OOTS #1201 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[ChaosOS]

The potion seller feels weirdly ominous. Am I forgetting a reference?

[Schroeswald]

Currently this discussion thread is named for the next unpublished comic, I'm sure it'll be good (just like this one), but thats not what you just posted.

[JumboWheat01]

Wow, the comic in the future is amazing. Glorious. We are not worthy!

Always good idea to get your side-plots tied up before you go past the point of no return. Don't want to miss out on those tasty rewards.

[Mordae]

Absolutely fantastic. Love the callback to Julio's potion-brewing deal (and perhaps the usual Final Fantasy airship vendor...).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The potion seller feels weirdly ominous. Am I forgetting a reference?

In many video games, just before you go into the final battle, there is an unexplained (and mostly unexplainable) seller of basic potions just hanging out there, usually at the end of a very hard dungeon, peddling their wares as if it was the most normal thing in the world.

Grey Wolf

[BisectedBrioche]

Oh Lord, the last panel's giving me flashbacks to that one battle in FFX!

...did the thread skip a number?

[Goosefarble]

YESSS the final merchant! He's everything I ever hoped he would be and more!


The potion seller feels weirdly ominous. Am I forgetting a reference?

:belkar: Feh, they never sell anything but basic potions anyway. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html)

[Lvl 2 Expert]

YESSS the final merchant! He's everything I ever hoped he would be and more!



:belkar: Feh, they never sell anything but basic potions anyway. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html)

Exactly, this is it, the room before the final battle. Hype!

[DaFlipp]

Ah, was gonna explain the End Dungeon (or at least Climactic Dungeon) Merchant but folks beat me to it.

Possibly the funniest example would be the one from Final Fantasy X who tries to sell you his wares while standing aboard an airship that is actively under attack. When someone points out to him that he shouldn't charge them since, if they fail, he dies too, he just coolly responds "I am confident in your victory."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

:belkar: Feh, they never sell anything but basic potions anyway. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html)

That's a bit unfair. Sometimes they also allow limited re-spec'ing. And of course
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/3d/ca/6b/3dca6b86389ee2b23850c3e1b503af9d--dragon-age-origins-dragon-age-inquisition.jpg

Grey Wolf

[AstralFire]

You're surrounded by darkspawn corpses! What happened here?

Enchantment? Enchantment!

It's not the specific reference, but my personal favorite on the last minute final vendor trope. Toad in Super Mario RPG is a close second.

[link3710]

Welp, I think I'm in full agreement with Elan this time, in pretty much every panel.

And uh... If they're depending on Julia to pass the message and they can only talk so long as his blood oath isn't fulfilled, well? Issue.

[King of Nowhere]

nice callback to that early belkar reference

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If they're depending on Julia to pass the message and they can only talk so long as his blood oath isn't fulfilled, well? Issue.

She probably can cast the regular sending the moment she notices the blood oath connection isn't active anymore.

Grey Wolf

[Rack]

Exactly, this is it, the room before the final battle. Hype!

So the last book is basically going to be one gigantic fight scene?

[Fyraltari]

So the last book is basically going to be one gigantic fight scene?

No, a final dungeon.

[BarakDeathBlade]

Didn't V lock the ship down with Dimensional Lock?

Yep, 946 with a stated plan to continue to refresh it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So the last book is basically going to be one gigantic fight scene?

No, it'll probably be a series of gigantic fights, with breathing space in between for some final character development. And MitD's reveal. But I repeat myself. And I'm all for it.


Didn't V lock the ship down with Dimensional Lock?

Yep, 946 with a stated plan to continue to refresh it.

Yes? Why would that be a problem? They can get on and off with a rope ladder.

Grey Wolf

[Lvl 2 Expert]

nice callback to that early belkar reference

Also, as minor as this is, this means the Giant has started dropping other shoes. Roy's Archon's mission, the Monster in the Dark, the planet inside the rift, they're all going to come into play, and it started with one teleporting potion salesman.

[Kantaki]

Huh, if the final dungeon merchant pops up here does that mean... Xykon's Astral Tomb-Fortress is a bonus dungeon?:smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

So the last book is basically going to be one gigantic fight scene? No, the fiends evil plan is going to throw a big old curveball at it. But there should be some epic fights before the book is over; Xykon may not be The end boss, but he's a fine opponent for a high level fight.

[AstralFire]

Welp, I think I'm in full agreement with Elan this time, in pretty much every panel.

And uh... If they're depending on Julia to pass the message and they can only talk so long as his blood oath isn't fulfilled, well? Issue.

She is a smart kid who is a fairly good caster in her own right. If the blood oath gets broken, and she'll notice given it is her current experiment, she may well try another way to get a message to her brother.

[BarakDeathBlade]

No, it'll probably be a series of gigantic fights, with breathing space in between for some final character development. And MitD's reveal. But I repeat myself. And I'm all for it.



Yes? Why would that be a problem? They can get on and off with a rope ladder.

Grey Wolf

Yes, but how did the potion dealer pop into existence?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Huh, if the final dungeon merchant pops up here does that mean... Xykon's Astral Tomb-Fortress is a bonus dungeon?:smallbiggrin:

If it comes into play at all. Remember, Redcloak switched the phylactery for a newly made fake. Unless there's something else of importance there the whole thing has basically no function.


Yes, but how did the potion dealer pop into existence?

Story conventions trump magic.

That's why bards are so OP.

[AstralFire]

Yes, but how did the potion dealer pop into existence?

Clearly he was actually an evocation, created for this moment rather than called.

[Coyote0715]

Ah, the last minute merchant strikes again!

[Yendor]

She is a smart kid who is a fairly good caster in her own right. If the blood oath gets broken, and she'll notice given it is her current experiment, she may well try another way to get a message to her brother.

Ten gold says she complains about him ruining her project.

[Fyraltari]

Also, as minor as this is, this means the Giant has started dropping other shoes. Roy's Archon's mission, the Monster in the Dark, the planet inside the rift, they're all going to come into play, and it started with one teleporting potion salesman.

The colon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0007.html) tumor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html) would want a word with you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes, but how did the potion dealer pop into existence?

The same way any salesmen of potions manage to get to the room before the final boss regardless of the level of the enemies around them.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

The same way any salesmen of potions manage to get to the room before the final boss regardless of the level of the enemies around them.

Grey Wolf

They've got an agreement with the owners of these little shops that weren't there yesterday.

[Kantaki]

If it comes into play at all. Remember, Redcloak switched the phylactery for a newly made fake. Unless there's something else of importance there the whole thing has basically no function.

As I said. Bonus dungeon.
Usually entirely optional and with little to no connection to the (main) plot.
Very often with a boss far stronger than the actual end-boss.

Neo-Xykon Mk VII the Mecha-Lich maybe?:smalltongue:

[gerryq]

Anyone know what the title refers to?

[Fyraltari]

Anyone know what the title refers to?

The two lovers, I would wager.

[Skull the Troll]

Triss > Yennifer. Never let her leave on the boat.

[The MunchKING]

The same way any salesmen of potions manage to get to the room before the final boss regardless of the level of the enemies around them.

Grey Wolf

O'aka pretty much just explicitly follows you guys around while not doing anything that gets him in trouble with the religious group that ends up fighting you. SO he doesn't have to fight the people and can easily get where ever your going to be without needing to worry about bosses. But he is still bothered by monsters, which explains a lot of stretches without him. The rest I don't know how they do it. :smalltongue:

[Schroeswald]

No, a final dungeon.

Yeah, I'm thinking that we're seeing a final dungeon crawl make up most of this book, we haven't really seen one of those since DCF (unless you count Girard's Gate), adds some nice symmetry and callback stuff.

[AstralFire]

O'aka pretty much just explicitly follows you guys around while not doing anything that gets him in trouble with the religious group that ends up fighting you. SO he doesn't have to fight the people and can easily get where ever your going to be without needing to worry about bosses. But he is still bothered by monsters, which explains a lot of stretches without him. The rest I don't know how they do it. :smalltongue:

In Dragon Age, it became a plot point in DA2 that forecast plot events in DAI

[Hekko]

Yes, but how did the potion dealer pop into existence?

He was always there, at the last turning point. It's just that Mechane and those aboard reached that point at that very moment.

[Jay R]

OK, now it feels like the adventure is about to start.

[And my post has the right title.]

[Shale]

She probably can cast the regular sending the moment she notices the blood oath connection isn't active anymore.

Grey Wolf

Since Roy specified that if they're based in Cliffport they should look out for her, he might just be expecting her to show up in person.

[Psyren]

Huh, if the final dungeon merchant pops up here does that mean... Xykon's Astral Tomb-Fortress is a bonus dungeon?:smallbiggrin:

Possibly - but more likely is that Xykon's massive deathtrap fortress was a giant waste of time for him / monument to his hubris that will be plumbed by high-level adventurers for centuries to come, long after he is little more than a footnote in history. His personal Idiot Tax, if you will.

[The MunchKING]

Since Roy specified that if they're based in Cliffport they should look out for her, he might just be expecting her to show up in person.

Yeah, but Julia needs to Sending with Roy to find out he needs a lift.

[SlashDash]

If it comes into play at all. Remember, Redcloak switched the phylactery for a newly made fake. Unless there's something else of importance there the whole thing has basically no function.

Thor told Durkon he'll hear about the fortress later on. So it'll probably go into the story some way or another.

Of course it's possible Redcloak will just say "Yeah, he thinks the real one is in the fortress, but I have it here"
But I doubt it.


Since Roy specified that if they're based in Cliffport they should look out for her, he might just be expecting her to show up in person.
Julia is in cliffport. That's where her magic school is.
Remember that whole sub plot of Nale kidnapping her and tricking Roy into taking him into the party instead of Elan?

[ebarde]

It's been a while since OOTS has had a "random thing appears out of nowhere as a meta joke", I feel that because the story was so heavy as of late, the meta shenanigans got a bit toned down

[Fincher]

He was always there, at the last turning point. It's just that Mechane and those aboard reached that point at that very moment.

Conversely, he was on the ship the whole time, and no one acknowledged his existence until it was relevant.

[Shale]

Julia is in cliffport. That's where her magic school is.
Remember that whole sub plot of Nale kidnapping her and tricking Roy into taking him into the party instead of Elan?

And therefore she could just walk over to wherever the Mechane is docked, that's my point.

[Fyraltari]

Thor told Durkon he'll hear about the fortress later on. So it'll probably go into the story some way or another.

Of course it's possible Redcloak will just say "Yeah, he thinks the real one is in the fortress, but I have it here"
But I doubt it.

No, Thor said Durkon could hear about about it and Thor was probably not supposed to tell him about it.
Also the strip is titled But it probably won't ccome up (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Aw, how sweet. I enjoy having a strip that’s very much about genre conventions. Also, Roy’s plan, while ominous, does make sense.

[The MunchKING]

No, Thor said Durkon could hear about about it and Thor was probably not supposed to tell him about it.
Also the strip is titled But it probably won't ccome up (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1137.html).

I thought that title was supposed to be sarcastic. "oh yeah he built a super-cool fortress thingie in the Astral Plane to fight through, the PCs will definitely NEVER see that!"

[AvangionQ]

"Lots of health potions and supplies just lying around ... game just autosaved ... boss fight."

That cliche of the merchant before the boss never gets old.

PS, you numbered this thread one too high.

[Fyraltari]

I thought that title was supposed to be sarcastic. "oh yeah he built a super-cool fortress thingie in the Astral Plane to fight through, the PCs will definitely NEVER see that!"

"Such thrilling hard-fought battles, though! so many twistings and turnings! Death beckoned in every hall. And so visually complex too! I'm glad no-one had to draw a picture of any of that." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html)

[Agi Hammerthief]

why is thread title one number higher than latest comic? :smallconfused:

[Fyraltari]

why is thread title one number higher than latest comic? :smallconfused:

Either a typo or a rift in the space-time continuum.

[MoonCat]

Conversely, he was on the ship the whole time, and no one acknowledged his existence until it was relevant.

Honestly, I'm betting that the next strip will have the merchant explaining that he's a backstop instated by Julio whose is to be summoned* by the fulfillment of specific endgame narrative conventions.

*I have no idea about the necessary mechanics, given the Dimensional Lock, perhaps he can still be poofed in from a hidden part of the boat, or the Mechane just exerts a loophole on summonings from the Merchant Dimension for dramatic purposes.

[Bedinsis]

What would captain Bandana do if Roy and the casters don't make it?

[littlebum2002]

Honestly, I'm betting that the next strip will have the merchant explaining that he's a backstop instated by Julio whose is to be summoned* by the fulfillment of specific endgame narrative conventions.

*I have no idea about the necessary mechanics, given the Dimensional Lock, perhaps he can still be poofed in from a hidden part of the boat, or the Mechane just exerts a loophole on summonings from the Merchant Dimension for dramatic purposes.

Maybe end-dungeon merchants are just so extremely high level that the end bosses are scared enough to leave them alone.

[username1]

That's giving me flashbacks to the end of FFXV, the literal Prince of light had to sell everything he owned for potions.

[Fyraltari]

What would captain Bandana do if Roy and the casters don't make it?

Die with the rest of the planet?

[brionl]

As I said. Bonus dungeon.
Usually entirely optional and with little to no connection to the (main) plot.
Very often with a boss far stronger than the actual end-boss.

Neo-Xykon Mk VII the Mecha-Lich maybe?:smalltongue:

Does that mean they are going to be saved by a teen aged Eric from an alternate timeline in the future?

[Peelee]

Honestly, I'm betting that the next strip will have the merchant explaining that he's a backstop instated by Julio whose is to be summoned* by the fulfillment of specific endgame narrative conventions.

*I have no idea about the necessary mechanics, given the Dimensional Lock

When was the Mechane Dimensionally Locked?

[RAMPAGE]

That potion seller looks a lot like The Wandering Trader from Minecraft

[Fyraltari]

When was the Mechane Dimensionally Locked?

Works better than a restraining order against abusive fathers. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

[Ron Miel]

Anyone know what the title refers to?


The two lovers, I would wager.


Quote from a song, Such Great Heights, by The Postal Service

"I'm thinking it's a sign that the freckles in our eyes are mirror images and when we kiss they're perfectly aligned"

[Peelee]

Works better than a restraining order against abusive fathers. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

Thanks, I'd forgotten and didn't know how far back to look.

[Schroeswald]

Either a typo or a rift in the space-time continuum.

Oh come on, we all know that one of those is much more likely than the other, and its ridiculous to present them as equal likelihood.Which one is more likely? Well thats obvious, stop asking dumb questions.

[understatement]

This strip is so full of win. I cannot wait to see what happens.

[Fyraltari]

Oh come on, we all know that one of those is much more likely than the other, and its ridiculous to present them as equal likelihood.
To my knowledge, "either" does not imply equal probability, am I mistaken ? :smallconfused:

[Vendanna]

New comic is up.

Thank you for the comic, Rich. but I'm a bit confused with this, on the left side of the page the Comic is listed as 1201 "The Freckles in Their Eye" while the thread name is 1202

Is this a unveil of an extra strip? or just a slip of the finger?

Thank you for your time, and wish you a happy week.

[Peelee]

To my knowledge, "either" does not imply equal probability, am I mistaken ? :smallconfused:

No, that is correct. But putting "rift in the space-time continuum" second implied it was less likely than the clearly joking possibility of "typo".

[Afghanistan]

D'aww I think that is really nice. It might have come out of left field, but it was extremely wholesome and I love it and support their relationship :smallbiggrin:

[Bedinsis]

Die with the rest of the planet?

Roy and the casters could die while ending the threat of Xykon. Which would leave the survivors stuck on the north pole without any means of contacting the Mechane.

[Rogar Demonblud]

In which case they get to walk out.

And thanks Elan, I needed that.

[Fyraltari]

Roy and the casters could die while ending the threat of Xykon. Which would leave the survivors stuck on the north pole without any means of contacting the Mechane.

Without any news for a time she might hire a caster to Send to them, then I guess.

[Peelee]

Roy and the casters could die while ending the threat of Xykon. Which would leave the survivors stuck on the north pole without any means of contacting the Mechane.

That would be an issue for the survivors, but less so for Captain Bandanna and the Mechane.

[Snails]

The same way any salesmen of potions manage to get to the room before the final boss regardless of the level of the enemies around them.

When you explain it that way it totally ma....what?!? :smallamused:

Okay, now I am seeing some point to Julia's visit. Obviously it was laying pipe for some future event, but I could now see obvious ways for her to get in the game or even influence it. But with the Mechane link established as possible to occur offscreen, there are many many possibilities if the Order needs a fall back position or reinforcements after some grueling battles.

Clearly, it cannot be so simple as the Order jumps Team Evil and someone wins. I am expecting other players to arrive and confuse the situation. Somehow.

[DaOldeWolf]

Good thing about the eyepatches, since they can see each other while kissing. Also, there it is, the last dungeon salesman. :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

That would be an issue for the survivors, but less so for Captain Bandanna and the Mechane.

While she probably wouldn't shed a tear for Belkar (and even then) and don't know Minrah she would probably try to rescue Elan and Haley if she could.

[The MunchKING]

Without any news for a time she might hire a caster to Send to them, then I guess.

Well she's also a mid-to-high level pirate. She may just swing by the next time there's a hit reasonably far north to check on them.

[Snails]

Roy and the casters could die while ending the threat of Xykon. Which would leave the survivors stuck on the north pole without any means of contacting the Mechane.

As a theoretical matter, that is easily possible. Surely, eventually, someone will inquire as to why there are neither triumphant heroes nor a shattered world. Bandanna is likely to, and Julia might prod her, especially if she can no longer contact her living brother. Since Bandanna is capable and reasonably heroic, she would probably take the Mechane on an investigative spin in a few weeks.

[Fyraltari]

Well she's also a mid-to-high level pirate. She may just swing by the next time there's a hit reasonably far north to check on them.

I am assuming that there's not many hits up the freaking North Pole. Nor that anybody stranded there could wait long.

[TuringTest]

Wow, the comic in the future is amazing. Glorious. We are not worthy!


Actually, it is! I don't know if putting the wrong number is a slip, but it make me look the next unpublished strip for the first time, and I found this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html).

Also, it made me find this easter egg (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots9999.html) in the 404 page that I also hadn't seen before.

[hamishspence]

Works better than a restraining order against abusive fathers. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html)

Eugene's still able to visit Roy actually, only a week or so after that:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1045.html

[Fyraltari]

Actually, it is! I don't know if putting the wrong number is a slip, but it make me look the next unpublished strip for the first time, and I found this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html).

Also, it made me find this easter egg (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots9999.html) in the 404 page that I also hadn't seen before.
Ooh, nice.

Eugene's still able to visit Roy actually, only a week or so after that:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1045.html

Didn't say it was perfect.

[Resileaf]

My favorite 'merchant before the final boss' trope is the Resident Evil 4 merchant. Follows Leon through the entire game, which has almost no safe areas, ready to sell him stuff wherever he is... And also sets up shooting range minigames in the middle of a large castle filled with deadly traps.

[Jasdoif]

O'aka pretty much just explicitly follows you guys around while not doing anything that gets him in trouble with the religious group that ends up fighting you. SO he doesn't have to fight the people and can easily get where ever your going to be without needing to worry about bosses. But he is still bothered by monsters, which explains a lot of stretches without him. The rest I don't know how they do it. :smalltongue:Good thing O'aka (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/O'aka_XXIII) or his ersatz counterpart is the one on the Mechane, then o_o

[chy03001]

You know it's the final dungeon when the guy with the basic potions pops up :-D

[Peelee]

While she probably wouldn't shed a tear for Belkar (and even then) and don't know Minrah she would probably try to rescue Elan and Haley if she could.

Oh I agree, but both casters and Roy dying while the others remaining alive while they also achieved the goal is a rather specific level to achieve, and there's a million different ways the "what if" game could be played.

Or, put more simply, they can cross that bridge when they come to it.

[Fyraltari]

Oh I agree, but both casters and Roy dying while the others remaining alive while they also achieved the goal is a rather specific level to achieve, and there's a million different ways the "what if" game could be played.

Or, put more simply, they can cross that bridge when they come to it.

Yeah which is why I suggested hiring a caster to send to them first.

[The MunchKING]

I am assuming that there's not many hits up the freaking North Pole. Nor that anybody stranded there could wait long.

I thought they had maps of the passes because that's where the rich trade from the Dwarves went through to get to the other countries (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html).

SO they're like "let's hang around here hitting rich Dwarf Platinum for a while and crashing in Tinkertown for a few weeks" and then when they don't hear anything from V or Durkon they go back to the North Pole to see if anything changed.

And while REAL Humans might have a hard time surviving at the North Pole, these ARE high level Fantasy Heroes with Magic and stuff. They could probably hold out as long as they needed. Especially given there's a city near there which shows there is food and fresh water nearby.

[Lheticus]

Okay, am I the only one who has no idea what the deal is with the title on this one?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, am I the only one who has no idea what the deal is with the title on this one?


Quote from a song, Such Great Heights, by The Postal Service

"I'm thinking it's a sign that the freckles in our eyes are mirror images and when we kiss they're perfectly aligned"

GW c

[hroþila]

I've listened to "Such Great Heights" about a million times and I'm perfectly familiar with the vendor before the boss fight trope, and I still missed both. I'm embarrassing.

[Lkctgo]

Roy and the casters could die while ending the threat of Xykon. Which would leave the survivors stuck on the north pole without any means of contacting the Mechane.

One would reasonably assume that since this "leave immediately" plan seemed pre-planned by Roy, he probably talked about it through with Julia during their "strategy discussion" session. I think it's likely that he'd already planned for her to cast sending to him (and then individual non-sending capable members of the order) should she not receive a reply from Roy.

[Rizzer]

Quote from a song, Such Great Heights, by The Postal Service

"I'm thinking it's a sign that the freckles in our eyes are mirror images and when we kiss they're perfectly aligned"

Ah, then it's their eyepatches which are the freckles!

They've got them on opposite eyes, perfectly aligned.

[Reboot]

While she probably wouldn't shed a tear for Belkar (and even then) and don't know Minrah she would probably try to rescue Elan and Haley if she could.

Dream (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dream.htm) is a Bard spell, and even if Elan doesn't have it now, he'll certainly level up by the time this is over. Plus, there's always Haley's "Schrodinger's Wands".

[bunsen_h]

And while REAL Humans might have a hard time surviving at the North Pole, these ARE high level Fantasy Heroes with Magic and stuff. They could probably hold out as long as they needed. Especially given there's a city near there which shows there is food and fresh water nearby.

The bugbears "mine" the dungeon doors for food, i.e. slain monsters. As long as the OOTS survivors have a source of heat, they'd probably be okay for a long time. They might even be able to come to some agreement with the bugbears, trading their service for shelter; the bugbears strike me as pragmatists.

EDIT: The gods are keeping a close eye on these events, so I assume that they would be able to get a message across to some cleric that the OOTS survivors needed a pick-up.

[Bedinsis]

One would reasonably assume that since this "leave immediately" plan seemed pre-planned by Roy, he probably talked about it through with Julia during their "strategy discussion" session. I think it's likely that he'd already planned for her to cast sending to him should she not receive a reply from Roy.

That makes sense. Better yet, Julia's researched sending spell variant means that if she tries to contact him via it and it fails she knows that the Blood Oath must've been fulfilled, in which case a regular Sending failing would mean that he is dead, and she has to contact Bandana.


(and then individual non-sending capable members of the order)

How would she be able to? A gag a few pages back was about how Julia didn't know who Belkar is, something I suspect extends to the rest of the Order save Roy & Durkon, and Sending requires familarity with the guy on the other end.

[Grey Watcher]

Actually, it is! I don't know if putting the wrong number is a slip, but it make me look the next unpublished strip for the first time, and I found this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html).

Wow. I haven't seen that in years. Maybe even a solid decade. I didn't think it was there anymore, since after a while there was just text in its place.


Also, it made me find this easter egg (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots9999.html) in the 404 page that I also hadn't seen before.

I had not seen that one. Figures that if anyone wanders off the site map, it'd be the MITD.

[Angrith]

Love the final merchant! It's giving me og Zelda vibes.

[bunsen_h]

After they learned about the world inside the rifts from Durkon's passing comment (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html), it seems unlikely to me that Odin and Thor would just drop the matter with a shrug. How would Thor be able to reach out to Durkon to get as much info as Durkon had, or possibly even send some info back if the gods were able to do some investigating themselves?

[Psychronia]

It doesn't matter to the Order, but the crew on the Mechane probably let out a breath of relief because the belligerent sexual tension between those two was stewing for ages.

[Fyraltari]

It doesn't matter to the Order, but the crew on the Mechane probably let out a breath of relief because the belligerent sexual tension between those two was stewing for ages.

Bandana’s confusion tells a different story.

[Agi Hammerthief]

Actually, it is! I don't know if putting the wrong number is a slip, but it make me look the next unpublished strip for the first time, and I found this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html).

Also, it made me find this easter egg (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots9999.html) in the 404 page that I also hadn't seen before.
nice, thanks for sharing

[HeraldOfExius]

Is it just me, or does the kerning seem off when Elan says "long" in panel 6? It looks just fine when Roy says it in the same panel, but it looks kind of like Elan is saying "bng" instead.

If you didn't see that before and now you can't unsee it, then you're welcome.

[gerryq]

Quote from a song, Such Great Heights, by The Postal Service

"I'm thinking it's a sign that the freckles in our eyes are mirror images and when we kiss they're perfectly aligned"

Ah, thanks! I knew there had to be some cultural reference. But in this case I had never heard of the band, let alone the song!

[skim172]

No self-respecting villain could ever maintain their final boss status without providing a potion merchant and a save point.

They'd lose their license otherwise.

[Emperor Time]

Such Great Heights, by The Postal Service is a great song, so it nice to see it lyrics as the title. And must be tough for the potion seller if they have to teleport that far away in order to sell an basic potion.

[137beth]

Nice to see Roy is still thinking about the crew's wellbeing.

[gatemansgc]

YESSS the final merchant! He's everything I ever hoped he would be and more!



:belkar: Feh, they never sell anything but basic potions anyway. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0966.html)

huh, i should have known this was a callback!

also the romance between the two crewmembers was cute!

[Rogar Demonblud]

Bandana’s confusion tells a different story.

Bandana has been shown to be rather ignorant of what's going on with the crew. Hopefully she's getting better since Andi clocked her with that spanner.

[gatemansgc]

Actually, it is! I don't know if putting the wrong number is a slip, but it make me look the next unpublished strip for the first time, and I found this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1202.html).

Also, it made me find this easter egg (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots9999.html) in the 404 page that I also hadn't seen before.

stuff like this makes me love the site even more.

[Reboot]

Wow. I haven't seen that in years. Maybe even a solid decade. I didn't think it was there anymore, since after a while there was just text in its place.

I think it wasn't. The "future comic-specific" redirect probably broke, and the recent server move/site upgrades gave them a chance to reinstate it.

[t209]

I thought the two crews are homosexual couple, until noticing that peg-leg is a male (square hips) while the hook-hand is a female (round hips and her chest is obscure by giant coat).

[Kantaki]

I thought the two crews are homosexual couple, until noticing that peg-leg is a male (square hips) while the hook-hand is a female (round hips and her chest is obscure by giant coat).

Huh. Indeed.
I guess that's one for the "Things I never noticed" thread.

[kiapet]

Good for you, random crew members. Good for you.

I'll be sad to see the Mechane crew go, but it makes sense to make room for other characters and subplots. I enjoyed the time we had with them.

[Ruck]

As I said. Bonus dungeon.
Usually entirely optional and with little to no connection to the (main) plot.
Very often with a boss far stronger than the actual end-boss.

Neo-Xykon Mk VII the Mecha-Lich maybe?:smalltongue:

But this is a story, not a game.


I've listened to "Such Great Heights" about a million times and I'm perfectly familiar with the vendor before the boss fight trope, and I still missed both. I'm embarrassing.

I got the merchant gag, but I have similar feelings about "Such Great Heights." That really should have been right up my alley, and yet...

Also, I didn't get my usual Twitter notification for a new strip, so by the time I found out about this one the thread was already on page 4.

[Lombard]

Some say the Final Boss Merchant is just a mortal being like you and I. Others whisper that he is an immortal who needs neither food nor sustenance and can repair any item instantly. But only if your setting includes item wear Mechanics. . . . . .

[Kantaki]

But this is a story, not a game.

But the world's based on...
You know what? I'm fairly certain the Giant did that gag better.

Point is yes, it is unlikely to come up again in the story. That's the very reason I called it a bonus dungeon.

At best it will come up in the epilogue- either to be immediately dismissed, because it's empty anyway or as a "and the adventures continue" style send off for the order.

[The MunchKING]

I thought the two crews are homosexual couple, until noticing that peg-leg is a male (square hips) while the hook-hand is a female (round hips and her chest is obscure by giant coat).

Huh, I thought they were both dudes too.

[bunsen_h]

Bandana’s confusion tells a different story.

That could also be a "crap, that means that one of them is about to die for dramatic reasons" look.


Huh, I thought they were both dudes too.

Likewise.

[Fish]

Possibly - but more likely is that Xykon's massive deathtrap fortress was a giant waste of time for him...
I think Xykon's Secret Astral Fortress has some out-of-story meaning, as well as some in-story utility.

Out of story, it shows the reader that Xykon is taking sensible precautions against death. He's learned not to be so cavalier about his phylactery. He's worried.

In story, it gives Rich a way for Xykon to instantly know he's been betrayed. Either:
Xykon is destroyed and starts to re-form. He'll expect to find himself in his Top Secret Fort. When he doesn't, he'll know Redcloak cheated him somehow. OR,
Redcloak realizes Xykon will detect such betrayal. If Xykon is in danger of being destroyed, Redcloak has to get back to the Super Secret Treehouse before Xykon wakes up.

[ti'esar]

Ah, thanks! I knew there had to be some cultural reference. But in this case I had never heard of the band, let alone the song!

Ditto.

Also, this strip was hilarious. Completely blindsided me.

[Anansiil]

It's the little things that make us love one another :D

[Ron Miel]

Is it just me, or does the kerning seem off when Elan says "long" in panel 6? It looks just fine when Roy says it in the same panel, but it looks kind of like Elan is saying "bng" instead.

If you didn't see that before and now you can't unsee it, then you're welcome.

You must really hate us. (https://xkcd.com/1015/)

[gerryq]

Such Great Heights, by The Postal Service is a great song, so it nice to see it lyrics as the title. And must be tough for the potion seller if they have to teleport that far away in order to sell an basic potion.


I checked it out on youtube. At first I didn't like it but when I closed my eyes and switched to audio-only, away from the stupid fablab video, the song itself was fine. Honestly, I've rarely seen a song so poorly served by the official video. (Or an unofficial one, for that matter.)

[danielxcutter]

Welp. That was unexpected.

[Latimer]

Anyone know what the title refers to?
Methinks Postal Service lyrics:
I am thinking it's a sign
That the freckles in our eyes
Are mirror images
And when we kiss they're perfectly aligned

[Elanasaurus]

Ohhh he's prone to slipping because of the pegleg :biggrin:

[Necris Omega]

I know Elan's lute is undeniably classic, but in an alternate universe, I could totally see him inserting a sax solo at the end here.

[Alcore]

Welp, I think I'm in full agreement with Elan this time, in pretty much every panel.

And uh... If they're depending on Julia to pass the message and they can only talk so long as his blood oath isn't fulfilled, well? Issue.


The same way any salesmen of potions manage to get to the room before the final boss regardless of the level of the enemies around them.

Grey Wolf
I always thought they were let in by the monsters. Depending on the game and difficulty they drop healing stuff too. And what merchant wouldn't sit before a boss battle? All that revenue they rake in... the boss is the one place guaranteed to have heroes approaching.

[Mic_128]

Without any news for a time she might hire a caster to Send to them, then I guess.

Bandana did say she was going to hire a Wizard when they got to Tinkertown. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1079.html)

[druid91]

Huh, if the final dungeon merchant pops up here does that mean... Xykon's Astral Tomb-Fortress is a bonus dungeon?:smallbiggrin:

Why would they need to go there?

[danielxcutter]

Methinks Postal Service lyrics:
I am thinking it's a sign
That the freckles in our eyes
Are mirror images
And when we kiss they're perfectly aligned

I’m sorry to say that you’ve apparently been ninja’d by the entire relevant population of Azure City.

[bunsen_h]

Huh, if the final dungeon merchant pops up here does that mean... Xykon's Astral Tomb-Fortress is a bonus dungeon?:smallbiggrin:


Why would they need to go there?

Someone triggering an alarm there is an excellent way to get Xykon to drop whatever he's doing and rush there to investigate.

[AlurenDarkfire]

Love the callback to Belkar's "They only sell basic potions anyway" line.

[Kantaki]

Why would they need to go there?

They don't need to.
That's why it's a bonus dungeon.:smalltongue:

[Voyager]

Yeah, I also saw the Final Boss Potion vendor pop up, and thought This is it!

Hype mode engaged. Has it really been twelve years since I started reading this?

[aldeayeah]

Airship - Check

Final dungeon - Check

Ominous music - Loading...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeAkwI7rjQA

[Wowlock]

The potion seller feels weirdly ominous. Am I forgetting a reference?

It is the ''Vendor before the final boss''.

[pendell]

This is the first strip I've really laughed at in a long , long time. Both the resolution of the subplot of which I was unaware up to now, and the re-appearance of O'aka XXIII , merchant extraordinaire! (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/O%27aka_XXIII) Or at least his expy, because that would violate copyright!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[braveheart]

It's time for the final boss rush, everything I've been reading here for the last 10 years will get payed off, and we finally din out exactly what is under the umbrella!

[HandofShadows]

Not often we see Elan at a loss of words like that. :smallcool::smallbiggrin:

[Finagle]

Huh, if the final dungeon merchant pops up here does that mean... Xykon's Astral Tomb-Fortress is a bonus dungeon?:smallbiggrin:
Why do people keep bringing this up? It's a red herring. Xykon's Astral fortress is completely empty and devoid of anything interesting except traps. Even if someone did dig into the center of it, the prize is...the fake phylactery. It's about as valuable as a cheap plastic imitation of the Amulet of Yendor.

[jwhouk]

It's time for the final boss rush, everything I've been reading here for the last 10 years will get payed off, and we finally din out exactly what is under the umbrella!

I get the feeling that MITD's reveal will be on the very last page of OOTS.


Why do people keep bringing this up? It's a red herring. Xykon's Astral fortress is completely empty and devoid of anything interesting except traps. Even if someone did dig into the center of it, the prize is...the fake phylactery. It's about as valuable as a cheap plastic imitation of the Amulet of Yendor.

"I'm sorry, Roy, but the phylactery you are looking for is in another castle!"

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why do people keep bringing this up? It's a red herring. Xykon's Astral fortress is completely empty and devoid of anything interesting except traps. Even if someone did dig into the center of it, the prize is...the fake phylactery. It's about as valuable as a cheap plastic imitation of the Amulet of Yendor.

Like someone said, because it is a convenient distraction. "Oh no, Xykon is about to take control of a mcGuffin!" "Let's teleport to his tomb, right now". Xykon gets informed by an alarm of someone entering his tomb, he panics and leaves to defend his phylactery, and the mcGuffin is saved.


I get the feeling that MITD's reveal will be on the very last page of OOTS.

He's not that important. I'd expect the MitD reveal to be a key moment in the fight against Xykon and RC, maybe a turning point, but it's not likely it'll be the final moment of the strip.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Someone triggering an alarm there is an excellent way to get Xykon to drop whatever he's doing and rush there to investigate.

Oooh, this I could see being an interesting way to get him out there. I still don't think the Order will follow him there.

[Fyraltari]

Hey that's weird, some of the posts have the thread titled as #1201.

[hamishspence]

You're able to change the title of your post, when posting.

[Fyraltari]

You're able to change the title of your post, when posting.
But I didn't for that one:


Die with the rest of the planet?

It looks like it is doing it automatically on this very post though.

[hamishspence]

Replying to somebody else's post, changes the title of yours. to to "RE: (whatever they've titled it)".

[littlebum2002]

I thought the two crews are homosexual couple, until noticing that peg-leg is a male (square hips) while the hook-hand is a female (round hips and her chest is obscure by giant coat).

I thought so too, and didn't notice the hips, but remember they're a good rule of thumb, but are not 100% accurate. After all, Miko had square hips.

[Phexar]

Ah, was gonna explain the End Dungeon (or at least Climactic Dungeon) Merchant but folks beat me to it.

Possibly the funniest example would be the one from Final Fantasy X who tries to sell you his wares while standing aboard an airship that is actively under attack. When someone points out to him that he shouldn't charge them since, if they fail, he dies too, he just coolly responds "I am confident in your victory."


Good thing O'aka (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/O'aka_XXIII) or his ersatz counterpart is the one on the Mechane, then o_o

I noticed that too! It's a nice reference to O'aka from FFX, I thought the merchant's clothing seemed familiar.

[hamishspence]

I thought so too, and didn't notice the hips, but remember they're a good rule of thumb, but are not 100% accurate. After all, Miko had square hips.

True - but I don't think there's ever been any characters with the "round hips" and a beard or moustache, or referring to themselves as male.

"Square hips represent males" has a few exceptions. "Round hips represent females" has no exceptions that I know of in OOTS.

"Eyes closer to mouth" is another common way of representing female characters in OOTS.

So:

"square hips, no bust, eyes far from mouth, and 5 o'clock shadow" on Peg-Leg - probably male.
"bust, round hips, eyes close to mouth, no facial hair" on Hook-Hand - probably female.

[Schroeswald]

True - but I don't think there's ever been any characters with the "round hips" and a beard or moustache.

"Square hips represent males" has a few exceptions. "Round hips represent females" has no exceptions that I know of in OOTS.

"Eyes closer to mouth" is another common way of representing female characters in OOTS.

Also the female one has curves to show her breasts, which is another pretty good way to show that a character is a woman.

Although I will say that the eyes thing is more to do with how low someone's hairline would be and the eye go right about in the middle of the mouth and wherever the hairline, and generally the girls have more hair that goes farther into their faces.

[hamishspence]

Although I will say that the eyes thing is more to do with how low someone's hairline would be and the eye go right about in the middle of the mouth and wherever the hairline, and generally the girls have more hair that goes farther into their faces.


Maybe up to a point - but I'm pretty sure Elan's eyes are noticeably further up than Haley's despite both of them having hair. Though I'd agree the bald male characters tend to have eyes high up.

Roy, when turned into a woman, promptly has eyes move closer to mouth, despite not growing hair.

[mjasghar]

The eyes mouth thing is probably a way to show the general tendency of men to have longer jawlines

[Schroeswald]

Maybe up to a point - but I'm pretty sure Elan's eyes are noticeably further up than Haley's despite both of them having hair. Though I'd agree the bald male characters tend to have eyes high up.

Roy, when turned into a woman, promptly has eyes move closer to mouth, despite not growing hair.

Looking at it, Elan and Haley seem to me to have about the same eyeline (currently, but it might just be perspective), but Haley's hair also goes much further down, about a third of her head down in the area above the eyes, compared to Elan's small fraction of his head in the area above his eyes.

As for Roy, while he started off bald he very quickly got a wig, which I presume is where the eye adjustments came from, it would probably look a bit weird for his eyes to move down to where they'd be comfortable right in the middle of the page.

[bunsen_h]

"square hips, no bust, eyes far from mouth, and 5 o'clock shadow" on Peg-Leg - probably male.
"bust, round hips, eyes close to mouth, no facial hair" on Hook-Hand - probably female.

Stereotypically, the "sweep them off their feet" straight-couple smooch has the guy supporting the girl. (There are several factors there: strength, and "aggressiveness" / dominance.) In this case, the pretty-clearly-implied-to-be-male Peg-Leg is swept up by Hook-Hand. On consideration, that's probably for the best considering that the latter has both legs for stability, but it may have affected my initial impression that Hook was also male.

[KorvinStarmast]

Welp. That was unexpected.
Which is quite different from "Whelp? That was unexpected! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1105.html)" as seen here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1106.html).

[hamishspence]

Stereotypically, the "sweep them off their feet" straight-couple smooch has the guy supporting the girl. (There are several factors there: strength, and "aggressiveness" / dominance.) In this case, the pretty-clearly-implied-to-be-male Peg-Leg is swept up by Hook-Hand. On consideration, that's probably for the best considering that the latter has both legs for stability, but it may have affected my initial impression that Hook was also male.

The Giant seems to like inverting stereotypes now and again:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0590.html




Haley's hair also goes much further down, about a third of her head down in the area above the eyes, compared to Elan's small fraction of his head in the area above his eyes.

Loki and Hel might be better example of "both have plenty of hair on top of head, but eyes and mouth are still positioned differently":


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html

[Schroeswald]

Loki and Hel might be better example of "both have plenty of hair on top of head, but eyes and mouth are still positioned differently":


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1176.html

Okay, yup, you're right about that, gender does in fact matter a good deal for eye level, in my defense the place I stole my argument from didn't live in a world where either of them were important enough to notice them :smalltongue:

[Lord Torath]

Is it just me, or does the kerning seem off when Elan says "long" in panel 6? It looks just fine when Roy says it in the same panel, but it looks kind of like Elan is saying "bng" instead.
You must really hate us. (https://xkcd.com/1015/)The guy running this focus group, too (https://youtu.be/tnzz-eFmKaw?t=3).

[Ruck]

But I didn't for that one:



It looks like it is doing it automatically on this very post though.


Replying to somebody else's post, changes the title of yours. to to "RE: (whatever they've titled it)".

Yeah, and if you quick reply, I think it just uses the subject line of the last post in the thread.

[ti'esar]

I noticed that too! It's a nice reference to O'aka from FFX, I thought the merchant's clothing seemed familiar.

Oh, wow, that's amazing! I didn't pick up on that until now.

[Schroeswald]

Replying to somebody else's post, changes the title of yours. to to "RE: (whatever they've titled it)".


Yeah, and if you quick reply, I think it just uses the subject line of the last post in the thread.
Yup, that is how it works (I did some testing by choosing Hamishpence's as well, I'm not really responding to him).

[JonahFalcon]

I'm pretending they're both guys. Heck, the beardless one could pass.

[Emanick]

I've listened to "Such Great Heights" about a million times and I'm perfectly familiar with the vendor before the boss fight trope, and I still missed both. I'm embarrassing.

I got the vendor joke immediately despite only having played one game that used the trope - and that seventeen years ago, back when I was like 10 - but completely missed the "Such Great Heights" reference, despite having listened to the song dozens of times. Go figure.

[understatement]

Is Roy going to be wearing that green hat when he fights Xykon?

Also, uh, how is the Order planning on sneaking up onto Team Evil? I think the latter would definitely notice footprints in the snow...

[Emanick]

Is Roy going to be wearing that green hat when he fights Xykon?

Also, uh, how is the Order planning on sneaking up onto Team Evil? I think the latter would definitely notice footprints in the snow...

If they're smart and lucky, they'll ambush Team Evil as they exit one of the tombs. Footprints in the snow shouldn't make that much more difficult.

Now, I doubt that'll actually happen, but there's no in-universe reason to doubt it yet, IIRC.

[Finagle]

Like someone said, because it is a convenient distraction. "Oh no, Xykon is about to take control of a mcGuffin!" "Let's teleport to his tomb, right now". Xykon gets informed by an alarm of someone entering his tomb, he panics and leaves to defend his phylactery, and the mcGuffin is saved.
That's a ... weird theory, but okay. How's anyone supposed to find the place? The Astral plane is infinite. I don't think Redcloak can even find it.

But that's irrelevant, because Team Evil are the only people who know it even exists. How would anyone even have the idea to mess with it if they don't even know it exists? "Hey everyone, let's teleport to the secret location that Xykon keeps his phylactery, even though nobody knows!"

I get the idea some overly excitable people saw the fortress, immediately leaped to "Dungeon crawl!" and assumed it would be part of the story. Nah. It's a dead-end. It'll never be seen again, and only referred to in the inevitable "You're trying to betray me, but I'll just easily regenerate and come back" speech that Xykon is due to give Redcloak.

[Particle_Man]

That's a ... weird theory, but okay. How's anyone supposed to find the place? The Astral plane is infinite. I don't think Redcloak can even find it.

But that's irrelevant, because Team Evil are the only people who know it even exists. How would anyone even have the idea to mess with it if they don't even know it exists? "Hey everyone, let's teleport to the secret location that Xykon keeps his phylactery, even though nobody knows!"

I get the idea some overly excitable people saw the fortress, immediately leaped to "Dungeon crawl!" and assumed it would be part of the story. Nah. It's a dead-end. It'll never be seen again, and only referred to in the inevitable "You're trying to betray me, but I'll just easily regenerate and come back" speech that Xykon is due to give Redcloak.

Durkon knows it exists because Thor told him, right?

[JonahFalcon]

It'll never be seen again, and only referred to in the inevitable "You're trying to betray me, but I'll just easily regenerate and come back" speech that Xykon is due to give Redcloak.

Er, that's not going to work since Redcloak squirreled away his phyllactery, no? If he's destroyed, he'll return to the phyllactery, not some astral plane fortress.

[Mic_128]

Er, that's not going to work since Redcloak squirreled away his phyllactery, no? If he's destroyed, he'll return to the phyllactery, not some astral plane fortress.

You're correct in that it won't work, but Xykon doesn't know what. He'd make the speech and then find himself in a rather different situation than planned.

[factotum]

Er, that's not going to work since Redcloak squirreled away his phyllactery, no? If he's destroyed, he'll return to the phyllactery, not some astral plane fortress.

Neither him nor the Order know that, though--if they somehow defeat Xykon here *without* destroying him, he might well go running for the fortress and they'll have to follow him to finish the job.

[Peelee]

Neither him nor the Order know that, though--if they somehow defeat Xykon here *without* destroying him, he might well go running for the fortress and they'll have to follow him to finish the job.

Five gold on that not happening.

[Fyraltari]

Neither him nor the Order know that, though--if they somehow defeat Xykon here *without* destroying him, he might well go running for the fortress and they'll have to follow him to finish the job.

Why would he go to where he hid his phylactery? Why would he run anywhere even?

[Peelee]

Why would he go to where he hid his phylactery? Why would he run anywhere even?

Also a good point. In fact, running to where he hid his phylactery would be the last thing he would want to do, since he would end up there regardless and it would only let his enemies have a chance to follow him. If he needs to be on the same plane, then sure, he could hop on over to the Astral plane, but it's infinite, so it's not like he'd need to go to the fortress.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's a ... weird theory, but okay. How's anyone supposed to find the place? The Astral plane is infinite. I don't think Redcloak can even find it.

Xykon took Redcloak there to cast a bunch of wards and trap spells on it. RC knows where it is. He doesn't care, because he knows the whole thing is a red herring for the heroes and a false comfort for Xykon.

[bunsen_h]

Xykon took Redcloak there to cast a bunch of wards and trap spells on it. RC knows where it is. He doesn't care, because he knows the whole thing is a red herring for the heroes and a false comfort for Xykon.

His knowing where it is is crucial to the "distract Xykon by trigging an alarm there" possible plan.

[hroþila]

Being gated to a fortress in the middle of a void doesn't mean you know where the fortress is or that you can get there by yourself, though.

[mucat]

I thought so too, and didn't notice the hips, but remember they're a good rule of thumb, but are not 100% accurate. After all, Miko had square hips.
Miko was wearing armor. Characters in heavy armor are drawn with square hips whether male or female. (The Azure City infantry, for example.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Being gated to a fortress in the middle of a void doesn't mean you know where the fortress is or that you can get there by yourself, though.

You can plane shift to a place you've been before. Or is nothing else, plane shift to the astral and then use Word of Recall to go exactly where you want to go.

As for the other thing, they were there long enough to cast a boatload of spells. RC had plenty of time to ping his location. Not that such a thing is needed by the rules--you just know the coordinates if you're there.

[Jasdoif]

You can plane shift to a place you've been before. Or is nothing else, plane shift to the astral and then use Word of Recall to go exactly where you want to go.Plane shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm), wind walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm), and find the path (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findThePath.htm). Bypasses the annoyances of word of recall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm) (most significantly, what constitutes "a very familiar place" and needing to designate said place in advance).

[Peelee]

Plane shift (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm), wind walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm), and find the path (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findThePath.htm). Bypasses the annoyances of word of recall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm) (most significantly, what constitutes "a very familiar place" and needing to designate said place in advance).

Is Wind Walk strictly necessary? I thought on the Astral Plane, one could move simply by wanting to.

[Emanick]

Is Wind Walk strictly necessary? I thought on the Astral Plane, one could move simply by wanting to.

Not strictly necessary, no, but 20 times as fast as normal movement on the Astral Plane, assuming an Intelligence score of 10. So if time is a relevant factor, it's enormously useful.

[Fyraltari]

Not strictly necessary, no, but 20 times as fast as normal movement on the Astral Plane, assuming an Intelligence score of 10. So if time is a relevant factor, it's enormously useful.

I’m not sure if speed is really relevant when moving on inifinite distances.

[Emanick]

I’m not sure if speed is really relevant when moving on inifinite distances.

It is when using finicky tools like Plane Shift, which can put you dozens or hundreds, but not millions, of miles from your intended target.

[Jasdoif]

Is Wind Walk strictly necessary? I thought on the Astral Plane, one could move simply by wanting to.Not strictly, no; it's not as significant as it is in more terrestrial environments. But even so, wind walk is twice as fast as the "falling with style" method of normal movement in subjective directional gravity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#subjectiveDirectionalGravity), and you might want to cut your transit time by several hours if you're near the top end of plane shift's 5-500 mile offset. (The greater maneuverability is also a feature, as in most circumstances where that matters, you would rather avoid the chance of losing a round to a failed ability check)

[Peelee]

I’m not sure if speed is really relevant when moving on inifinite distances.

Not so! The plane covers an infinite distance, but the space between any two points is always going to be finite.

I now await one more educated in math than I to correct me on that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not so! The plane covers an infinite distance, but the space between any two points is always going to be finite.

If any two points are separated by a finite distance, you could find the two points with the maximum distance between them, and create sphere with that diameter that encompasses all points in the plane, thus proving it is not infinite.

I think.

(this explanation is based on the fact that there are infinite numbers between 0 and 1, but that doesn't mean the distance between 0 and 1 is infinite. Presumably, and infinite plane is not that kind of infinite)

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

If any two points are separated by a finite distance, you could find the two points with the maximum distance between them, and create sphere with that diameter that encompasses all points in the plane, thus proving it is not infinite.

I think.

(this explanation is based on the fact that there are infinite numbers between 0 and 1, but that doesn't mean the distance between 0 and 1 is infinite. Presumably, and infinite plane is not that kind of infinite)

Grey Wolf

It's been a while since my last math class, so I'm going to butcher the terms here, I'm sure, but wouldn't an infinite plane be countably infinite, and the set of numbers between 0 and 1 be uncountably infinite?

[Fyraltari]

If any two points are separated by a finite distance, you could find the two points with the maximum distance between them, and create sphere with that diameter that encompasses all points in the plane, thus proving it is not infinite.

I think.
Nope. Infinity means that for any given distance you can find two points separated by a greater distance. That second distance will be finite but that doesn’t change anything.

Think of it like that. The difference between two integers is always finite (it’s an integer) but there is no distance so great that I can’t find two integers separated by a greater distance.


(this explanation is based on the fact that there are infinite numbers between 0 and 1, but that doesn't mean the distance between 0 and 1 is infinite. Presumably, and infinite plane is not that kind of infinite)
That depends on what you mean by ‘the distance between 0 and 1’. There’s an infinity of real numbers in there.

[Arathorne]

It's been a while since my last math class, so I'm going to butcher the terms here, I'm sure, but wouldn't an infinite plane be countably infinite, and the set of numbers between 0 and 1 be uncountably infinite?

We are rather mixing different branches of mathematics. The distance between two points is based on Geometry. Number the values as infinite between 0 and 1 is more like Calculus. While a "plane" may be infinite there is always a "finite" distance between two points on that plane. So it appears that all the "arguments" evaluate to true (logically speaking)

[rbetieh]

Did anyone else decide to look for comic 1202 because of the name of this discussion thread only to be yelled at by Belkar?

Masterful trolling, you should make like 20 different jokes for future strip lookup so as to keep it fresh :smallsmile:

[F.Harr]

It is clever. Or would be if I didn't suspect it was a mistake.

Anyway, it's time, damnit. I love you. She doesn't actually read this, I'm practicing here.

Oh, he meant anyone in the comic. Never mind.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Ooh countability is always fun. So, there are uncountably many points on the real number line between 0 and 1. But, there are also uncountably many points on the real number line, or in the plane. However, I think it’s correct to say the distance between any two points is finite, since distance kind of has to be an actual number, not just infinity.

[Feruk]

If any two points are separated by a finite distance, you could find the two points with the maximum distance between them, and create sphere with that diameter that encompasses all points in the plane, thus proving it is not infinite.

I think.

(this explanation is based on the fact that there are infinite numbers between 0 and 1, but that doesn't mean the distance between 0 and 1 is infinite. Presumably, and infinite plane is not that kind of infinite)

Grey Wolf

This might be a better way to think about it - you've already said that the distance between 0 and 1 is finite, thus the distance between any two integers is finite. There are an infinite number of integers, each separated by a finite distance, much analogous to the plane, where there's infinite locations with finite distances between each? The 0 and 1 example surely only works when there's fixed boundaries of the plane, I'd have thought.

[Snails]

Think of it like that. The difference between two integers is always finite (it’s an integer) but there is no distance so great that I can’t find two integers separated by a greater distance.

Correct.

Another way to look at it that may be easier on most people:

Just because an individual human may be limited in lifespan does not mean the human race has an intrinsic time before which extinction must occur. The physical constraints of the cosmology of our universe may impose a hard limit, but specifically the finiteness of an individual does not.

Likewise, just because I may effectively map the D&D plane of existence I live in with very very long pieces of finite length magical string does not mean it will not take literally forever to map the whole thing.

[Snails]

This might be a better way to think about it - you've already said that the distance between 0 and 1 is finite, thus the distance between any two integers is finite. There are an infinite number of integers, each separated by a finite distance, much analogous to the plane, where there's infinite locations with finite distances between each? The 0 and 1 example surely only works when there's fixed boundaries of the plane, I'd have thought.

This may be a tangent (no pun intended), but you may be equating a closed (endpoints included) line segment [0, 1] with an open (endpoints excluded) line segment (0, 1). There are important differences.

(0, 1) can have a precise 1-to-1 mapping to the infinite line.* Not true about [0, 1].

And this trivially extends to Euclidean spaces of any number of dimensions.


* If you want an example of what such could look like: Imagine a point. Then image that point with an open half circle segment below it, representing (0, 1), with your starting point as the center axis. Now imagine the infinite number line below that. Every point on the half circle corresponds to exactly one point on the infinite line by drawing a ray from the center point, and vice versa. And the relationship between the two corresponding points can be computed using 11th grade trigonometry, finding an angle as an intermediate number to simplify the math.

[Snails]

However, I think it’s correct to say the distance between any two points is finite, since distance kind of has to be an actual number, not just infinity.

That is one of the requirements for a space to be a Metric Space.

Spaces that are similar to Euclidean or the R2 Sphere are all (surely) metric spaces. Spaces that are highly Euclidean locally but may be stranger at larger scales (weird curves, black holes connecting, etc.) are also surely metric spaces. Things that show up in D&D all look like metrics spaces, similar to Euclidean at the local level, but might have oddities on a larger scale.

Unless you start getting into abstract things like functions spaces (e.g. you are doing Fourier transforms or something even more exotic), your space/plane is surely a metric space. Mind you, it is possible for a metric space to be bizarre. But it cannot be so bizarre as to not have a definite finite distance between two points.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That is one of the requirements for a space to be a Metric Space.

Spaces that are similar to Euclidean or the R2 Sphere are all (surely) metric spaces. Spaces that are highly Euclidean locally but may be stranger at larger scales (weird curves, black holes connecting, etc.) are also surely metric spaces. Things that show up in D&D all look like metrics spaces, similar to Euclidean at the local level, but might have oddities on a larger scale.

Unless you start getting into abstract things like functions spaces (e.g. you are doing Fourier transforms or something even more exotic), your space/plane is surely a metric space. Mind you, it is possible for a metric space to be bizarre. But it cannot be so bizarre as to not have a definite finite distance between two points.
I‘m glad to have some confirmation, since I‘m still learning a lot of this stuff. :smallsmile:

Some function spaces are metrizable, at least, right? Although, yes, I’m guessing you wouldn’t encounter one of those as a D&D space. :smalltongue:

[Doug Lampert]

This may be a tangent (no pun intended), but you may be equating a closed (endpoints included) line segment [0, 1] with an open (endpoints excluded) line segment (0, 1). There are important differences.

(0, 1) can have a precise 1-to-1 mapping to the infinite line.* Not true about [0, 1].

And this trivially extends to Euclidean spaces of any number of dimensions.


* If you want an example of what such could look like: Imagine a point. Then image that point with an open half circle segment below it, representing (0, 1), with your starting point as the center axis. Now imagine the infinite number line below that. Every point on the half circle corresponds to exactly one point on the infinite line by drawing a ray from the center point, and vice versa. And the relationship between the two corresponding points can be computed using 11th grade trigonometry, finding an angle as an intermediate number to simplify the math.

Not quite true, given any one to one and onto mapping of (0,1) to the reals, there is fairly trivially construction of such a mapping for [0,1]*, but the [0,1] mapping will not preserve the ordering of the points or the topological features that depend on the metric.

*Consider a 1 to 1 and onto mapping f:(0,1) => R. Now define f' as equal to f except that any point x where f(x) is a positive integer has f'(x)=f(x)+2, then add that f'(0)=1 and f'(1)=2. Done. I've created a countably infinite number of discontinuities in the map, but it is still one to one and onto.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Elan.... Is amazing.

[Ironsmith]

If any two points are separated by a finite distance, you could find the two points with the maximum distance between them, and create sphere with that diameter that encompasses all points in the plane, thus proving it is not infinite.

I think.

(this explanation is based on the fact that there are infinite numbers between 0 and 1, but that doesn't mean the distance between 0 and 1 is infinite. Presumably, and infinite plane is not that kind of infinite)

Grey Wolf

That explanation kind of ignores the obvious, though; namely, that the space is infinite and there doesn't exist a pair of points with a maximum distance between them. Kind of like the traditional Cartesian system; you can always be further from the origin, but no matter where you are, your distance from the origin is always finite. As all points are a transformation of the origin, all points on the plane share these properties.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Stupid idea: the astral fortress will be a bonus dungeon visited in a bonus book after the main plot wraps. Among other things is a boss rush.

I'd favor

Guardian monster and narrator (DCF bonus)
Trigak (see! there was a reason they had a name!)
Four horsemen: undead blackguard Miko, the death night, the eye of fear and flame, and the hecuva.
Qarr and Giant demon friend.
Mother and son black dragons
The sandworm (now immune to enchantments). Section of the fight where it swallows the entire party and they have to fight the bandits in it's stomach.
Silicone, chlorine, and titanium elementals.
Bozzok as a steampunk cyborg, Crystal the flesh golem, and a crystal golem named Flesh.
The entire order of the stick as vampires
Xykon the demilitch

It's been a while since my last math class, so I'm going to butcher the terms here, I'm sure, but wouldn't an infinite plane be countably infinite, and the set of numbers between 0 and 1 be uncountably infinite?D&D presumably uses the classical definition of infinity, to which modern set theory doesn't apply.

The set of "real" numbers between 0 and 1 is uncountable, but that is also a set cannot have any physical meaning. All numbers that can have physical meaning are constructable and there are only a countably infinite number of them between 0 and 1.

[mjasghar]

D and d planar physics is that a non material plane is physically infinite but with finite locations within and somehow have borders
These locations may themselves be subrealms within the plane and be infinite
And even then they have finite locations within
The way this is handled is that the spaces in between the fixed finite locations are flexible in length. Meanwhile the fixed locations can grow or shrink depending on the power of their ruler.
So you may have clusters of realms or locations on a plane even though the concept of location may seem impossible on an infinite plane
You can even have a centre of a plane that is infinite - specifically mount celestia is at the centre of its plane
Material planes are finite in absolute terms with set locations (depending on DM fiat and setting lore)
Then you have the strange idea of borders between infinite planes and the idea of pathways connecting them
So you can travel a finite period of time to reach multiple locations on different infinite planes
Borders work differently depending on cosmology
Taking the best known pattern - the great wheel - you have 2 ideas
In the elemental and ethereal side you have borders which mix properties. Some of these borders are their own infinite realm - the best examples being the various paraelemntal planes
Other borders are also infinite realms but can only be accessed in special ways - the dream realm is one
On the outer planes side you have separate planes linked by gates - even the various pathways like the Styx and Yggdrasil use gates to actually cross borders

[Ironsmith]

Stupid idea: the astral fortress will be a bonus dungeon visited in a bonus book after the main plot wraps. Among other things is a boss rush.


I don't see much point to that. A video game can get away with having a bonus dungeon as a concession to gameplay over story; the player wants to keep going, even after the narrative gives them no reason to. That doesn't really work in a non-interactive medium; the narrative is pretty much all the comic has. If there is any post-story content (other than the obvious epilogue), it'd likely be a brief return to the gag-a-day style the comic started with (and grew away from, because the overarching narrative is more engaging). A boss rush, especially one with a definite end, wouldn't really work with that style.

[bunsen_h]

You can even have a centre of a plane that is infinite - specifically mount celestia is at the centre of its plane

In the Cartesian plane, we use coordinates, and define (0, 0) as the origin. Is some kind of coordinate system used for navigation in the outer planes, such that the location of Mount Celestia could be meaningfully said to be at the origin? Are locations specified numerically, relative to it? If not, saying that it's at the centre seems to me to be entirely arbitrary.

[Ironsmith]

In the Cartesian plane, we use coordinates, and define (0, 0) as the origin. Is some kind of coordinate system used for navigation in the outer planes, such that the location of Mount Celestia could be meaningfully said to be at the origin? Are locations specified numerically, relative to it? If not, saying that it's at the centre seems to me to be entirely arbitrary.

Mount Celestia is the defining aspect of the plane, though, so it'd be fair to call it the center. As far as coordinates are concerned, though, you'd need more than just a point to define them; you'd need a line defined by a second point. In the Cartesian system, that'll be either the X or Y axis, with the other being defined as the line tangent to the origin and perpendicular to the defined axis.

The mountain works fine as an origin, but without a second fixed point/vector, any attempt at setting a coordinate system is futile. At best, I could see an improvised system using an entry point as defining that vector, which individual plane-hopping expeditions would use to map their voyages. A plane-wide system would be logistically impossible, even with the most law-adherent denizens in the multiverse.

(Side note: if Celestia has infinite height and an infinite base radius, then it has an infinite space off every possible heading from it; changing your heading in relation to Celestia would require travelling an arc length of (h2-h1 * r * d, where r is the radius of the mountain, d is your distance from it, and h2 and h1 are your future and current headings, respectively), and since we just established the radius of the mountain as infinite, the arc length would also be. This would mean that, for all possible headings off the mountain, its edge appears to be a straight line, which actually neatly sets up a coordinate system for every space defined by a heading off the mountain.)

[Mr.Toast]

Hey Giant, can you make the Julio Scoundrèl comics plz:roach::roach::roach:

[Squire Doodad]

There's a bit of a flaw in that if the Blood Oath is broken, then Julia can't be contacted by Roy.
I imagine Julia would be told when the final battle begins by Sending (I don't think Roy can manually talk to her this way), and if she is not contacted after X days she does a Blood Sending to Roy?

Roy presumably would have had the details figured out, and signs point to V and Durkon not getting wiped off the map in the next 100 pages, but part of me is wondering how closely he has been planning his backup.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Julia probably has a check in schedule. And if he dies in a TPK, the powers that be will probably let Eugene go down to Julia so he can tell her the Blood Oath is her responsibility now/gloat about fighter inadequacy and wizard supremacy.

[Peelee]

Julia probably has a check in schedule. And if he dies in a TPK, the powers that be will probably let Eugene go down to Julia so he can tell her the Blood Oath is her responsibility now/gloat about fighter inadequacy and wizard supremacy.

I'm not so sure; I can't imagine the powers that be are open to doing Eugene any favors at this point.

[Fyraltari]

There's a bit of a flaw in that if the Blood Oath is broken, then Julia can't be contacted by Roy.
I imagine Julia would be told when the final battle begins by Sending (I don't think Roy can manually talk to her this way), and if she is not contacted after X days she does a Blood Sending to Roy?

Roy presumably would have had the details figured out, and signs point to V and Durkon not getting wiped off the map in the next 100 pages, but part of me is wondering how closely he has been planning his backup.
Roy cannot cast any spell anyway. Once the Blood Oath is broken Julia can reach him with a simple Sending.

I'm not so sure; I can't imagine the powers that be are open to doing Eugene any favors at this point.
They would if The Book says they have to.

[Peelee]

They would if The Book says they have to.

Indeed, but I doubt The Book says they have to do much of anything for those who aren't even in Celestia yet.

[Squire Doodad]

Roy cannot cast any spell anyway. Once the Blood Oath is broken Julia can reach him with a simple Sending.

Precisely - I assume he'd have to let one of the casters do the sending right before the final battle so Julia knows when the check in.
Come to think of it, if the Blood Sending doesn't work, then that means that Xykon, at least, is dead. Or that Roy is dead/unconcious/etc., depending on how its depicted

[Fyraltari]

Indeed, but I doubt The Book says they have to do much of anything for those who aren't even in Celestia yet.

Presumably they do have to abide by the rules of the Blood Oath (else the Greenhilts wouldn’t be in that situation) so that must be in The Book somewhere.

Also I kinda assumed that The Book was about being Lawful Good in general, not just how to run Celestia.

[Peelee]

Presumably they do have to abide by the rules of the Blood Oath (else the Greenhilts wouldn’t be in that situation) so that must be in The Book somewhere.

Also I kinda assumed that The Book was about being Lawful Good in general, not just how to run Celestia.

I would imagine The Book has something along the lines of, "if one is Lawful and has sworn something, hold them to the thing sworn." Which, in this case, would be Eugene swearing himself out of the afterlife until Xykon is gone.

Laws/rules/whatever-you'd-call-the-text-of-The-Book are fun. You want just the right mix of specific enough to cover something, but vague enough to cover all your bases.

[Schroeswald]

Am I the only one who keeps having to look closely to make sure this isn't the real 1202 thread whenever they reload?

[Peelee]

Am I the only one who keeps having to look closely to make sure this isn't the real 1202 thread whenever they reload?

Nah. That one wouldn't have a check mark beside it.:smallamused:

Response may not be useful for those who have not posted in this thread.

[Schroeswald]

Nah. That one wouldn't have a check mark beside it.:smallamused:

Response may not be useful for those who have not posted in this thread.

Oh I know, and yet every single time I check the comics menu for 1202 and don't think about how the green markey thing is a check instead of a circle until afterwards.

[bunsen_h]

I'm not so sure; I can't imagine the powers that be are open to doing Eugene any favors at this point.

Wasn't there something about Eugene being able to appear only to Roy because Roy was the eldest living child?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wasn't there something about Eugene being able to appear only to Roy because Roy was the eldest living child?

If I have understood the conversation correctly, the hypothetical being examined involves a scenario in which Roy, and every caster capable of casting sending, die in the battle for the last gate, but the rest are still successful at taking the gate, but Xykon still lives, and need to ask for the Mechane to come get them.

It's what I'd call a low-probability scenario, but they seem to be having fun.

Grey Wolf

[bunsen_h]

If I have understood the conversation correctly, the hypothetical being examined involves a scenario in which Roy, and every caster capable of casting sending, die in the battle for the last gate, but the rest are still successful at taking the gate, but Xykon still lives, and need to ask for the Mechane to come get them.

This was in reference to


Julia probably has a check in schedule. And if he dies in a TPK, the powers that be will probably let Eugene go down to Julia so he can tell her the Blood Oath is her responsibility now/gloat about fighter inadequacy and wizard supremacy.

If I'm remembering correctly, Eugene being able to visit Julia would be contingent on Roy dying -- nothing to do with needing permission from the powers that be.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well, he did work at getting them really pissed off at him since that was said, so he may be under house cloud arrest. I suppose they could let Roy go haunt Julia instead.

[Emanick]

Well, he did work at getting them really pissed off at him since that was said, so he may be under house cloud arrest. I suppose they could let Roy go haunt Julia instead.

Doesn't the Greenhilt sword have to be present for either Roy or Eugene to haunt somebody?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unknown. Eugene theorized so, but he also theorized the Blood Oath wouldn't follow him into the afterlife.

[Schroeswald]

I’ve always assumed part of Eugene’s manifestation is due to the Blood Oath, so he can guide his descendants to destroy the lich Xykon and whatever, but my personal theory is that the manifestation requires possession of something representing your familial connection, and the closest thing to that for Roy is the sword so Eugene needs that to appear, but Julia would be able to talk to him with some special thing he gave to her (something he definitely did).

[Lkctgo]

Love the callback to Belkar's "They only sell basic potions anyway" line.

The funniest thing is that with Julio's endorsement deal with Big potion, they have access to all the health potions they need!

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html

[Squire Doodad]

"5 score and 3 years from, long after the final page has been published, the readers of the Order would speak in hushed whispers of the great page drought of 1202. Some said that an error in the forums had brought about their end, others claimed that Rich is just a normal guy, maybe he doesn't want to do everything on a clockwork schedule; besides, maybe the page was just one he was taking a while on, you know? Eventually, page 1203 was published...but as for 1202, no one ever knew..."

[Precure]

Did I miss something? Where is the comic?

[bunsen_h]

Did I miss something? Where is the comic?

This page was posted at about the same time that comic #1201 was posted. This page's title appears to have been a typo; comic #1202 hasn't been posted yet, and there isn't a discussion page for comic #1201.

[littlebum2002]

If only there were a dragon moderator hanging around who could fix it.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't think the mods can alter a post by the Giant. He outranks them in the permissions.

[Peelee]

The world may never know.

[Lord Torath]

The world may never know.Are you sure those tags shouldn't be ? :smallamused:

[Peelee]

Are you sure those tags shouldn't be ? :smallamused:

Nah, everything I say is in tags by default.:smalltongue:

[jwhouk]

Some of us just get around it via renaming our title in our post.

Boy, is that going to look weird if/when this thread is ever fixed...

---

On topic: there is a slight flaw with Roy's plans - if he's killed, but they defeat Xykon.

[Fyraltari]

Some of us just get around it via renaming our title in our post.

Boy, is that going to look weird if/when this thread is ever fixed...

---

On topic: there is a slight flaw with Roy's plans - if he's killed, but they defeat Xykon.

Oh boy, if only they had someone who could cast Sending. An elven Cleric maybe. Or a dwarven Wizard. Something like that.

[Emanick]

Oh boy, if only they had someone who could cast Sending. An elven Cleric maybe. Or a dwarven Wizard. Something like that.

Sure, but if some combination of Elan, Haley, and/or Belkar (which is not crazy - they probably have the highest Reflex save bonuses) survive, there could be a real problem. Maybe Haley will wind up having a wand of Sending, or maybe Elan will level up and take Sending as a new spell (do bards get that?), but a scenario where the survivor(s) of a fierce climactic battle are stranded with no access to Sending or similar magic is definitely plausible (even if, narratively speaking, it’s highly unlikely).

Which is not to say that Roy is making a poor decision. Protecting the Mechane’s crew from possible assaults from Team Evil is noble, and it’s worth doing. It’s just not exactly risk-free.

[Fyraltari]

Sure, but if some combination of Elan, Haley, and/or Belkar (which is not crazy - they probably have the highest Reflex save bonuses) survive, there could be a real problem. Maybe Haley will wind up having a wand of Sending, or maybe Elan will level up and take Sending as a new spell (do bards get that?), but a scenario where the survivor(s) of a fierce climactic battle are stranded with no access to Sending or similar magic is definitely plausible (even if, narratively speaking, it’s highly unlikely).

Which is not to say that Roy is making a poor decision. Protecting the Mechane’s crew from possible assaults from Team Evil is noble, and it’s worth doing. It’s just not exactly risk-free.

https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/200x200/8/f/6457ae42e746da72328462dadcd9d7354076c1037dbd2f9aad 084421a826cd/Woah+deja+vu+_95016404ffd240afc1d8a7f7c771adb2.png ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic4.fjcdn.com%2Fcomments%2FWo ah%2Bdeja%2Bvu%2B_95016404ffd240afc1d8a7f7c771adb2 .png&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0&b_id=OIP.3-sajYZ78KCsm_fHeA-CWQAAAA

[Rogar Demonblud]

On topic: there is a slight flaw with Roy's plans - if he's killed, but they defeat Xykon.

Null hypothesis. Taking out Xykon ends the Blood Oath, and with it goes Julia's Contact Other Person spell. Roy's (non)survival is irrelevant to the problem, as it has no effect.

BTW, anyone else wondering if Julia meeting Bandana to arrange the pickup results in her taking up a career of airship wizard after graduation?

[Peelee]

BTW, anyone else wondering if Julia meeting Bandana to arrange the pickup results in her taking up a career of airship wizard after graduation?

I wasn't before, but now I am. I could totally see Julia enjoying the life of a sky pirate.

[Emanick]

Null hypothesis. Taking out Xykon ends the Blood Oath, and with it goes Julia's Contact Other Person spell. Roy's (non)survival is irrelevant to the problem, as it has no effect.

BTW, anyone else wondering if Julia meeting Bandana to arrange the pickup results in her taking up a career of airship wizard after graduation?

Alternately, the Order kills Xykon before Julia's project is due, rendering her research moot and making it impossible for her to graduate on time, so she swears a Blood Oath of Vengeance against Roy for tanking her GPA. Since he's her next of kin, that means she can once again use the spell to get in touch with him.


https://s1.qwant.com/thumbr/200x200/8/f/6457ae42e746da72328462dadcd9d7354076c1037dbd2f9aad 084421a826cd/Woah+deja+vu+_95016404ffd240afc1d8a7f7c771adb2.png ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic4.fjcdn.com%2Fcomments%2FWo ah%2Bdeja%2Bvu%2B_95016404ffd240afc1d8a7f7c771adb2 .png&q=0&b=1&p=0&a=0&b_id=OIP.3-sajYZ78KCsm_fHeA-CWQAAAA

Sorry, I don't get it. Was I repeating something that somebody else already said?

[Mox]

Sure, but if some combination of Elan, Haley, and/or Belkar (which is not crazy - they probably have the highest Reflex save bonuses) survive, there could be a real problem. Maybe Haley will wind up having a wand of Sending, or maybe Elan will level up and take Sending as a new spell (do bards get that?), but a scenario where the survivor(s) of a fierce climactic battle are stranded with no access to Sending or similar magic is definitely plausible (even if, narratively speaking, it’s highly unlikely).

Which is not to say that Roy is making a poor decision. Protecting the Mechane’s crew from possible assaults from Team Evil is noble, and it’s worth doing. It’s just not exactly risk-free.

New (false) theory :
Everyone exept Belkar dies in the fight; Belkar tries to return on foot (since he doesn't know about Roy backup plan) and dies in a snowstorm. The Mechane comes back, everyone is resurected exept Belkar since they can't find his body

[Mariele]

Thanks for the morning laugh, Mox. Love it. :smallbiggrin:

Kind of hoping the next update is a double. Seems like we're going to have a dramatic scene soon. Maybe a cutaway? I really want to check in on Team Evil or the paladins, but it seems like we're too close to confronting TE to cut in on them...

[Squire Doodad]

New (false) theory :
Everyone exept Belkar dies in the fight; Belkar tries to return on foot (since he doesn't know about Roy backup plan) and dies in a snowstorm. The Mechane comes back, everyone is resurected exept Belkar since they can't find his body

The darkest irony truly is Belkar only not being able to live because he went into a blizzard to fire a flare so everyone else could be saved.

[Lord Torath]

Assuming the OotS wins, but Roy, Durkon, Minra, and V die, and neither Haley nor Elan have the appropriate magic to contact Bandana, there will still be one cleric available who can cast Sending:

:redcloak:

If the Order of the Stick wins, that means they've beaten Xykon and recruited Redcloak to the cause of sealing the rifts. Anything less than this really doesn't count as a "win". And Redcloak is definitely capable of casting Sending.

So there's really no real cause for concern that the survivors will be stranded at the pole, and then have to move in with the bugbears.

[ebarde]

Belkar is onky gonna die in the "where are they now?" Segment of the last strip when there will be gray panels of everyone's faces with a white text saying what happened to them.

"Belkar would later on perish in an unrelated tavern fight"