how are you supposed to defend yourself without a box?

[newguydude1]

i make a box out of bronzewood using psionic minor creation and stay inside 24/7.
i have my minions carry me around in the box like quori or astral construct.

i like the box because it saves me from
archers
spellcasters
fear auras
aoe spells
targetting spells
melee attacks

everything. spellcasters and fear auras have no line of effect or sight to me because of the box. archers, melee attackers, and fireballs have no line of effect or sight to me so im immune to them until they destroy my box. so all my psions have been encased in boxes in every game.

my psion has his psicrystal bar and unbar a 1x1ft flap whenever i need to summon something and i use my move action to open the flap and drop it shut.

but now, i found out i can get some stuff i like 1 or 2 levels earlier if i dont use the box. by going something other than shaper. but i have no idea what to do without a box. too many times my wizard died to a fireball while invisible. too many times my wizard ran away because of a fiend fear aura and killed me with attacks of opportunity. too many times ive been focus fired from archers with my wizard ac and die.

so how are you supposed to defend yourself without a box?

edit: this is for level 3-8. at 9 i can grab major creation and get my box.

[Tvtyrant]

Talking to your DM about toning down the arms race goes the furthest.

Within the rules: Intiative of the Sevenfold Veil + Craft Contingency as a Wizard, or Wings of Cover as a Sorcerer are both quite effective. There is also the option to get massive armor bonuses by becoming a Gish and getting AC bonuses from your armor buffing spells using Abjurant Champion. There is also a spell called Scintillating Scales which lets you turn your armor into touch AC, which makes touch attacks much less effective.

[newguydude1]

Talking to your DM about toning down the arms race goes the furthest.

Within the rules: Intiative of the Sevenfold Veil + Craft Contingency as a Wizard, or Wings of Cover as a Sorcerer are both quite effective. There is also the option to get massive armor bonuses by becoming a Gish and getting AC bonuses from your armor buffing spells using Abjurant Champion. There is also a spell called Scintillating Scales which lets you turn your armor into touch AC, which makes touch attacks much less effective.

this is for levels 3-8. at 9 i can grab major creation and get my box.

[Falontani]

use craft to create your own box using your gold instead of power points. the box isn't temporary, but its also harder to replace/repair. You might be able to use Psionic Hardening on your box to make your box last longer, and hopefully until you can make your box using power points. If you don't have craft use Psionic Unseen Crafter.

[newguydude1]

use craft to create your own box using your gold instead of power points. the box isn't temporary, but its also harder to replace/repair. You might be able to use Psionic Hardening on your box to make your box last longer, and hopefully until you can make your box using power points. If you don't have craft use Psionic Unseen Crafter.

omg how did i not see the most obvious solution. ty

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Try a ball instead of a box.

[Buufreak]

Try a ball instead of a box.

Truly the most foolish answer, as a ball, which I'd assume spherical, would have far more surface area per volume than the box!

Edit: its 3am and I have this completely backwards. Spheres have the absolute least surface area per volume possible. MAKE THE BOX A SPHERE!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Truly the most foolish answer, as a ball, which I'd assume spherical, would have far more surface area per volume than the box!At least with a ball you could roll it on your own, rather than relying on minions.

Plus, you could eventually metamorphosis into a giant space hamster, gerbil, or chinchilla! Just think of the possibilities!

Also, you have that backwards.

[edit]


Edit: its 3am and I have this completely backwards. Spheres have the absolute least surface area per volume possible. MAKE THE BOX A SPHERE!
Ninja edit!

[newguydude1]

Try a ball instead of a box.

no. i dont want enemies to roll me down a cliff and to my death.

its a box to maximize friction, and theres empty space i can fill with even more bronzewood to make my box so heavy it cant be moved.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

no. i dont want enemies to roll me down a cliff and to my death.

its a box to maximize friction, and theres empty space i can fill with even more bronzewood to make my box so heavy it cant be moved.A properly utilized control object on a properly sized ball could give you a flying weapons platform.

[edit] Plus spiky bits on the outside to dissuade anyone from manhandling you. Spikes also give traction and give control object attacks a bit more oomph.

[Quentinas]

In the normal way that is used without using a box? Magic equipment to boost saves, items to teleport, items to gain AC and so on? The normal way that each adventurer do? Using a box is way to denies many thing ...but for example fireball if it explodes on the box would strike you , or at least i would say this... And question how can you have line of sight to attack or will you let all the minions do the work? And at least i don't think an astral construct last enough to move a box 24h

[newguydude1]

And question how can you have line of sight to attack or will you let all the minions do the work? And at least i don't think an astral construct last enough to move a box 24h

project quori spirit is duration:concentration
i have power point regeneration. i regenerate average 1.5pp a round. astral constructs last 1round per pp.
yes i am making minions do all of the work. i am a creator of monsters not a fighter or blaster.

fireball is fire damage. objects only receive half. bronzewood has 10 hardness. fireball does nothing.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A collar of perpetual attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) is only 2,000 gp, and a Small darkwood tower shield for the unseen servant to carry for you is a mere, what, 180 gp or so? Have it interpose itself right next to you and ready the shield for cover each round. If you can add multiple collars' abilities to the one you're wearing (as per the rules in the MIC for combining magic items -- in this case, multiple copies of the same item effect), you can have a mobile wall in discrete 5' chunks.

[newguydude1]

A collar of perpetual attendance (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c) is only 2,000 gp, and a Small darkwood tower shield for the unseen servant to carry for you is a mere, what, 180 gp or so? Have it interpose itself right next to you and ready the shield for cover each round. If you can add multiple collars' abilities to the one you're wearing (as per the rules in the MIC for combining magic items -- in this case, multiple copies of the same item effect), you can have a mobile wall in discrete 5' chunks.

i plan on doing what falontani suggested and use a geodite to carve out a good chunk of stone into a box with a crude door. the thickness is as thick as i can make it without my quoris needing to drag me around. for example max carryweight of two quoris who have climb speed is enough to get me through any terrain.

and once i get my major creation ill make it so thick that i have to be dragged around and ill just teleport and remake the box if there is super hard terrain to bypass.

i think thats better than what you suggested.

tower shields is what i am using to calculate my box weight and hp. one of the books have rules for a steel tower shield, bronzewood can make steel shields at a lighter weight, tower shields have an hp given, using that i can determine thickness, and other stuff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

i plan on doing what falontani suggested and use a geodite to carve out a good chunk of stone into a box with a crude door. the thickness is as thick as i can make it without my quoris needing to drag me around. for example max carryweight of two quoris who have climb speed is enough to get me through any terrain.

and once i get my major creation ill make it so thick that i have to be dragged around and ill just teleport and remake the box if there is super hard terrain to bypass.

i think thats better than what you suggested.

tower shields is what i am using to calculate my box weight and hp. one of the books have rules for a steel tower shield, bronzewood can make steel shields at a lighter weight, tower shields have an hp given, using that i can determine thickness, and other stuff.You may want to keep the idea in mind for later, though. Remember, your box doesn't protect party members, and after the initial expenditure (aside from, perhaps, buying more shields that occasionally get destroyed, although they're cheap enough), you can give the entire party (and more!) cover with a standard action.

[edit] And remember, if you make them 5'x5' with slots in them for casting out of, the shields can be used to make boxes of any configuration, including 5'x5'x5', as well as tunnels and rooms and stuff, even laying them on the ground to protect against burrowers. Add ghost touch to them to prevent incorporeals.

[Jopustopin]

I really can't think of anything outside of the box that would help you survive.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I really can't think of anything outside of the box that would help you survive.I dunno, I'm having a ball with it.

[RSGA]

Just be careful about any AoEs, especially the nastier kinds of battlefield ones. Triply so if you go and make slots and such, because then you will probably start taking the troubles that they bring real fast. Especially when somebody targets a blast or two at the lead unseen servant since the cover provided by tower shields explicitly allows for hitting by targeting the shield.

Also you probably want something else to carry those shields, because even darkwood gives you a tower shield that reduces the servants to staggering around at five feet per full round action. Still, probably not the worst way of spending 2000 GP (400 GP a shield) if there's not spreads in play or cylinders that have the potential to or will go around a shield's total cover.

Oh and if you're doing bronzewood in particular, beware of Warp Wood. That makes you even more vulnerable than the slits do.

[newguydude1]

In the normal way that is used without using a box? Magic equipment to boost saves, items to teleport, items to gain AC and so on?

yes.

how do you handle 3-4 archers equal level to your wizard shooting your wizard instead of the fighter or cleric?
how do you handle a wizard equal level to you throwing a fireball at you?
how do you handle a big devil with fear aura greater teleporting right next to you and then attacking only you instead of your other party members?

my way is have the box protect me. what is your way?


Oh and if you're doing bronzewood in particular, beware of Warp Wood. That makes you even more vulnerable than the slits do.

very good tip!

[Quentinas]

For example greater magic armor+ shield to gain a good bonus to AC , or protection from arrows, or invisibility or alter self for example to have even a better AC
A fireball generally is launched against many party member but i can use dispel magic / false life/ item that boost my saves / protection from energy or use an amulet of tears for example
From melee attacks an item i like is the shadow cloak from drow of the underdark, is a very good way to avoid complete attacks, and then i can use my spells to block the demon and against the fear aura there are spells like heroism or other items. Remember that theorically is a game played by a party so while your solution is based for you is not collaborative , and even thinking that each attack will go at you when there are other 3 party members (and assuming the typical composition 1 cleric that can be a problem like a wizard) that could be targeted. The solutions exists because not each one can create a box and let the minion do all work , so mainly my way to have a solution for the problems is using a magic item, or collaborate , there are spells and powers quite strong so the box solution work only if you play each time the same typology of character , is a solution? Yes it is, is a good solution, but if i would be a party member or the DM i wouldn't like it

[Crake]

Can I ask why enemies never readied spells or actions for when the flap in your box was open to actually manage to attack you? Seems like a pretty obvious flaw in your box setup.

[Aotrs Commander]

As no-one seems to have rbouight this up, I feel it must be said, to cover all bases:

If this is not a theorhetical exercise or if you and your DM have not mutally agreed that you (and your group) are all very much (like 110%) okay with this... state of affairs previously, then you are your DM are long ovedue for a sit-down and long, out-of-character conversation.

[Segev]

The spell wind wall is usually how I see wizards handling archers from levels 3-8.

Resist energy (fire) can protect from fireballs.

It takes some prep, but fire is usually the highest damage energy type you’ll face at those levels unless you’re going into particular and usually predictable situations where another energy would be more prevalent.

Mage armor + shield is also generally enough to keep a wizard AC competitive.

Blur and displacement also work well against attacks. As does mirror image.

And if you just need hit points, false life isn’t great, but helps. An average of 8.5 extra hp at level 3 up to 13.5 extra at level 8.

And, if your DM is focus firing you because he claims you’re the obvious threat, use disguise self to look like just another minion.

Frankly, I’m surprised your DM hasn’t decided that bronzewood, being wood, is flammable and catches fire when exposed to a fireball, roasting you alive inside the box. Does he like you playing this way?

I mean, on one character, it’s a big but potentially amusing and interesting quirk. As a strategy that every character uses, I would think it would get tiresome, and the fact the DM enables it but shuts down more normal ways of play is odd, to me.

[Willie the Duck]

This setup completely invites the DM to find a way to send the box into a pit of lava/acid or the like (or just a water trap, which you might float on, but you'd still be stuck in a water trap).

Honestly, this character sounds like a candidate for experiencing the adventure through some form of telepresence, or just sending hirelings, or heck why is this character an adventurer in the first place? Seems like they should be living their best life as a safe, comfortable non-adventurer. Minor creation isn't exactly Wall of Iron+Fabricate, but I'm sure that an individual of this capability should be able to find a near-infinite-wealth loop somehow. Seems preferable to experiencing the adventuring life through a box.

[MoiMagnus]

but now, i found out i can get some stuff i like 1 or 2 levels earlier if i dont use the box. by going something other than shaper. but i have no idea what to do without a box. too many times my wizard died to a fireball while invisible. too many times my wizard ran away because of a fiend fear aura and killed me with attacks of opportunity. too many times ive been focus fired from archers with my wizard ac and die.

so how are you supposed to defend yourself without a box?

By having your teammates more competent at protecting you than the enemy is competent at killing you.
[Which requires either very competent munckins and minmaxers as teammates, or a DM kind enough to not push its players toward paranoiac play-style]

[newguydude1]

Can I ask why enemies never readied spells or actions for when the flap in your box was open to actually manage to attack you? Seems like a pretty obvious flaw in your box setup.

my first astral construct usually is strong enough to kill most encounters so it never came to that.

my box got broke a few times and i dimension door away from the fight but even then my astral construct, who died twice, was capable of finishing the job with teammates.


Frankly, I’m surprised your DM hasn’t decided that bronzewood, being wood, is flammable and catches fire when exposed to a fireball, roasting you alive inside the box. Does he like you playing this way?

the one time he did use fireball on my psion it destroyed the box so there was no need to set it on fire. dm ruled hp of box is the hp of one side, which was 20hp.

As no-one seems to have rbouight this up, I feel it must be said, to cover all bases:

If this is not a theorhetical exercise or if you and your DM have not mutally agreed that you (and your group) are all very much (like 110%) okay with this... state of affairs previously, then you are your DM are long ovedue for a sit-down and long, out-of-character conversation.

for what?

[WesleyVos]

Let's take these one at a time.

Note that I don't usually play psionics, just standard Vancian casters, but most of these should work with psionics as well.


how do you handle 3-4 archers equal level to your wizard shooting your wizard instead of the fighter or cleric?

Level 3-4: Use the terrain to your advantage. Slap down a Grease spell (Sculpted if possible) under the archers so they are so busy with trying to balance they can't focus on you. Hit them with Glitterdust. Reduce Person to increase your dodge AC. Pick up Cloudy Conjuration as a feat and summon something nearby (gives you free concealment every time you summon). Web them. Hit them with a fog cloud. Hit them with a Cloud of Bewilderment. Baleful Transposition one of the archers with your main damage dealer, putting your fighter in the middle of their squishy archers. Wall of Smoke them. Cast Shield on yourself. Cast Protection from Arrows.

Level 5-6: In addition to the above, Sleet Storm, Dimension Step your allies, Stinking Cloud, Greater Mage Armor, Caustic Smoke, Unluck.

Level 7-8: Evard's Black Tentacles (a grappled archer isn't shooting you), Solid Fog, Wall of Sand, Translocation Trick, Displacer Form, Heart of Earth (free Stoneskin), Trollshape (gets you regeneration).

The short version is to stop thinking of defense and offense separately. Your best defense is to knock the people killing you out of the fight or get them distracted somehow.


how do you handle a wizard equal level to you throwing a fireball at you?

Much of what I said for archers applies, but there are some additional resources to deal with wizards (particularly inferior blaster wizards):

Level 7-8: Dispelling Screen, Globe of Invulnerability (Lesser).

Basically, they can't shoot magic at you through stuff like that, and lower-level spells aren't going to hurt you as much. You need to put the enemy wizard on the ground before he can open up on you.


how do you handle a big devil with fear aura greater teleporting right next to you and then attacking only you instead of your other party members?

Easiest? Benign Transposition. You swap places with any willing ally. And then hit the stupid devil with all those other spells I mentioned.


You really have to begin thinking offensively. Sure, you're going to get hit, but you shouldn't go down completely in the first round unless your DM really has it out for you (in which case you probably need to have an OOC conversation with the DM). And once you get past the initial surprise, you have a ton of options at your disposal for eliminating threats like you described.

[Psyren]

Can I ask why enemies never readied spells or actions for when the flap in your box was open to actually manage to attack you? Seems like a pretty obvious flaw in your box setup.

They don't even need to do that - opening and closing the flap is a move action, so he should be spending at least every other round exposed when it's not his turn, unless of course he's manifesting Hustle every round.

[newguydude1]

They don't even need to do that - opening and closing the flap is a move action, so he should be spending at least every other round exposed when it's not his turn, unless of course he's manifesting Hustle every round.

i use move action to unbar flap
psicrystal use move action to open flap
i use standard action to manifest synchronicity + link power + metapower + astral ocnstruct
psicrystal closes flap as move action
i use synchronicity readied action to bar flap


Seems like you could use this strategy without the silly box setup.

no. boss crawled from ceiling, dropped on top of me, and power attacked my box to destruction. if my box didnt buy us a few rounds he woulda killed me.

i mean sure i have vigor at max manifester level on me at all times but i have no ac. full round attack and he one shots me.

[Psyren]

psicrystal closes flap as move action

Does it use its hands? :smalltongue:


no. boss crawled from ceiling, dropped on top of me, and power attacked my box to destruction. if my box didnt buy us a few rounds he woulda killed me.

i mean sure i have vigor at max manifester level on me at all times but i have no ac. full round attack and he one shots me.

As others have said, this definitely feels like the GM is trying to arms-race you.

[newguydude1]

Does it use its hands? :smalltongue:

uses those psion spider leg thingies with the climb speed.


As others have said, this definitely feels like the GM is trying to arms-race you.

we playing castle ravenloft right now so i really dont think so.

box was destroyed by this vampire druid thing that crawled and dropped.
box was destroyed by fireball from strahd.
box was destroyed by an amber golem once.


Let's take these one at a time.

Note that I don't usually play psionics, just standard Vancian casters, but most of these should work with psionics as well.



Level 3-4: Use the terrain to your advantage. Slap down a Grease spell (Sculpted if possible) under the archers so they are so busy with trying to balance they can't focus on you. Hit them with Glitterdust. Reduce Person to increase your dodge AC. Pick up Cloudy Conjuration as a feat and summon something nearby (gives you free concealment every time you summon). Web them. Hit them with a fog cloud. Hit them with a Cloud of Bewilderment. Baleful Transposition one of the archers with your main damage dealer, putting your fighter in the middle of their squishy archers. Wall of Smoke them. Cast Shield on yourself. Cast Protection from Arrows.

Level 5-6: In addition to the above, Sleet Storm, Dimension Step your allies, Stinking Cloud, Greater Mage Armor, Caustic Smoke, Unluck.

Level 7-8: Evard's Black Tentacles (a grappled archer isn't shooting you), Solid Fog, Wall of Sand, Translocation Trick, Displacer Form, Heart of Earth (free Stoneskin), Trollshape (gets you regeneration).

The short version is to stop thinking of defense and offense separately. Your best defense is to knock the people killing you out of the fight or get them distracted somehow.



Much of what I said for archers applies, but there are some additional resources to deal with wizards (particularly inferior blaster wizards):

Level 7-8: Dispelling Screen, Globe of Invulnerability (Lesser).

Basically, they can't shoot magic at you through stuff like that, and lower-level spells aren't going to hurt you as much. You need to put the enemy wizard on the ground before he can open up on you.



Easiest? Benign Transposition. You swap places with any willing ally. And then hit the stupid devil with all those other spells I mentioned.


You really have to begin thinking offensively. Sure, you're going to get hit, but you shouldn't go down completely in the first round unless your DM really has it out for you (in which case you probably need to have an OOC conversation with the DM). And once you get past the initial surprise, you have a ton of options at your disposal for eliminating threats like you described.


The spell wind wall is usually how I see wizards handling archers from levels 3-8.

Resist energy (fire) can protect from fireballs.

It takes some prep, but fire is usually the highest damage energy type you’ll face at those levels unless you’re going into particular and usually predictable situations where another energy would be more prevalent.

Mage armor + shield is also generally enough to keep a wizard AC competitive.

Blur and displacement also work well against attacks. As does mirror image.

And if you just need hit points, false life isn’t great, but helps. An average of 8.5 extra hp at level 3 up to 13.5 extra at level 8.

And, if your DM is focus firing you because he claims you’re the obvious threat, use disguise self to look like just another minion.

Frankly, I’m surprised your DM hasn’t decided that bronzewood, being wood, is flammable and catches fire when exposed to a fireball, roasting you alive inside the box. Does he like you playing this way?

I mean, on one character, it’s a big but potentially amusing and interesting quirk. As a strategy that every character uses, I would think it would get tiresome, and the fact the DM enables it but shuts down more normal ways of play is odd, to me.


For example greater magic armor+ shield to gain a good bonus to AC , or protection from arrows, or invisibility or alter self for example to have even a better AC
A fireball generally is launched against many party member but i can use dispel magic / false life/ item that boost my saves / protection from energy or use an amulet of tears for example
From melee attacks an item i like is the shadow cloak from drow of the underdark, is a very good way to avoid complete attacks, and then i can use my spells to block the demon and against the fear aura there are spells like heroism or other items. Remember that theorically is a game played by a party so while your solution is based for you is not collaborative , and even thinking that each attack will go at you when there are other 3 party members (and assuming the typical composition 1 cleric that can be a problem like a wizard) that could be targeted. The solutions exists because not each one can create a box and let the minion do all work , so mainly my way to have a solution for the problems is using a magic item, or collaborate , there are spells and powers quite strong so the box solution work only if you play each time the same typology of character , is a solution? Yes it is, is a good solution, but if i would be a party member or the DM i wouldn't like it

how do you guys have enough spell slots for stuff like shield and wind wall which you dont even know you are gonna use today and enough spells for offensive stuff? most of these spells are one encounter only.

[Psyren]

uses those psion spider leg thingies with the climb speed.

I take it back - your GM is fairly permissive because no way would I allow them to manipulate objects with those.



box was destroyed by this vampire druid thing that crawled and dropped.
box was destroyed by fireball from strahd.
box was destroyed by an amber golem once.

Is it possible that being in the box all the time is letting these threats catch you off-guard?

[Goaty14]

Seems like you could use this strategy without the silly box setup.

But the box is safer than outside the box! What if there are enemies BEHIND the party, waiting for him to DD away? Nay I say, the box is the pinnacle of defense! It should not be abandoned until absolutely necessary! The box will break before the psion does! :smallwink:
...
DD'ing away from the danger is yeah, probably a more sane solution, but in this case it does really seem that the DM is out to get this player, or playing the monsters intelligently ("Kill the nerd in robes first! He's defenseless!"), and I agree that if it's the former, talking about it OOC should help, and if the latter, responding intelligently should also help (ie disguising yourself as somebody else, using more advanced caster tactics, etc). If neither works, however, the box seems like a pretty good, thought out response, imo. At the very least, it's a better response to "*@*&@*%# you GM, I'm not gonna play anymore", because it seems like the player is invested in the game and is having fun, right?

[newguydude1]

I take it back - your GM is fairly permissive because no way would I allow them to manipulate objects with those.

you might be right actually. i totally forgot he had 1str at diminuitive size. thats 2.5lbs carry weight. so he can at most lift 5lbs.

ok i switch things around. psicrystal unbars flap, i use one hand to lift flap. bar will weight 5lbs. i use free action to drop flap, and my readied action to bar flap.


Is it possible that being in the box all the time is letting these threats catch you off-guard?

it wasnt offguard. he killed my astral construct then went for me as i spend a round creating a new one. except the druid. he ignored my construct.


because it seems like the player is invested in the game and is having fun, right?

im having fun. 90% of encounters only my party members are risk of dying or suffering level drain, not me. i like it when im not at threat of level drain.

[Segev]

I usually find that mage armor + shield is more than enough defense. Mage armor by itself is usually enough. At level 3, that's two castings for the majority of the day. But this is for a wizard. You're a psion. (In a way, inertial armor is cheaper, because 1 pp is way cheaper than a level 1 spell slot, and more sustainable in a "once a fight" situation. In another, it's way WAY more expensive, because you ahve so few powers known.)

As a psion, if you're already willing to huddle in a box, you could try getting full plate instead. You're not proficient, but you don't need to be, and it doesn't interfere with manifesting. And you can dimension door with your armor on!

In said armor, you won't obviously stand out from the other fighter-types. Heck, carry a tower shield and stand in front of the druid or something like you're some sort of obstacle. If the bosses are ignoring your astral constructs, then they should ignore the useless defense-fighter who gets in the way of the real threats.

Consider empty mind (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/e/empty-mind) as a power known if you're really having that much trouble with fear effects. It's an immediate action, and you can pump your will save up by 3 at level 3, and by 5 at level 7 (and 8). If you've got overchannel and talented (though you probably don't with an astral construct-focused build), you can get it up to +6 at level 8 by overchanneling, and, since it's a level 1 power, Talented keeps it from costing you hp.

[Aotrs Commander]

for what?

For what underlying issues that there are with the game that makes you so adverse to taking damage (which is part of the game) you have to bend the game mechanics to their most literal interpretation backwards into what... Okay, I'm just going to come right out and say it, is silliness.

It concerns me that you asked that and didn't answer in the affirmative that you and your DM have already agreed this is okay, because that brings us right back to "arms race with the DM." And that's an out-of-character issue.

You cannot win an arms race against the DM. You can't. If he REALLY wants to kill you, I could think of dozens of easy ways to counter or throw this tactics right back at you. But that's not the issue. Trying to one-up him with "nu-uh, you can't hurt my characters" is only more likely to make the DM want to and encourage that cycle.

The way to "fix" the problem is to have an out-of-character, out-of-game talk with your DM and reach a compromise. I don't know - can't know - wihat the situation is. It may simply be that you and th DM don't have compatible playstyles for whatever reason, and then you have to make the decision as to whether, in light of that, you want to carry on. Mybae you do, maybe this DM's otherwise your best mate; I can't know that. But, from the information you have provided thus far, this very much sounds like you seeking an in-character solution for a problem which is out-of-game.

[WesleyVos]

how do you guys have enough spell slots for stuff like shield and wind wall which you dont even know you are gonna use today and enough spells for offensive stuff? most of these spells are one encounter only.

My typical build is a focused-specialist conjurer (Strongheart halfling) with at least an 18 starting INT (whatever I have to give up to get there). That gets me (at level 3) 6 cantrips, 4 level 1 spells, and 3 level 2 spells. Granted, most of them have to be conjuration (3/3/3) but it's well worth it. A typical load-out would be Sculpted Grease, Summon Monster I (cloudy conjuration), Benign Transposition, Mage Armor, Glitterdust, Web, and either Fog Cloud or Cloud of Bewilderment.

If we increase that to level 8, that gives me 6 cantrips, 6 level 1's, 5 level 2's, 5 level 3's, and 4 level 4's, with three of each of those needing to be conjuration. That's more than enough to handle a day's worth of encounters. Again, a typical loadout ends up being:

Level 1: Sculpted Grease, Grease x2, Mage Armor, and two floating spots based on the day's needs.
Level 2: Glitterdust, Web, Fog Cloud, Baleful Transposition x2
Level 3: Stinking Cloud, Greater Magic Armor, Summon Monster III (x2), floating spot. I'll often throw in Wall of Chains as a good BFC spell.
Level 4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Monster IV, Phantom Steed (if outdoors, otherwise floating spot), floating spot.

That's plenty of spells to last a full adventuring day. I'd also probably have a few level 1 wands (Enlarge person, Silent Image, Reduce Person, Benign Transposition) that are useful in a pinch but spells that I don't want to have to memorize.

[Psyren]

ok i switch things around. psicrystal unbars flap, i use one hand to lift flap. bar will weight 5lbs. i use free action to drop flap, and my readied action to bar flap.

I'm saying that it shouldn't be able to finely manipulate objects at all, irrespective of their weight, including bars and latches. Again though, if your GM is allowing that then it doesn't matter what I think.



it wasnt offguard. he killed my astral construct then went for me as i spend a round creating a new one. except the druid. he ignored my construct.

I meant the one that fell on your box from the ceiling. Did you have a chance to notice he was there? It sounds like a "gotcha" sort of attack.

[newguydude1]

I'm saying that it shouldn't be able to finely manipulate objects at all, irrespective of their weight, including bars and latches. Again though, if your GM is allowing that then it doesn't matter what I think.

if a psicrystal that can move uses its sticky feet to pull something within his weight (flap), or pushes something sideways like a dog burying his head under something until it slides 1ft left (bar), why shouldnt it move? its not fine manipulation. its just a flap like a doggie door or a bar.


I meant the one that fell on your box from the ceiling. Did you have a chance to notice he was there? It sounds like a "gotcha" sort of attack.

yeah. i had 2 quoris and an astral construct. he killed the astral construct in 2 rounds, then started climbing the ceiling because my quoris were blocking his way to me. after my astral construct manifested he dropped down on top of me. then he ignored the construct and tried to break my box. he did, i dd out, he fought until he turned into a vampiric mist and floated somewhere far away but not before severely wounding another party member.

[Telok]

For a psion, particularly a shaper one, investing a level of fighter (or warblade, etc.) is perfectly allowable. Being a dwarf with a high Con is useful too.

Armor to your dex, tripping pole arm, stand behind your mook, the psychic shield power. That can carry you through to mid levels just fine. A 16+ con dwarf gets pretty decent hp & save bonuses even before hit dice. Vigor is nice but vulnerable to dispell.

At higher levels you care more about line of sight blockers, blind sight denial, using true seeing liberally, and hard counters on enemy actions. Plus armor is a good place to put defensive enchantments.

The issue I see with the box is it encapsulates you, so it isn't "on your person" equipment and doesn't share your defenses/saves. A scroll of disentegrate and it's gone, leaving you exposed. Even better might be a teleport denial area and an airtight shaped wall of stone around it.

For hilarity the power that can teleport enemy equipment into your hands is fun. Will save and SR, but you use it on archer/fighter types to steal weapons.

[Angrith]

im having fun. 90% of encounters only my party members are risk of dying or suffering level drain, not me. I like it when im not at threat of level drain.

And you know what? This is what matters. If you, your party, and your GM, are all having a good time, then your box is perfectly viable.

[Psyren]

Eh, I don't see anything in the psicrystal or psion entries that says the legs are "sticky." So pulling is out. Moving to push the flap open means you won't be able to drop it to close it, the psicrystal is still there and should be exposed when your turn ends. Involving it in combat like this isn't the best idea imo. Again though, that's just how I would rule it, your GM's opinion is the one that matters.

[newguydude1]

Eh, I don't see anything in the psicrystal or psion entries that says the legs are "sticky." So pulling is out. Moving to push the flap open means you won't be able to drop it to close it, the psicrystal is still there and should be exposed when your turn ends. Involving it in combat like this isn't the best idea imo. Again though, that's just how I would rule it, your GM's opinion is the one that matters.

the legs give it climb speed. how is that not sticky. if it wasnt sticky it wouldnt give climb speed.
pushing is pushing the bar <----- so it no longer covers the flap so i can lift it myself (it only opens inwards otherwise bar would be pointless), and the pushing it back ------> so it covers the flap.

pushing bar is probably best route so i can use 5 x 2.5 = 12.5lb bar.


The issue I see with the box is it encapsulates you, so it isn't "on your person" equipment and doesn't share your defenses/saves. A scroll of disentegrate and it's gone, leaving you exposed. Even better might be a teleport denial area and an airtight shaped wall of stone around it.

yeah. autofail every reflex save cause the box doesnt move. is why fireball destroyed it in one shot. but my reflex save is terrible, so is my fort save so i rather have a box disintegrate and dd out rather than try my luck at that saving throw.


And you know what? This is what matters. If you, your party, and your GM, are all having a good time, then your box is perfectly viable.

i dont see what the big deal is. this isnt drown healing or anything weird and unrealistic. if a paranoid guy wants to stay inside a barrel and be carried around like luggage, why would any of this matter to anyone?

i dont understand why Aotrs Commander is so angry at this. it is silly. thats part of why its fun. the box adventurer.

[Aotrs Commander]

i dont see what the big deal is. this isnt drown healing or anything weird and unrealistic. if a paranoid guy wants to stay inside a barrel and be carried around like luggage, why would any of this matter to anyone?

i dont understand why Aotrs Commander is so angry at this. it is silly. thats part of why its fun.

Angry? Not remotely. Concerned? Potentially. We get enough people around there posting stuff that boils down to trying to deal with out-of-game conflicts via what is essentially spite-play that it needs to be at least ASKED that's not what's going on, because that's not how those situations should be handled.

As I said, if you and your group are okay with the state of affairs (which you hadn't said up to that post), that's fine; I cannot and will not tell you you're having badwrongfun. If you're all happy with an enviroment of high PC-death that's a perfectly valid way to play, and I have nothing more I can contribute. But you didn't say that was the case straight away, so we can't know whether the DM had it out for you personally or what, which would be symptomatic of an out-of-character issue which no amount of rules-savvy will fix.

[newguydude1]

But you didn't say that was the case straight away, so we can't know whether the DM had it out for you personally or what, which would be symptomatic of an out-of-character issue which no amount of rules-savvy will fix.

sorry. my bad. i apologize. im not good at talking. so sorry.

my wizard deaths were from a different dm. i never played wizard with my current dm. i played cleric, sorcerer, artificer, and psion but not wizard. and with that dm my wizard died a lot. i dont think its cause of an arms race. i mean we were doing modules and fireball and archers are common. but those deaths got me scared and now i am really paranoid when i play a d4 hit die character with no armor proficiency. (Telok accurately pointed out i could wear full plate with my psion. i cant believe i never thought of this. i guess i thought psion = wizard)

with the current dm we only had 1 pc death and he died because the bbeg landed a crit with some kind of a negative energy boosted attack. it was really unlucky.

i shouldve said this at the start. my bad.

but the box did save me from 3 deaths with my current dm who is also just doing modules. so my paranoia is well founded imo.

[Psyren]

the legs give it climb speed. how is that not sticky. if it wasnt sticky it wouldnt give climb speed.

I viewed that more as finding tiny purchase in the surface it's climbing, rather than an adhesive. A climb speed doesn't give you the ability to manipulate things, even some snakes have a climb speed, and they don't have anything "sticky" nor limbs.


pushing is pushing the bar <----- so it no longer covers the flap so i can lift it myself (it only opens inwards otherwise bar would be pointless), and the pushing it back ------> so it covers the flap.

I still don't buy it but once again, I'm not your GM, so I'll leave it there.


i dont see what the big deal is. this isnt drown healing or anything weird and unrealistic. if a paranoid guy wants to stay inside a barrel and be carried around like luggage, why would any of this matter to anyone?

I mean, it doesn't, except for the fact that it really shouldn't work if you're fighting enemies with, like, any intelligence. So either your GM is taking some measure of pity on you (despite causing you to use such unorthodox tactics in the first place) or they think it's more effective than it actually is (e.g. forgetting that readied actions exist.) Regardless, if you're both having fun that's the important thing.

[magicalmagicman]

pushing is pushing the bar <----- so it no longer covers the flap so i can lift it myself (it only opens inwards otherwise bar would be pointless), and the pushing it back ------> so it covers the flap.

This works. Diminuitive creatures are fully capable of pushing and pulling objects just like any other creature. Whether its pushing a bag, a box, or a bar, doesn't matter. If the ground supports the object's weight, you can push or drag it in any horizontal direction. A bar's weight is supported by the bar handles. The bars are fully capable of sliding left or right, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with a diminuitive creature pushing the bar left or right. Psicrystals have a climb speed of 20ft and we're talking about moving an object 1ft.

I can't see any reason why a DM would say otherwise. Carry weight, dragging rules, what else is involved?

[Quertus]

Your paranoia is well-founded - squishy d4 characters die a lot, especially under me. But also with me running them.

Personally, I've found "good will saves" and "Trollblooded" do wonders for surviving most of those; DR can help with actually staying conscious instead of being dropped in the first round.

Actually, I had a regenerating "Fighter" who, even with DR and immunity to most elements, was generally dropped in the 1st round of combat, so even getting away from the d4 is no guarantee.

Also… how do you see out of your box, to know what actions to take? :smallconfused: Or do you just "summon, replenish, repeat"? Which begs the question, "how does your <summon> know what to do?".

That - and the fact that you, iirc (from previous thread) completely overshadow the 2 Fighters in the party - are the only problems I see the build. Assuming you have a Ring of Sustenance, or a chamber pot, that is.

The box is nice. Stay inside the box, where it's safe… until your opponents learn about "readied actions", that is.

Once they do… see if you can get Trollblooded Necropolitan Elf with Int to HP. In armor. Venerable to taste. If your Summoning has range (or can otherwise work with this plan), getting minions to carry you up high, out of reach of the general rabble (and many monsters) can replace many of the box's functions, while making your character seem less "paranoid" and more "lordly". :smallwink:

Back to the box… if you're going to play the game the Armus way, you *want* your opponents - especially at higher level - to waste their turns holding an action to shoot at you over the more optimal full attack action. You just need to have your plans in place on how you are going to survive such focused fire. The best answer, of course, is that the guy that they see through the hole is *not* you, so arrows and targeted spells either fail on an illusion, or hit a disposable Summon with a Hat of Disguise. Being the Venerable Trollblooded Necropolitan Elf in armor… inside the box… is another fairly survivable option.

I've made some fairly… "survivable" characters. I think, were I to make another, I would probably have paid for Animate Objects + Permanency on ship-grade adamantine. So the box carries itself.

[newguydude1]

Also… how do you see out of your box, to know what actions to take? :smallconfused: Or do you just "summon, replenish, repeat"? Which begs the question, "how does your <summon> know what to do?".

elemental envoys and quoris have telepathy. telepathy goes through walls.


Once they do… see if you can get Trollblooded Necropolitan Elf with Int to HP. In armor. Venerable to taste. If your Summoning has range (or can otherwise work with this plan), getting minions to carry you up high, out of reach of the general rabble (and many monsters) can replace many of the box's functions, while making your character seem less "paranoid" and more "lordly". :smallwink:

i need con 13 for midnight augmentation which is needed for power point regeneration.

[Emperor Tippy]

Use Arms and Equipment Guide to make yourself Stronghold Builder's Guide a better Battle Box?

You can make yourself a really nifty hovertank with that book.

[Rater202]

If the current GM is okay with the Box, see about getting an Adamantine Box. (Or Pure Ore Oearthblooded Obdrium, to reference another thread) to minimize the chances of the box getting broken.

Otherwise, a dip in a class that gives you heavy armor proficiency combined with the most durable armor and shield you can get is a good start. The heaviest armor you can wear without losing your Dex bonus to AC, if you have one. Preferable Adamantine or similar, becuase it gives you DR, with defensive enchantments: Fortification to resist crits or Greater(Energy) Resistance should protect you from most hits of that energy.

The trollblooded feat is also good, and if you don't mind hits to dex and cha the combination of Mongrelfolk and Dragonborn of Bahamut gives a pretty major con-bonus.

If you're willing to put up with a +1 level adjustment and a hit to int, the Gheddon template makes you immune to nonlethal damage, stunning and death by massive damage and some bonus feats that minorly improve durability while maintaining a con score, which combined with trollblooded makes you immune to everything but fire and acid

Though this thread tells me that my "normal dude living in an indestructible flying chest" base class idea might have a market.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Don't forget vigor + share pain + share both with psicrystal. Effectively doubles your hp AND temp hp.

A handful of +1 manifester arrows can easily fuel that combo all day, and they're quite cheap.

[Telok]

Oh, look up the revenant race. It's an undead out for vengance. Until it finds that vengance the only ways to make it stop coming back are wish, miracle, and remove curse. Seriously, beat to 0 hp & disentegrated? Comes back.

[Telonius]

no. i dont want enemies to roll me down a cliff and to my death.

its a box to maximize friction, and theres empty space i can fill with even more bronzewood to make my box so heavy it cant be moved.

I'd be more concerned with my enemies sneaking in and applying some Sovereign Glue to the flap. As part of your defense, you should find a way to survive without air, food, or water. (Going to the bathroom may be an issue, too). Have you considered becoming Undead? Vampire would be the intuitive pick, but I'd advise against it; they would need to leave the box to feed occasionally. A Lich or a Necropolitan would probably work better.

[magicalmagicman]

I'd be more concerned with my enemies sneaking in and applying some Sovereign Glue to the flap. As part of your defense, you should find a way to survive without air, food, or water. (Going to the bathroom may be an issue, too). Have you considered becoming Undead? Vampire would be the intuitive pick, but I'd advise against it; they would need to leave the box to feed occasionally. A Lich or a Necropolitan would probably work better.

It's minor creation so the duration ends.
Hardness 10 is not insurmountable. His summons or his party members can easily spend a minute destroying it.
It's dispellable.

In his other thread, his psion is a warforged scout. Better than a necropolitan imo. He also mentioned about needing a con score to grab incarnum feats a few posts up.

[Lord Haart]

I'd be more concerned with my enemies sneaking in and applying some Sovereign Glue to the flap. As part of your defense, you should find a way to survive without air, food, or water. (Going to the bathroom may be an issue, too). Have you considered becoming Undead? Vampire would be the intuitive pick, but I'd advise against it; they would need to leave the box to feed occasionally. A Lich or a Necropolitan would probably work better.

Actually, a good way to keep oneself safe-ish is becoming a Ghost rather than a corporeal undead. (Specifically the Ghost savage progression, which unfortunately seems no longer available on WoTC site). Not only does incorporeality give you some degree of protection against material enemies (while you can cherry-pick powers and abilities that aren't hindered at all), and undeath itself isn't bad either as far as immunities are concerned, but you also have a chance (1d20+HD check at DC 16) to reform after being destroyed (unless the reason you cling to the living world is solved as well). (Note that this last ability requires 3 levels in the template class, so level 4 at the minimum, so it's not part of the level 2-3 package you seek; the rest is, though.)

Also, being incorporeal and flying, you can move into and out of solid objects/surfaces to break LOS pretty much at-will. So you can hide in walls, ceiling, or in the floor. The world is now your box!

[magicalmagicman]

Also, being incorporeal and flying, you can move into and out of solid objects/surfaces to break LOS pretty much at-will. So you can hide in walls, ceiling, or in the floor. The world is now your box!

Incorporeal can't go through walls. They can attack through walls, they can move most of their body through walls, but they can't completely walk through a wall.

[Powerdork]

Incorporeal can't go through walls. They can attack through walls, they can move most of their body through walls, but they can't completely walk through a wall.

You're close.


An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own.

This allows room for a ghost to pass through thin walls; a ghost hydra could pass through a wall 15 feet thick, but not 20 feet thick.

[Psyren]

Ghosts are a special case because they are ethereal, not merely incorporeal. Ghosts can walk through walls of any thickness easily (though they may not always see where they're going), and could go through the entire planet provided something related to their Purpose isn't keeping them in one spot.

[Quertus]

(Specifically the Ghost savage progression, which unfortunately seems no longer available on WoTC site).

Does anyone have it saved anywhere?

[Vizzerdrix]

And, if your DM is focus firing you because he claims you’re the obvious threat, use disguise self to look like just another minion.

I had that problem once. A twilight mithtal chain shirt, and a pair of short swords later and I was passing for a ranger. I even kept the swords up on enchantments and used steeldance on them. Good times.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

https://web.archive.org/web/20190908183229/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a

[newguydude1]

I take it back - your GM is fairly permissive because no way would I allow them to manipulate objects with those.

when you say online on this forum that my methodology is wrong, you are telling me and my dm who also frequents this forum that what i am doing is illegal. that i am breaking the rules and cheating. that he has made a mistake in allowing me to do the things i am doing. so i take anyone accusing me of being wrong very seriously.

so in the end, after reviewing the rules, when it is revealed that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what i was doing, that you just sent me on a wild goose chase, that there was absolutely no basis for your accusation, and yet you still refuse to admit your error, it is extremely frustrating for all involved. especially me because it feels like i spent my time catering to someone who flagrantly ignores the rules and is trying to convince others that his house rules is the correct way to play the game. i dont want to feel this way. i want to feel like i spent my time catering to someone who has mastered the system and is doing me a favor by pointing out my mistakes.

so in the future please say whether you are using the 3.5 d&d ruleset or your own house rules when you throw accusations my way so i know which ruleset we are using in this discussion.


This works. Diminuitive creatures are fully capable of pushing and pulling objects just like any other creature. Whether its pushing a bag, a box, or a bar, doesn't matter. If the ground supports the object's weight, you can push or drag it in any horizontal direction. A bar's weight is supported by the bar handles. The bars are fully capable of sliding left or right, so there is absolutely nothing wrong with a diminuitive creature pushing the bar left or right. Psicrystals have a climb speed of 20ft and we're talking about moving an object 1ft.

I can't see any reason why a DM would say otherwise. Carry weight, dragging rules, what else is involved?

this is what an argument based on the d&d 3.5 ruleset looks like. every claim is directly supported by a rule. and people who disagree can have a discussion by challenging his basis. this however


I still don't buy it

is just you saying "i dont like it so i dont accept it". at the end of the discussion, when the rules have definitively proved that one ruling is unambiguously correct, and the other party simply responds by saying "i dont like it so i dont accept it", i get really frustrated because i realized that we werent having a rule discussion. we were just talking about your table. so please say upfront that you are talking about your table so we dont have a misunderstanding and end up getting frustrated at the end.

[Psyren]

newguy, I didn't "send you" anywhere. I apologize if you felt like I did. Your opening post asked for opinions and I gave mine. Ultimately, your GM's opinion matters far more than mine ever could, so let's agree to disagree and move on.

I will point out as a final comment though, that if you're focused on "ruleset-based arguments", then a custom-engineered box with flaps and handles that isn't present in any rulebook (that I'm aware of) is a questionable place to start.

[Xervous]

Minor nitpick on the movement of the bar. If we are talking a simple horizontally sliding structural piece there is no doubt we should be using push/drag values. At 5x the max load a value of 12.5 lbs is rather surprising for the lowly psicrystal, however the rules text notes that conditions may adjust this upper limit value to as much as double (10x) or below half (2.5x) with no explicit bottom value given. As the gm determines how circumstantial modifiers play out in this nonstandard case it may be pertinent to get an exact ruling on the push/drag modifier that is in play here.

At roughly 0.284 lb per cubic inch a 1in diameter iron bar one foot long weighs just shy of 2.7 lbs. A bar of square cross sectional area of the same length is 3.4 lbs. A 2 foot square bar 6.8 which is greater than the example 0.5x unfavorable push/drag at which a psicrystal can only move 6.25 lbs.

All of this is likely trivial as the bar won’t be a point of failure on the structure when raw damage will batter holes in the box easily enough. Though as it is effectively a door with a bar I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if the GM opened it with Knock.

[Segev]

Minor nitpick on the movement of the bar. If we are talking a simple horizontally sliding structural piece there is no doubt we should be using push/drag values. At 5x the max load a value of 12.5 lbs is rather surprising for the lowly psicrystal, however the rules text notes that conditions may adjust this upper limit value to as much as double (10x) or below half (2.5x) with no explicit bottom value given. As the gm determines how circumstantial modifiers play out in this nonstandard case it may be pertinent to get an exact ruling on the push/drag modifier that is in play here.

At roughly 0.284 lb per cubic inch a 1in diameter iron bar one foot long weighs just shy of 2.7 lbs. A bar of square cross sectional area of the same length is 3.4 lbs. A 2 foot square bar 6.8 which is greater than the example 0.5x unfavorable push/drag at which a psicrystal can only move 6.25 lbs.

All of this is likely trivial as the bar won’t be a point of failure on the structure when raw damage will batter holes in the box easily enough. Though as it is effectively a door with a bar I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if the GM opened it with Knock.

The bar is likely also of bronzewood, given how the psion is creating the box. It also is probably light enough to be a "trinket." It's purpose is, as you note, not to seal against serious bashing, but to just hold the flap shut against accident or non-violent effort to open it from the outside. The weight is therefore probably trivial, and certainly less than the psicrystal's own. It also needn't be even a foot long. Just a few inches can latch a flap quite securely.

Frankly, as a DM, I wouldn't be requiring this coordinated shenanigans to open and close it. Opening and closing a flap designed for this purpose would be a free action on the psion's turn. One of those free actions that you can't do infinitely, but can easily do at least once during a turn without it impacting other reasonable amounts of free actions. Seriously, guys, this is opening a latch and pushing up a flap. It's no harder than drawing a weapon while moving.

[magicalmagicman]

I will point out as a final comment though, that if you're focused on "ruleset-based arguments", then a custom-engineered box with flaps and handles that isn't present in any rulebook (that I'm aware of) is a questionable place to start.

Spells needing 1x1 holes for line of effect is a rule.
His 1x1 holes are no different than arrow slits which is part of the ruleset.
Adding "flaps" turns them into doors or windows which is part of the ruleset.
Barring doors and windows and using a strength check to break them open is part of the ruleset.
Using a move action to manipulate an object be it removing a bar or opening a door or window is part of the ruleset.
Crafting boxes with windows and doors that can be barred or opened is part of the ruleset.

Creatures using their move action to manipulate objects is part of the ruleset, and nothing prevents psicrystals from using their move action to manipulate objects.

Nothing here is homebrewed. It's all part of the ruleset.

[Kalkra]

First of all, I like the box. Just throwing that out there.

Second of all, I'll remind you that Wizards get sanctified spells, which includes Luminous Armor, which is a better version of Mage Armor.

Also, if Dragon material is allowed, you can take the Dragon Magic feat from Dragon #308 and cast Shield Companion on a tower shield, which gives you all of the benefits with none of the drawbacks. Only lasts rounds/level, though.

There's also Emerald Planes from Dragon #323 which is basically Wall of Force as a 2nd level spell that lasts minutes/level, can also be horizontal, and you get one plane/2 CL.

[Xervous]

On the topic of breaking the door it is a 13 DC for a (presumably medium sized) wooden door. It is explicitly called out that construction > material in determining an object’s break DC.

Even if one argues that 13 is the DC for a wooden door regardless of size creatures gain bonuses to their strength rolls to break objects based on their size. A large creature with 20 STR would be rolling at +9.

Now either you have it where the door’s DC is lower to account for its size, or a 40 ft tall wooden door is a 13 DC to break assuming each are otherwise of the same construction.

[sorcererlover]

Ultimately, your GM's opinion matters far more than mine ever could, so let's agree to disagree and move on..

From what I gather, his GM's opinion is "whatever the rules say". Your opinion is that the rules say psicrystals cannot manipulate objects. So if your opinion is right then his GM's opinion becomes your opinion which is why the OP took your opinion seriously and responded to it. But you have provided nothing to support your claim. No rule about maximize size of object a creature can manipulate. No rule about psicrystals incapable of manipulating objects. Zero. Nothing. While the opposition took out their DMG and quoted quite a few sections saying what the OP is doing is fully legal.

Yet despite all this you still maintain your position that psicrystals cannot manipulate objects and refuse to show any rule text to support your "opinion". Which is "frustrating" because this is the point when everyone involved in the discussion realize you're not talking about the "3.5 d&d ruleset". And they all just spent all this time talking about your table which has nothing to do with the OP's table.

So you should say whether you're using the "3.5 d&d ruleset" or not when you give your opinion so the OP (and his GM) knows that your opinion is unrelated to the "3.5 d&d ruleset".

[Psyren]

Spells needing 1x1 holes for line of effect is a rule.
His 1x1 holes are no different than arrow slits which is part of the ruleset.
Adding "flaps" turns them into doors or windows which is part of the ruleset.
Barring doors and windows and using a strength check to break them open is part of the ruleset.
Using a move action to manipulate an object be it removing a bar or opening a door or window is part of the ruleset.
Crafting boxes with windows and doors that can be barred or opened is part of the ruleset.

Creatures using their move action to manipulate objects is part of the ruleset, and nothing prevents psicrystals from using their move action to manipulate objects.

Nothing here is homebrewed. It's all part of the ruleset.

Arrow slits are in walls (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#dungeonTerrain), not custom-made boxes. And I don't see an entry for "flaps" anywhere in the D&D 3.5 ruleset either. Again though, that's just the reasoning behind my opinion.

[Xervous]

In the absence of any explicit rules for this case it falls to GM opinion. If we were talking about how aiming through the box’s slit grants everything outside it cover vs the Psion (if it is a smaller hole than 1x1) and I disagreed on some basis like the psion being able to stick his arm out there are rules available for reference that demonstrate I am wrong.

What we have of the psicrystal is rather deficient of detail. It has a walk speed and a climb speed and a STR score. At no time do sources that grant climb speeds call out the recipient gaining the ability to manipulate more things with their limbs. Monkeys and apes do not have explicit callouts for prehensile tails or being able to manipulate objects with their hind limbs. With no explicit definition of what grants a creature the ability to pull an object one must resort to a ruling that can easily vary from GM to GM, table to table. One need only ask a 5e player how hard it is to climb a tree to see the results of this.

Any which way it works or doesn’t, a psicrystal being able to or unable to pull an object is a ruling and thus an opinion.

[magicalmagicman]

Arrow slits are in walls (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#dungeonTerrain), not custom-made boxes. And I don't see an entry for "flaps" anywhere in the D&D 3.5 ruleset either. Again though, that's just the reasoning behind my opinion.

What's the difference between stone "flaps" that open only inward and stone doors that open only inward? Or stone windows that open only inward? Are you saying that what the OP doing is homebrew because he used the word "flap" instead of "door"?


In the absence of any explicit rules for this case it falls to GM opinion. If we were talking about how aiming through the box’s slit grants everything outside it cover vs the Psion (if it is a smaller hole than 1x1) and I disagreed on some basis like the psion being able to stick his arm out there are rules available for reference that demonstrate I am wrong.

What we have of the psicrystal is rather deficient of detail. It has a walk speed and a climb speed and a STR score. At no time do sources that grant climb speeds call out the recipient gaining the ability to manipulate more things with their limbs. Monkeys and apes do not have explicit callouts for prehensile tails or being able to manipulate objects with their hind limbs. With no explicit definition of what grants a creature the ability to pull an object one must resort to a ruling that can easily vary from GM to GM, table to table. One need only ask a 5e player how hard it is to climb a tree to see the results of this.

Any which way it works or doesn’t, a psicrystal being able to or unable to pull an object is a ruling and thus an opinion.

I'd say a creature with spider limbs can pull anything as long as it has something it can wrap around its limb. Like a ring attached to the object, or a rope fashioned in a way it can be tugged with a stick.

[crankykobold]

This is one of the sillier threads I've read. In a box 24/7? Where do you poop? Do you wear the gimp suit too?

[magicalmagicman]

This is one of the sillier threads I've read. In a box 24/7? Where do you poop? Do you where the gimp suit too?

OP is a warforged scout.

[Psyren]

What's the difference between stone "flaps" that open only inward and stone doors that open only inward? Or stone windows that open only inward? Are you saying that what the OP doing is homebrew because he used the word "flap" instead of "door"?

I don't know that I would be kosher with psicrystals opening "doors" either - certainly not stone ones, in boxes or otherwise.
But even if I were calling it "homebrew", why is that somehow a dirty word? If the GM allowed it, and it sounds like they did, then the point of whether *I'm* convinced or not is moot. OP convinced the only person they need to for the game to proceed; I'm genuinely not sure what you want me to say here.

[magicalmagicman]

I don't know that I would be kosher with psicrystals opening "doors" either - certainly not stone ones, in boxes or otherwise.
But even if I were calling it "homebrew", why is that somehow a dirty word? If the GM allowed it, and it sounds like they did, then the point of whether *I'm* convinced or not is moot. OP convinced the only person they need to for the game to proceed; I'm genuinely not sure what you want me to say here.

You were challenging my earlier post with the reasoning that "flap" is not covered by the rules and I was responding to that. There's not really anything I want you to say.

The OP is using the psicrystal to move the bar that's blocking the flap, not to open the flap itself.

[Xervous]

I'd say a creature with spider limbs can pull anything as long as it has something it can wrap around its limb. Like a ring attached to the object, or a rope fashioned in a way it can be tugged with a stick.

And I'd agree with you. My own mental picture of it placed the upper portion of the psicrystal inside the ring so all it had to do was walk one direction or the other on the wall to push the bar as desired.

When it comes to the psicrystal standing with some legs on the bar and some on the opposing wall it's not clear whether or not it can pull. That's where rulings come in.

[Segev]

And I'd agree with you. My own mental picture of it placed the upper portion of the psicrystal inside the ring so all it had to do was walk one direction or the other on the wall to push the bar as desired.

When it comes to the psicrystal standing with some legs on the bar and some on the opposing wall it's not clear whether or not it can pull. That's where rulings come in.

A fairly easy setup would be a specialized bar that slid between two rings spaced enough apart that the latch portion can move entirely in front of or out of the latched position with two spokes between the rings. Place the psicrystal betwene the spokes; it now pushes no matter which way it's moving.

---o-|----|---------o----(latch)
.......|{.}|...........................
.........^......
.........||
psicrystal

[Draconi Redfir]

Personally, the idea of having a psicrystal move a bar back and fourth seems a whole lot more believable to me then the idea of multiple different psions all using the exact same box tactic* :smalltongue:


*This post was made with the intent of being silly and is not to be taken seriously. maybe all the psions know eachother and came up with the box thing together or something, who knows. please ignore me from this point on.

[Quertus]

Minor nitpick on the movement of the bar. If we are talking a simple horizontally sliding structural piece there is no doubt we should be using push/drag values. At 5x the max load a value of 12.5 lbs is rather surprising for the lowly psicrystal, however the rules text notes that conditions may adjust this upper limit value to as much as double (10x) or below half (2.5x) with no explicit bottom value given. As the gm determines how circumstantial modifiers play out in this nonstandard case it may be pertinent to get an exact ruling on the push/drag modifier that is in play here.

At roughly 0.284 lb per cubic inch a 1in diameter iron bar one foot long weighs just shy of 2.7 lbs. A bar of square cross sectional area of the same length is 3.4 lbs. A 2 foot square bar 6.8 which is greater than the example 0.5x unfavorable push/drag at which a psicrystal can only move 6.25 lbs.

All of this is likely trivial as the bar won’t be a point of failure on the structure when raw damage will batter holes in the box easily enough. Though as it is effectively a door with a bar I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if the GM opened it with Knock.

Dragging through the taffy swamp is unfavorable conditions. Pushing across the bepimpled face of a colossal teen earth elemental is unfavorable conditions. Hauling (fireproof) provisions through liquid lava is likely unfavorable conditions. Pushing across a mechanism designed specifically for that purpose is about as favorable of conditions as you can get without frictionless planes or similar shenanigans.

[Azuresun]

This is one of the sillier threads I've read. In a box 24/7? Where do you poop? Do you wear the gimp suit too?

I've been unsure whether this thread is some sort of very elaborate satire.

[Blackhawk748]

Use Arms and Equipment Guide to make yourself a better Battle Box?

You can make yourself a really nifty hovertank with that book.

QFT. That book lets you make some truly silly vehicles. And its lovely.


Don't forget vigor + share pain + share both with psicrystal. Effectively doubles your hp AND temp hp.

A handful of +1 manifester arrows can easily fuel that combo all day, and they're quite cheap.

Was actually coming here to mention this. It's the easiest way to make you more durable. Add in the fact that you're a Psion and I'm wondering why you arent wearing armor. Its not like you care about ASF chance.

[Emperor Tippy]

QFT. That book lets you make some truly silly vehicles. And its lovely.
I actually meant Stronghold Builders Guide. Not A&E. It was a brain fart.

[Blackhawk748]

I actually meant Stronghold Builders Guide. Not A&E. It was a brain fart.

Well that one lets you make a Borg Cube, which is an entire other kettle of fish.

[newguydude1]

Personally, the idea of having a psicrystal move a bar back and fourth seems a whole lot more believable to me then the idea of multiple different psions all using the exact same box tactic* :smalltongue:


*This post was made with the intent of being silly and is not to be taken seriously. maybe all the psions know eachother and came up with the box thing together or something, who knows. please ignore me from this point on.

i dont think anyone but me is gonna use the box. no one on this forum uses project quori spirit. no one on this forum uses elemental envoy. no one on this forum uses metamorphic transfer to create scythers of thoon or ruin elementals.

the box requires permanent minions with telepathy, or party members who dont mind dragging you around 24/7 and describing what they see to you 24/7. blasty psions have to deal with aiming angles and field of view stuff. 1ft hole is tiny lots of blind spots. you cant see the sky from the box.

since no one is interested in playing a pure minion master psion i dont think anyone will use the box. unless someone here tells me how a blasty psion or a normal psion can make use of the box.

the box works because opponents have to get through your minions to be able to be in a position to threaten the box.


I actually meant Stronghold Builders Guide. Not A&E. It was a brain fart.

flying stronghold with that spell turret cannon thing from phb2 dies to disintegrate and too expensive to make a new one. it doesnt even get a save against disintegrate right?

[Draconi Redfir]

i dont think anyone but me is gonna use the box. no one on this forum uses project quori spirit. no one on this forum uses elemental envoy. no one on this forum uses metamorphic transfer to create scythers of thoon or ruin elementals.

since no one is interested in playing a pure minion master psion i dont think anyone will use the box. unless someone here tells me how a blasty psion or a normal psion can make use of the box.

not quite what i meant. i was referring to this line of your original post:


so all my psions have been encased in boxes in every game.


which seems to indicate you playing multiple different psions who all employ this same strategy. One guy i could see, but multiple separate characters all useing it just sounded off to me.

[newguydude1]

not quite what i meant. i was referring to this line of your original post:




which seems to indicate you playing multiple different psions who all employ this same strategy. One guy i could see, but multiple separate characters all useing it just sounded off to me.

its the same psion build in different campaigns. so none of them exist at the same time.

[Draconi Redfir]

ahh i see, i misunderstood then. my bad.

[gogogome]

when you say online on this forum that my methodology is wrong, you are telling me and my dm who also frequents this forum that what i am doing is illegal. that i am breaking the rules and cheating. that he has made a mistake in allowing me to do the things i am doing. so i take anyone accusing me of being wrong very seriously.

so in the end, after reviewing the rules, when it is revealed that there was absolutely nothing wrong with what i was doing, that you just sent me on a wild goose chase, that there was absolutely no basis for your accusation, and yet you still refuse to admit your error, it is extremely frustrating for all involved. especially me because it feels like i spent my time catering to someone who flagrantly ignores the rules and is trying to convince others that his house rules is the correct way to play the game. i dont want to feel this way. i want to feel like i spent my time catering to someone who has mastered the system and is doing me a favor by pointing out my mistakes.

so in the future please say whether you are using the 3.5 d&d ruleset or your own house rules when you throw accusations my way so i know which ruleset we are using in this discussion.



this is what an argument based on the d&d 3.5 ruleset looks like. every claim is directly supported by a rule. and people who disagree can have a discussion by challenging his basis. this however



is just you saying "i dont like it so i dont accept it". at the end of the discussion, when the rules have definitively proved that one ruling is unambiguously correct, and the other party simply responds by saying "i dont like it so i dont accept it", i get really frustrated because i realized that we werent having a rule discussion. we were just talking about your table. so please say upfront that you are talking about your table so we dont have a misunderstanding and end up getting frustrated at the end.

I've had my differences with Psyren in the past, but I couldn't put my finger on what exactly makes me not enjoy my debates with Psyren, but reading this I think i finally figured it out.

Online we talk about RAW because its common and constant. Every table has their own interpretations and house rules so it's impossible to have a discussion online unless we all conform to the same set of rules, and that's RAW. That's why when we talk about how the rules work we talk about RAW. Myself included. And if I am not talking about RAW I make it known by showing the house rules I employ.

Psyren is someone who treats the rules as guidelines, something that he can completely ignore if he thinks the RAW betrays his vision of D&D. There's nothing wrong with this. I'd like to repeat for emphasis. There is nothing wrong with this. The problem however is that he joins RAW debates with this mindset and doesn't say he's talking about his vision of D&D. So one side is talking about RAW, Psyren is talking about his vision of D&D, and that's why in the end, Psyren's arguments always become "convince gm of this, convince gm of that, gm this, gm that" instead of RAW quotes while the other side is rage spamming RAW quotes.

So if we take this thread as an example, when Psyren said Psicrystals cannot push objects, he's not saying it doesn't work within the rules, he's saying in his vision of D&D Psicrystals cannot manipulate objects so he will never allow Psicrystals to manipulate objects in his game regardless of what the rules say. But he doesn't say that. He just says Psicrystals cannot manipulate objects and when presented with RAW from multiple posters his responses go back to "convince gm of this or that" without ever addressing the RAW, or presenting RAW of his own. Which resulted in newguydude1 losing his composure in this thread and in others.

So I agree with newguydude1's conclusion. In order to avoid future drama and misunderstandings with other posters you should state whether you are talking about RAW or your vision of d&d. That way people don't accidentally spend their time telling you how to run your game instead of pursuing their real goal which is figure out how RAW works so they can employ it in their game, not yours. Including myself. I would never tell you how to run your game because I have absolutely no interest in your game, but in the end all our discussions seem to end up that way because you talk exclusively about your game in a RAW discussion without telling us. And then treat our RAW quotes as if we're trying to convince you to change the way you play your game.

In a RAW debate, which this thread was, "convince gm of this or that" is never relevant to anything. It's not an argument about how rules work. No one asked about convincing GMs. If someone wants help convincing their GM then they would say so which is why there's literally no reason why such a statement would ever come up ever in a RAW debate. If someone wants to know your opinion on how you run your game, they will ask you directly.

I once again misunderstood whether you are talking about RAW or your vision of d&d in this thread and was about to post a good deal of quotes from the DMG and d20srd, but thank goodness I held off on posting until I read the entire thread. So please, state whether you are talking about your vision or not.

[Powerdork]

But this thread isn't supposed to be a RAW debate; it's supposed to help the original poster with squishy mage problems.

[Segev]

But this thread isn't supposed to be a RAW debate; it's supposed to help the original poster with squishy mage problems.

Which is why he said to label what you're talking about, whether it's RAW or not. Also, the OP did say that his DM runs by the RAW.

[magicalmagicman]

But this thread isn't supposed to be a RAW debate; it's supposed to help the original poster with squishy mage problems.

When a person claims what the OP is doing is illegal instead of talking about squishy mage problems, it becomes a RAW debate.

[Psyren]

:smallsigh:

There's more than a little hypocrisy inherent in waxing poetic about the benefits of strict adherence to most holy RAW in an online discussion + demanding that anyone with an opinion that runs contrary to any underlying assumption or interpretation qualify said opinion... when that discussion centers around a custom-engineered psicrystal-operable box that isn't actually found in any of the rulebooks.

But at the risk of repeating myself (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611195-how-are-you-supposed-to-defend-yourself-without-a-box&p=24489171&viewfull=1#post24489171) - convincing me of this idea's viability is not and should not be the goal of the OP or anyone else who likes it. I'm not their DM; their DM is in fact fine with this item. My primary purpose in this thread was to concur with Crake that readied actions represent a weakness of this box idea that could be exploited by a savvy opponent. If stating any contrary opinion alongside that message is truly a cause of this much distress, then I apologize, and urge the OP and their supporters to go forth with my blessing - however little it is needed. I've edited my first post in the thread to this effect. I sincerely hope this clears the air.

[magicalmagicman]

psicrystal-operable box that isn't actually found in any of the rulebooks.

Diminuitive creature operable doors and windows is in the core rulebook. Just because it's not assembled into box form doesn't mean it's not in the rules.


But at the risk of repeating myself (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611195-how-are-you-supposed-to-defend-yourself-without-a-box&p=24489171&viewfull=1#post24489171) - convincing me of this idea's viability is not and should not be the goal of the OP or anyone else who likes it. I'm not their DM; their DM is in fact fine with this item. My primary purpose in this thread was to concur with Crake that readied actions represent a weakness of this box idea that could be exploited by a savvy opponent. If stating any contrary opinion alongside that message is truly a cause of this much distress, then I apologize, and urge the OP and their supporters to go forth with my blessing - however little it is needed. I've edited my first post in the thread to this effect. I sincerely hope this clears the air.

We're not talking about convincing you. No one is talking about convincing you. What we are talking about is you not stating clearly that you're completely disregarding the rules when you are completely disregarding the rules.

Also saying "convincing dms" in a ruling debate. We quote the DMG for you, you say "convince dm" as your response in a rule debate. Convincing DMs has nothing to do with how the rules work. And it is infuriating that you always resort to that when we are talking about how the rules work.

So get that silly idea that we're trying to convince you out of your head. We just want you to state that you're completely disregarding the rules when you're completely disregarding the rules.

[Psyren]

Diminuitive creature operable doors and windows is in the core rulebook. Just because it's not assembled into box form doesn't mean it's not in the rules.

That would be what we're agreeing to disagree on, yes.

[Aeson]

I am curious - why do you need a latch on the flap in the first place? It's not that hard to create a flap that, practically speaking, only opens from one side - just have it open outwards, with the exterior face of the flap flush with the exterior of the box and snug enough that it's difficult for anything to slip between the flap and the edge of the opening it's covering when it's closed and very unlikely to open up on its own.

[magicalmagicman]

I am curious - why do you need a latch on the flap in the first place? It's not that hard to create a flap that, practically speaking, only opens from one side - just have it open outwards, with the exterior face of the flap flush with the exterior of the box and snug enough that it's difficult for anything to slip between the flap and the edge of the opening it's covering when it's closed and very unlikely to open up on its own.

I think the OP is using a bar and not a latch (latch is Segev's box design), and he said the flap opens only inward which I assume is so that the bar can block it from opening. And I assume it's so that if an enemy creature does make it to the box, it is forced to spend actions trying to break open the flap or break the box instead of being able to attack the OP immediately. It only takes a move action to open the flap. Needing to spend standard actions with a chance of failure is better than needing to spend only a move action.

[Segev]

I think the OP is using a bar and not a latch (latch is Segev's box design), and he said the flap opens only inward which I assume is so that the bar can block it from opening. And I assume it's so that if an enemy creature does make it to the box, it is forced to spend actions trying to break open the flap or break the box instead of being able to attack the OP immediately. It only takes a move action to open the flap. Needing to spend standard actions with a chance of failure is better than needing to spend only a move action.

I was using latch interchangeably with bar. Though yes, I was picturing it opening outwards, and also question whether the bar is necessary. I agree that an outwards-opening flap that shuts such that there's nothing to grip on the outside to open it should do the job just fine, and not need anything more than a free action to be done as part of manifesting to open, manifest, and let it fall shut.

[magicalmagicman]

I was using latch interchangeably with bar. Though yes, I was picturing it opening outwards, and also question whether the bar is necessary. I agree that an outwards-opening flap that shuts such that there's nothing to grip on the outside to open it should do the job just fine, and not need anything more than a free action to be done as part of manifesting to open, manifest, and let it fall shut.

I think the bar can handle more punishment. I am not an engineer though so it's just a guess on my part.

[Segev]

I think the bar can handle more punishment. I am not an engineer though so it's just a guess on my part.

Depends how the thing's designed. If the flap closes into a slot sized for it, but with a lip to catch it that's significantly thick in both how much of the flap it catches and how deep into the box it goes, it will take significantly more punishment than a bar. Really, though, the way hit points and objects work, this is irrelevant because the 20 hp that the whole side of the box has will be plenty small enough to bust through without needing to specially-target the flap. The consideration for the flap is primarily whether you can target the psion while it's open; this is where the readied action line of discussion comes into it.

[sorcererlover]

convincing me of this idea's viability is not and should not be the goal of the OP or anyone else who likes it.

I think there is a critical failure to communicate here.


so please say upfront that you are talking about your table so we dont have a misunderstanding and end up getting frustrated at the end.


So you should say whether you're using the "3.5 d&d ruleset" or not when you give your opinion so the OP (and his GM) knows that your opinion is unrelated to the "3.5 d&d ruleset".


So please, state whether you are talking about your vision or not.


Which is why he said to label what you're talking about, whether it's RAW or not. Also, the OP did say that his DM runs by the RAW.

No one is trying to convince you of anything. We're all asking that you clearly state that you are talking about your table and not the "3.5 d&d ruleset" whenever you give your "opinion" so that we know whether what you're saying is on topic and relevant to the OP, or is completely irrelevant, off-topic, and doesn't help the OP in the slightest.




That would be what we're agreeing to disagree on, yes.

The ruleset covers two halflings spending their actions opening, closing, locking, and unlocking a small door during combat.
The ruleset covers making your own walls, doors, barrels, boxes, etc.
The ruleset covers diminuitive creatures spending their actions opening, closing, locking, and unlocking doors within their carry weight.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm making it clear to the OP that you are completely wrong.

[Xervous]

I’d contend that there exists a precedent for creatures being unable to manipulate objects with their feet. What’s the caveat? Manipulate is not a game defined term and is being used here by different individuals to mean different things. Precision manipulation and pulling on an otherwise smooth surfaced rectangular object with no explicitly defined hooks, handles, levers or otherwise are simply not possible for feet. If you wish to accept that precision manipulation is possible with generic, non specialized limbs you run into the absurdity that a human could hold a shortsword apiece with each foot.

The draconomicon has verbiage calling out dragon paws as not being prehensile but still being capable of crude manipulations (the implied standard for non-prehensile being no manipulation). The SRD’s only mention of prehensile is found on the rust monster entry (its antennae of all things). So RAW monkeys do not have prehensile tails nor feet which may strike some as odd but that’s RAW. With such context I am inclined to agree that as per RAW there is nothing explicitly giving psicrystal feet the capability to manipulate objects.

As is the case with the monkey the GM could make a ruling, a house rule or other clarification (no, these are a different kind of monkey that do have prehensile tails and feet) but doing so is an expression of the GM’s opinion.

In the absence of details about the flap a bare bones interpretation produced a scenario where the psicrystal could only move it by manipulating (an act requiring prehensile feet that it is not explicitly detailed with) rather than simply pushing. For such a case I see no conclusion beyond that of the GM being permissive if a psicrystal can manipulate stuff with its feet. As a GM it is well within their right, but it is a departure from true RAW and thus open to debate and commentary on its validity.

Additionally: for the sake of humoring us nitpicking playgrounders could you ask your GM what the break DC is for the diminutive door?

[magicalmagicman]

I’d contend that there exists a precedent for creatures being unable to manipulate objects with their feet. What’s the caveat? Manipulate is not a game defined term and is being used here by different individuals to mean different things. Precision manipulation and pulling on an otherwise smooth surfaced rectangular object with no explicitly defined hooks, handles, levers or otherwise are simply not possible for feet. If you wish to accept that precision manipulation is possible with generic, non specialized limbs you run into the absurdity that a human could hold a shortsword apiece with each foot.

The draconomicon has verbiage calling out dragon paws as not being prehensile but still being capable of crude manipulations (the implied standard for non-prehensile being no manipulation). The SRD’s only mention of prehensile is found on the rust monster entry (its antennae of all things). So RAW monkeys do not have prehensile tails nor feet which may strike some as odd but that’s RAW. With such context I am inclined to agree that as per RAW there is nothing explicitly giving psicrystal feet the capability to manipulate objects.

As is the case with the monkey the GM could make a ruling, a house rule or other clarification (no, these are a different kind of monkey that do have prehensile tails and feet) but doing so is an expression of the GM’s opinion.

In the absence of details about the flap a bare bones interpretation produced a scenario where the psicrystal could only move it by manipulating (an act requiring prehensile feet that it is not explicitly detailed with) rather than simply pushing. For such a case I see no conclusion beyond that of the GM being permissive if a psicrystal can manipulate stuff with its feet. As a GM it is well within their right, but it is a departure from true RAW and thus open to debate and commentary on its validity.

In the OP's scenario the psicrystal is simply pushing the bar 1ft with its body that is propelled by its legs. Like a dog pushing something with its head.

You are correct that the rules say to take animal limbs into consideration. I think i remember something about wolves being incapable of climbing trees mentioned somewhere in the DMG. But all this is moot because any creature that can propel itself forward can push something while its propelling forward.

[Xervous]

In the OP's scenario the psicrystal is simply pushing the bar 1ft with its body that is propelled by its legs. Like a dog pushing something with its head.

You are correct that the rules say to take animal limbs into consideration. I think i remember something about wolves being incapable of climbing trees mentioned somewhere in the DMG. But all this is moot because any creature that can propel itself forward can push something while its propelling forward.

It is far from moot when the original exchange hinged upon the flap being operated by the psicrystal and the interior bar preventing the flap from moving, a situation which at its simplest leaves no option outside the psicrystal pulling on a presumed flat surface with prehensile appendages it lacks.

[gogogome]

Regarding the climb speed, Psyren is correct that a climb speed does not grant "stickiness".


Climb

A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC of more than 0, but it always can choose to take 10 even if rushed or threatened while climbing. The creature climbs at the given speed while climbing. If it chooses an accelerated climb it moves at double the given climb speed (or its base land speed, whichever is lower) and makes a single Climb check at a -5 penalty. Creatures cannot run while climbing. A creature retains its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) while climbing, and opponents get no special bonus on their attacks against a climbing creature.


20 An uneven surface with some narrow handholds and footholds, such as a typical wall in a dungeon or ruins.

Psicrystals can take 10, have a +8 bonus for having the climb speed, and their 15 dex gives a +2 so a Psicrystal can hit a DC20 Climb check. And the Psion can create these narrow handholds and footholds while manifesting Minor Creation. It's definitely lower than DC20 since making handholds in a wall is easier than making a lock. I'd make the whole box at most DC15 because I don't see how it's more complicated than making a Bell.

Segev's box design is probably DC20. A latch is no different than a lock, nor is making perfectly fitting doors and walls.

[Draconi Redfir]

nah nah, the psicrystal isn't operating the flap at all. that's the psion's job. the psycristal is just pushing the bar that seals the flap closed back and forth.

think something like this.

https://i.imgur.com/l2zXumR.jpg

if this were the latch (It's not, but pretend it is for a second) all the crystal would be doing is rubbing it's body up against that little ball there and pushing it forwards with it's body. presumably either moving or having some system in place that lets it do it the other direction in a similar way.

[Xervous]

nah nah, the psicrystal isn't operating the flap at all. that's the psion's job. the psycristal is just pushing the bar that seals the flap closed back and forth.

think something like this.

https://i.imgur.com/l2zXumR.jpg

if this were the latch (It's not, but pretend it is for a second) all the crystal would be doing is rubbing it's body up against that little ball there and pushing it forwards with it's body. presumably either moving or having some system in place that lets it do it the other direction in a similar way.

In the current proposition this is true. Clarifications arrived to differentiate the actual evolving design from the flawed original presentation yet people are seizing on early comments that were simply pointing out how the box’s design was flawed and doing so in a manner that caused them to take offense for some reason. Psicrystal on flap moved to psicrystal pushing and pulling the bar. From there it arrived at the psicrystal only pushing while people attacked Psyren for prior comments that were relevant during earlier evolutions of the box but were not applicable to the latest box design. It’s not unlike presenting a box on wheels, calling it a car, someone pointing out it’s not powered, adding in propulsion and saying the previous comment has always been false.

[Draconi Redfir]

ah, well alright then.

[magicalmagicman]

In the current proposition this is true. Clarifications arrived to differentiate the actual evolving design from the flawed original presentation yet people are seizing on early comments that were simply pointing out how the box’s design was flawed and doing so in a manner that caused them to take offense for some reason. Psicrystal on flap moved to psicrystal pushing and pulling the bar. From there it arrived at the psicrystal only pushing while people attacked Psyren for prior comments that were relevant during earlier evolutions of the box but were not applicable to the latest box design. It’s not unlike presenting a box on wheels, calling it a car, someone pointing out it’s not powered, adding in propulsion and saying the previous comment has always been false.

You're misunderstanding something here.


So if we take this thread as an example, when Psyren said Psicrystals cannot push objects, he's not saying it doesn't work within the rules, he's saying in his vision of D&D Psicrystals cannot manipulate objects so he will never allow Psicrystals to manipulate objects in his game regardless of what the rules say. But he doesn't say that. He just says Psicrystals cannot manipulate objects and when presented with RAW from multiple posters his responses go back to "convince gm of this or that" without ever addressing the RAW, or presenting RAW of his own. Which resulted in newguydude1 losing his composure in this thread and in others.

Psyren is maintaining his position that Psicrystals cannot push objects. So he is rejecting the latest box design. And his reasoning for his disagreement is a mystery because when asked, he responds by changing the topic to convincing GMs and how no one should try to convince him.

So our guess is that he's flagrantly ignoring the rules at his table, is not interested in partaking in a discussion about the rules, but for some reason calls the OP out as doing something illegal. Who knows why. So our contention is that if he is flagrantly ignoring the rules when he says the OP is doing something illegal, he should say so upfront so we don't mistake his irrelevant comments as a discussion about how the rules work.

[Xervous]

You're misunderstanding something here.



Psyren is maintaining his position that Psicrystals cannot push objects. So he is rejecting the latest box design. And his reasoning for his disagreement is a mystery because when asked, he responds by changing the topic to convincing GMs and how no one should try to convince him.

So our guess is that he's flagrantly ignoring the rules at his table, is not interested in partaking in a discussion about the rules, but for some reason calls the OP out as doing something illegal. Who knows why. So our contention is that if he is flagrantly ignoring the rules when he says the OP is doing something illegal, he should say so upfront so we don't mistake his irrelevant comments as a discussion about how the rules work.

I’m understanding things perfectly fine here and won’t stand for you misrepresenting my words if things follow the given trend. At no point do I see an outright claim that the pushing is invalid. This whole thing rides on the faulty assumption that all comments must be explicitly labeled as such else they are read as strictest statement of RAW. It is common to ask the GM for guidance on uncertain situations as they are the absolute arbitrator of events. I see comments amounting to the situation being something of concern (as evidenced by the OP turning to the playground for a discussion) and a clarifying note that if there is uncertainty over the box’s functionality it is up to the GM to resolve it.

[sorcererlover]

At no point do I see an outright claim that the pushing is invalid.


pushing is pushing the bar <----- so it no longer covers the flap so i can lift it myself (it only opens inwards otherwise bar would be pointless), and the pushing it back ------> so it covers the flap.

pushing bar is probably best route so i can use 5 x 2.5 = 12.5lb bar.

I still don't buy it but once again, I'm not your GM, so I'll leave it there.

1234567890

[Xervous]

Looks to me like “wouldn’t fly at my table, go ask your GM”. Fault is on you for adding meaning that isn’t there.

[sorcererlover]

Looks to me like “wouldn’t fly at my table, go ask your GM”. Fault is on you for adding meaning that isn’t there.

Moving goalposts now?

First you say it's wrong to berate someone about past comments that he change his mind about.
Then you say he never said psicrystals can't push and took offense when someone told you that you misunderstood.
Now you're saying it's our fault for adding meaning that's not there?

Can we at least agree that you were wrong twice and you misunderstood everything twice?

[Segev]

Can we at least agree that you were wrong twice and you misunderstood everything twice?

I think browbeating people for mea culpas when they're expressing agreement is counterproductive.

We should be focused on helping the OP, not on already-solved problems in our communication. We know where people stand, at this stage, so the OP can judge clearly based on who's speaking what their pedigree is. If nothing else, since the OP wants pure-RAW rulings, we can safely suggest he disregard comments that are not backed up by a quote from the RAW, or a clear reference thereto.

[sorcererlover]

I think browbeating people for mea culpas when they're expressing agreement is counterproductive.

We should be focused on helping the OP, not on already-solved problems in our communication. We know where people stand, at this stage, so the OP can judge clearly based on who's speaking what their pedigree is. If nothing else, since the OP wants pure-RAW rulings, we can safely suggest he disregard comments that are not backed up by a quote from the RAW, or a clear reference thereto.

I agree. And I apologize for any thread derailment because of this. I will drop the subject and get back to the box!

[Xervous]

Moving goalposts now?

First you say it's wrong to berate someone about past comments that he change his mind about.
Then you say he never said psicrystals can't push and took offense when someone told you that you misunderstood.
Now you're saying it's our fault for adding meaning that's not there?

Can we at least agree that you were wrong twice and you misunderstood everything twice?

Addressing points in order.

Firstly my initial observations were of the response to the “manipulation” segment wherein strong doubt is cast upon a GM allowing a psicrystal to manipulate objects with its decidedly non-prehensile feet and the misplaced backlash. This portion has been unchanged throughout and appears to be the sparking off point of the bad feelings.

Was it stated outright as “no, psicrystals can’t push”? Most decidedly not. It was colored as a gray area to emphasize that the exact functionality in the matter is up to the gm when peculiar propositions like pull-capable legs had been brought to the table.

If there was precedent on this forum for all comments to default to purest RAW in absence of explicit callouts that what follows is opinion then my expectations would be misplaced on the nature of discourse here (the forum as a whole). Operating under such a nonstandard assumption (all words as RAW, breach of RAW is reprehensible) has led to polite suggestions the OP explore the established uncertainty resolution mechanics being met with unusual hostility.


As for the matter of the box I am still concerned how the flap’s break DC is ruled.

Standard wooden door, craftsmanship >> material for adjusting DC but no explicit rules on that. DC 13 for medium door, but no scaling factors for size. If the GM rules that the DC scales by +-4 for increasing/decreasing sizes that would make it a trivial DC 1!! Rule that DC does not change with size and you get Gargantuan wooden doors being DC 13. Pick a number because reasons. All avenues to determine the flap break DC must go through the GM and are not resolvable by pure RAW. (And lets look at the bar too while we’re at it).

[sorcererlover]

As for the matter of the box I am still concerned how the flap’s break DC is ruled.

Standard wooden door, craftsmanship >> material for adjusting DC but no explicit rules on that. DC 13 for medium door, but no scaling factors for size. If the GM rules that the DC scales by +-4 for increasing/decreasing sizes that would make it a trivial DC 1!! Rule that DC does not change with size and you get Gargantuan wooden doors being DC 13. Pick a number because reasons. All avenues to determine the flap break DC must go through the GM and are not resolvable by pure RAW. (And lets look at the bar too while we’re at it).

The flap or door is made of bronzewood. Bronzewood is actually as tough as metal but lighter (arms and equipment guide). According to this https://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm
the break dc of a 2inch iron door is 28.

Now if we look at this

Barred Doors

When characters try to bash down a barred door, it’s the quality of the bar that matters, not the material the door is made of. It takes a DC 25 Strength check to break through a door with a wooden bar, and a DC 30 Strength check if the bar is made of iron. Characters can attack the door and destroy it instead, leaving the bar hanging in the now-open doorway.

DC30 Strength check to break down an iron (bronzewood) barred door. So whether the break DC is 28 or 30 is dependent on whether the enemies are trying to break the door or the bar.

I don't think size of door matters for break DC of a barred door. A longer bar does not make it tougher to break. In fact a shorter bar is much stronger than a longer bar.

So that's where I'd land on the break DC. DC 28 or 30. The HP of the door is the same as the HP of the entire wall because HP is dependent on thickness, not surface area so there's no reason to try and smash a door when you can just smash the wall.

[Xervous]

I don’t recall a craft DC being called out for the box and/or whether or not it qualifies as a complex object. With a sufficiently high craft check there may be grounds for it qualifying as a higher degree of craftsmanship for which there is precedent to adjust the break DC upwards. If every door regardless of size gets the listed values this probably isn’t necessary.