What would a Barbarian -> Champion -> Paladin build look like?

[alexfitzrose]

I put the optimization tag on but really I just want to avoid mistakes using mechanics that my not work together (like raging and armor limits) while trying to work on some sort of crit-fishing build that matches a character concept too. *Looking at what comes next, I see that optimization is probably too much to ask*

So, my idea is for a Half-orc outlander type that will begin as a barbarian for a couple levels (I am looking for reckless attack specifically) before beginning a path down fighter for at least 3 levels (looking at champion for the improved crit range) and finally becoming a paladin (ancients, for smites on crits but also great flavor built around protecting nature).

Using a standard array and AL guidelines, how should my stats look to:

1) take advantage of the crit-fishing aspect of the build (so probably STR based)

2) work with a good AC using medium armor at most (and probably no shield to use greataxe so having decent DEX)

3) not be too frail to absorb the damage that will invariably come my way (maybe leave CON at 12, because I'll have healing and even the half-orc endurance too so I won't need a million HP if i can ...)

4) invest in my aura, which I hear ancients get the best one at 7, which may also be a ort of capstone for an AL(so no dumping CHA and even trying to pump it up?)

Oh my god, just looking at that makes me realize how MAD this would be and with no ASIs until 9th level... please send help... thanks.

[Esprit15]

I would say STR>CHA>CON>DEX>WIS>INT. Good armor can make up for weak DEX, but it’s a lot harder to make up for bad attack rolls and save DCs.

[Cikomyr2]

Well,

You are heavily Strenght dependant, for sure. You are required a cha of 13 minimum for the multiclass.

Obviously a dex in the 14 range and a recent CON is required, like all barbarians.

You'd get two Fighting style picks. Are you sure you wanna go Two Handed? You could make a solid Sword and Board tank type that protects his teammates. Plus, it's not like you will be overflow with an abundance of feats. You won't get one until at least level 10, so forget Great Weapon Master.

All in all, it's an intriguing, albeit not super original build.

Alternatively, go 2 Weapon Fighting with hatchets. Moar attacks is Moar crits.

[LudicSavant]

I put the optimization tag on but really I just want to avoid mistakes using mechanics that my not work together (like raging and armor limits) while trying to work on some sort of crit-fishing build that matches a character concept too. *Looking at what comes next, I see that optimization is probably too much to ask*

So, my idea is for a Half-orc outlander type that will begin as a barbarian for a couple levels (I am looking for reckless attack specifically) before beginning a path down fighter for at least 3 levels (looking at champion for the improved crit range) and finally becoming a paladin (ancients, for smites on crits but also great flavor built around protecting nature).

Using a standard array and AL guidelines, how should my stats look to:

1) take advantage of the crit-fishing aspect of the build (so probably STR based)

2) work with a good AC using medium armor at most (and probably no shield to use greataxe so having decent DEX)

3) not be too frail to absorb the damage that will invariably come my way (maybe leave CON at 12, because I'll have healing and even the half-orc endurance too so I won't need a million HP if i can ...)

4) invest in my aura, which I hear ancients get the best one at 7, which may also be a ort of capstone for an AL(so no dumping CHA and even trying to pump it up?)

Oh my god, just looking at that makes me realize how MAD this would be and with no ASIs until 9th level... please send help... thanks.

So you said you want to match a character concept, but I don't see any details of the fluff provided so I have nothing to go on there. Is there some conceptual reason for these Barbarian and Fighter levels watering down your Paladin?

[Sorinth]

Elven Accuracy is probably better for a crit fish build, though that means going Dex or Hexblade. Which means no Barb 2, but you are probably better off trying to get advantage some other way anyways, 2 levels just seems like a lot of investment for advantage. RP wise the outlander is more then enough to be a "barbarian".

The good old Paladin with a Hexblade dip gets you pretty much everything you want. You get a limted expanded crit range, smites that recharge on SR, Devil's Sight/Darkness combo to give you your advantage.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

You can consider starting with fighter or paladin for heavy armour proficiency.
The only thing you lose is fast movement.

[DarknessEternal]

It'd look really bad. Crit fishing is not actually an optimized way to generate damage.

[alexfitzrose]

So you said you want to match a character concept, but I don't see any details of the fluff provided so I have nothing to go on there. Is there some conceptual reason for these Barbarian and Fighter levels watering down your Paladin?

Good point, I see the arc of a character developing over time from rough and tough outdoorsman, half-orc shunned from civilized society so going at it alone, then learning more martial abilities and becoming more disciplined, before eventually finding what he wants to fight for in his oath. This is why I'm describing that order of levels in particular and trying to balance a realistic expectation of table time to gain those levels (and almost certainly capping out in early tier 3, which is why the aura of protection would be my 'capstone') and also why I'm not really considering having any levels in warlock.

Thinking about previous advice on character builds, I can hear calls to simplify- leave the 'barbarian' levels in my background/ roleplaying so no conflicts with rage, start champion right away so heavy armor can cover AC/ take DEX off the board somewhat, and rush to Ancients 7... what do you think?

[Sorinth]

Good point, I see the arc of a character developing over time from rough and tough outdoorsman, half-orc shunned from civilized society so going at it alone, then learning more martial abilities and becoming more disciplined, before eventually finding what he wants to fight for in his oath. This is why I'm describing that order of levels in particular and trying to balance a realistic expectation of table time to gain those levels (and almost certainly capping out in early tier 3, which is why the aura of protection would be my 'capstone') and also why I'm not really considering having any levels in warlock.

Thinking about previous advice on character builds, I can hear calls to simplify- leave the 'barbarian' levels in my background/ roleplaying so no conflicts with rage, start champion right away so heavy armor can cover AC/ take DEX off the board somewhat, and rush to Ancients 7... what do you think?

You don't need Barbarian levels to RP going from reckless to disciplined fighting, you can easily do that over the first 3 levels of Fighter. But to be perfectly honest you could just as easily just go straight Paladin and start the game off where you are already trying to reign in your rage and commit to the Ancients path and just RP times where you lose your cool and apologize for it/promise to do better, by level 3 you feel like you've gotten things under control enough for your sacred oath.

Just use a versatile weapon and flavour your reckless attacking style for when you use two-hands, possibly only after you take damage and lose your cool. RP slowly getting better at keeping your rage in check until
you fully commit to sword and board. If multi-classing you get a second fighting style that could be used for Protection or Defence which can highlight that fact.

With Barbarian you will always be going into Rage and using Reckless Attack just because mechanically it's good, so you'll never "learn" disicipline.

[LudicSavant]

Good point, I see the arc of a character developing over time from rough and tough outdoorsman, half-orc shunned from civilized society so going at it alone, then learning more martial abilities and becoming more disciplined, before eventually finding what he wants to fight for in his oath. This is why I'm describing that order of levels in particular and trying to balance a realistic expectation of table time to gain those levels (and almost certainly capping out in early tier 3, which is why the aura of protection would be my 'capstone') and also why I'm not really considering having any levels in warlock.

Thinking about previous advice on character builds, I can hear calls to simplify- leave the 'barbarian' levels in my background/ roleplaying so no conflicts with rage, start champion right away so heavy armor can cover AC/ take DEX off the board somewhat, and rush to Ancients 7... what do you think?

So the trouble with taking Fighter 3 or Barbarian 2 first is that it delays everything that a Paladin needs to function early. It's generally a bad idea to delay Extra Attack for a martial build, let alone all the other wonderful features that a Paladin gets. So if your concept can work with it, it might be a good idea to multiclass as little as possible before level 6-8. Sorinth has some useful suggestions on that front.

[alexfitzrose]

Thanks everyone for the input.

Just to reset to the original class progression (to say nothing of the character arc) isn't critting on 19 or 20 (10% chance) with advantage (2 rolls to get those num\mbers so 20%?) and then having 2 attacks (sure at level 10, but then it is 40% chance to crit?) pretty great odds to land one if the combat goes 2 or more rounds? (Please excuse my basic approach to math, I know there ways to calculate odds against various ACs and so on, but that's about as much as my brain can handle most of the time so that approach is more useful to me, but please let me know if I am gravely missing something in my estimate). Is that just way too long to play before really doing substantial damage AND not having an aura for my party?

Am I putting too many eggs in the crit basket? If GWM master is just a better overall approach to damage then should I just go straight battlemaster and figure out some other way to generate advantage and treat maneuvers on crits as "smites"?

[alexfitzrose]

You don't need Barbarian levels to RP going from reckless to disciplined fighting, you can easily do that over the first 3 levels of Fighter. But to be perfectly honest you could just as easily just go straight Paladin and start the game off where you are already trying to reign in your rage and commit to the Ancients path and just RP times where you lose your cool and apologize for it/promise to do better, by level 3 you feel like you've gotten things under control enough for your sacred oath.


So the trouble with taking Fighter 3 or Barbarian 2 first is that it delays everything that a Paladin needs to function early. It's generally a bad idea to delay Extra Attack for a martial build, let alone all the other wonderful features that a Paladin gets. So if your concept can work with it, it might be a good idea to multiclass as little as possible before level 6-8. Sorinth has some useful suggestions on that front.

OK, Im starting to get a better picture of it all, thanks again!

[LudicSavant]

Just to reset to the original class progression (to say nothing of the character arc) isn't critting on 19 or 20 (10% chance) with advantage (2 rolls to get those num\mbers so 20%?) and then having 2 attacks (sure at level 10, but then it is 40% chance to crit?) pretty great odds to land one if the combat goes 2 or more rounds? (Please excuse my basic approach to math, I know there ways to calculate odds against various ACs and so on, but that's about as much as my brain can handle most of the time so that approach is more useful to me, but please let me know if I am gravely missing something in my estimate). Is that just way too long to play before really doing substantial damage AND not having an aura for my party?

Use this:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?582779-Comprehensive-DPR-Calculator-(v2-0)

[Mr Adventurer]

You don't need a huge amount of Con as a Barbarian, armour will do the job for your AC plenty well. A breastplate is the equivalent of Con 18. The main limit is the cap on Dex, but if you're MAD you won't want to be investing in that past 14 anyway.

[Arkhios]

Champion doesn't really depend on any particular ability score, so the classes you have to worry about are Barbarian and Paladin.

Honestly, Barbarian is better off using medium armor until they reach 20th level, and that's out of the picture if multiclassing is on the table.

I'd say either:
str 15, dex 12, con 14, int 8, wis 8, cha 14
Or
str 15, dex 14, con 14, int 8, wis 8, cha 12
(depending on your race)
Are good places to start.

You'll want to bump dex at least to 14, so you won't fall too much behind in AC (dex 14 and heaviest medium armor means you're only 1 point behind plate AC, so, you'll be fine).

I'd say aim for 6 levels in Fighter, despite of the duplicate and non-stacking extra attack, as it gives you two ASI, Paladin 11 for improved divine smite and finally 3 levels in Barbarian. This is not in any particular order, however. You'll end up with 4 ASI, which isn't bad with a three-class mix. Racials should bump at least your strength by 1 or 2, and one of the 14's or 12 by 1 or 2, depending on your choice. A half-elf could get you a bit further, by being able to start with either:
str 16, dex 13, con 14, int 8, wis 8, cha 16
Or
str 16, dex 14, con 15, int 8, wis 8, cha 14

[bid]

Am I putting too many eggs in the crit basket? If GWM master is just a better overall approach to damage then should I just go straight battlemaster and figure out some other way to generate advantage and treat maneuvers on crits as "smites"?
BM damage is way more consistent and you control when extra damage happens. Precision can turn misses into hits and riposte boosts your DPR. You need to be barb 9 / fighter 3 before champion catches up.

Now, the difference is not as important as white room makes you believe because overkill variation has a bigger impact (doing 9 damage when your target only has 1 hp left).


As many have said, the DPR increase from extra attack beats most naive optimization. Get to level 5 of your main class before MC into something else.

If you go down the crit build, consider PAM or TWF to get 3 attacks and more chance for a crit smite.

[Jelkan]

I'd say aim for 6 levels in Fighter, despite of the duplicate and non-stacking extra attack, as it gives you two ASI, Paladin 11 for improved divine smite and finally 3 levels in Barbarian. This is not in any particular order, however. You'll end up with 4 ASI, which isn't bad with a three-class mix.

If you're aiming for extra ASI's, would it not be better to go for 4 Fighter, 4 barbarian, and 12 Paladin? I don't see any features other than the level 6 ASI he would gain from fighter(Since paladin would give Extra Attack), and spending those extra two levels to instead increase Barbarian to 4 and Paladin to 12 would result in an additional ASI.

[Arkhios]

If you're aiming for extra ASI's, would it not be better to go for 4 Fighter, 4 barbarian, and 12 Paladin? I don't see any features other than the level 6 ASI he would gain from fighter(Since paladin would give Extra Attack), and spending those extra two levels to instead increase Barbarian to 4 and Paladin to 12 would result in an additional ASI.

WTF was I thinking in the morning!? ....ahem, yes, of course, that would be the better course for a build! :smallredface:

[Damon_Tor]

Frankly the overinvestment in the paladin levels are a mistake. You would be better off taking Champion to 11, Paladin to 6 or 7 and Barbarian to 2 or 3. The extra attack from the fighter 11 is worth much more than the bigger smites you get from more paladin levels.

[Phoenix042]

I put the optimization tag on but really I just want to avoid mistakes using mechanics that my not work together (like raging and armor limits) while trying to work on some sort of crit-fishing build that matches a character concept too. *Looking at what comes next, I see that optimization is probably too much to ask*

Naw, this is a fun and effective build and we're gonna make it work. I can't believe all the people down there telling you to just change the character concept, or that you need a good story first that justifies the multiclassing. For me, sometimes I have a story first, sometimes I have a build and a weave a story that fits later. Both are good.

Lets take a look at our build precepts:



So, my idea is for a Half-orc outlander type that will begin as a barbarian for a couple levels (I am looking for reckless attack specifically)

This is an excellent start. Ignore the one guy telling you to get heavy armor proficiency, as you obviously can't make full use of rage while wearing heavy armor.



before beginning a path down fighter for at least 3 levels (looking at champion for the improved crit range)

Here's where the build will get a little messy. At first, this is gonna feel pretty nice (picking up second wind and a fighting style, then action surge is sweet), but by 5th level you're missing extra attack and getting... Some more crits. That can work, but it won't be very strong offensively without extra attack. And it looks like you're on a track to put off extra attack for another 5 levels yet. That's gonna hurt.



and finally becoming a paladin (ancients, for smites on crits but also great flavor built around protecting nature).

The problem so far is really that without extra attacks, you're not actually landing crits more often than you would be with just barbarian 5 instead of champion. The 19 - 20 range sounds good, but twice as many attacks means twice as many crits (it just ALSO means twice as many hits).



Using a standard array and AL guidelines, how should my stats look to:

1) take advantage of the crit-fishing aspect of the build (so probably STR based)

2) work with a good AC using medium armor at most (and probably no shield to use greataxe so having decent DEX)

3) not be too frail to absorb the damage that will invariably come my way (maybe leave CON at 12, because I'll have healing and even the half-orc endurance too so I won't need a million HP if i can ...)

4) invest in my aura, which I hear ancients get the best one at 7, which may also be a ort of capstone for an AL(so no dumping CHA and even trying to pump it up?)

Oh my god, just looking at that makes me realize how MAD this would be and with no ASIs until 9th level... please send help... thanks.

Yea so this is okay, we just need to optimize our racial modifiers and relax our score requirements a little.

First, we don't care as much about increasing strength (which would likely be our use of ASI for this build otherwise) because we're aiming for crits. Those don't care about our attack bonus (nat 19 will probably hit anyways) and they don't multiply flat damage from strength. So 16 is fine into the mid - high levels.

Second, don't dump con. 12 is too low. You can get a bunch of +2's and not worry about it. Here's a solid recommendation for point buy:

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 14

With racial modifiers, that gets us to:
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 14

So overall, pretty much everything we need is +2. I put the spare three points in wisdom, but you could instead do int or even put two into str (total 17) so you can take orcish fury later instead of a str increase, since the extra weapon die from orcish fury multiplies on crits, and its short rest. Overall a good feat for this build.


So next, lets talk about fighting style and equipment.

You get two fighting styles, and I think you should strongly consider switching away from greataxe. I know you like the idea of rolling that d12 three times, but the really important thing about this build is getting all those crits, which means the die you should be trying to roll the most is the d20.

That means duel dual wielding.

With the two weapon fighting style coming online at 3rd level and a pair of shortswords, handaxes, or the like, you're a melee powerhouse even without extra attack or crits, and then when you do land a crit, you can throw a smite on and the size of the weapon die won't matter as much compared to a fistful of extra d8's.

You've got to get that crit in the first place though, so you want more attacks, and two weapon fighting is the way to get that if you can't pick up extra attack or a feat before 5th level.

Plus, since you don't care as much about smite spells (we're saving slots for crits) and second wind is best used after a battle anyways, you don't actually have much competition for your bonus action except for rage, and that's once per fight max. Honestly way less, since you only get a few uses.


So to be clear, the proposed build would look like this at 7th level when all the important stuff came online for the first time:

Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 14
Barbarian 2 / Champion 3 / Paladin 2
Attacks: +6 to hit, roll with advantage, 1d6 + 3 on hit, crit on 19 - 20
Bonus action attack: As above.

So you'll be rolling four d20's most rounds, with a 34% chance to crit on any given turn, or you can action surge to throw two more d20's and up your overall chance to crit to almost 50%.

If you crit, twice per day you can throw 4d8 radiant damage (6d8 against undead) onto the attack, plus you'll be rolling 3d6 even if you aren't smiting.

Your armor class will likely be 16 since you've got a good enough dex to care about stealth disadvantage, but with half-plate you've got a 17 instead. You need those hit points though to survive when you attack recklessly.

Overall I think you'll find that you're a pretty effective striker but extra attack will make a huge difference when you get it at 10th level.

[bid]

That means duel wielding.
Dual.:smallbiggrin:

[LordKarnox]

To be perfectly honest, even though barb is my favorite class, go full Paladin. Trying to multiclass into three different classes optimally is very hard(you have to make a DC 25 skill check, ha ha.) If you insist however- Str, Cha, Con, Dex, Wis, Int sounds about right. I'd definatly go with armour-unarmoured defense doesn't seem worth it. Crit fishing plus reckless attack plus brutal critical sounds very good, and tanking with and after thats over you can heal with lay on hands, cast some spells, then rage and get back into the fight. I'd probably take oath of vengance or conquest, and for barbarian, totem bear is just too good to pass up in my opinion. So i'd go Barbarian 3, Fighter 3, Paladin 14.

[Arkhios]

To be perfectly honest, even though barb is my favorite class, go full Paladin. Trying to multiclass into three different classes optimally is very hard(you have to make a DC 25 skill check, ha ha.) If you insist however- Str, Cha, Con, Dex, Wis, Int sounds about right. I'd definatly go with armour-unarmoured defense doesn't seem worth it. Crit fishing plus reckless attack plus brutal critical sounds very good, and tanking with and after thats over you can heal with lay on hands, cast some spells, then rage and get back into the fight. I'd probably take oath of vengance or conquest, and for barbarian, totem bear is just too good to pass up in my opinion. So i'd go Barbarian 3, Fighter 3, Paladin 14.

This reminds me (funny that I didn't think of it before)...

My character, in a campaign that's currently on a hiatus, is essentially a mix of barbarian and paladin, although he has only paladin levels.

The approach I took was to combine a "barbaric" background with the class. In this case, my choice was Uthgardt Tribe Member from SCAG (although refluffed as Northern Tribe Member due to not playing in Forgotten Realms).

Not only that, though. I asked myself, what makes a barbarian, and the answer was both very simple and complex. Being a barbarian is not only a class but also a state of mind. State of mind can be portrayed beyond the boundaries of a class, and to be honest, differences between barbarians and any other classes become apparent only in combat, and that can be emulated by other means. It's certainly not a perfect solution, but for me, it works:

I took Dual Wielder as my first feat, and Tavern Brawler second, using a combat style that I, myself, feel is rather barbaric: using pretty much anything at hand as a weapon, or just unarmed strikes, but especially combining shield and a weapon for Dual Wielding purposes.

My DM was okay with it, and I had a lot of fun with it, but in time, I felt the Shield was only getting in the way and asked to replace Tavern Brawler with Resilient (Constitution), sticking solely on dual wielding weapons as big as possible. Casting a spell like Divine Favor and two-weapon fighting is pretty damn close to using rage, at least damage-wise. All in all, I feel that this divinely inspired fury that I try to depict is close enough to realizing a similar outcome as being a barbarian/paladin.

That said, I agree that fighter/barbarian/paladin is a very hard check to succeed in, and honestly, you'd be better of with, at the very least, dropping the fighter from the equation entirely, if you also want the ability to Rage.

[alexfitzrose]

Looking at the original elements of the build, why they are there, and then what actually is effective (trying to avoid optimization expectation) I would say that barbarian was there for Reckless attack and on Demand advantage, and almost nothing else (maybe a big hit die at the start?), champion for expanded crit range and fighting style, and finally paladin for smites (to make the most of crits) and also ancients oath at 7th level.

I'm going to take the advice and roleplay the flavor while using the best parts of the classes, which means no barb after all, take fighter to 11 for 3 attacks, and paladin 9 for oath and smiles for all those attacks (knowing full well this char may not got enough table time to get that far).

Last thing I'd want know is if anyone has a suggestion about how to get that sweet, sweet advantage in a reliable, hopefully resource-free, way that matches the new direction?

You all continue to be so helpful, thanks everyone for taking the time to write.