Why do golems HAVE to be a certain size?

[eyebreaker7]

The golem entries say:


Construction
“Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem’s market price minus the cost of the special materials required.”

“A clay golem’s body must be sculpted from a single block of clay weighing at least 1,000 pounds”

“A flesh golem is a ghoulish collection of stolen humanoid body parts, stitched together into a single composite form.”, “ It stands 8 feet tall and weighs almost 500 pounds.”

“An iron golem is 12 feet tall and weighs about 5,000 pounds.”,”An iron golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, ….”

“This golem has a humanoid body made from stone. A stone golem is 9 feet tall and weighs around 2,000 pounds.”, “A stone golem’s body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds.”


Why do they have to be a certain size? I'd like to make a dwarf-golem yet if you go strictly by the rules, which we almost always do, they can't be small or medium. Specifically a stone golem. Maybe even a greater stone golem.

"A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weighs around 32,000 pounds. It resembles a typical stone golem in all respects,"

Does it just follow the normal stereo type that "bigger is better/stronger"??? How can I "justify" making it just as powerful but smaller?

[Necroticplague]

The act of making a golem requires very specific steps. This includes enscribing runes and shaping in specific ways to manipulate the way arcane anergies flow through it. It's entirely possible that there's a form of 'critical mass' where, for magical symbolism reasons, you can't construct a golem of that type smaller, just like how there's a minimum size of nuclear bombs. For especially small golems, problems getting the runes in with the surface area might become a problem.

Now, it's possible for similar constructs to be made at smaller sizes, and even smaller golems. However, they would have to be crafted using different methods, just like how you can't simply make everything smaller on a robot and have it still work the same, because some things have hard minimums to be useful or exist.

So, the progression of golems presented by default is just an indication that, using this specific crafting method, these are the minimum sizes for it. Going bigger allows you to scale up easily, but you'd need a different method for smaller.

[Kayblis]

The golem HD represents its durability and general capability. The Greater Stone Golem's power and durability comes from the thousands and thousands of pounds of stone that compound it. The crafting system is not flexible enough to let you get one creature's stats and put in another.

If you really need a small golem though, you could find a way to make the gigantic Greater Stone Golem affected by a permanent Minute Form, to turn him Tiny or smaller.

[Goaty14]

If you really need a small golem though, you could find a way to make the gigantic Greater Stone Golem affected by a permanent Minute Form, to turn him Tiny or smaller.

-Minute Form has no mention of being able to be made permanent.
-Minute Form is a Wu Jen spell, with Range: Personal. Short of an exceedingly rare Wu Jen/Spellguard of Silverymoon (possible, but rare), you can't apply it to much of anything besides yourself.
-Golems are Magic-Immune unless stated otherwise. Possibly a psionic power could trump it, if your DM doesn't use transparency.

[eyebreaker7]

Wow, that makes total sense to me now. Didn't think about it that way. Thanks :)

[Thurbane]

The Paper Golem (Dragon 341) is small, and the Golem Swarm (Dragon 309) is composed of tiny beings.

[ShurikVch]

Golems 201 -- A Historical Reference (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010330a4) have some "downsized" golems for you - Medium-sized Clay Golem - The Watchers (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010601a), Flesh Golem - The Legion of the Dead (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010511a), and Gemstone Golem (Ruby) named "Ruby" (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010427a)

But for your specific request - stone dwarf - there we go:
http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/images/cov_gallery/92356.jpg

This stone statue depicts a dwarf warrior in heavy armor and a battleaxe, crouched in a defensive stance - at least until it suddenly shifts position, blocking your path.It's Battle Effigy - Medium size, 7 HD, and CR 6


EDIT:

The Paper Golem (Dragon 341) is small, and the Golem Swarm (Dragon 309) is composed of tiny beings.
Dragon #302 have Puzzle Golem; by itself, it's Large, but one Large Puzzle Golem able to split into two Medium Puzzle Golems, one Medium Puzzle Golem - into two Small Puzzle Golems, and one Small Puzzle Golem - into two Tiny-sized

[King of Nowhere]

The golem entries say:


Why do they have to be a certain size? I'd like to make a dwarf-golem yet if you go strictly by the rules, which we almost always do, they can't be small or medium. Specifically a stone golem. Maybe even a greater stone golem.

"A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weighs around 32,000 pounds. It resembles a typical stone golem in all respects,"

Does it just follow the normal stereo type that "bigger is better/stronger"??? How can I "justify" making it just as powerful but smaller?

can't you just call it a homebrew?

most monsters in the manual are made to be toyed with, and golems are among the most flexible category.

[eyebreaker7]

ooooohhh that looks good! Is there a source I can find it in? I did a google for "Battle Effigy" & "Stone Dwarf" and got all sorts of effigies but none that fit this one.

I am probably going to have to work with the DM and home brew something in specific.

[Thurbane]

Golems 201 -- A Historical Reference (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010330a4) have some "downsized" golems for you - Medium-sized Clay Golem - The Watchers (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010601a), Flesh Golem - The Legion of the Dead (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010511a), and Gemstone Golem (Ruby) named "Ruby" (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mm/mm20010427a)

I'd somehow missed those in my online monster list. Added. Thank you. :smallsmile:

[ShurikVch]

ooooohhh that looks good! Is there a source I can find it in?It's from the Champions of Valor (Forgotten Realms).

[daremetoidareyo]

Isn't there a gold golem in a web article that allows sized down options?

[Thurbane]

Isn't there a gold golem in a web article that allows sized down options?

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030901a

You can take away gold/mass from the golem after construction, which downsizes it...

[Tvtyrant]

Permanent Enlarge item on the statue that makes up the golem, it becomes immune to magic when it is made and shrinks down to a smaller then rules allowed size.

[eyebreaker7]

It's from the Champions of Valor (Forgotten Realms).

Dang. Don't have that one :smallfrown: Thanks anyway. Maybe I can pick one up cheap.

[Him]

I would have said yes, my example? (Though more more eberon warforged) Transformers, the movie (s) TM {Scrubbed}
Optimus is THE BOT (Though I did as a kid have a fondness for Rodimus from the 80's cartoon) but that "little" butler/ninja from the most recent one I believe kicked some serious butt too, for all his mental issue's. The are mini tranformers too, so it comes down(As always) to cost of materials, size modifiers and the such.

Options for creation, create an enlarge magic field (or item) for the materials, or shrink yourself down to size for enscribing the arrays.

[Psyren]

Why do they have to be a certain size? I'd like to make a dwarf-golem yet if you go strictly by the rules, which we almost always do, they can't be small or medium.

The rules can't account for every single monster variant under the sun that might possibly exist. If you want to make a custom Stone Golem that has a different size, your GM will have to stat that up and then say you can craft it.

[eyebreaker7]

I would have said yes, my example? (Though more more eberon warforged) Transformers, the movie (s) TM {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
Optimus is THE BOT (Though I did as a kid have a fondness for Rodimus from the 80's cartoon) but that "little" butler/ninja from the most recent one I believe kicked some serious butt too, for all his mental issue's. The are mini tranformers too, so it comes down(As always) to cost of materials, size modifiers and the such.

Options for creation, create an enlarge magic field (or item) for the materials, or shrink yourself down to size for enscribing the arrays.
Oh I like that idea. Shrink myself to engrave the runes. Nice. Thanks for the idea :)

[Buufreak]

Oh I like that idea. Shrink myself to engrave the runes. Nice. Thanks for the idea :)

As others have cited with the mechanics and circuitry references, the issue isn't that the crafter is too big to make the runes small enough. It's that certain things simply don't work if they are made too small. For a motor, it might not exert and generate enough force to move itself, much less anything it gets hooked up to. For the golem, it's that any rune smaller than those already prescribed in the carefully detailed and calculated formula that has been tested and retested thousands of times simply can't channel enough arcane energy to make the mass of stone/metal/flesh move.

[eyebreaker7]

Just looking now at the Golem Manuals and the spells required. One is Limited Wish.

Stone Golem Manual
The book contains geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, and slow. The reader may treat her caster level as three levels higher than normal for the purpose of crafting a stone golem. The book supplies 3,400 XP for the creation of a stone golem.

Strong abjuration and enchantment; CL 14th; Craft Construct, creator must be caster level 14th, antimagic field, geas/quest, symbol of stunning; Price 22,000 gp; Cost 2,500 gp + 3,600 XP; Weight 5 lb.


What do you think the Limited Wish covers in the creation? Would it be possible to add in a size adjustment? Or would size changing require a 2nd Limited Wish spell.
Or if that wont work I can always try shrinking MYSELF and making the runes so much smaller as Him suggested. Thanks again Him.

[eyebreaker7]

As others have cited with the mechanics and circuitry references, the issue isn't that the crafter is too big to make the runes small enough. It's that certain things simply don't work if they are made too small. For a motor, it might not exert and generate enough force to move itself, much less anything it gets hooked up to. For the golem, it's that any rune smaller than those already prescribed in the carefully detailed and calculated formula that has been tested and retested thousands of times simply can't channel enough arcane energy to make the mass of stone/metal/flesh move.

Damnit Buufreak. You sure know how to bring a guy down. lol. But yes, again, it makes sense :smallmad:

[unseenmage]

The Greater Humanoid Essence spell then use Minute Form.

Alternatively, make an Animated Object, Minor Servitor, or Shapesand Awakened Sand statue of the desired specifications instead. It won't be a Golem, as it wont have Magic Immunity, but it will be a Construct that looks like what you want it to look like.

[Karl Aegis]

You can always use the Effigy Creature template.

[Buufreak]

Or a homunculus, or any of the other several dozen existing constructs that are generally shapable. I understand, you seem generally new to the whole shebang, and in much media golem is a catch all term for walking thing made out of inorganic matter. But here it is a super specific creature archetype.

Might I suggest going to the monster index and looking up anything with construct typing and choose any who's name suits your fancy?

[Him]

As others have cited with the mechanics and circuitry references, the issue isn't that the crafter is too big to make the runes small enough. It's that certain things simply don't work if they are made too small. For a motor, it might not exert and generate enough force to move itself, much less anything it gets hooked up to. For the golem, it's that any rune smaller than those already prescribed in the carefully detailed and calculated formula that has been tested and retested thousands of times simply can't channel enough arcane energy to make the mass of stone/metal/flesh move.

Again, disagree. The spells are what they teach in schools, same with basically any thing out of the book, but epic you NEED to start to develops on your own.

You faults are right there in your disagreement, big encryption for big mass, once you start looking at the different forms and stuff, some are easy, some are hard, some are big or small already usually dependant on the material used. Extrapolated, nothing wrong with making a small golem. Apart from, well you know, combat effectiveness.

You engine example, for example, what if I applied a touch of (from 3rd ed, and in 5th according to google too) Oil of Slipperyness, yes i would, as i mentioned pay for materials to make a permenent version, but at least it would get started right?

Let's use clay golemd for an example.

Advancement : 12 to 18 hd large, 19 to 33 huge
Cost is listed as 40, 000.
Please explain why anyone would ever make the 12 he version unless the DM said, starts at 40,000 and scales from there.

So I say shrinking is in. Remember that the game is designed to be balanced so as long as what you are asking is reasonable, your GM gets the final say. It sorta hard to use logic based in the real world when involving magic.

Unless you are on some serious drugs. And drugs are bad okay? *Goes to the store and buys some hemp rope a whole flask of acid, and a bottle of wine....* what?

There was a guide called Mechonomicon that deals with alternate construct builds, start there.

[Necroticplague]

Again, disagree. The spells are what they teach in schools, same with basically any thing out of the book, but epic you NEED to start to develops on your own.

You faults are right there in your disagreement, big encryption for big mass, once you start looking at the different forms and stuff, some are easy, some are hard, some are big or small already usually dependant on the material used. Extrapolated, nothing wrong with making a small golem. Apart from, well you know, combat effectiveness.
I'm not sure why you say you disagree when you then follow up with agreement. Yes, it's entirely possible that there are ways to craft smaller golems that aren't the default way. They just wouldn't be constructed the same way as the default golems, because they're using different methods to be built.



You mayor example, for example, what if I applied a touch of (from 3rd ed, and in 5th according to google too) Oil of Slipperyness, yes i would, as i mentioned pay for materials to make a permenent version, but at least it would get started right?
???I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say here. The motor was simply an example of a part that might fail if miniaturized. It's not something that actually exists in DnD you can work around.

Or, to put it simply: even in big things, some parts of them are already as small as possible, so you can't scale down without changing proportions and drastically redesigning. Scaling up is typically easier because you can simply add more of those minimally small parts, and just make what can be scaled bigger. There's no reason to believe this engineering principle suddenly changes when you work in ointments and carving than with code and circuits.


Let's use clay golemd for an example.

Advancement : 12 to 18 hd large, 19 to 33 huge
Cost is listed as 40, 000.
Please explain why anyone would ever make the 12 he version unless the DM said, starts at 40,000 and scales from there.


Easy:

Note: The market price of an advanced golem (a golem with more Hit Dice than the typical golem described in each entry) is increased by 5,000 gp for each additional Hit Die, and increased by an additional 50,000 gp if the golem’s size increases. The XP cost for creating an advanced golem is equal to 1/25 the advanced golem’s market price minus the cost of the special materials required.
So, remember when I said bigger things needed more stuff? Yeah, that costs. A single extra HD is a ~13% increase in cost for 9% increase in bonuses to some things. That's an inefficient trade.

[Him]

I'm not sure why you say you disagree when you then follow up with agreement. Yes, it's entirely possible that there are ways to craft smaller golems that aren't the default way. They just wouldn't be constructed the same way as the default golems, because they're using different methods to be built.


???I'm not sure I know what you're trying to say here. The motor was simply an example of a part that might fail if miniaturized. It's not something that actually exists in DnD you can work around.

Or, to put it simply: even in big things, some parts of them are already as small as possible, so you can't scale down without changing proportions and drastically redesigning. Scaling up is typically easier because you can simply add more of those minimally small parts, and just make what can be scaled bigger. There's no reason to believe this engineering principle suddenly changes when you work in ointments and carving than with code and circuits.


Easy:

So, remember when I said bigger things needed more stuff? Yeah, that costs. A single extra HD is a ~13% increase in cost for 9% increase in bonuses to some things. That's an inefficient trade.

So we both arguing that smaller golems CAN be made.

Um, right. Okay then, been while since I played a golems crafting mage so sorry my bad, miscommunication. I would use shrink for this because I like my array's engraved on the inside of the golem. That's all.

As for your size argument for the motor, well that come down to quality of power source/materials. Inherently magical/mystical ingredients changes things. Your motor idea would use a normal oil that has a set viscosity, while Oil of Slipperyness would have a redicuously lower viscosity reducing traction.
The shouldn't even be an issue using the same quality steel, until it actually come to to a strength check, which could come down to plain old physical size modifiers, if the confrontation is physical. Like I said.

[Necroticplague]

As for your size argument for the motor, well that come down to quality of power source/materials. Inherently magical/mystical ingredients changes things. Your motor idea would use a normal oil that has a set viscosity, while Oil of Slipperyness would have a redicuously lower viscosity reducing traction.
The shouldn't even be an issue using the same quality steel, until it actually come to to a strength check, which could come down to plain old physical size modifiers, if the confrontation is physical. Like I said.
No, making things smaller is not always simply a matter of higher-quality materials. There are limits as to how small some things can go without drastic redesign. Those things go into making golems have their minimum sizes when designed in the default way.

And even if we accepted your premise as correct, is still doesn't contradict the point that I've been making, since one would have to redesign the golem to take advantage of these materials' properties, thus still being consistent with my point that while a smaller golem could be made only by redoing the golem-making process.

[Him]

No, making things smaller is not always simply a matter of higher-quality materials. There are limits as to how small some things can go without drastic redesign. Those things go into making golems have their minimum sizes when designed in the default way.

And even if we accepted your premise as correct, is still doesn't contradict the point that I've been making, since one would have to redesign the golem to take advantage of these materials' properties, thus still being consistent with my point that while a smaller golem could be made only by redoing the golem-making process.

{Scrubbed}

The largest hydro power plant in the world, is just an hand crank turbine on steroids.

Hence, it's just down to power source all the regulation, is to monitor the friction generated. {Scrubbed}.

[Buufreak]

Okay, that means that things can be sized up. Doesn't necessitate that it works in the other direction.

[Necroticplague]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

The largest hydro power plant in the world, is just an hand crank turbine on steroids.

Hence, it's just down to power source all the regulation, is to monitor the friction generated. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

And? We’re talking about miniaturization, not maximization. Scaling things up doesn’t have the same problems as scaling things down. Which nicely explains why the rules for scaling up golems are simple and straightforward (just use more stuff), while there aren’t ones for directly making smaller ones.

[Thurbane]

Won't somebody think of the catgirls! :smalleek:

[Necroticplague]

Won't somebody think of the catgirls! :smalleek:

Ask an engineering problem, get an engineering answer.

[Him]

And? We’re talking about miniaturization, not maximization. Scaling things up doesn’t have the same problems as scaling things down. Which nicely explains why the rules for scaling up golems are simple and straightforward (just use more stuff), while there aren’t ones for directly making smaller ones.
1. I actually have some experience with design and engineer principles. Please mention you own experience. (basically, my dad taught me)
2. This argument has sorta being already covered back in the 50's/60's
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanomotor
I guess was you are playing the part of Richard {Scrubbed} Please read. As for in bringing a new generation of thought, well you can deal with them as to me, I am trying help icebreaker 7 achieve his dreams of a dwarf sized golem. And people who who have studied this field of miniaturization for more than you or I have already proved you wrong and me right. I am under the impression that myself and eyebreaker7 were playing the roles of William as per the above mentioned example in this instance.

{Scrubbed}

3. As for the actual question, my answer was "well yeah, sorta, but size DOES matter", and even the cost of materials. Gonna use that special stone that's intrinsically tougher? Well, that'll cost ya." Just as powerful. Well, that's (as per MM table a strength value of -8 going from large to medium, -4 con, -3 natural armor class, but you do get +2 to dex,, +1 to attack bonus and a.c.) so, as per the DMG and enchanting items, additional enchantments can be added, most expesinvise first, in this cast an epic level +8 strength item(640k) and all addidtion item, including golem price, are doubled for the con and natural armor). So, probably looking at a cool million. (Which is a ironically how much they say it costs to raise a child "right" in the real world, best schools and all that jazz) But as a one off construction build, sure give it a go! It would be a touch more poweful due to increasd dex, attack bonud and ac even. But please remember that this would just be for the large sized golem 15-21 HD for stone, not the 12-18 the for clay as per mentioned in my example.
And just in case you are wondering, no, while you could get the golem to wear some magical items, things that involve what I consider a natural bonus, are made for living beings, you could give a golem a magic weapon, but the slams are already pretty good, maybe a custom made armor for a normal armor bonus, could even argue a ring of protection generates a forcefield type deal for deflection, though that might be stretching it as how would you actually pick up the ring the, and how would the ring identify the area to cover, better to enchant the golem with in- built deflection bonus to avoid all these arguments say it just works that way, okay?

But remember, I like my my arrays engraved on the inside, so shrinking would make it easier unless you have Dex through the roof and use special inscription materials to drive the special stone, blah blah blah. Well maybe you could use the original stone intended as the special stuff is covered by the additional cost.(And wouldn't changing building material totally be cheaper option in the future for builds other than the special stone golem?)

But as for drastic redesign, hell no. Everything i,'ve used to create this "Just as powerful" golem is straight out DMG, Epic level Handbook (for the cost of one item), and Monstrous Manual. No drastic redesign, as you understand that a golem just is a magical item (which is probably rule 1 of how to make a golem), and as per DMG, you can add additional enchants. Nothing to do with a "drastic redesign".

Your arguments on why it can't work I will simply counter with, " it's a game" sometimes a GM's job is to say "Yes!" But in a way that doesn't break the game, so "here is your bill, as per the rules"

P.S.also did you notice he sounded excited when I initially said yes, almost all like he is was playing a game and having fun.
P.P.S. if we were running this at a tabletop, as a GM I would appreciate where you the player was going, but would look at the cost and say, "No, but leave it with me." Later in a combat I would switch the treasure given and swap in a golem that couldn't be altered and would give the it a gp value including additional enhancement cost +2 dex item, +1 weapon bonus, and +1 deflection bonus (So for a stone golem, around a 110,000gp for the base 15 HD model). The above math is if you wanted to MAKE 1 yourself (Which the book says is CL 14), and as there advantages to being large (reach) somediumsomediumif is fine. If the player wants it as a one off, I would allow it. It wouldn't break the game, just soak up some gained treasure value for a bit for that character that "bought" it at the decreased value which the players would take a level and a half to balance outing character wealth, while again trying be fair, by asking out of character "well, *eyebreaker7's characters name* is sorta soaking up the gold value for this session, but as the GM I need to balance this a bit, so since, to make things balanced, I will alter then next characters levels worth of loot for you guys more until the character GP level averages out, then go back to the 'normal' allocation, "

And I would so give the players dirty looks if they tried using as a mount. So disrespectful. No, just no.

If someone ever wanted to make on of their own, I would say the one you found was just someone's experiment (I smell a plot device) or made for novelty or whatever, you would need to ask the maker. You want to make one or own your own, well it's a cool million gold pieces for the base model, with effective 10,000gp for per HD because you gotta pay double as per the DMG as the cost of the golem is considered secondary. And that is still brushing over quite a few of the paying mechanics.
EDIT: PROBABLY ACTUALLY around 950,000 for the base model, so you would have change from the million for the base model.


Won't somebody think of the catgirls! :smalleek:

Helena Kyle, Josie and the Pussycats, or were cats?

1st one, well you know what they say about they say about crazy girls.
2nd, well same sorta thing, but they do it a more fun loving way maybe
3rd I could go three ways on the this, either grab my shivered weapon, give them a safe area (maybe a nature reserve) {Scrubbed}. Or mention that I lprefer girls from Brazil, but i understand furries is a thing in england.
But Im digressing(with a touch of humor i hope) now. But I also mean what I say.


Wow, this took me 4 hours to write with all the correct info. Wow.

[Karl Aegis]

Won't somebody think of the catgirls! :smalleek:

It's a golem, specifically. I believe catgirls can't be involved if an alien spirit made of foreign matter is involved. Earth elementals are weird like that.

[Necroticplague]

1. I actually have some experience with design and engineer principles. Please mention you own experience. (basically, my dad taught me)
2. This argument has sorta being already covered back in the 50's/60's
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanomotor
1. What purpose would that serve? Without violating basic principles of anonymity, you have no reasons to trust any information I give on my credentials. Ideas can, and should stand on their own merit. I'm a computer engineer by education, but you have no way of confirming that.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Each size category is actually 8:1. Halving in all three directions is dividing mass by 8.


3. As for the actual question, my answer was "well yeah, sorta, but size DOES matter", and even the cost of materials. Gonna use that special stone that's intrinsically tougher? Well, that'll cost ya." Just as powerful. Well, that's (as per MM table a strength value of -8 going from large to medium, -4 con, -3 natural armor class, but you do get +2 to dex,, +1 to attack bonus and a.c.) so, as per the DMG and enchanting items, additional enchantments can be added, most expesinvise first, in this cast an epic level +8 strength item(640k) and all addidtion item, including golem price, are doubled for the con and natural armor). So, probably looking at a cool million. (Which is a ironically how much they say it costs to raise a child "right" in the real world, best schools and all that jazz) But as a one off construction build, sure give it a go! It would be a touch more poweful due to increasd dex, attack bonud and ac even. But please remember that this would just be for the large sized golem 15-21 HD for stone, not the 12-18 the for clay as per mentioned in my example. What makes you think you can build items into a golem like that? A golem is a creature, not a magic item. At this point, as far as I can see, you're just homebrewing a creature into existence, and then filling up the gaps with normal crafting, while ignoring that the you have no justification for the former action.


But remember, I like my my arrays engraved on the inside, so shrinking would make it easier unless you have Dex through the roof and use special inscription materials to drive the special stone, blah blah blah. Well maybe you could use the original stone intended as the special stuff is covered by the additional cost.(And wouldn't changing building material totally be cheaper option in the future for builds other than the special stone golem?) Again, why do you assume such things are possible? What makes you think you can engrave the runes on the inside, instead of its surface? Why do you think you even can make it out of a different kind of stone, instead of what it normally uses being integral to its design?


But as for drastic redesign, hell no. Everything i,'ve used to create this "Just as powerful" golem is straight out DMG, Epic level Handbook (for the cost of one item), and Monstrous Manual. No drastic redesign, as you understand that a golem just is a magical item (which is probably rule 1 of how to make a golem), and as per DMG, you can add additional enchants. Nothing to do with a "drastic redesign". Except for the part where the golem is Medium in the first place, which is in blatant violation of the golem's entry. You're homebrewing part into existence (that you can make it at a smaller size and just apply the penalties/bonuses on the size table without other changes), and then using questionable interpretations of the mechanics to cover of the weaknesses of that. Also, no, a golem is not a magic item. It is a creature. You can no more enchant it with additional bonuses than you can say a monk has masterwork fists.

Also, while you say it wasn't a drastic redesign, assuming that what you just did was valid, it most certainly seems like something that would require quite a bit of change in design in-character, which would go well onto explaining why the damned thing is so expensive for its size. Less mundane materials, but a hell of a lot more magic ones worked in there.

[Him]

1. What purpose would that serve? Without violating basic principles of anonymity, you have no reasons to trust any information I give on my credentials. Ideas can, and should stand on their own merit. I'm a computer engineer by education, but you have no way of confirming that.

Each size category is actually 8:1. Halving in all three directions is dividing mass by 8.

What makes you think you can build items into a golem like that? A golem is a creature, not a magic item. At this point, as far as I can see, you're just homebrewing a creature into existence, and then filling up the gaps with normal crafting, while ignoring that the you have no justification for the former action.

Again, why do you assume such things are possible? What makes you think you can engrave the runes on the inside, instead of its surface? Why do you think you even can make it out of a different kind of stone, instead of what it normally uses being integral to its design?

Except for the part where the golem is Medium in the first place, which is in blatant violation of the golem's entry. You're homebrewing part into existence (that you can make it at a smaller size and just apply the penalties/bonuses on the size table without other changes), and then using questionable interpretations of the mechanics to cover of the weaknesses of that. Also, no, a golem is not a magic item. It is a creature. You can no more enchant it with additional bonuses than you can say a monk has masterwork fists.

Also, while you say it wasn't a drastic redesign, assuming that what you just did was valid, it most certainly seems like something that would require quite a bit of change in design in-character, which would go well onto explaining why the damned thing is so expensive for its size. Less mundane materials, but a hell of a lot more magic ones worked in there.

Grats on the computer thing, I quit being one of those almost 20 years ago.

{Scrubbed}

Magic Item with basic programming, look at the things intelligence :n/a a golem neither eats, nor grows and h as no survival instinct., not living. Not a creature with a b as if survival instinct. Just a thing. Basic programming so when you give it an order it can follow, but no more. I forget exactly where I read it, but it's a magical construction feat requiring 2 other magical construction feats to take. And golems are just magical items. And not high grade ones at that as some other m agical items actually HAVE sentience

I don't think it home brewed at all {Scrubbed}

{Scrubbed}

And I think your 8:1 thing is wrong too, maybe 4:1 if the square/cube crule is used. {Scrubbed}

[ixrisor]

Grats on the computer thing, I quit being one of those almost 20 years ago.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Magic Item with basic programming, look at the things intelligence :n/a a golem neither eats, nor grows and h as no survival instinct., not living. Not a creature with a b as if survival instinct. Just a thing. Basic programming so when you give it an order it can follow, but no more. I forget exactly where I read it, but it's a magical construction feat requiring 2 other magical construction feats to take. And golems are just magical items. And not high grade ones at that as some other m agical items actually HAVE sentience

I don't think it home brewed at all {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

And I think your 8:1 thing is wrong too, maybe 4:1 if the square/cube crule is used. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

In reverse order: let’s represent our golem as a cuboid, 2x4x2. It therefore has a volume of 16. If we halve its measurements, 1x2x1, it has a volume of 2. Halving the measurements divides the volume by 8, exactly as the person you replied to said.

Ad hominem

It is homebrewed, as there are no rules in any books (as far as I know) for making golems smaller than usual. More ad hominem.

Per the text of the craft construct feat, a construct is similar to a magic item (ie. not the same), unlike an intelligent item, which is both an item and a construct, though primarily an item,

It’s a golem, not a robot. There are no motors involved. Your article backs up his point: a nanomotor is not made in the same way as a normal motor, and would thus not use the same pricing as a normal motor.

No one is raining **** on you, only disagreeing with you. If many people disagree, perhaps you should reconsider your position.

[Him]

No wait there are the references right in front of the monstrous manual. "The animating force of a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane Of Earth"

So, not a creature it self, just possessed by an enslaved earth spirit, bound to obey unthinkingly.

"Creating a golem is essentially similar to creating any kind of magical item"

The difference would be the earth elemental spirit.

{Scrubbed}

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread reviewed and re-opened. Standard disclaimer that disagreeing is okay, being disagreeable is not.

[Necroticplague]

Magic Item with basic programming, look at the things intelligence :n/a a golem neither eats, nor grows and h as no survival instinct., not living. Not a creature with a b as if survival instinct. Just a thing. Basic programming so when you give it an order it can follow, but no more.
Many mindless undead share all of these traits. These, along with golems, are still creatures, not objects. They're not alive, but that doesn't make them not creatures.

Unlike a great many words, what is a creature and what is an object is not a fuzzy vaguary:

Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.
Golems, having both, are creatures.
Just to hammer home that being alive is not required, let's similarly look at the definition of 'creature'

A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.
So they fact they're 'otherwise active' makes them not objects.


I forget exactly where I read it, but it's a magical construction feat requiring 2 other magical construction feats to take. Correct: Craft Construct, the feat used to make golems entirely under your own power (read: ignoring Golem Manuals), requires Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item.


I don't think it home brewed at all {Scrubbed}
Cool. If it's not homebrew, you should be able to show me where the rules allow for a smaller golem, no problem then?


And golems are just magical items. And not high grade ones at that as some other magical items actually HAVE sentience.
That seems like a rather strong claim. Any source to back that up? Your tangent about being animated by a bound earth elemental is a non-sequitor on that matter. Yes, making them is similar to making an object, but that does not mean they are one.