Let's discuss Conjure Animals (and other spells where JC says DM picks)

[Segev]

For reference, the three I can recall off the top of my head that use this formulation are conjure animals (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/conjureAnimals.htm), conjure minor elementals (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/conjureMinorElementals.htm), and conjure woodland beings (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/conjureWoodlandBeings.htm). There might be more. For further reference, I'll copy conjure animals here from the SRD:

Conjure Animals
3rd-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:

One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower
Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower

Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends. The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don’t issue any commands to them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures, but otherwise take no actions. The GM has the creatures’ statistics.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using certain higher-level spell slots, you choose one of the summoning options above, and more creatures appear: twice as many with a 5th-level slot, three times as many with a 7th-level slot, and four times as many with a 9th-level slot.

Now, the one time I've seen this used in-game, my player used a Charm a creature had given his character as a reward, and I ran it the way I think it reads, where the summoner chooses what they get. He had his character summon 8 giant owls, which proceeded to grab monsters and haul them over a convenient pit of lava. I bring this up as an example of how a player might cast this with a specific plan in mind. In another thread, somebody pointed out that summoning giant badgers to burrow could dig pits perhaps more rules-compliantly than using mold earth to do the same, but that it would take a DM who ruled that players pick the summoned creature type.

For the purposes of this thread, I want to discuss how a DM should run this if you use the DM chooses interpretation. It isn't how I think the spell reads, but I don't want to discuss how the spell reads. I want to discuss the uses of the spell under the "DM chooses" interpretation. I don't even want to try to demonstrate that it's "bad." Rather, I want to discuss how players should expect to be able to use it under that interpretation, and how DMs should run it. (If I like the discussion's ideas enough, I might even try running it that way for a bit and see how my players and I like it.)

So, I brought up the two "player chooses" examples as ways that a player can come at this not with a necessarily "I'm going to cheese woodland beings into free polymorphs," but still with a plan that, it seems to me, requires player control over the creature types summoned.

Under the "DM chooses" model, should players be able to expect that expressed preferences for, say, "creatures that can burrow and leave behind tunnels" would be honored? Or should they not have that kind of control/influence?

How should the DM choose what does show up? Should the DM pause the game and search the monster manual for appropriate beasts or fey or elementals? Should he choose all the same type or should he try to mix them? Should he give any consideration to the situation? Should his goal be to give them a monkey's paw (i.e. something that is as useless as possible under the constraints given above) or a Miraculous Ladybug-style Lucky Charm? (i.e. something that he knows will ideally resolve things if they figure out how to use it)

Should characters casting these spells (and, by extention, players of said characters) have any ability to plan for HOW they will use the summoned creatures, beyond something as generic as "at least they will have some sort of attack?" Should they be able to count on any utility, or is this a spell that you never want to cast if you're counting on particular uses for your summons beyond generic "I hit them with an attack" combat?

Is that all this spell is meant for? Generic combat? Or is it meant to be useful for other things? If so, how? And what should the DM be using as his criteria for picking what shows up, beyond the CR? (And, again, should he be mixing and matching, or defaulting to all the same creature type?)

TL; DR: In a "DM chooses the creatures" game, what should a player be able to plan for in casting it, and what should a DM be thinking about when he picks the creatures other than "first thing of the appropriate CR & Type I find?"

[TigerT20]

Well, two things should be for certain:

- The DM should not choose creatures unsuited to the environment (a shark in the desert, a camel underwater)
- The DM should choose the maximum possible CR. If the player specifies two creatures and the DM selects two creatures that are CR 0... Not fun.

Other things will be more case-by-case. I'd allow specifics like 'fly speed' 'swim speed' etc, maybe more narrow requests depending on what it's for. If a player had an excellent plan that relied on having Giant Octopi, I'd give them the damn octopi.

One thing to keep in mind is that that can never be a rule for every scenario, so rules for 'always do this' should be as few and as open as possible or have conditions in which they may be ignored. I.E - the player is just exploiting a particular thing over and over and over again and the fey get fed up and want some variation.

[NorthernPhoenix]

From the DM perspective, the rule is there to give extra-special-even-in-5e DM authority for me to ban whatever i don't like. I'm generally not interested in choosing just because i can. but with these kinds of things it is important to be able to disallow things that can be particularly disruptive.

I don't think the DM should ever try to "gatcha" the player with huge birds in a tight corridor or water creatures in the desert or other passive aggressive "fun" options. You should give the player what they ask for, but only within the limits of what you think is appropriate. I could see demanding environmentally appropriate options as being reasonable, even if i wouldn't bother myself

[BurgerBeast]

If I was ever to use the “DM chooses” method, I think I would always provide a transparent list of possibilities and their respective probabilities before the player committed to the spell. That’s my general practice. If at all possible, I’d provide the lists in advance and let the player roll.

Even when choosing targets for an attack, I often tell the players the probabilities of who it will attack and roll it in the open just to determine the target. That way it doesn’t seem like I’m ruthlessly targeting single targets when it’s not appropriate. It’s also kind of fun to see how it plays out:

[Alucard89]

For me it's simple - I never treated it as JC says. Seems sketchy to me.

Summon spells should always be players choice, because part of why summons are fun/awesome is choosing right summon for right job. Any sort of RNG in spells is generally bad because slots are precious and also players should feel they control their magic. It's like casting fireball but DM has "statistics" and he choses if it's cone, sphere, cube etc. It wouldn't make sense. If player can't control his magic- we have Wild Magic for that to illustrate that. I can't imagine level 20 Archdruid using Conjure Animals and having no idea what is he gonna summon - this is stupid not only from mechanical but also from roleplay perspective in my opinion.

Besides even though I am not native speaker, I don't understand what "The GM has the creatures’ statistics" has to do with him chosing creature. In my book - players chooses creature and DM has statistics. That's all.

I don't understand why cut the fun out of this spell. The joy when player summons right creatures in right time or summons different ones to make different combos is what makes DnD great- the freedom and control over your spells/abilities etc.

JC ruling here takes that away and that imo goes against the spirit of DnD.

[Segev]

For me it's simple - I never treated it as JC says. Seems sketchy to me.

Summon spells should always be players choice, because part of why summons are fun/awesome is choosing right summon for right job. Any sort of RNG in spells is generally bad because slots are precious and also players should feel they control their magic. It's like casting fireball but DM has "statistics" and he choses if it's cone, sphere, cube etc. It wouldn't make sense. If player can't control his magic- we have Wild Magic for that to illustrate that. I can't imagine level 20 Archdruid using Conjure Animals and having no idea what is he gonna summon - this is stupid not only from mechanical but also from roleplay perspective in my opinion.

Besides even though I am not native speaker, I don't understand what "The GM has the creatures’ statistics" has to do with him chosing creature. In my book - players chooses creature and DM has statistics. That's all.

I don't understand why cut the fun out of this spell. The joy when player summons right creatures in right time or summons different ones to make different combos is what makes DnD great- the freedom and control over your spells/abilities etc.

JC ruling here takes that away and that imo goes against the spirit of DnD.

While I agree with you, I don't want to discuss the merits or flaws of the "DM chooses" interpretation vs. "player chooses," either in whether it makes the spell good or bad or in whether it follows the RAW. I'm interested, in this thread, in focusing on how a DM should actually make the choice of what creatures appear, and what a player's expectations should be when casting the spell, under the "DM chooses" interpreation.

Obviously, the player can expect a minimum number of creatures and a maximum CR of each of them. But is that all he should count on?

Put another way: what use cases should the player consider when deciding whether to cast the spell or not? Under what circumstances should he consider it worthwhile? How much of a plan for utility should he be able to have? Should the player have any thought in mind other than "these will have attacks they can use" when he casts the spell?

And, as a DM, how much deliberate help should the DM give in his choices? Should he let the player request things and give them if the DM doesn't think they "break" his scenario? Should he not let the player request, but listen to what the player is hoping for, and aim for something similar? Should he just pick whatever seems easy for him to find the stats of, or to deal with? Given the wording of the spell says "up to X CR," are there circumstances under which the DM should give less than the maximum CR, especially if the player gets no input?

And, again, should DMs mix and match creatures, or should they generally be sending all of the same kind of creature?

[Lupine]

JC ruling here takes that away and that imo goes against the spirit of DnD.

Definitely this. For me, JC's rulings are for his table, but at mine, I'm the DM. I'll consult his ruling if I don't have an opinion, but otherwise, I do not care about what he thinks it should be.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Definitely this. For me, JC's rulings are for his table, but at mine, I'm the DM. I'll consult his ruling if I don't have an opinion, but otherwise, I do not care about what he thinks it should be.

If you're the DM you should realize he's just trying to help you there. You should never feel compelled to let Conjure Animals or a similar power break the game if you don't want it to.

[Alucard89]

And, as a DM, how much deliberate help should the DM give in his choices? Should he let the player request things and give them if the DM doesn't think they "break" his scenario? Should he not let the player request, but listen to what the player is hoping for, and aim for something similar? Should he just pick whatever seems easy for him to find the stats of, or to deal with? Given the wording of the spell says "up to X CR," are there circumstances under which the DM should give less than the maximum CR, especially if the player gets no input?

If going by that scenario DM should just hear player request, open appriopriate page in book, hand it to player and say "here are statistics of creature/s you requested".

Also if we go into judging what "breaks" his scenario - then Tier 3 or 4 gameplay is pretty much impossible to run going by that. There are over 495 spells in 5e. Tons of them (not damage ones mind) can "break" any scenario because there is no way a DM can predict usage of all of them. So let's say DM wanted super climatic crawling to find a certain object. Bum, wizard cast Locate Object. So what? As DM you say "I don't allow it, somehow it doesn't work, say goodbye to your slot and your clever thinking"? Or you just go with it because that's how RPGs work?

I for example remember when once a DM threw us through portal into some unkown lands. He wanted to go with scenario of us needing to fight for food, finding water, sruviving.

He totally forgot about goodberries and Leomund's tiny hut. We "broke" his scenario with those, but thats the magic of "dnd magic" - there are tons of spells that can break stuff - it doesn't justify cutting them off or limiting them.

Just my opinion of course.


If you're the DM you should realize he's just trying to help you there. You should never feel compelled to let Conjure Animals or a similar power break the game if you don't want it to.

There are over 495 spells in game- good luck with tryharding with each of them to never break your game/scenario. It's part of being DM. We miscalculate and we have to adapt. In settings like DnD a simple divination spell can break your whole plan. I love conjure animals because if left in players hand - it gives awesome alternative to boring fireball, fireball, fireball. It can summon mounts, scouts or even just meat shields for traps in dungeon. Anything that makes game richer is good.

[jas61292]

TL; DR: In a "DM chooses the creatures" game, what should a player be able to plan for in casting it, and what should a DM be thinking about when he picks the creatures other than "first thing of the appropriate CR & Type I find?"

As a DM that actually highly supports the "DM chooses the creatures" ruling, I think that you should largely respect the intent of the player that is casting the spell. Now, when I say that, I don't mean the intent as in a player thinking "I intend to summon 8 Elk." Rather, what I mean is that you respect the purpose the person is casting the spell to serve. If they are casting it mid battle as a combat spell, you do not need to give them the 8 Elk they want, but you should give them something competent in combat. Whether that is Wolves or Panthers or whatever, it should be something that is at least decent at combat. Throwing Riding Horses at them instead is not cool, imo.

On the other hand, if they are using the spell out of combat with the idea of providing the party with some mounts for traveling, that riding horse is probably fine. Giving a Giant Vulture when a pair of CR1s is requested with the intent of flying is perfectly fine, even if the player had Giant Eagles in mind. Giving a Giant Octopus instead is a no-no.

That all being said, I am also one who believes that, for the most part, the creature summoned should be appropriate for the environment. Especially for Conjure Animals. Just as I wouldn't do an Octopus on land, I'm probably not inclined to do a Polar Bear in the tropics, or some Apes in the desert. I think at pretty much every level of a spell there are multiple appropriate creatures for any given purpose, and so I never feel pigeonholed into one specific thing.

This all being said, most of the above applies more to Conjure Animals than the other spells. This is both because I am far more familiar with that one and have had it in play far more often, and because I think the issues of purpose and environment are more relevant to it. I would generally follow similar rules for the others, but I don't think it would be as much work to pick something out. Their biggest issue is not having enough creatures to pick from. But, the only real rule I would have is that Pixies are just not happening.

[Segev]

As a DM that actually highly supports the "DM chooses the creatures" ruling, I think that you should largely respect the intent of the player that is casting the spell. Now, when I say that, I don't mean the intent as in a player thinking "I intend to summon 8 Elk." Rather, what I mean is that you respect the purpose the person is casting the spell to serve. If they are casting it mid battle as a combat spell, you do not need to give them the 8 Elk they want, but you should give them something competent in combat. Whether that is Wolves or Panthers or whatever, it should be something that is at least decent at combat. Throwing Riding Horses at them instead is not cool, imo.

On the other hand, if they are using the spell out of combat with the idea of providing the party with some mounts for traveling, that riding horse is probably fine. Giving a Giant Vulture when a pair of CR1s is requested with the intent of flying is perfectly fine, even if the player had Giant Eagles in mind. Giving a Giant Octopus instead is a no-no.

So, you'd give them the giant badgers or equivalent if they said, "I want something - like giant badgers - to dig pits that will stay dug out," I take it?

Would you have given my player Large flying animals when he spelled out his plan for conjure animals was to have them grab the enemy and fly them over the lava, or would you have just said, "nah, it's combat; something that will fight is all they get?" Would the fact they'd specified they wanted fliers make you more or less inclined to give fliers?


Oh, and because I am curious: would you ever give a mixed bag of creatures with one casting, or will you always give 8, 4, or 2 of the same creature? (Obviously, if they summon only 1, you only get one kind.)

[NaughtyTiger]

player did conjure woodland beings hoping for pixies...
this was the only time i mixed summons, 2 pixies and 6 sprites... she was okay with that
otherwise, for simplicity (cuz there are sooo many) i do all of the same

normally, i like asking the players what they want before we start playing. rather than conjure land specific, they can summon the fey in the form they are used to.
makes more sense to me that a forest druid would summon foresty animals regardless of where they are. cuz they are fey in the form of, not actually local beasts.

that said, i don't get a lot of summoners (thankfully)

[LudicSavant]

For me it's simple - I never treated it as JC says. Seems sketchy to me.

Summon spells should always be players choice, because part of why summons are fun/awesome is choosing right summon for right job. Any sort of RNG in spells is generally bad because slots are precious and also players should feel they control their magic. It's like casting fireball but DM has "statistics" and he choses if it's cone, sphere, cube etc. It wouldn't make sense. If player can't control his magic- we have Wild Magic for that to illustrate that. I can't imagine level 20 Archdruid using Conjure Animals and having no idea what is he gonna summon - this is stupid not only from mechanical but also from roleplay perspective in my opinion.

Besides even though I am not native speaker, I don't understand what "The GM has the creatures’ statistics" has to do with him chosing creature. In my book - players chooses creature and DM has statistics. That's all.

I don't understand why cut the fun out of this spell. The joy when player summons right creatures in right time or summons different ones to make different combos is what makes DnD great- the freedom and control over your spells/abilities etc.

JC ruling here takes that away and that imo goes against the spirit of DnD.

Perhaps it's just me, but the ruling kinda struck me as "You can't complain about the balance of our minion rules if the power of the spell is just DM fiat!"

It comes off to me like they couldn't figure out what they wanted to do to handle or balance minions. So we have like 15 different mechanics for minion control and most of them are terrible (e.g. Beastmaster, Conjure Animals, Animated Objects, Animate Dead, etc). It's like they just threw everything at the wall and asked DMs to clean up their mess.

[jas61292]

So, you'd give them the giant badgers or equivalent if they said, "I want something - like giant badgers - to dig pits that will stay dug out," I take it?

Sure. I don't know off the top of my head how many creatures would fit the bill there, but I would be happy to provide something like that.


Would you have given my player Large flying animals when he spelled out his plan for conjure animals was to have them grab the enemy and fly them over the lava, or would you have just said, "nah, it's combat; something that will fight is all they get?" Would the fact they'd specified they wanted fliers make you more or less inclined to give fliers?

Yeah, certainly. For the most I'm of the opinion that the the character should get something that generally fits the purpose of what they want, and that the character (not the player) should be acting under the assumption that they will get something that can at least generally fit their intent, but not necessarily the exact creature they have in mind. The goal of this is to avoid any sort of cheese that could in theory come from any one specific creature. A player trying to word their "intent" so as to try and eliminate all but one creature is not necessarily going to be satisfied, but something more general like "a big flying thing" is certainly not anything I would typically go against. Dropping creatures in lava is a valid strategy. You still need to win grapple checks and the like to do it, so it doesn't strike me as abuse or anything.

Now as I mentioned, I do prefer the creatures that are summoned to be appropriate for the environment, and so if there was absolutely no such creature that was also a big flying thing, I might instead give something that excels in pushing so they can at least approximate their strategy. But in all likelihood, if, for example, they asked for two CR 1s with that strategy in mind, and neither a Giant Vulture nor Giant Eagle seemed appropriate (perhaps because they are in a large underground cave), I'd probably just say its a Super Giant Bat or something, but have it use the Giant Eagle's stats, with minor adjustments.


Oh, and because I am curious: would you ever give a mixed bag of creatures with one casting, or will you always give 8, 4, or 2 of the same creature? (Obviously, if they summon only 1, you only get one kind.)

You know, its funny, I never really considered this. Nothing in the spell says you can't get a variety, but I never really thought much about it. While I think I would tend to stick to one kind creature, if only for convenience sake, I would have no issue choosing a mixed group if it seemed like it would make the group have more fun. I probably would not let a player ask for 8 creatures and try and specify a different purpose for each one, or anything like that. But if they asked for 2 creatures and with just some combat help in mind, I'd have no issue sending in a Lion alongside a Giant Hyena. I'm just not sure I'd ever remember that I could do something like that.

[elyktsorb]

I don't like this because I feel like this turns every summoning spell into a 'chore' for your DM. And I personally don't want to be casting something that gives the dm more characters to shuffle, which is why I'd prefer to pick the stuff myself, then I can prepare creatures that would be appropriate to the setting and to my character.

[Ashrym]

For reference, the three I can recall off the top of my head that use this formulation are conjure animals (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/conjureAnimals.htm), conjure minor elementals (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/conjureMinorElementals.htm), and conjure woodland beings (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/conjureWoodlandBeings.htm). There might be more. For further reference, I'll copy conjure animals here from the SRD:

Conjure Animals
3rd-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You summon fey spirits that take the form of beasts and appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:

One beast of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two beasts of challenge rating 1 or lower
Four beasts of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
Eight beasts of challenge rating 1/4 or lower

Each beast is also considered fey, and it disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends. The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don’t issue any commands to them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures, but otherwise take no actions. The GM has the creatures’ statistics.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using certain higher-level spell slots, you choose one of the summoning options above, and more creatures appear: twice as many with a 5th-level slot, three times as many with a 7th-level slot, and four times as many with a 9th-level slot.

Now, the one time I've seen this used in-game, my player used a Charm a creature had given his character as a reward, and I ran it the way I think it reads, where the summoner chooses what they get. He had his character summon 8 giant owls, which proceeded to grab monsters and haul them over a convenient pit of lava. I bring this up as an example of how a player might cast this with a specific plan in mind. In another thread, somebody pointed out that summoning giant badgers to burrow could dig pits perhaps more rules-compliantly than using mold earth to do the same, but that it would take a DM who ruled that players pick the summoned creature type.

For the purposes of this thread, I want to discuss how a DM should run this if you use the DM chooses interpretation. It isn't how I think the spell reads, but I don't want to discuss how the spell reads. I want to discuss the uses of the spell under the "DM chooses" interpretation. I don't even want to try to demonstrate that it's "bad." Rather, I want to discuss how players should expect to be able to use it under that interpretation, and how DMs should run it. (If I like the discussion's ideas enough, I might even try running it that way for a bit and see how my players and I like it.)

So, I brought up the two "player chooses" examples as ways that a player can come at this not with a necessarily "I'm going to cheese woodland beings into free polymorphs," but still with a plan that, it seems to me, requires player control over the creature types summoned.

Under the "DM chooses" model, should players be able to expect that expressed preferences for, say, "creatures that can burrow and leave behind tunnels" would be honored? Or should they not have that kind of control/influence?

How should the DM choose what does show up? Should the DM pause the game and search the monster manual for appropriate beasts or fey or elementals? Should he choose all the same type or should he try to mix them? Should he give any consideration to the situation? Should his goal be to give them a monkey's paw (i.e. something that is as useless as possible under the constraints given above) or a Miraculous Ladybug-style Lucky Charm? (i.e. something that he knows will ideally resolve things if they figure out how to use it)

Should characters casting these spells (and, by extention, players of said characters) have any ability to plan for HOW they will use the summoned creatures, beyond something as generic as "at least they will have some sort of attack?" Should they be able to count on any utility, or is this a spell that you never want to cast if you're counting on particular uses for your summons beyond generic "I hit them with an attack" combat?

Is that all this spell is meant for? Generic combat? Or is it meant to be useful for other things? If so, how? And what should the DM be using as his criteria for picking what shows up, beyond the CR? (And, again, should he be mixing and matching, or defaulting to all the same creature type?)

TL; DR: In a "DM chooses the creatures" game, what should a player be able to plan for in casting it, and what should a DM be thinking about when he picks the creatures other than "first thing of the appropriate CR & Type I find?"

I'm pretty sure the DM selection is there to give flavor and variety, and slightly manipulate the results for narrative/plot purposes if the DM chooses to do so.

The official ruling is the player makes the number/CR selection and the DM sekects the actual creature type. A DM can look at the monsters by CR lists or just make/find tables for it. Or just let the player pick and it won't hurt anything.