How would you rule climb speeds > land speeds?

[Segev]

In the rules for Climbing, Pathfinder specifies the following about creatures with Climb speeds:

A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower) and makes a single Climb check at a –5 penalty. Such a creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus to their attacks against it. It cannot, however, use the run action while climbing.

Without a Climb speed, you climb by default at 1/4 your land speed, and "accelerated climb" moves you up to 1/2 your land speed (with the same -5 penalty to your climb check). Obviously Climb speeds make you better at, but not automatically perfect at, climbing, but they will let you obviate the roll for a lot of surfaces (taking 10 with a str of 10 and no skill ranks lets you climb anything DC 18 or less without a roll).

Your Climb speed only seems to be referenced directly in the accelerated climb rules, though. Nowhere does it actually specify that you can move up to your climb speed instead of 1/4 your land speed when climbing (without using accelerated climb).

So, I suppose, first off: does this mean that a creature's climb speed is meaningless by itself, and is instead only useful as half the maximum accelerated climb speed it can go? Without accelerated climb, is a creature with a climb speed still limited to 1/4 land speed when climbing?

I would ask this in "ask a simple question," but googling around revealed a lot of confusion on the matter. If somebody knows of a place Pathfinder spells out that climb speeds are how fast you climb by default, or (possibly additionally) that land speeds cap climb speeds in general, I'd appreciate having it quoted and being pointed to the reference.


How I would guess it should be run, though, is that a climb speed overwrites the 1/4 land speed for "normal" climbing, and that if your climb speed exceeds your land speed for some reason (there are ways to achieve this), there's no point to "accelerated climbing" but you can move up to your full climb speed when climbing. The alternative I could see is that land speed always caps climb speed, which makes for some weird requirements to boost land speed before you boost climb speeds that are lacking for swim and fly speeds, but still are...understandable.



bonus question: If you are flying and want to land on and cling to a wall, do you have to make a climb check? (Reasons to do this might include an inability to hover and a desire to stay still.)

[Elkad]

Bonus question only.
I'd allow you to use the "no progress" Climb result.

[Segev]

Bonus question only.
I'd allow you to use the "no progress" Climb result.

So either an effective -4 to the DC or a +4 to the roll?

[Vander Nars]

No a creature is not limited to 1/4 his climb speed otherwise what would even be the point of a climb speed.

If you have a 30ft climb speed than you can move 30ft with a single move action, u can do the accelerate option to double that assuming your land speed x 2 is not lower than your climb speed x 2.

[Kurald Galain]

How I would guess it should be run, though, is that a climb speed overwrites the 1/4 land speed for "normal" climbing,
That is correct.

It makes sense to cap climb speed (and burrow speed) at your land speed, in the unlikely case that they're somehow higher. GM's call, really, since the rules don't spell out such obscure corner cases.


If you are flying and want to land on and cling to a wall, do you have to make a climb check?
Clinging in place doesn't require a check; you make a check only if you take damage.

[Elkad]

So either an effective -4 to the DC or a +4 to the roll?

Those are interchangeable, so "yes".
If you reduce the DC, perching in a dungeon corner (base DC:20 wall) would be DC:11. 4 for the "no progress, 5 for the corner. If you've got any ranks at all, you should be good.


Clinging in place doesn't require a check; you make a check only if you take damage.
You need to get a grip on the wall. The first check should be required. (The move action where you transition from flight to climb).

[Segev]

That is correct.

It makes sense to cap climb speed (and burrow speed) at your land speed, in the unlikely case that they're somehow higher. GM's call, really, since the rules don't spell out such obscure corner cases.


Clinging in place doesn't require a check; you make a check only if you take damage.Do you happen to have a rules reference for climb speed overriding the 1/4 land speed cap while climbing? It's implied, I agree, but I'm curious if they ever remembered to actually come out and SAY it. The accelerated climb rules don't count, because they reference double your climb speed, and taken by themselves just mean you move at 1/4 land speed when climbing unless using accelerated climb, in which case 2x climb speed overrides the 1/2 land speed.


Those are interchangeable, so "yes".
If you reduce the DC, perching in a dungeon corner (base DC:20 wall) would be DC:11. 4 for the "no progress, 5 for the corner. If you've got any ranks at all, you should be good.


You need to get a grip on the wall. The first check should be required. (The move action where you transition from flight to climb).

Seems reasonable.

[Powerdork]

Those are interchangeable, so "yes".

From a math perspective perhaps, but from a gamefeel perspective, one's about how talented the entity attempting the check is, while the other is about how hard the task is in the first place. (There might also be minor interactions with weird skill replacement things, looking at it with my designer's eye.)

[Elkad]

That is correct.

It makes sense to cap climb speed (and burrow speed) at your land speed, in the unlikely case that they're somehow higher. GM's call, really, since the rules don't spell out such obscure corner cases.


Clinging in place doesn't require a check; you make a check only if you take damage.


From a math perspective perhaps, but from a gamefeel perspective, one's about how talented the entity attempting the check is, while the other is about how hard the task is in the first place. (There might also be minor interactions with weird skill replacement things, looking at it with my designer's eye.)

True. So DC should be -4 to be consistent. Mathematically identical, but not the same.

[hamishspence]

If you have a 30ft climb speed than you can move 30ft with a single move action, u can do the accelerate option to double that assuming your land speed x 2 is not lower than your climb speed x 2.

As written, a creature with a climb speed, cannot move faster than its land speed, when using accelerated climbing:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/climb

Climb Speed: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower).

So, a creature with 30 ft speed and 30 ft climb speed (like a monkey) has no reason to use Accelerated Climbing at all.

Climbing faster than your Land Speed, as a full-round action, uses the Rapid Climbing rules:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#rapidClimbing

Rapid Climbing
A character can climb his or her speed as a move-equivalent action, or double his or her speed as a full-round action (requiring two Climb checks), but the character takes a -20 penalty on his or her check.




Though a case could be made that creatures with a natural climb speed may use a regular move action, twice per round, "hustling" - without suffering the Rapid Climbing penalties - with the penalties only applying to those whose Climbing is entirely skill-based, rather than natural.

[Segev]

As written, a creature with a climb speed, cannot move faster than its land speed, when using accelerated climbing:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/climb

Climb Speed: A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing. If a creature with a climb speed chooses an accelerated climb (see above), it moves at double its climb speed (or at its land speed, whichever is slower).

So, a creature with 30 ft speed and 30 ft climb speed (like a monkey) has no reason to use Accelerated Climbing at all.

Climbing faster than your Land Speed, as a full-round action, uses the Rapid Climbing rules:


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#rapidClimbing

Rapid Climbing
A character can climb his or her speed as a move-equivalent action, or double his or her speed as a full-round action (requiring two Climb checks), but the character takes a -20 penalty on his or her check.




Though a case could be made that creatures with a natural climb speed may use a regular move action, twice per round, "hustling" - without suffering the Rapid Climbing penalties - with the penalties only applying to those whose Climbing is entirely skill-based, rather than natural.

Part of my issue is that I can't actually find rules that say that a creature with a climb speed can move up to its climb speed when climbing. The accelerated climbing rules say they can move up to 2x that or their land speed, whichever is slower, but nothing I can find actually says they can move up to 1x their climb speed, which means there's technically no override for 1/4 land speed being the fastest you can climb.

I'm 90% positive the RAI is that you can move up to your climb speed and it overrides the 1/4 land speed thing, and 70% positive that it's also intended that land speed should cap climb speed. But I can't find rules saying so.

[hamishspence]

The 3.5 regular rules for creatures with a climb speed just say "the creature climbs at the listed speed when climbing" with no "as long as it's less than 1/4 of the creature's base land speed."

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#climb

Climb
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing.

Makes sense to say "this replaces the standard climbing limitations".



I'm 90% positive the RAI is that you can move up to your climb speed and it overrides the 1/4 land speed thing, and 70% positive that it's also intended that land speed should cap climb speed. But I can't find rules saying so.
Given that it's impossible to run while climbing, it's very hard to have a creature that's faster on a wall than on flat ground.

[Segev]

The 3.5 regular rules for creatures with a climb speed just say "the creature climbs at the listed speed when climbing" with no "as long as it's less than 1/4 of the creature's base land speed."

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#climb

Climb
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing.

Makes sense to say "this replaces the standard climbing limitations".

Right. But that text is notably missing in PF, unless I'm missing it somewhere. I agree it seems like what is intended. I just would like to know for sure, because PF has a number of times caught me off-guard with how they changed things from 3.5.

I don't think "accelerated climbing" was a thing in 3.5, either, and didn't have anything about climb speeds being doubled when doing it, but capped by land speeds.

And with how much Fly changed (it's a skill now, and maneuverabilities are just modifiers to it!), I'd prefer not to rely on assumptions.

I can, if that's all we've got. But I'd like to be sure.

[hamishspence]

I don't think "accelerated climbing" was a thing in 3.5, either, and didn't have anything about climb speeds being doubled when doing it, but capped by land speeds.

The full version:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#climb
Climb
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.

[Segev]

The full version:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#climb
Climb
A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.
I quoted that in my opening post.

Nowhere in there does it say anything about non-accelerated climbing being done at the climb speed.

Thanks for trying, though; I appreciate looking it up. I had just hoped that there was an actual rule about climb speed when not using accelerated climb that overroad the 1/4 land speed. And/or also established whether non-accelerated climb was capped by land speed. (I mean, if it's capped at 1/4 land speed without using accelerated climb, then obviously it's capped, but...eugh. Why have climb speed listed at half the only time its value matters?)

[hamishspence]

"Creatures with climb speeds move at their climb speed" might have been the sort of thing they thought was self-evident.


I quoted that in my opening post.

Your opening post was the Pathfinder version, and didn't have:

"The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing."

[Segev]

"Creatures with climb speeds move at their climb speed" might have been the sort of thing they thought was self-evident.



Your opening post was the Pathfinder version, and didn't have:

"The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing."

Dagfirnit, I was looking at your link and your quote and STILL thought you'd copied annd linked the PF version, too. My apologies.

This is asking about PF, not 3.5.

Yes, it probably should be self-evident, but there is nothing self-evident about climb speeds being capped by land speeds, and the rules also don't say they are. Only that accelerated climbing is. In fact, the 3.5 version ALSO doesn't say that its climb speed is capped by its land speed except when accelerated climbing, so in the weird and rare edge case where climb speed exceeds land speed, it actually is faster to climb than to accelerated climb.

It's weird they'd not just copy the 3.5 version over entirely, though. Why leave out the bit about moving at the given climb speed? It's more work to delete that line of text than to c/p the whole thing, so it makes one wonder what the purpose was. "I'm sure it's self-evident" doesn't stop them from writing out such things elsewhere. See the first sentence under "swim:"

Swim: (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/movement/) A creature with a swim speed can move through water at its indicated speed without making Swim checks. It gains a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform a special action or avoid a hazard. The creature can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered when swimming. Such a creature can use the run action while swimming, provided that it swims in a straight line.

[hamishspence]

Gibbons are probably the best candidate for "real creature that could plausibly have a climb speed higher than land speed" - because on the ground they tend to waddle, with their arms held high.

[Alcore]

I'm pretty sure you want a RAW answer for the question (which i can't provide by memory; though i would use climb speed value over 1/4 land speed.)

Bonus;
To end flying by hanging onto a vertical serface is DC 0 with a check only called if anything provides a increase in DC or their climb value fails to be greater than or equal to 0. (Or both)

I'm sure there is a RAW answer somewhere but if put on the spot that would be my ruling to keep the table moving.