bags of Holding in D&D 3.5 have no air in them, so they make perfect places to preserve corpses, food and other perishables. In addition, they would make for pretty good assassination weapons -- just sneak up on someone and cram a bag of holding over their head, tying a rope around their neck to make sure the bag stays on. Its like a freaky extra-dimensional garotte.

The victim might cut the cord holding the bag, seeing as his hands are still free. Though breaking the bag (from the inside or outside) means that all contents are lost forever, so he'd better be careful with that.

Better to shove the victim in entirely.

[chibibar]

The victim might cut the cord holding the bag, seeing as his hands are still free. Though breaking the bag (from the inside or outside) means that all contents are lost forever, so he'd better be careful with that.

Better to shove the victim in entirely.

Heh... in our world, we have a house rule that if the bag is broken all content are spilled (well more of explode) since the space inside it larger than outside the "law of magic" will try to equate itself since the enchantment is broken.

[Irbis]

Bags of Holding in D&D 3.5 have no air in them, so they make perfect places to preserve corpses, food and other perishables. In addition, they would make for pretty good assassination weapons -- just sneak up on someone and cram a bag of holding over their head, tying a rope around their neck to make sure the bag stays on. Its like a freaky extra-dimensional garotte.

But they can't - remember Mark of Justice?

Unless, of course, Belkster got himself killed & Haley shoved both of them into it. :smallyuk:

As for garotte - wouldn't it just strangle the victim like normal rope? I don't see why it would need BoH at all.

[geekyhedgehog]

I would very much like to copy that spell from your spellbook, Mr. chibibar. I would trade you a mighty Fireball spell for it.

Oops, wrong.

(If you didn't get it, check #49)
Old School OotS Rules!

[Lord Zentei]

But they can't - remember Mark of Justice?

Unless, of course, Belkster got himself killed & Haley shoved both of them into it. :smallyuk:

There is another possibility:

Belkar has turned over to the bad guys in the hope of getting the mark removed: Xykon and Redcloak are both pretty high level, and it is pretty reasonable that they might be able to do it. Roy is now a powerful undead in Xykon's service. Elan's concern (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0482.html) about Haley being alone with Belkar was indeed foreshadowing, as was his statement (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html) that he felt he'd not see them again.

[NikkTheTrick]

Not entirely true. While the simpler organisms can live indefinitely [if we don't take cell division as destruction of the cell and beginning of two new ones] the more sophisticated ones [like humans] have auto-kill mechanism build-in [telomeric (?) chains] to ensure that they won't take up resources from their offspring. Your genes seek a way to last, not for your body to last. After you've mated, you're obsolete.
Incidentally, that's the problem with first clones, too: their telomers weren't reseted to 0 [because nobody knew it would be issue then] so we got animals like Dolly, that had most of their cell life already used up and quickly coming to an end.
Telomeres are not designed to limit human lifespan. In fact, we have an enzyme (telomerase) that can add telomeres to the ends of our chromosomes.
The problem is that genes coding for telomerase have to be disabled in somatic cells as an anti-cancer measure: re-activation of telomerase gene is a requirement for a cell to become cancerous (otherwise, it will undergo only a small number of divisions, the tumor will be stopped and eventually killed by our immune system). Telomere shortening is just a side-effect for avoiding most humans dying from cancer in early twenties.
Also, people living too long would not be a problem with pre-civilization humans: people rarely lived to see old age anyway without cleanliness of modern society, plentiful food, security and medicine. A small cut or a bite could be infected and get an otherwise healthy person dead.

Given rapid cell growth with regenerate spell, telomeres must be extnded, otherwise cells would just not be able to divide so much.


Age-dependent death (and inability to be resurrected) in D&D is just means of making the whole thing work without 1000-year old human mages and clerics ruling the world since consequences of real world aging are easily countered through magic in D&D.

[SilverClawShift]

Even if heaven experiences a different flow of time, and even if it took roy so long to be ressurected that Julia was technically 'older' than him in terms of age, that wouldn't necessarily mean anything.

Somehow, I don't see a blood-oath as being based on math. The "Eldest" offspring could mean anything, including "Which one has existed longer". Even if Julia has come years closer to the end of her lifespan, a ressurected Roy might still be the "Eldest" by virtue of having existed for longer.

[geekyhedgehog]

just an idea, but has anyone checked out #70 recently?
maybe the archon is just screwing around with Roy, because what else do you do in heaven when you have no hands?

[Sc00by]

just an idea, but has anyone checked out #70 recently?
maybe the archon is just screwing around with Roy, because what else do you do in heaven when you have no hands?

Yeah, but Nale maybe lawful, but he sure has heck ain't good. Where as Roy's archon is very much good. It CAN'T lie! So it's not that.

[smart thog]

just an idea, but has anyone checked out #70 recently?
maybe the archon is just screwing around with Roy, because what else do you do in heaven when you have no hands?



My theory exactly. as said here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html , night and day do exist. you cannot have a one night stand if you do not have night OR day. We all no Roy can tell the difference between life and death.

[NikkTheTrick]

My theory exactly. as said here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html , night and day do exist. you cannot have a one night stand if you do not have night OR day. We all no Roy can tell the difference between life and death.
One night stand can be just a metaphor. I had one night stands that did not follow day-light cycle either...

[Rogue 7]

One thing I noticed is that in just about every single comic, Roy mentions how he's going to get raised soon. I find it really difficult to believe that he lost track of that much time. Something's wonky.

[The Bushranger]

But story?

Try the popular 80s sci-fi serial Blake's 7. The title character gets eliminated at the end of season 2, but the show got 4 seasons.

And they also
killed off the entire cast at the conclusion of the final episode. Every last one of them.

Except, perhaps, Vila - there's strong evidence he faked being hit

And they did bring back Blake in the final episode - only for him to be mistakenly shot as a presumed traitor...



443: April 23rd, 2007.

Which is just over six months. So, no dice on that score. :smallwink:

But what if you remove the hiatus time?

[geekyhedgehog]

Yeah, but Nale maybe lawful, but he sure has heck ain't good. Where as Roy's archon is very much good. It CAN'T lie! So it's not that.

Actually, I thinks it's the Lawfulness that prevents lying, but point taken nonetheless.

[Lord Zentei]

And they also
killed off the entire cast at the conclusion of the final episode. Every last one of them.

Except, perhaps, Vila - there's strong evidence he faked being hit

And they did bring back Blake in the final episode - only for him to be mistakenly shot as a presumed traitor...

Blake's 7 spoilers:

Indeed, though the end of the series is one thing, the middle -- that's something else. :smalleek:

As for Blake "coming back" -- granted, though he was effectively "dead" for all storytelling purposes throughout season 3-4, particularly after Servalan boasted that she had seen him dead.

[dragongirl13]

Roy can still be brought back. Of course, if they have to gain levels to bring him back, he'll be a bit weaker than the rest of them, but he'll still be back. Or they could pay a high-level cleric to resurrect him with True Resurrection, which is the best spell to revive a dead character with.

Julia will not fulfill the oath. Three months is NOT THAT LONG. She will not be much more powerful than she was. Low-level wizards run out of spells way too fast. Sorcerers are way better for Spells Per Day. Plus, we all want to see Roy fulfill the oath because his Dad doesn't think he can.

Roy will be brought back. I don't know how, but he will be brought back. I just hope it's not Reincarnate...

[belboz]

My theory exactly. as said here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0492.html , night and day do exist. you cannot have a one night stand if you do not have night OR day.

Ah, but you see, that's all part of the celestial plan. (Those cunning celestials!) The so-called "tavern of one-night stands" is really the "tavern of long-term committed relationships"; it's just that, because petitioners' perception of time is so messed up, they *seem* like one-night stands.

[Edea]

Roy can still be brought back. Of course, if they have to gain levels to bring him back, he'll be a bit weaker than the rest of them, but he'll still be back. Or they could pay a high-level cleric to resurrect him with True Resurrection, which is the best spell to revive a dead character with.

Julia will not fulfill the oath. Three months is NOT THAT LONG. She will not be much more powerful than she was. Low-level wizards run out of spells way too fast. Sorcerers are way better for Spells Per Day. Plus, we all want to see Roy fulfill the oath because his Dad doesn't think he can.

Roy will be brought back. I don't know how, but he will be brought back. I just hope it's not Reincarnate...

I think Reincarnate's shelf life has expired.

[David Argall]

Durkon and party will not raise Roy. He will find a way to raise himself.

The hundred days mean something has gone very wrong in the mortal realm. They should have been able to raise him in an afternoon, a week if you put a few irritants in the way. But we are talking months. There is no excuse for this that doesn't scream "And we are never going to either." In theory, Roy could still get raised at any time. But this is like the deadbeat who is constantly telling you he will pay tomorrow. In theory he could still pay you tomorrow. But after 100 days of this, you have either written off the money as a loss or are headed to court to collect.
Roy apparently wants to go to "court". Just what method he will use is pure guess, and likely violates D&D rules. But he will find a way back to the mortal realm by himself.

[Cybren]

He's talking about the idea that old people die of "old age", not diseases due to their immune system breaking down.

Because, in a completely sterile environment with regular replacements for failing organs, you'll never die. Living things don't just spontaneously decide "right, I'm too old, I'll die now". Living creatures are designed to stay living indefinitely, in most cases. Entropy just kinda screws them over.

In a magical world, where magic has the power to reverse entropy, high-level characters really shouldn't die of old age.

What about programmed cell death, telomeres, and what not?

[NikkTheTrick]

What about programmed cell death, telomeres, and what not?
Cells that die due to programmed death (like red blood cells) are constantly replaced.

Telomeres are the problem, but it is possible to extend them - we have an enzyme (telomerase) which does exactly that. Unfortunately, somatic cells have telomerase gene inactive since telomerase is one of pre-requisites for cell becoming cancerous. Magic could easily solve that - Regeneration must be taking cares of telomeres since it features massive cell division.

Cell suicide occurs when cells start becoming abnormal. It is a lot better for our body to kill millions of good cells than let one cancerous cell survive. If a cell becomes incapable of suicide for whatever reason, it is killed ASAP. If not, we have cancer.

[turkishproverb]

Or, if the GIANT really goes all abusing game rules on us.

If these are roy solo adventures, he could have Eugene cast a wish spell to bring him back tol ife. I don't think it covers the DEAD sending back people back to life as being restricted.

[hamishspence]

once again, the time interval does not REQUIRE us to postulate the Order being in deep.....trouble. Head downwards.
Belkar: I'm shorter than you so I lose out either way up.

Sorry, Terry Pratchett quotes just make me laugh! :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, we can say it was more LIKELY, but ASSUMING it is risky. And hasn't anyone realised that it is the villains job to thwart the Heroes efforts? so we should be surprised at it NOT taking a long time to get Roy Rezzed.